Awaken & Genetics

[AKA_Bait]

I was curious what folks thought about what happens if an awakened creature breeds.

Does it pass on it's new intelegence to its progeny or are it's children normal for the original species?

Would it matter if the other animal it breeds with is also awakened?

[NullAshton]

It's an instantanous magical effect, with no mention that it passes the effect on to it's progeny. Thus, no, it's kids would not be intelligent. Though, as a DM, it would be perfectly fine to rule otherwise if you wanted for some reason to have a small civilization of intelligent animals.

[lukelightning]

Genetics schmenetics. This is a game in which a dragon can boink a shambling mound and have little dragon mounds. I say do whatever is funnest.

[Zeful]

I was curious what folks thought about what happens if an awakened creature breeds.

Does it pass on it's new intelegence to its progeny or are it's children normal for the original species?

Would it matter if the other animal it breeds with is also awakened?

For the purposes of this disscussion a wolf will be the creature chosen to be awakened
It all depends really, when a creature is awakened it can start gaining class hit dice that will never change their size, a primary sign to the female (assuming male here) that the potential father is a good breeder, thus the runt wolf with eleven Con and the 20th level Awakened Runt Wolf Fighter with a Con of eleven have the same chance of breeding, none. If the Runt Wolf fighter fights for domination of the pack (odds are he will) he could have his choice of any of the females with which to mate.
Are the children awakened? Only if the Wolf became a wizard and maxed out his intelligence adventuring and collecting insight bonuses pushing his Int into the 20 range than yes. A maxed out Dex wolf would breed quick agile children. A maxed out Str wolf would breed small hulk wolves, the other two stats have no real effect on the creatures.
A Druid Wolf could potentially cast awaken on it's pack and all pups at birth to push the intelligence into the genes making a race of anthropomorphic wolves that would rule the uncivilized forests.

Being no form of precedent you have full control over the outcome.

[TheElfLord]

I'm a fan of the cronicles of Narnia, so I say, yes two awakened creatures do pass on their intellegence to their offspring.

[Rachel Lorelei]

"Genetics" isn't a very good way of looking at it. A D&D world doesn't *have* anything remotely like the real world's genetics--or it couldn't be the way it is.

[Fixer]

Why oh why did you have to bring yiffing to D&D?

As Rule 0, you as DM have the decision. There are no rules on it.

Amusing thought:
An awakened tree approaches an unawakened tree and starts to badly flirt with it. The awakened tree states, "I'll hold my breath until you agree to go out with me!" Two thousand years later it realizes it breathes through photosynthesis and not through its mouth that it has been holding shut.

[Caelestion]

Yiffing? I think someone plays furry games :)

[Fixer]

No, I read a lot. I have been forum-ing since they were called BBS's. 16 years?

*Edit: Ninja'd!

[AKA_Bait]

"Genetics" isn't a very good way of looking at it. A D&D world doesn't *have* anything remotely like the real world's genetics--or it couldn't be the way it is.

Would I have been better off using the word 'heredity'? I wasn't talking about the coding of nucleitides as effected by magic...

Thanks to everyone who has chimed in so far.
If you are curious why I'm asking it's because I'm debating if I want to have a particular Awakened NPC in an adventure I'm running be able to have awakened children or not. I'm actually thinking not as it will will give the character more motivation to be doing the nasty things it's doing.

[Ulzgoroth]

Are the children awakened? Only if the Wolf became a wizard and maxed out his intelligence adventuring and collecting insight bonuses pushing his Int into the 20 range than yes. A maxed out Dex wolf would breed quick agile children. A maxed out Str wolf would breed small hulk wolves, the other two stats have no real effect on the creatures.

Er, where do you get the idea that Lamarckian inheritance applies to D&D? It doesn't to the real world, and you'd see some substantial and weird effects if it did...families dedicated to particular fields more or less evolving out of the species as (for instance) blacksmith's sons marry blacksmith's daughters (who would be encouraged to build muscle as well, probably) and eventually spawn something like ogres.

