How would you improve the Champion fighter?

[Steampunkette]

The Champion is a "Neat" kit, it's very simple to play which is great for newbies, but it doesn't really compare to the Battlemaster's Damage output and options or the Eldritch Knight's ability to defend or destroy.

So how can we retain the simplicity of the Champion Fighter while bringing them up in overall damage?

The main damage increasing function of the Champion Fighter is their ability to dish out Critical Hits twice as often, and eventually three times as often, as other characters. But thanks to the flat progression of dice mechanics, that only breaks out to 5% and 10% more often dealing double the dice but not the modifiers.

So what can we give them to improve their capabilities? Well. If you look at the Battlemaster, they get a Ribbon at 3 in addition to their core ability and an improvement of their core ability at 7 along with another ribbon.

Where are the Champion's Ribbons? They get a Ribbonesque ability at 7 and a very limited jack of all trades... so what if we shifted things around a bit.

Let's give the Champion the "Half Bonus to Checks" at level 3 as not quite a ribbon but also not quite a real ability. That could help shore up the disparity in combat/exploration the Champion and the Battlemaster have.

Then, at 7, let's give them the bigger jumps (adding str mod to long jumps) ribbon and something more meaty... How about Con Mod added onto Critical Hit Damage? It's something no other class gets which is nice, but when you think about it you're only altering 1 or 2 attacks a day on average. Meanwhile other classes have some pretty fantastic damage increases when they crit. Like Brutal Critical or Smiting on a Crit.

Maybe we should give them a higher baseline damage that doesn't improve based on their crits? How about Proficiency modifier? Well, that kind of works some. But when they get to 4 attacks per round all day every day with +6 to each of them... it could get to be a bit much.

How about Proficiency Bonus or Con Mod to damage when the Champion has Advantage on attacks? I kind of like that one, as it provides a solid improvement but requires certain mechanic be in play not unlike a Rogue's Sneak Attack...

[mgshamster]

Personal quick fixes for me:

Increase the rate at which Critical improves, eventually reaching 16+ for crits.

Change superior athlete so it affects things you're proficient in and includes saves.

[Desamir]

Personal quick fixes for me:

Increase the rate at which Critical improves, eventually reaching 16+ for crits.

I like this because it's simple and exciting.

My two criteria for changing the champion are:


Don't make it so good that it becomes mandatory. Let it deal better damage than its sister subclasses, but not so much that it utterly outstrips them.
No conditional bonuses. The champion is intentionally simple to play; It's aimed at people who just want to swing a weapon around. No bonuses that change round-to-round (which is why I'm opposed to the extra-damage-while-advantage idea). Players who want more complexity can pick up feats.

[gfishfunk]

Add weapon specialization as a core feature. + 1 / 2 to hit, + 1 / 2 to damage. It is a traditional feature and keeps it simple. It fits the Champion style.

[Steampunkette]

Ooo... Weapon Specialization works nicely...

Give them a Weapon Spec at 7 and then another later, or just the one?

[mgshamster]

I like this because it's simple and exciting.

Thanks. I would do the improvements at the same rate as the EK gains new spell levels.

3: 19-20
7: 18-20
13: 17-20
19: 16-20

But if that's too powerful, then maybe:
3: 19-20
7: 18-20
15: 17-20

[Aett_Thorn]

For me, a couple of potential changes include:

1) Allow them to use either Strength or Dex as their attack/damage modifier for any weapon they are using? Switching from a greatsword to a long bow? Can use the same stat for both.

2) Grant them expertise in either Acrobatics or Athletics (maybe both?)

3) Perhaps a free feat related to their primary fighting style that they chose at level 1? I know that there are some balance issues with Sharpshooter and Great Weapon Master, but since this damage doesn't get doubled on a crit, I don't know how much it would affect the Champion (and these feats are out there to be taken by anyone now anyways).

Archery: Sharpshooter
Defense: Heavy Armor Mastery
Dueling: ??
Great Weapon Fighting: Great Weapon Master
Protection: Shield Mastery
Two-Weapon Fighting: Dual Wielder

[Sigreid]

When they get theit crit increase it would be cool if the new crit range overcame all resistances and immunities for a perfect deadly strike.

[gfishfunk]

Ooo... Weapon Specialization works nicely...

Give them a Weapon Spec at 7 and then another later, or just the one?

Level 7 is fine. If it's too early, it can be a mandatory Barbarian dip.

I was thinking at level 7 gain either: 1. a +1 attack or damage bonus to two different weapons, or 2. a +1 attack and damage to one weapon.

At level (say) 14, that bonus is +2 instead.

[bid]

Give them another action surge at level 7. That's enough to match BM while keeping the flavor.

[gfishfunk]

Give them another action surge at level 7. That's enough to match BM while keeping the flavor.

Also simple and elegant.

[Cybren]

Ooo... Weapon Specialization works nicely...

Give them a Weapon Spec at 7 and then another later, or just the one?

I think specialization is at odds with the fundamental design goal of the champion.

I also think the champion is fine.

[Misterwhisper]

The Champion is a "Neat" kit, it's very simple to play which is great for newbies, but it doesn't really compare to the Battlemaster's Damage output and options or the Eldritch Knight's ability to defend or destroy.

So how can we retain the simplicity of the Champion Fighter while bringing them up in overall damage?

The main damage increasing function of the Champion Fighter is their ability to dish out Critical Hits twice as often, and eventually three times as often, as other characters. But thanks to the flat progression of dice mechanics, that only breaks out to 5% and 10% more often dealing double the dice but not the modifiers.

So what can we give them to improve their capabilities? Well. If you look at the Battlemaster, they get a Ribbon at 3 in addition to their core ability and an improvement of their core ability at 7 along with another ribbon.

