Hexblade Patron + Pact of the Blade + Curse Bringer invocation = Witcher?

[Arkhios]

I was wondering would the combination as seen in the topic make a good witcher-esque character?

If so, how would you build it, within the boundaries given by the UA Article (RAW). Obviously you'd use greatsword as your weapon of choice, but what else?

Maybe a witcher would have Eldritch Invocations somehow like this:
Eldritch Invocations per level

N/A
2: Burning Hex, Fiendish Vigor
2: Fiendish Vigor → Curse Bringer
2: No changes
3: Thirsting Blade (extra attack)
3: No changes
4: Improved Pact Weapon
4: No changes
5: Improved Pact Weapon → Superior Pact Weapon, Relentless Hex
5: No changes
5: No changes
6: Lifedrinker
6: No changes
6: No changes
7: Superior Pact Weapon → Ultimate Pact Weapon, Witch Sight
7: No changes
7: No changes
8: Chilling Hex
8: No changes
8: No changes


Toying around with this, I came to realize that a single-classed Hexblade could become seriously frightening, even without using the Curse Bringer "smite" ability.

Let's assume a 27 point buy and variant human (+1 str, +1 cha, Heavily Armored):
Str 16, Dex 8, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 16

With 5 standard ASI:s you'd only ever need Great Weapon Master and +4 to Strength and +4 to Charisma.

With Hexblade's Curse, Lifedrinker, and Ultimate Pact Weapon, your base damage with a greatsword would be 2d6+8 (strength+3) +6 (proficiency) + 5 necrotic (Charisma via Lifedrinker); Adding GWM, you're at 2d6+29 damage with only one consumable feature, and you can attack twice, and score a critical hit with 19 to 20. As if that wasn't enough, you can add a whopping +10d8 extra damage with a hit (or 20d8 with a critical hit).
Hexblade is pure murder which a paladin can only hope to match.

[GlenSmash!]

I was wondering would the combination as seen in the topic make a good witcher-esque character?

If so, how would you build it, within the boundaries given by the UA Article (RAW). Obviously you'd use greatsword as your weapon of choice, but what else?

Hmm... I don't see how a warlock that swears a pact with a sentient weapon is really analogous to a Witcher.

[Dr.Samurai]

I suspect he's asking if mechanically, this build represents the abilities of the Witcher well.

[jaappleton]

Played an Eladrin Hexblade for 2 sessions before he died. Nobodys fault, I rolled very poorly for quite a few rounds in a row.

It was a TON of fun and very powerful. Innate Misty Step (Eladrin) was spectacular. I could teleport behind my enemies and dice them to pieces (my DM gave me Advantage for doing that).

I don't really know if its abilities really line up with a Witcher, since I've never really played that series. But it was a TON of fun, and felt incredibly powerful.

[Arkhios]

I suspect he's asking if mechanically, this build represents the abilities of the Witcher well.

This.


I don't really know if its abilities really line up with a Witcher, since I've never really played that series. But it was a TON of fun, and felt incredibly powerful.

I have the Witcher 3 for PS 4, though I haven't played it much. However, Gerard (the main character) does have a special silver greatsword which is why I found Curse Bringer to be very appropriate and line up with Witcher. Plus, a Witcher can (at least in Witcher 3) mark his foes with hex-like abilities which would do many things that the Hexblade's Invocations can do.

[jaappleton]

Hold Person to replicate the 'enemy can't leave this space'. Burning Hex to replicate... What is it? Agni? Igni?

[Arkhios]

Hold Person to replicate the 'enemy can't leave this space'. Burning Hex to replicate... What is it? Agni? Igni?

I think it was Igni, yeah.

[Arkhios]

I know I'm rather late with this hexblade stuff, but as I was toying around with the build (updated the OP, if someone already having read this thread is interested) I realized how incredibly powerful (and potentially broken) hexblade really is. I would be surprised if Curse Bringer (and Claw of Acamar and Moon Bow) wouldn't be nerfed to match Divine Smite with their damage potential, because seriously - 10d8 with a normal hit (or 20d8 with a critical hit) extra damage with just going pure warlock? Just imagine a warlock dipping into a sorcerer and dropping the real bomb with 18d8 with a normal hit (or 36d8 with a critical hit)! What were they thinking? That's insane!

[DracoKnight]

I know I'm rather late with this hexblade stuff, but as I was toying around with the build (updated the OP, if someone already having read this thread is interested) I realized how incredibly powerful (and potentially broken) hexblade really is. I would be surprised if Curse Bringer (and Claw of Acamar and Moon Bow) wouldn't be nerfed to match Divine Smite with their damage potential, because seriously - 10d8 with a normal hit (or 20d8 with a critical hit) extra damage with just going pure warlock? Just imagine a warlock dipping into a sorcerer and dropping the real bomb with 18d8 with a normal hit (or 36d8 with a critical hit)! What were they thinking? That's insane!