I'd be inclined to say that mental traits in D&D are mostly not determined by body, so Awakening wouldn't have any genetic impact. I get this from the way mental traits are not effected by the modifiers of the new form after a Reincarnate spell. Magical heredity is always a messy subject, though, so any desired answer is possible.

If it is genetic, I'd suggest (to make things messier) making it a dominant inherited trait for which the awakened creature is heterozygous. And possibly give it a recessive side effect of some kind.

[lotofsnow]

I would just be inclined to state that the magical energies that "awaken" the creatures also render them sterile.

[AKA_Bait]

I would just be inclined to state that the magical energies that "awaken" the creatures also render them sterile.

Ah see, but that would kill the motivation of the NPC I'm considering this for. I want the critter to be able to have kids. I'm just debating if I want the kids to be smart or not. Either way works for the character to be motivated so I was wondering what people thought about the two possibilites within the rules.

If anyone cares (Mike and Katie don't read this):
I'm creating an Awakened Sorcerous Rat named Phineus. This a MBEG (Medium bad evil guy) who is seeking becoming a lich because he's getting old either to a) protect his intelegent children and slowly take over humaniods or b) find a way to make his generations of stupid children and grandchildren able to pass on their intelegence. I'm leaning toward b.

[Fax Celestis]

I'm creating an Awakened Sorcerous Rat named Phineus. This a MBEG (Medium bad evil guy) who is seeking becoming a lich because he's getting old either to a) protect his intelegent children and slowly take over humaniods or b) find a way to make his generations of stupid children and grandchildren able to pass on their intelegence. I'm leaning toward b.

A rat lich is FREAKING HILARIOUS.

[Indon]

I'm creating an Awakened Sorcerous Rat named Phineus. This a MBEG (Medium bad evil guy) who is seeking becoming a lich because he's getting old either to a) protect his intelegent children and slowly take over humaniods or b) find a way to make his generations of stupid children and grandchildren able to pass on their intelegence. I'm leaning toward b.


If you really wanted to milk the Secret of Nihm potential, you could have only _part_ of the intelligence carry over every generation. So, Gen 1 has 15 int, Gen 2 has 9, Gen 3 has 6, Gen 4 has 4, Gen 5 has 3, and Gen 6 is normal.

[AKA_Bait]

A rat lich is FREAKING HILARIOUS.

I think it's a funny idea to start with but I'm hoping to make the Aged Rat somewhat sympathetic also. Imagine being the only one of your species that you have ever met with an intelegence over 10. Ending up bumping uglies with creatues that are just like you physically except (from your point of view) severly mentally handicapped. Then having all your kids turn out that way too.

[Collin152]

I think it's a funny idea to start with but I'm hoping to make the Aged Rat somewhat sympathetic also. Imagine being the only one of your species that you have ever met with an intelegence over 10. Ending up bumping uglies with creatues that are just like you physically except (from your point of view) severly mentally handicapped. Then having all your kids turn out that way too.

If he weren't a rat, I'd feel sorry for him. If you can, prevent his death. After all, as a rat (and sorcerer) what are the odds the PCs could find his soul hidey-place? They should convince him to somehow embrace death, and let him destroy his phylactery himself.

[AKA_Bait]

If he weren't a rat, I'd feel sorry for him. If you can, prevent his death. After all, as a rat (and sorcerer) what are the odds the PCs could find his soul hidey-place? They should convince him to somehow embrace death, and let him destroy his phylactery himself.

That's pretty much going to be up to them. If they can convince him then that's certianly an option. It's not very likley at this point since they already killed a bunch of his cousins/children who were on the first level of the catacombs they going down into. Also, he's not a lich yet but is close to being ready to perform the ritiual.