Where are the Champion's Ribbons? They get a Ribbonesque ability at 7 and a very limited jack of all trades... so what if we shifted things around a bit.

Let's give the Champion the "Half Bonus to Checks" at level 3 as not quite a ribbon but also not quite a real ability. That could help shore up the disparity in combat/exploration the Champion and the Battlemaster have.

Then, at 7, let's give them the bigger jumps (adding str mod to long jumps) ribbon and something more meaty... How about Con Mod added onto Critical Hit Damage? It's something no other class gets which is nice, but when you think about it you're only altering 1 or 2 attacks a day on average. Meanwhile other classes have some pretty fantastic damage increases when they crit. Like Brutal Critical or Smiting on a Crit.

Maybe we should give them a higher baseline damage that doesn't improve based on their crits? How about Proficiency modifier? Well, that kind of works some. But when they get to 4 attacks per round all day every day with +6 to each of them... it could get to be a bit much.

How about Proficiency Bonus or Con Mod to damage when the Champion has Advantage on attacks? I kind of like that one, as it provides a solid improvement but requires certain mechanic be in play not unlike a Rogue's Sneak Attack...


I see the champion as the number 1 guy when it comes to skill at fighting with weapons, so I think it should translate into better defense as well.

Champion at Arms: You may add 1/2 your proficiency bonus (round up) to your AC when facing attacks made by weapons.

[Specter]

I would add Remarkable Athlete to all the skills you're already proficient in as well. That's it.

[MeeposFire]

My most popular and significant change is to change remarkable athlete so you get expertise in one skill of your choice that remarkable athlete would otherwise affect (so you are now generally athletic but if you were already good at one thing you can now be really good at it). IN addition and more importantly the ability allows to ignore size restrictions on grapples, shoves, and other physical attacks at a penalty for every size larger than you could normally affect.

[Steampunkette]

My most popular and significant change is to change remarkable athlete so you get expertise in one skill of your choice that remarkable athlete would otherwise affect (so you are now generally athletic but if you were already good at one thing you can now be really good at it). IN addition and more importantly the ability allows to ignore size restrictions on grapples, shoves, and other physical attacks at a penalty for every size larger than you could normally affect.

... oh I love that...

[Specter]

You know, better what, I'd change Remarkable Athlete around to be similar to Royal Envoy from PDK:

At 7th level, you gain proficiency in the Athletics skill. If you're already proficient in it, you can choose either Acrobatics or Stealth and gain proficiency in it.
You double your proficiency bonus on any Athletics check you make.

[Sigreid]

... IN addition and more importantly the ability allows to ignore size restrictions on grapples, shoves, and other physical attacks at a penalty for every size larger than you could normally affect.

Funny you should mention that. I've been considering recently having things like Gauntlets of Ogre Power and Belts of Giant Str. let a character apply their strength as if they were the size category of the creature as well. So you could wrestle, carry, and lift as if you were large, huge, whatever. Just to make it feel more old myth heroic.

[SaintRidley]

I don't mind the Champion the way it is. If I had to do anything, I'd let Remarkable Athlete add to already proficient skills and all physical saves. And maybe let it add to AC. That last one would require some number crunching, though.

[djreynolds]

An idea I had proposed was that new fighting style can be used with all weapons or a cool combo.

If you took GWS at 1, now when you take archery at 10th, you reroll 1s&2s with your bow as well.

If you took TWF and then protection, you can use your offhand weapon instead of a shield.

If you took defense and then protection, when you use protection you also throw in +1 to your buddy's AC.

[MeeposFire]

An idea I had proposed was that new fighting style can be used with all weapons or a cool combo.

If you took GWS at 1, now when you take archery at 10th, you reroll 1s&2s with your bow as well.

If you took TWF and then protection, you can use your offhand weapon instead of a shield.

If you took defense and then protection, when you use protection you also throw in +1 to your buddy's AC.

I had that as the level 10 (essentially) ability but a number of people were not into that thinking it too powerful.

The only thing that drove people more nuts was the ability to use other ability scores with their weapons (such as using str while using a ranged weapon).

[BigONotation]

Give them 4e fighter abilities that recharge on a short or long rest. It let them spend hit die to recreate spell effects like Jump, Expeditious Retreat, Enhance Ability, etc. They should be the Champion of Something.

[Deleted]

The Champion is a "Neat" kit, it's very simple to play which is great for newbies, but it doesn't really compare to the Battlemaster's Damage output and options or the Eldritch Knight's ability to defend or destroy.

So how can we retain the simplicity of the Champion Fighter while bringing them up in overall damage?

The main damage increasing function of the Champion Fighter is their ability to dish out Critical Hits twice as often, and eventually three times as often, as other characters. But thanks to the flat progression of dice mechanics, that only breaks out to 5% and 10% more often dealing double the dice but not the modifiers.

So what can we give them to improve their capabilities? Well. If you look at the Battlemaster, they get a Ribbon at 3 in addition to their core ability and an improvement of their core ability at 7 along with another ribbon.

Where are the Champion's Ribbons? They get a Ribbonesque ability at 7 and a very limited jack of all trades... so what if we shifted things around a bit.

Let's give the Champion the "Half Bonus to Checks" at level 3 as not quite a ribbon but also not quite a real ability. That could help shore up the disparity in combat/exploration the Champion and the Battlemaster have.

Then, at 7, let's give them the bigger jumps (adding str mod to long jumps) ribbon and something more meaty... How about Con Mod added onto Critical Hit Damage? It's something no other class gets which is nice, but when you think about it you're only altering 1 or 2 attacks a day on average. Meanwhile other classes have some pretty fantastic damage increases when they crit. Like Brutal Critical or Smiting on a Crit.

Maybe we should give them a higher baseline damage that doesn't improve based on their crits? How about Proficiency modifier? Well, that kind of works some. But when they get to 4 attacks per round all day every day with +6 to each of them... it could get to be a bit much.

How about Proficiency Bonus or Con Mod to damage when the Champion has Advantage on attacks? I kind of like that one, as it provides a solid improvement but requires certain mechanic be in play not unlike a Rogue's Sneak Attack...

The reactive fighter in my link gives the fighter options that the champion can have.

The fighter, for me, doesn't need to have ToB/4e level of awesome sauce to be a good class... It just needs options and be more than "I move and attack".

[Sigreid]

Give them 4e fighter abilities that recharge on a short or long rest. It let them spend hit die to recreate spell effects like Jump, Expeditious Retreat, Enhance Ability, etc. They should be the Champion of Something.

I'm not interested in the Champion becoming a watered down EK.

[Deleted]

I'm not interested in the Champion becoming a watered down EK.

So, you don't want the champion to exist?

Because, for the most part, that's what the champion will always be.

[Foxhound438]

my big issue with champion is that most of the time it does jack s***.

My fix would be to add a 1/turn damage boost, similar to colossus slayer- an extra d6 on a hit once per turn (replacing improved crits) would be fine to me, and 2d6 instead when the PHB champion would get superior crits. This would of course be a bigger damage boost than the average battlemaster (arguably), but offer none of the battlemaster utility. The end result would be that there's a gradient among fighters between highest damage (champ) to highest utility (EK) with battlemaster being more or less the middle ground of the two.

[TripleD]

I'd like it if Remarkable Athlete actually made you feel like a remarkable athlete.

Something like:

During a short rest, trade one hit die to remove one level of exhaustion
Full speed for climbing and swimming
Speed bonus (10ft)
Double jump distance


Obviously all these together would be too powerful, but something along those lines.

[FinnS]

My suggestion would simply be to allow the Champion to work like the Defender property.
At the beginning of each of their turns they decide how much of their Prof bonus they use for attacking and/or for their AC.

[Jerrykhor]

I'd like it if Remarkable Athlete actually made you feel like a remarkable athlete.

Something like:

During a short rest, trade one hit die to remove one level of exhaustion
Full speed for climbing and swimming
Speed bonus (10ft)
Double jump distance


Obviously all these together would be too powerful, but something along those lines.

Nah it won't be too powerful. How often do they need to do those stuff listed anyway? Maybe put the speed bonus at +5ft, that would be all. But yes, this is the most pathetic capstone in all of 5e, and if anything needs to be fixed, its this.

[Sirithhyando]

I would add Remarkable Athlete to all the skills you're already proficient in as well. That's it.

That would fix the only thing i'm annoyed with the champion fighter. The one i'm playing is already proficient in all the one remarkable athlete would add half proficiency. The level where you get this is useless in my opinion.

[mgshamster]

That would fix the only thing i'm annoyed with the champion fighter. The one i'm playing is already proficient in all the one remarkable athlete would add half proficiency. The level where you get this is useless in my opinion.

Don't forget it applies to initiative (one of the dex checks you can't get proficiency in). And any physical ability check not associated with skills.

But yeah, that's also my fix. Make it apply regardless of proficiency.

[Spookykid]

My suggestion would simply be to allow the Champion to work like the Defender property.
At the beginning of each of their turns they decide how much of their Prof bonus they use for attacking and/or for their AC.

hell yea, thats somehting that would rock!

[Sigreid]

So, you don't want the champion to exist?

Because, for the most part, that's what the champion will always be.

Champion has no more in common with EK than BM. Or than BM has with Ek.

[jaappleton]

IMO the Champion is actually fine. Its just boring. It makes for a spectacular "Its my first time playing tabletop, let me dip my toe in the water" character.

But it is bland.

However, it also has almost zero resource management. You still can expect Action Surge and Second Wind, as every base Fighter, but that's about all. It never runs out of its abilities.

In my eyes, the best build for a Champion Fighter is a Half-Orc with TWF or PAM. You need a bonus action attack, and no race crits like a Half-Orc.

Its simply boring is the issue. It gets no nova, it gets no real defensive features, nothing, really. I think that's the issue people have; They can't really do anything with it to push the envelope.

[Deleted]

Champion has no more in common with EK than BM. Or than BM has with Ek.

Except the champion is a eatered down version 9f both.

Champion = Move and attack
BM = Move amd attack with minor effects that don't grow
EK = Move and attack with low level magic that grows a little. Can be built to no just be move and attack, but thats still what is best taken from the class.

The champion is a very watered down BM/EK.

[Cybren]

Except the champion is a eatered down version 9f both.

Champion = Move and attack
BM = Move amd attack with minor effects that don't grow
EK = Move and attack with low level magic that grows a little. Can be built to no just be move and attack, but thats still what is best taken from the class.

The champion is a very watered down BM/EK.
You very clearly don't understand the design goals behind the champion

[Sigreid]

You very clearly don't understand the design goals behind the champion

Deleted has made it clear he understands the design goals but thinks they have consistently made bad choices. The base is too big and originated in too many editions to expect everyone to be satisfied.

I'm pretty satisfied with everything as is though.

[gfishfunk]

You very clearly don't understand the design goals behind the champion


Deleted has made it clear he understands the design goals but thinks they have consistently made bad choices. The base is too big and originated in too many editions to expect everyone to be satisfied.

Though Deleted and I disagree a lot, he understands the design.

Every now and then I marvel at how seriously we all take this.

[Cybren]

Deleted has made it clear he understands the design goals but thinks they have consistently made bad choices. The base is too big and originated in too many editions to expect everyone to be satisfied.

I'm pretty satisfied with everything as is though.