[Chronos]

Were it up to me, I would rule that an awakened wolf is no longer a "wolf" (it's not even an animal any more; it's a magical beast), and that it could therefore only reproduce with other awakened wolves. Reproduction with normal wolves would be impossible without magical aid, just as it's impossible for a wolf to breed with a cat. If magical aid of some sort were employed, then it would depend on the nature of the magic whether the offspring would be awakened or not. But on review of your spoilers, it looks like this wouldn't work for you, so just choose whatever rules would work for you.

[Fax Celestis]

Were it up to me, I would rule that an awakened wolf is no longer a "wolf" (it's not even an animal any more; it's a magical beast), and that it could therefore only reproduce with other awakened wolves. Reproduction with normal wolves would be impossible without magical aid, just as it's impossible for a wolf to breed with a cat. If magical aid of some sort were employed, then it would depend on the nature of the magic whether the offspring would be awakened or not. But on review of your spoilers, it looks like this wouldn't work for you, so just choose whatever rules would work for you.

...You've never heard of ligers and tigons, have you?

[Diggorian]

Bait, that is an excellant concept! I dont read alot of fantasy, so if you've ripped it off good taste in plagiarism :smallbiggrin:

I'd decide you-know-who can not do you-know-what, not because of any fantasy pseudo-science, but because it makes for greater stake in his plans. He must be quite lonely and have grand dreams of a secret society of his followers.

Indon's idea I could see as well, but it could be resolved with crafted ... Collars of Intellect maybe which solve the problem too easily IMHO.

[Fax Celestis]

Maybe your MBEG is researching an arcane version of Awaken (or Mass Awaken), but has been struck by some sort of debilitating disease and needs to achieve lichdom so he can survive long enough to complete his research?

[Diggorian]

That makes alot of sense Fax.

Also, I just learned from Yahoo answers that members of that race live 6-7 years max.

[Benejeseret]

I agree to stay away from Jean Baptiste Lamarck in all of his forms, even more so with a group who likely doesn't have a complete grasp his vs darwin's theories.

That being said, an awakened animal would be a experiencial or nuture type aquired trait just like feat and skill points - and none of these are 'passed' onto offspring. Neither would 'aquired' attributes for extra HD.

However, an awakened wolf would likely train his offspring to a degree normal wolves could not. He could train them in skills and train them in feats but he is still basically just training them as a handle animal check.

Dun, dun daaaah...But, IF instead of awakening the wolf you awaken his sperm (hey, if a tree can wake up so can a swimmer) then all of his offspring may also be awakened. Treat him as a chimera (genetic chimera not magic beast chimera). His children may not be able to produce second generation awakened wolves but that one wolf could make allot of them.

Bene

[Inyssius Tor]

Hey, don't diss the Lamarckian model. It may not be, y'know, real, but neither is the æther (and you can't tell me that's not awesome) or the Cliff at the Edge of the World (ditto). :smallwink:

[Zeful]

*Casts Protection to Catgirls*


Er, where do you get the idea that Lamarckian inheritance applies to D&D? It doesn't to the real world, and you'd see some substantial and weird effects if it did...families dedicated to particular fields more or less evolving out of the species as (for instance) blacksmith's sons marry blacksmith's daughters (who would be encouraged to build muscle as well, probably) and eventually spawn something like ogres.

It's freaking magic! The results most likely would be something completely off the wall, like instead of wolves, you get human babies. Why? Because it's magic you can apply any theory you want to any situation involving magic. For example "Does repeated teleportations perserve inertia?" (this has nothing to do with the topic and is to be preferably ignored)

The reason I assert for this Lamarckian inheritance thing (haven't heard of it till now) is the half dragon template. The polymorph power they use makes them humaniod (human/elf/golbin/dwarf/gnome/halfling/or some other humaniod race) not dragons. If the change were complete enough to allow spawning the resultant child cannot be draconic in any form as the father/mother is genetically a humaniod of compatible genes, not a magically changed dragon. Thus the precedent for passing on impossible genetics is proven by the dragon's ability to breed with any living corporeal creature. Thus one can infer that the intelligence of a species in an inherated trait that can be passed down throughout the generations.