If deleted thinks the design goals behind the champion were bad, then he didn't understand them. It's okay that you don't want to play every class. Not every class is for you.

[Deleted]

If deleted thinks the design goals behind the champion were bad, then he didn't understand them. It's okay that you don't want to play every class. Not every class is for you.

Easy to use, which was the design goals, doesn't have to mean "no options", "no growth", or "bad class features" (remarkable athlete is terrible).

I love simple classes from time to time, but that doesn't mean I have to like bad classes.


Edit===

The only thing remarkable athelete has going for it is the boost to initiative which I'll counter with everyone's favorite line "but the Fighter gets bonus feats". So the fighter (champion) could just boost their initiative that way intead of relying on a +1, +2, and finally a +3 bonus to initiative.

ALso, my favorite arcane caster class is the Sorcerer. It isn't the most well designed of classes, actually it is on the low end of "good design". But I like it because even with the less than stellar design, it has options and can be made to be simple or complex with minimal effort. It also doesn't actively get screwed by itself.

[Sigreid]

I never cease to be amazed at how throughly I disagree with you on what the game should be Deleted.

[D-naras]

I'd give them the following at level 7:

Weapon Specialization: You can spend 1 hour practicing with a weapon, that you can do as part of a short rest, to gain the following benefits when using that weapon:

Gain +1 on attacks with the weapon.
Add half your proficiency bonus to damage rolls with the weapon. This increases to your proficiency bonus on critical hits.
When you wield the weapon, you can spend your Reaction to add half your proficiency bonus to your AC when attacked.


It's simple, it's strong and it gives an extra option to players that managed to reach level 7 and therefore feel more comfortable with the mechanics of the game.

[2D8HP]

I like the simplicity of the Champion, and when I want to add complexity and options I multi-class as Rogue (and less often as Barbarian). I pretty much like the class as is, but if I was going to change something I'd grant an additional Fighting Style earlier, otherwise the extra abilities of Battlemaster and the spell casting classes just seem like a just reward for dealing with the minutiae, but if a DM wants to let me have both the Archery and Defense Fighting Style's earlier, I won't say no!

[Cybren]

ALso, my favorite arcane caster class is the Sorcerer. It isn't the most well designed of classes, actually it is on the low end of "good design". But I like it because even with the less than stellar design, it has options and can be made to be simple or complex with minimal effort. It also doesn't actively get screwed by itself.

Translation: you are an entrenched player with high rules knowledge that enjoys optimization.

You are not the only kind of person that plays D&D


I like the simplicity of the Champion, and when I want to add complexity and options I multi-class as Rogue (and less often as Barbarian). I pretty much like the class as is, but if I was going to change something I'd grant an additional Fighting Style earlier, otherwise the extra abilities of Battlemaster and the spell casting classes just seem like a just reward for dealing with the minutiae, but if a DM wants to let me have both the Archery and Defense Fighting Style's earlier, I won't say no!

Case in point

I'd give them the following at level 7:

Weapon Specialization: You can spend 1 hour practicing with a weapon, that you can do as part of a short rest, to gain the following benefits when using that weapon:

Gain +1 on attacks with the weapon.
Add half your proficiency bonus to damage rolls with the weapon. This increases to your proficiency bonus on critical hits.
When you wield the weapon, you can spend your Reaction to add half your proficiency bonus to your AC when attacked.


It's simple, it's strong and it gives an extra option to players that managed to reach level 7 and therefore feel more comfortable with the mechanics of the game.
If you wanted to keep that simple I'd just have it grant +1d4/+1d6/+1d8 damage on a hit with the weapon so you don't have to remember this one specific instance where you'd double anything other than a damage die on a crit

[SharkForce]

Don't forget it applies to initiative (one of the dex checks you can't get proficiency in). And any physical ability check not associated with skills.

But yeah, that's also my fix. Make it apply regardless of proficiency.

it also applies to escaping webs, breaking down doors (which is not an athletics check, but a simple strength check), moving heavy objects, and a few other things.

[Deleted]

Translation: you are an entrenched player with high rules knowledge that enjoys optimization.

You are not the only kind of person that plays D&D



Case in point

If you wanted to keep that simple I'd just have it grant +1d4/+1d6/+1d8 damage on a hit with the weapon so you don't have to remember this one specific instance where you'd double anything other than a damage die on a crit

Actually no, I don't optimize all that much.

But wanting good base options so I don't have to optimize in the first place doesn't stop the options giving to the champion (or fighter in general) from being crap.

I would love to be able to pick up a martial and not hold a party back. The fact that I have to optimize so I don't force others to optimize or fill in for my character, because my class allows me to do only one thing, isn't my fault.

I love how all the design flaws in 3e, for the fighter and other low tier characters, are there but now its ok because D&D?

The fighter class is tier 4, tier 4 wasnt ok in 3e and it isn't ok in 5e.

Edit

Also, giving all classes good options doesn't stop you from having a simple character that does one thing.

The defense I hear a lot is "but ppl want a simple fighter", well, giving bad options isnt the only way to make a simple fighter.

[Cybren]

The idea that class tiers apply to 5e sounds extremely suspect

[Deleted]

The idea that class tiers apply to 5e sounds extremely suspect

Do they not?

The fighter class gives you the ability to do one thing really well (or a bunch of things mediocre). Even the EK doesnt break out of tier 4 due to not having enough spells.

The cleric, bard, and wizards can do multiple things really well without being held back. These classes can easily break the game without much trying. T2

The rogue is good at a few things but dont have the sheer power that casters have. T3

[WereRabbitz]

2 Changes:

Remarkable Athelete: 3x per day you can choose to take Advantage

New ability: Gladiator's Boon
When you miss you get +1 to all attacks until the end of your next round
When you are hit you gain +1 to AC until the end of your next round.
Scales as you level up and get more attacks.

[Cybren]

Do they not?

The fighter class gives you the ability to do one thing really well (or a bunch of things mediocre). Even the EK doesnt break out of tier 4 due to not having enough spells.

The cleric, bard, and wizards can do multiple things really well without being held back. These classes can easily break the game without much trying. T2

The rogue is good at a few things but dont have the sheer power that casters have. T3

That doesn't demonstrate any effect of what that has in play, whereas in 3.5 there were concrete examples of how and why each tier was better than the others.

[Friv]

My own Champion fix mostly doesn't increase damage; instead, it keeps the "unstoppable champion" idea along with the "simple math" idea going.

*) Whenever you gain a Critical increase, you also add an extra proficient Save of your choice.
*) Remarkable Athlete applies its bonus to all Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution checks, as an Expertise bonus.

The offensive ability of the class doesn't go up much, but it's a bump to your skills and makes you harder to stop with non-smashing effects.

[Specter]

That doesn't demonstrate any effect of what that has in play, whereas in 3.5 there were concrete examples of how and why each tier was better than the others.

Yeah, there's still no consensus on tiers in 5e, and if that was a thing no more than 3 tiers would be needed.

[dejarnjc]

As someone else suggested I think expanding the crit range at different levels so that the the DPR math is more equitable for the Champion is the simplest solution.

Also as someone else mentioned, granting an additional usage of action surge though with the stipulation that no more than one use can be used per turn so you avoid ridiculous 10-13 attacks a turn scenarios.

[Sigreid]

I'll admit that I wouldnt complain if survivor was moved to a lower level so you could enjoy it longer. But it is powerful.

[Deleted]

That doesn't demonstrate any effect of what that has in play, whereas in 3.5 there were concrete examples of how and why each tier was better than the others.

Well, just because you don't want there to be tiers doesnt mean they don't exist.

The biggest problem with the champion is two folds.

It takes the design of the 3e fighter. Not simplicity. Not multi attacks (cause most people will ever see 2 attacks). In order to make your character do pretty much anything, you have to rely on character choices (feats) or multiclassing.

The fighter really isnt out damaging other classes at level 5. Not by enough to make the lack of other options worth while.

The second problem, and why fighter fixes might be the number 1 5e class discussion topic, is this misconception that people who want options want the fighter to stand toe to toe with a 9th level casting wizard or cleric. Some people may, but not all of us. My reactive fighter doesn't exactly stand toe to toe with the casting classes.

The two classes that are almost perfect is the Rogue and Monk (which reminds me, the Kensei is the UA I actually liked). They can dish out damage, they have fluff, they have options, and they can be built for multiple different aspects of the game (4elements and assassin need to be fixed).

If you don't want to use something from those classes, you dont have to. Cunning Action is great, but nothing forces you to use it. Having options doesn't mean you can't have a simpler character, it just means that the people who want to do more than *move and hit* and the people who want to *move and hit* can pick up the same class and play it.

[thepsyker]

If I was going to change the Champion I would move the Lesser Jack of All Trades part of Remarkable Athlete to 3rd level and have it stack with Proficency, but not expertise. Then at 7th I would give expertise in the players choice of Athletics or Acrobatics and keep the jump bonus.

The additional expanded crit option does sound interesting though.

[Ziegander]

They should have two class features at every break point.

3rd level - Extra skill/tool proficiency. Improved Critical (19-20). Part of Improved Critical is also regain Second Wind on a critical hit.
7th level - Remarkable Athlete is vastly improved. Expertise in Athletics. Speed is not reduced while climbing or swimming. Land speed is improved by 5 feet. Half proficiency bonus is applied to all Strength/Dex/Con checks including ones that already include proficiency bonus. Improved Critical (18-20). Turn the Tide adds proficiency bonus to damage for 1 round after using Second Wind.
10th level - Additional Fighting Style as well as Leadership which comes with a keep and followers.
11th level - Improved Critical (17-20).
15th level - Rallying Wind restores the hit points rolled to all creatures within 30ft of you. Improved Critical (16-20).
18th level - Survivor as well as Gloryhound which gives advantage on all Charisma checks for 24 hours after defeating a creature with a Challenge of 18 or higher.

A champion physically as well as socially.

[Crgaston]

That would fix the only thing i'm annoyed with the champion fighter. The one i'm playing is already proficient in all the one remarkable athlete would add half proficiency. The level where you get this is useless in my opinion.

I concur. Remarkable Athlete blows, especially for dex fighters. Half proficiency bonus to ALL physical skills would be way less powerful than Jack of All Trades.

[Vogonjeltz]

The Champion is a "Neat" kit, it's very simple to play which is great for newbies, but it doesn't really compare to the Battlemaster's Damage output and options or the Eldritch Knight's ability to defend or destroy.

So how can we retain the simplicity of the Champion Fighter while bringing them up in overall damage?

It takes about 7 combat rounds per damage die for the Champion to exceed the Battlemaster's damage. Champions don't need improving, they already have the best sustained dpr in the game.

If it was made so good it exceeded the burst damage of other classes there would be no reason at all to be anything else.


Except the champion is a eatered down version 9f both.

Champion = Move and attack
BM = Move amd attack with minor effects that don't grow
EK = Move and attack with low level magic that grows a little. Can be built to no just be move and attack, but thats still what is best taken from the class.

The champion is a very watered down BM/EK.

Champion is more about enhanced natural ability. They do non-proficient physical ability checks better, they crit more, they can leap farther, have more fighting styles, and their durability is remarkably good.

Battlemasters are more about sussing out enemy weaknesses, applying rider effects that target those weaknesses and exploiting them.