[Collin152]

*Casts Protection to Catgirls*



It's freaking magic! The results most likely would be something completely off the wall, like instead of wolves, you get human babies. Why? Because it's magic you can apply any theory you want to any situation involving magic. For example "Does repeated teleportations perserve inertia?" (this has nothing to do with the topic and is to be preferably ignored)

The reason I assert for this Lamarckian inheritance thing (haven't heard of it till now) is the half dragon template. The polymorph power they use makes them humaniod (human/elf/golbin/dwarf/gnome/halfling/or some other humaniod race) not dragons. If the change were complete enough to allow spawning the resultant child cannot be draconic in any form as the father/mother is genetically a humaniod of compatible genes, not a magically changed dragon. Thus the precedent for passing on impossible genetics is proven by the dragon's ability to breed with any living corporeal creature. Thus one can infer that the intelligence of a species in an inherated trait that can be passed down throughout the generations.

Okay, so dragons becomes outwardly/physically human, offspring is half dragon. Wolf gets awakened, human babies...?

[Fax Celestis]

*Casts Protection to Catgirls*



It's freaking magic! The results most likely would be something completely off the wall, like instead of wolves, you get human babies. Why? Because it's magic you can apply any theory you want to any situation involving magic. For example "Does repeated teleportations perserve inertia?" (this has nothing to do with the topic and is to be preferably ignored)

The reason I assert for this Lamarckian inheritance thing (haven't heard of it till now) is the half dragon template. The polymorph power they use makes them humaniod (human/elf/golbin/dwarf/gnome/halfling/or some other humaniod race) not dragons. If the change were complete enough to allow spawning the resultant child cannot be draconic in any form as the father/mother is genetically a humaniod of compatible genes, not a magically changed dragon. Thus the precedent for passing on impossible genetics is proven by the dragon's ability to breed with any living corporeal creature. Thus one can infer that the intelligence of a species in an inherated trait that can be passed down throughout the generations.

The difference there is that Polymorph changes you into a creature of the appropriate type--meaning you're actually one of those creatures, with all traits associated. Meanwhile, Awaken only changes your mental capacities: your physiology remains the same.

[Stephen_E]

Following roughly along RL lines I'd rule that as an awaken creature your "wolf" would be a seperate but related creature. As such he would be able to cross breed with normal wolves but would have a lower fertility with his "cousins" and any off-spring woul have a lower fertility period. The intelligance and Charisma would be inclined to be higher than "normal" parent but lower than the awakened parent. Any preference either way (representing whether the awakened traits are dominant or recessive) is upt GM's choice.

The fertility of it's line could indeed be a thing of concern for any awakened parent.

Lovely idea by the way.

It's been a long time since I studied Lamarken evoution, and then only in passing, but it is interesting just what can be inherited. I recall reading about a study that indicated that enviorimental factors can be inherited for several generation after the enviorimental factor has gone (through the maternal line IIRC). The example IIRC was that if famine is common while you're growing it'll affect your children. If that child is raised in plenty their children will still be affected as if they'd grown up in famine, and so on for the next generation, and the generation after that.

The old saying "a sufficiently advanced technolgy is indistingusable from magic" can be applyed to genetics, with genetics been the "sufficiently advanced technology".

Stephen

[Hadrian_Emrys]

I'm with the crowd that doesn't think that awakened and mundane animals can produce offspring seeing as how one is an animal and the other is a magical beast (augmented animal). Now two awakened animals however... How complex an issue would a town infested with magically sentient animals be?

[Dervag]

Amusing thought:
An awakened tree approaches an unawakened tree and starts to badly flirt with it. The awakened tree states, "I'll hold my breath until you agree to go out with me!" Two thousand years later it realizes it breathes through photosynthesis and not through its mouth that it has been holding shut.Well, for trees, it's all about the bees anyway, so that greatly simplifies their dating game.