Eldritch Knight is about mobility and augmenting melee combat with combat magic. There are several abjuration spells which, cast on a Wizard are of only middling value, but enhance a Fighter chassis substantially, and because a Fighter already has proficiency in Constitution saving throws they are extremely unlikely to ever lose them. Protection from Evil and Good, for example, is just crazy good on a Fighter, making them effectively unstoppable (charm/frighten/possession) vs undead.

I also find it interesting how discounted the EK's casting gets given that they have almost as much casting as a Warlock (11 slots per day, 13 spells known, 3 cantrips vs 5 slots per rest, 15 spells known, and 4 cantrips) while at the same time being substantially more melee effective. Moreover, the EK gets to select from the Wizard's list, which is substantially bigger than the Warlocks.

[Typhon]

They should have two class features at every break point.

3rd level - Extra skill/tool proficiency. Improved Critical (19-20). Part of Improved Critical is also regain Second Wind on a critical hit.
7th level - Remarkable Athlete is vastly improved. Expertise in Athletics. Speed is not reduced while climbing or swimming. Land speed is improved by 5 feet. Half proficiency bonus is applied to all Strength/Dex/Con checks including ones that already include proficiency bonus. Improved Critical (18-20). Turn the Tide adds proficiency bonus to damage for 1 round after using Second Wind.
10th level - Additional Fighting Style as well as Leadership which comes with a keep and followers.
11th level - Improved Critical (17-20).
15th level - Rallying Wind restores the hit points rolled to all creatures within 30ft of you. Improved Critical (16-20).
18th level - Survivor as well as Gloryhound which gives advantage on all Charisma checks for 24 hours after defeating a creature with a Challenge of 18 or higher.

A champion physically as well as socially.

Like the feel of most of it, but the last two don't feel like they fit. To me a champion would be the one to hold the line while others retreat. They are the one to stand the tide so others can reach safety. Charging against the darkness in defense of others, regardless of danger.

3rd level - I see medicine/healer's kit here just because a champion learns to heal and care for his own wounds and the wounds of others.
7th level - Keep the Remarkable Athlete changes. Change Turn the Tides to +fighter level damage for the round after second wind.
10th level - True Warrior, gain half proficiency to damage and AC.
11th level - Enduring Will, gain proficiency in wisdom saves.
15th level - Additional Second wind
18th level - Guardian at the Gate, DR = Proficiency

That is how I would change it up. But it might be considered a little broken. I think the Champion should deal just a hair more damage reliably than and additional +XdX. Plus his AC should see some kind of basic improvement as he levels outside of magical items.

[mgshamster]

Do they not?

The fighter class gives you the ability to do one thing really well (or a bunch of things mediocre). Even the EK doesnt break out of tier 4 due to not having enough spells.

The cleric, bard, and wizards can do multiple things really well without being held back. These classes can easily break the game without much trying. T2

The rogue is good at a few things but dont have the sheer power that casters have. T3

Back when 5e was new, a lot of people were trying to do tier analysis of 5e using the 3.X tier system. Some people even tried to come up with 5e's own unique tier system.

The general consensus to come out of it was all classes in 5e were tier 3. Some classes, like the beast Master or four elements monk might be a high functioning tier 4. Some classes, like the wizard, might be a low functioning tier 2. Debate on that was common. But for the most part, most tier analysts agreed that all classes were about tier 3.

However, that's not as relevant as the guidelines for tier based play. The recommendation that came with understanding tiers was that you wanted a 3 tier range of classes to be in a single for game. Tiers 6-4 were OK together. Tiers 3-1 were OK with each other.

So even if some classes dip down to tier 4 or up to tier 2, they're still within the tier range recommended by nearly all tier guides. A tier 4-2 range is perfectly playable and one of the most recommended tier ranges to play for D&D (with tiers 5-3 being the next most common recommended if you wanted a lower powered game).

[bid]

It takes about 7 combat rounds per damage die for the Champion to exceed the Battlemaster's damage. Champions don't need improving, they already have the best sustained dpr in the game.
It takes 20 attack rolls (10 after level level 15) to get an extra critical using champion's feature, for 7 extra damage when using a maul. So yes, it takes 7 combat rounds at level 11 to beat the BM maneuvers with side effects.

This does not hold true for commander's strike (rogue SA), precision attack and riposte. For instance, a single use of riposte would do 2d6+4/3+5+1d10 (18.8) if it hits. Assuming you need 14+ to hit (AC23 vs level 11), that single SD would add 7.2 extra damage.

This is why Champion 7 should get an extra action surge which adds 3 attacks for ~40 possible damage and mostly negates riposte's gains.


tl;dr Even against AC23 enemy, BM 11 using riposte still does more damage after 35 rounds, if barely.

[SharkForce]

Back when 5e was new, a lot of people were trying to do tier analysis of 5e using the 3.X tier system. Some people even tried to come up with 5e's own unique tier system.

The general consensus to come out of it was all classes in 5e were tier 3. Some classes, like the beast Master or four elements monk might be a high functioning tier 4. Some classes, like the wizard, might be a low functioning tier 2. Debate on that was common. But for the most part, most tier analysts agreed that all classes were about tier 3.

However, that's not as relevant as the guidelines for tier based play. The recommendation that came with understanding tiers was that you wanted a 3 tier range of classes to be in a single for game. Tiers 6-4 were OK together. Tiers 3-1 were OK with each other.

So even if some classes dip down to tier 4 or up to tier 2, they're still within the tier range recommended by nearly all tier guides. A tier 4-2 range is perfectly playable and one of the most recommended tier ranges to play for D&D (with tiers 5-3 being the next most common recommended if you wanted a lower powered game).

it is also worth noting some of the reasons why everything is so close together. for example:

- damage is now relevant. abilities that literally win encounters aren't all over the place, but there are a number of abilities that can end an encounter... IF you have damage-dealing characters to help. a wizard can hold monster a giant, and that's great, but it's going to break free soon and the wizard sure as heck doesn't have the resources to efficiently and quickly take it down. give that wizard a fighter and rogue friend, though, and that giant will be lucky to even get a second save. on a related note, HP is also more important as a result, which further helps classes like fighter and barbarian to remain relevant.

- skills are relevant, even without absurd levels of investment, and all skills are more or less available to everyone, and everyone gets enough skills to be useful.

- resources are much lower. the few times where a spell actually can (potentially) end an encounter, it's an exceptionally limited resource. furthermore, a new resource (concentration) frequently limits how many effects you can use at a time.

- bounded accuracy means that unlike in 3.x you will very rarely have an effect which the target has no meaningful defense against (though this can change with certain items, which should probably have never been made to work the way they do).

so, yeah... while i don't think that a fighter is as impactful of a character at higher levels as some other classes, it certainly isn't anything like 3.x where you brought a tier 4 into a group with a tier 1 and you might as well not exist if the tier 1 is being played remotely effectively. all classes are not exactly equal to each other, but they are all close enough that they can play together just fine.

[MeeposFire]

Also realize that one of the BIG problems in 3e was that fighters (and similar classes) could NOT move and attack effectively natively. Moving more than 5 feet robbed them of full attacks, the only edition where this is true and one major reason why you cannot apply how bad being a weapon user in 3e to other editions directly. The ability to move and attack effectively automatically makes 5e fighters more effective than a 3e one.

[Hawkstar]

I'd improve the Champion by focusing on combat styles. Replace the "Improved Critical" with the option to take another combat style, and expand the list of available styles as well (Making Improved Critical a combat style option). A few options to select while leveling, while keeping in-play benefits either passive or at-will.

Oh, and make Remarkable Athlete apply to proficient skills.

[djreynolds]

I had proposed that champions get the bonus to all physical skills regardless of proficiency. So at level 17, (assuming 20 in strength) you would have a +14 in athletics instead of a +11, but not +17 like a rogue/bard.

And this boost would also effect saves, assuming str/con proficiency for saves you would end up with +9 base at 17th, and dex would give you with half/proficiency +3 at 17th


But I think we often look at classes and archetypes in PvP or player versus player

How does the fighter stack versus the paladin? All these bonuses a paladin gets for saves and such, well the fighter gets them also. Just have to be within 10ft and then later on 30ft.

[skaddix]

Well I would agree fighter in general could scale better. But really isn't that usually the bane of the fighter. However yeah the Champion could get more tools and be just fine at higher levels because presumably the noob will have learned something when he reaches mid level.

Druids and Paladins easily do their stuff better and that gets worse at higher levels. Also not hard to build a Gish that can do it better as well. Some Clerics can even do it better.

Action Surge is the saving grace. That and low level campaigns if your a Battlemaster.

I say what cripples EK is of course spell selection but also only allowed to concentrate one thing at a time does them no favors.

[mr-mercer]

I frankly don't see any way to improve the champion: it's absolutely fine as it is.

[Zalabim]

my big issue with champion is that most of the time it does jack s***.

My fix would be to add a 1/turn damage boost, similar to colossus slayer- an extra d6 on a hit once per turn (replacing improved crits) would be fine to me, and 2d6 instead when the PHB champion would get superior crits. This would of course be a bigger damage boost than the average battlemaster (arguably), but offer none of the battlemaster utility. The end result would be that there's a gradient among fighters between highest damage (champ) to highest utility (EK) with battlemaster being more or less the middle ground of the two.
I also would use this power attack idea (I've suggested it before).

Thinking about ribbons and other things that people would like, I would offer that someone could actually expand it. Each round on your turn, you get 1d6 that you can roll and add to one weapon damage roll, attack roll, saving throw, or ability check that you make. If you want to split that up, I would make it Damage Rolls (3), Ability Checks (7), Attack Rolls (10), and Saving Throws (15). But I would keep every other feature. This does not replace superior crits.

I would also like remarkable athlete to provide 1.5 times proficiency to proficient skills, but I have no idea how to word that to make it legal.

You could also add Dexterity saving throw proficiency at level 7 or 10 to make one of those levels more substantial.


Do they not?

The fighter class gives you the ability to do one thing really well (or a bunch of things mediocre). Even the EK doesnt break out of tier 4 due to not having enough spells.

The cleric, bard, and wizards can do multiple things really well without being held back. These classes can easily break the game without much trying. T2
The EK gets half the spell slots of a bard or cleric, as well as about half the spells known as the wizard can prepare or the bard can know. The EK also doesn't rely on spells for all their combat ability, offensive and defensive. Yet somehow the bard is tier 2 and the EK is tier 4 due to lack of spells. Not because they only get up to 4th level. Not because they're primarily restricted to the wizard's Abjurations and Evocations.

I don't believe that bards, clerics, and wizards are tier 2 nor that EK's (or fighters in general) are tier 4.

As someone else suggested I think expanding the crit range at different levels so that the the DPR math is more equitable for the Champion is the simplest solution.
There is no value of crit range, or any other 'per attack' damage bonus, that can make the DPR equitable between the champion's (1 attack at 3, 4 attacks at 20) and the BM's (4 d8 at 3 and 6 or 7 d12 at 20) because the scaling is way off. The champion starts with 25% of their attacks (less because they're also going to get another action surge), but the BM starts with 57-66% of their dice pool and 69% of their die value, cumulatively 40-46% of their dice value.

Also as someone else mentioned, granting an additional usage of second wind (third wind?) though with the stipulation that no more than one use can be used per turn so you avoid ridiculous 10-13 attacks a turn scenarios.
It was action surge, and it has the same problem. Though you could about get the scaling right from level 5 on, or at least close enough.