Er, where do you get the idea that Lamarckian inheritance applies to D&D? It doesn't to the real world, and you'd see some substantial and weird effects if it did...families dedicated to particular fields more or less evolving out of the species as (for instance) blacksmith's sons marry blacksmith's daughters (who would be encouraged to build muscle as well, probably) and eventually spawn something like ogres.So that's where they came from!


If it is genetic, I'd suggest (to make things messier) making it a dominant inherited trait for which the awakened creature is heterozygous. And possibly give it a recessive side effect of some kind.Nice idea. So you've got a family of Awakened bears or whatever... except for cousin Boo. He's "special."

I'd say that a pair of awakened animals would breed a line of awakened animals, and breed true; but interbreeding of an awakened animal and a non-awakened animal would tend to fade out over time with an increasing number of non-awakened offspring.


I would just be inclined to state that the magical energies that "awaken" the creatures also render them sterile.Well, it simplifies your problem but at the cost of squashing a potentially interesting set of possibilities. Since there's no a priori reason it has to be true (exposure to D&D magic does not normally render creatures sterile), I don't think I'd use that ruling.


...You've never heard of ligers and tigons, have you?Actually, his argument is justified if you assume something that works sort of like real genetics, because if there are genetic changes imposed on the brain of the awakened wolf and not on the normal wolf, then a crossbreed between the two may very well not have a functioning brain and therefore be stillborn.


Hey, don't diss the Lamarckian model. It may not be, y'know, real, but neither is the æther (and you can't tell me that's not awesome) or the Cliff at the Edge of the World (ditto). :smallwink:The problem is that Lamarckian evolution (which isn't really the same as Lamarck's original theory; he gets more bad press than he deserves) has real-world consequences that show up very quickly and that do not resemble the ones we expect from our D&D world. Such as blacksmiths rapidly interbreeding themselves into a race of giants.


It's freaking magic! The results most likely would be something completely off the wall, like instead of wolves, you get human babies. Why? Because it's magic you can apply any theory you want to any situation involving magic. For example "Does repeated teleportations perserve inertia?" (this has nothing to do with the topic and is to be preferably ignored)Hey, chill.

People like to use theories with logically consistent results and explanations. They may have to invoke magic to explain something in D&D, but the results should be internally consistent and should fit in logically with other related things in the world of D&D.

Hence the genetics argument. Mules exist in D&D, and half-orcs exist in D&D, and half-dragons exist in D&D. Therefore, whatever governs heredity in D&D must be able to explain all those things, and so references to those things are highly relevant to the question.


The polymorph power they use makes them humaniod (human/elf/golbin/dwarf/gnome/halfling/or some other humaniod race) not dragons. If the change were complete enough to allow spawning the resultant child cannot be draconic in any form as the father/mother is genetically a humaniod of compatible genes, not a magically changed dragon.Ah-hah!

The dragon may become a humanoid, but it most certainly retains its ability to polymorph, right? Now, polymorphing is clearly not a genetic ability; it must be magical in nature. However, it is also inheritable, because there are species that can do it. So perhaps the half-dragon inherits a limited form of their draconic parent's polymorph ability.

But they lack full control over the ability, possibly because they are also descended from something with no ability to polymorph. So their uncontrolled polymorph ability leaves them physically dragon-like, insofar as it can induce a transformation into a dragon; but they can't use it to alter their form. In essence, the magic that allowed the dragon to polymorph into a humanoid is altering the form of the offspring into a part-dragon, part-humanoid form.

[Khanderas]

I would just be inclined to state that the magical energies that "awaken" the creatures also render them sterile.

To avoid half-half elves and such, I would (If I DM'ed) judge half-elves and half orcs and half-anything sterile.

Pairing a donkey and horse does this. Its offspring are sterile. (Mules)

Afterall, they are different SPEICES, not just race.

[Ulzgoroth]

The differences between (inheritable) awakened and normal animals are substantial, to be sure. The key questions for inheritance, on real-biology analysis (does that mean god spays a catgirl? And if so, is there a bounty?), are how the differences are arranged on the chromosomes and how much the original target is changed.

One method, probably pure nonsense (but hey, we're making a rat sapient by magical gene therapy...) would be to add an artificial chromosome containing the complete awakening package. This would make the entire thing passed down in full or not at all, and unconnected to anything else. This could be granted as one copy or two. One copy might cause reduced fertility, but the chromosome being dedicated entirely to awakening means it might not as well (it also means that back-cross offspring might have a double dose, producing unusual effects). Two would produce offspring with only one when crossed to the natural species, and they might (but need not) have reduced benefits or even serious defects resulting from genes dependent on two copies. If you want the creature to be unable to breed back, that's probably the best pattern for it.

Slightly different is to add the entire bundle to some existing chromosome. Mostly that means it may be linked to some property of the original animal...for the obvious, a particular bit of fur patterning signaling the awakened lineage to those who recognize it.

The probably more realistic option is to have lots of changes distributed across the existing chromosomes. This means that the changes will be inherited in a more or less uncoordinated manner (though probably the awakened original is homozygous for them). They won't be enough to interfere with recombination, but it's anyone's guess what happens when you make them heterozygous. Or if that isn't lethal, what happens when they later wind up with a mix of full wild type, heterozygous, and fully changed genes. This might make the awakened animals sterile with normals, by way of developmental problems in the offspring. It also might create something loosely resembling the analog inheritance that often turns up in fantasy by which the enhancement is 'diluted' by the blood of unawakened parents. Though it wouldn't tend to be a uniform dilution, especially over multiple generations. In the same way that real genetics don't give you true-breeding half elves. They ought to give rise to at least a few near-pure humans and near-pure elves, and quite a lot of outliers very close to one or the other ancestor race.

For people harping on species: species is a very, very shaky concept. The definition is essentially experimental and also, as ligers and tigons show, rather blurry even then. And incidentally, mules too. Mules are sterile...usually. But some female mules aren't, it turns out.

Considering that orcs, humans, and elves have so much in common and have been in...intimate contact...for pretty much all of history, it's more likely that they wouldn't have ever fully separated.

[Inyssius Tor]

To avoid half-half elves and such, I would (If I DM'ed) judge half-elves and half orcs and half-anything sterile.

Pairing a donkey and horse does this. Its offspring are sterile. (Mules)

After all, they are different SPECIES, not just race.

In Eberron, I think it goes like this:
If you are ~50% orcish, you're a half-orc. If you are particularly orcish, you're a full orc (albeit perhaps a scrawny, pinkish one); if you aren't so orcish, you're a human (albeit perhaps a greenish, lumpy one).

Half-elves can have full-blood human kids or full-blood half-elf kids, but never elves or quarter-elves (it's MAGIC, darn it!).

[AKA_Bait]

Maybe your MBEG is researching an arcane version of Awaken (or Mass Awaken), but has been struck by some sort of debilitating disease and needs to achieve lichdom so he can survive long enough to complete his research?

That's pretty much the idea. Except, since it's a rat, as someone pointed out, I don't actually need a debilitating disease to explain it. They have very short lifespans to begin with and as you pointed out Awaken doesn't change that.

[Yuki Akuma]

Ever heard of tibbits? They're the descendents of wizards' familiars. They're like halflings that can shapeshift into housecats (or possibly housecats that can shapeshift into halflings).

Of course, I don't know whether they mated with normal cats or other familiars..


To avoid half-half elves and such, I would (If I DM'ed) judge half-elves and half orcs and half-anything sterile.

Pairing a donkey and horse does this. Its offspring are sterile. (Mules)

Afterall, they are different SPEICES, not just race.

Fun fact: it is very much possible to have fertile female tigons. Just not fertile males. So you could breed a female tigon with a male lion to make a li-tigon, or a male tiger to make a ti-tigon...

The same is true for ligers; the females are often fertile, but the males never are.