[djreynolds]

I think in game, a champion plays well.

It really is dependent on what you are looking for.

Dex based is easy and unfortunately remarkable athlete isn't a huge boost, as you should have stealth and acrobatic proficiency anyhow.

Strength based IMO should be S&B, Shield Master, and fight with a finesse weapon, defensive duelist, resilient wisdom, mage slayer/lucky.

Survivor, coupled with reaction based defensive duelist and the dodge action and AC20+, you can survive, you can outlast.

I would like to see a bonus where you could add dex/str to damage. Champion, in order to really make the most with any and all weapons should get a bonus for a high strength and dexterity score.

If a hexblade can now add charisma twice with life drinker.... it's too much to ask.

[2D8HP]

I don't even understand most of these proposed "fixes", so I don't see how I would be able to play them ("Add 1d4 to dice rolls, when the moon is in Scorpio on alternate Wednesdays", a slight exaggeration but you get my point).

The beauty of the class is it's simplicity, if the "fix" doesn't retain that, I wouldn't use it.

[dejarnjc]

I don't even understand most of these proposed "fixes", so I don't see how I would be able to play them ("Add 1d4 to dice rolls, when the moon is in Scorpio on alternate Wednesdays", a slight exaggeration but you get my point).

The beauty of the class is it's simplicity, if the "fix" doesn't retain that, I wouldn't use it.

Is adding an additional use of action surge or expanding the crit range really that complicated?

[Cybren]

Is adding an additional use of action surge or expanding the crit range really that complicated?

The thing is almost all the people wanting to fix the champion want to "fix" it not in that it is too weak but in that it isn't interesting to them. If the champion is "worse" than other options it's not by enough to be relevant in gameplay, and for the people that like it, it's great.

[2D8HP]

Is adding an additional use of action surge or expanding the crit range really that complicated?

Fixes like that are good, definitely in the spirit of the class, thanks.
.
I wouldn't include those under "most of the proposed" fixes.

As far as I can follow, one of the main complaints against the Champion is that the Battlemaster and the spell casters do more damage after a given number of rounds (I haven't done the arithmetic myself), which may be true.

The othet complaint is that the Champion lacks options, i.e. minutiae for me to forget. I really don't have any response other than, "So why consider the class, aren't they others?".

[mgshamster]

I don't even understand most of these proposed "fixes", so I don't see how I would be able to play them ("Add 1d4 to dice rolls, when the moon is in Scorpio on alternate Wednesdays", a slight exaggeration but you get my point).

The beauty of the class is it's simplicity, if the "fix" doesn't retain that, I wouldn't use it.

You're right in that a lot of the fixes proposed in this thread add complexity to a class that's supposed to be simple. Things like adding to defense when you miss and adding to offense when you hit requires you to keep track of changing variables every round. Specialization requires you to remember your bonuses for this weapon but not for that weapon. Many of the proposed fixes just add complexity for the sake of fixing the "boringness" of the class.

However, if you're truly trying to give the class a power upgrade while keeping the simplicity theme, then an increase to the rate of critical hits would work nicely (right now it increases at level 3 and 15, but if it increased at 3, 7, and 15 - that would keep the simplicity (one time changes to character sheet and you're good to go!) and give it a power boost.

Also, Changing remarkable athlete to work regardless if you're proficient would be a power increase AND reduce complexity. It's a one time addition to the Character sheet and you don't have to figure out which action applies proficiency or half proficiency.

[Crgaston]

Also, Changing remarkable athlete to work regardless if you're proficient would be a power increase AND reduce complexity. It's a one time addition to the Character sheet and you don't have to figure out which action applies proficiency or half proficiency.

Again, Amen.
This is really all it needs, especially for a Dex fighter. Because if you are, you've probably already got stealth, acrobatics and sleight of hand from your background. So yay, half proficiency bonus in s dump stat.

Mmm! Designers! Change it now!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9t-slLl30E

[Sigreid]

Could be a great lower level feature and thematically aligned with survivor if they simply could spend hit dice to heal outside a short rest using a bonus action.

[Crgaston]

Could be a great lower level feature and thematically aligned with survivor if they simply could spend hit dice to heal outside a short rest using a bonus action.

Also agreed. And this would be burning a resource. A barbarian gets 50% damage reduction in addition to access to all his HD healing. So definitely not OP.

[djreynolds]

So how can we retain the simplicity of the Champion Fighter while bringing them up in overall damage?

...

How about something even crazier?

At 7th level instead of remarkable athlete

The Crowd Pleaser... your uncanny ability with weapons inspires others

At 7th level....

When you hit with a critical hit (19,20) you gain temporary hit points equal to half your fighter level and you can share these with anyone within sight or hearing of you. These last until your next short rest.

If you score a natural 20, one friendly who is in sight or hearing of you gets an inspiration die that can be used. This lasts until their next short rest or are lost if the champion becomes incapacitated on unconscious

When you roll a 1, you lose hit points towards your maximum hit point level, a number equal to half your fighter level, these hit points can only be regained once you have scored a critical hit again. Any temporary hit points for you or your teammates are lost.

At 15th level....

When you score a critical hit (18,19,20) you gain temporary hit points now equal to your level and can share these with anyone within sight or hearing of you. These last until your next short rest.

If you score a natural 20, all friendly within sight or hearing of you gain an inspiration die. This inspiration die last until their next short rest or are lost if the champion becomes incapacitated on unconscious

When you roll a 1, you lose hit points towards your maximum hit point level, a number equal to your fighter level, these hit points can only be regained once you have scored a critical hit again. Any temporary hit points for you or your teammates are lost.