Also true for jaglions, jaguatigers, liguars, leguars, liards... Heck, most panthera hybrid females are fertile. :smalltongue:

[Xuincherguixe]

Oh the things people breed when they have too much time on their hands.

[Yuki Akuma]

It's for Science, I swear.

[Stephen_E]

I recall a couple of decades ago a NZ zoo had put to primates of different species together because they only had one of each and they didn't want then getting lonely. Been male and female they of course became mates (as was intended. Sex helps avoid loneliness alot) but given the species had different chromosome counts (about 6 different from memory) they were understandly rather surprised when the female got pregnant, and even more so when it produced a viable fertile offspring.

Truth be told, if humans made a habit of breeding with primates often enough we'd probably see offspring, with a chance of some been fertile. The safest rule you can make regarding crossbreeding of "species" is that the fertility of the offspring is dodgy at best. You get all sorts of oddness, 1 sex fertile, the other infertile, fertility varies depending on which species was the farther, offspring can breed to other offspring, but not back to either parent species, offspring can breed back to one parent species, but not the other,.....

And it's not necessarily a matter of deliberate experiments. The simple truth is that any species with a sex drive will try and use that sex drive. If their own species isn't available they go with whatever works (and the higher the sentiance, the more chance of them actually developing bonds of affection, and on rare case crossbreeding even when a same race mate is available). Celibacy is abnormal.

Stephen

[HidaTsuzua]

I've generally gone with a roughly Lamarckian model for D&D heredity. Yes it provides weirdness, but so do Half-Dragons. Half-Dragon Gelatinous Cubes, warforged, treants, bacteria, awaken trees, etc. Also what's wrong with blacksmiths breeding to become giants? Giants exist. Heck now there might be reasons why there are Pelor knowns how many subraces of elves.

I originally settled for a Lamarckian model since reading the multi-generational adventuring rules in some supplement (I think DMGII). Basically you could pass on your point gains due to level to your offspring. With that I decided to try out Lamarck.

As for awaken, it'll depend on the setting. Since I generally aim for a high-fantasy and not afraid to be so settings for D&D, I'll have at least some offspring be awaken. They're likely going to be killed by adventurers sooner or later.

[Yuki Akuma]

...Wait, warforged? Warforged don't breed... :smallconfused:

[Arbitrarity]

I heard about a half-dragon warforged. And Half-Illithid warforged :smallconfused:

[Inyssius Tor]

Ah, that was a good thread. I don't see any problem with it, really...

The premise for half-dragon isn't too off: forged with a magical flamethrower? Draconic leather inside the system, metallic dragon scales smelted down to form the chassis?

EDIT: And warforged do have brains, though not necessarily palatable ones. If a flayer tadpole can eat warforged brain fiber, it can convert certain other parts of the warforged's insides; pushing tentacles out through the mouth cavity would probably be the easiest part, and the rest of the Half-Illithid's abilities are inherent to the tadpole.

[Rama_Lei]

Food for thought. Say you cast awaken on an an expecting mother?

[Fax Celestis]

Food for thought. Say you cast awaken on an an expecting mother?

Since awaken only has one target, the child is unaffected.

[Neek]

Hate to drift the conversation back on topic--Half-Dragon Gelatinous cubes are an abomination to any SENSE whatsoever...

An awakened animal becomes a magical beast. If two magical beasts, they produce magical beast offspring. So, what would happen a non-magical beast mated with a magical beast? You can't argue that a non-magical beast can't mate with a magical one: where do you think Planetouched comes from?

Check the SRD and apply rule 0. This is the only example we have: A celestial can be applied to multitude of creatures: Animals, humanoids, &c. Its offspring can feasibly be considered half-celestial (I'm not sure how; celestial has a LA +2, half-celestial has a LA+4, but then again, ligers are the biggest pantherae, yet are bred between two different types. Just level with me here. :P) Down the line, you get planetouched.

So, would it be feasible that two awakened creatures who bump awakened uglies produce an awakened litter? Yes. Otherwise, I'd call for a 50% chance if only parent was awakened. Decrease that chance per generation.

This isn't a matter of genetics. This is a matter of DM calling the situation. He can make a call saying No, or he can say yes. I say because: 1). D&D taxonomy is a way of determining HD, BAB, Saves, and skill points per hit die, not genetics, 2). some humanoids can breed with other humanoids, dragons can breed with other types, outsiders and celestials might be able to too. 3). If in argument 2, traits are passed down, traits would be passed down in the breeding; technically, a non-awakened + awakened == half-awakened, whatever that means.

D&D doesn't have rules on breeding, nor even concise rules. There's nothing in RAW that states an antelope and a lion can't breed, a zebra and an elephant, a human and a troll, or a troll and an elephant. We know dragons can breed with any of those, we know humans + elves or humans + orcs yield half-elves and half-orcs respectively. We know that half-celestial produces Planetouched. We don't know if Celestial + Non-celestial == half-celestial, &c.

So, I say do it. As someone else in this thread said, "Do what makes the game more fun."

[blackout]

Half-Illithid warforged

:smalleek: I never want to see those words next to eachother in that manner again.

But, yeah, Awakened animals should be able to breed with other awakened animals...That's pretty much all I have to say.

[MrNexx]

I've seen it suggested that D&D uses Lamarckian evolution (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamarckism), given the plethora of subraces of long-lived, low generational frequency, creatures (i.e. elves, dwarves, etc.)

However, my ruling would be that Awakened creatures breeding with non-awakened creatures results in smarter than average, but not equal to a full Awakening; they're likely to have a -4 penalty to Intelligence in the first generation, a -6 in the second (assuming only one Awakened progenitor), and a -8 in the third, and the fourth generation is simply animals; always with the caveat that you have a minimum Intelligence equal to normal animals of your type (so the third-generation descendant of an Awakened Wolf who puts his 8 in intelligence has a 2, not a 0).

Wisdom and Charisma are unlikely to be affected for most creatures. Of course, for plants, it gets a little bit more severe.

[Tor the Fallen]

For the purposes of this disscussion a wolf will be the creature chosen to be awakened
It all depends really, when a creature is awakened it can start gaining class hit dice that will never change their size, a primary sign to the female (assuming male here) that the potential father is a good breeder, thus the runt wolf with eleven Con and the 20th level Awakened Runt Wolf Fighter with a Con of eleven have the same chance of breeding, none. If the Runt Wolf fighter fights for domination of the pack (odds are he will) he could have his choice of any of the females with which to mate.
Are the children awakened? Only if the Wolf became a wizard and maxed out his intelligence adventuring and collecting insight bonuses pushing his Int into the 20 range than yes. A maxed out Dex wolf would breed quick agile children. A maxed out Str wolf would breed small hulk wolves, the other two stats have no real effect on the creatures.
A Druid Wolf could potentially cast awaken on it's pack and all pups at birth to push the intelligence into the genes making a race of anthropomorphic wolves that would rule the uncivilized forests.

Being no form of precedent you have full control over the outcome.

I thought Lamackarism died in the 19th century....

[Hectonkhyres]

I'm with the crowd that doesn't think that awakened and mundane animals can produce offspring seeing as how one is an animal and the other is a magical beast (augmented animal). Now two awakened animals however... How complex an issue would a town infested with magically sentient animals be?

So a human being can do the pelvic-monster-mash with anything in all the planes... and spit out an abomination or two about nine months later. Orcs, ogers, dragons, demons, devils, kobolds, GODS, whatever. But a sapient wolf can't do it with one of his own kind minus the brain?

Racism! Racism, I tell you!

[AKA_Bait]

So a human being can do the pelvic-monster-mash with anything in all the planes... and spit out an abomination or two about nine months later. Orcs, ogers, dragons, demons, devils, kobolds, GODS, whatever. But a sapient wolf can't do it with one of his own kind minus the brain?

Racism! Racism, I tell you!

That would be speciesism. Get your prejudices right. ;-P