Which is why I put in the feedback survey that those invocations should be limited to use with warlock spell slots.

[Arkhios]

Which is why I put in the feedback survey that those invocations should be limited to use with warlock spell slots.

That might help, but even with that, it's still 3d8 (or 6d8) more than a Divine Smite could do, plus that a bladelock would be able to do that at 9th level, when a paladin of equal level could only use a 3rd level slot for max. 5d8 against fiends or undead, which is still only half of the Warlock's potential.

[jaappleton]

That might help, but even with that, it's still 3d8 (or 6d8) more than a Divine Smite could do, plus that a bladelock would be able to do that at 9th level, when a paladin of equal level could only use a 3rd level slot for max. 5d8 against fiends or undead, which is still only half of the Warlock's potential.

But, but a Paladin is likely going to Smite more during a day because he has more slots. Also, Radiant is a superior damage type than those offered by any Warlock ability. Yes, I count it as superior to Force damage.

While the Warlock is capable of a bigger Nova, it also hamstrings it by eating half its spell slots (prior to lv10). Also note that the Warlock NEVER really gets the immense defensive capability of a Paladin; Heavy armor, +Cha to saves, a Fighting style of any kind, Lay on Hands, no healing spells of any sort, etc.

Hexblade is good, but its quite the glass cannon. You NEED Curse Bringer to rapidly replenish your HP, or you're not going to live very long.

....trust me, my Eladrin found that out. :smalltongue:

EDIT: Oh, and that's without mentioning the offensive boosts the various Paladin archetypes offer via Channel Divinity. +Cha to attack rolls, or constant Advantage against one enemy every short rest.

[Arkhios]

But, but a Paladin is likely going to Smite more during a day because he has more slots. Also, Radiant is a superior damage type than those offered by any Warlock ability. Yes, I count it as superior to Force damage.

While the Warlock is capable of a bigger Nova, it also hamstrings it by eating half its spell slots (prior to lv10). Also note that the Warlock NEVER really gets the immense defensive capability of a Paladin; Heavy armor, +Cha to saves, a Fighting style of any kind, Lay on Hands, no healing spells of any sort, etc.

Hexblade is good, but its quite the glass cannon. You NEED Curse Bringer to rapidly replenish your HP, or you're not going to live very long.

....trust me, my Eladrin found that out. :smalltongue:

Granted, it sure is a glass cannon...

...can you imagine a Paladin 11/Hexblade 9 (assuming you can use all spell slots):

4 x 2d8 / long rest
3 x 4d8 / long rest
3 x 6d8 / long rest
+
2 x 10d8 / short rest

...all of which would also benefit from improved divine smite and thus the bonus +1d8 vs fiend/undead targets.

[Mikal]

Someone made a decent Witcher using the old bladelock with fiend.

It was MAD as hell and required several feats that the hexblade no longer has to multi class for.

You could go str and use the silver greatsword from curse bringer as your monster sword and another greatsword or another blade as your standard if you go that route play wise.

Alternatively just go cha/dex/con and go long swords.

Won't be burst damage with curse bringer but from a flavor perspective makes sense.

I'd probably have igni also be represented by burning hex along with the spells he noted.

Only thing really missing is the alchemy... Any ideas on that?


https://www.reddit.com/r/DnD/comments/3982e2/5e_made_geralt_from_the_witcher_no_homebrew_full/?utm_source=amp&utm_medium=comment_list

ETA: If you work with your DM herbalist and alchemical tool proficiency would help there. Plus, hey, cheap healing potions.

[Arkhios]

I'd imagine that the witchers go through a rigorous training which includes exercises to improve their strength, so I would prefer having a high strength score and keep using Curse Bringer - even though the burst damage potential is rather huge (although, it's only additional slashing damage, and not radiant or force). As jaappleton said, due to very limited spell slots per long rest, it might not come up too often.

[Temperjoke]

UA Artificer has an Alchemist subclass, if that helps? I've never played the Witcher games so I don't know. Unfortunately it takes some investment in the class to get a variety of potions, but you'd also get other magical abilities, like infusing magic into items.

[Mikal]

I'd imagine that the witchers go through a rigorous training which includes exercises to improve their strength, so I would prefer having a high strength score and keep using Curse Bringer - even though the burst damage potential is rather huge (although, it's only additional slashing damage, and not radiant or force). As jaappleton said, due to very limited spell slots per long rest, it might not come up too often.

Yeah, Cursebringer doesn't really get scary unless you dip heavily into a full casting class like Sorcerer.

Either way, the link above should help with invocation and spell choices.

I'd make sure to get alchemical, herbalist, and poison kit proficiencies as well.

Together, those will give you the oil and potion feel of the Witcher, again, especially if the DM allows you to expand it out since you're technically a caster class of sorts.

At the very least, you'll be able to make several poisons, potions of healing, antivenom, and alchemical fire and acid which you could fluff as bombs.

If you go the potion and oil route more heavily, then I'd second taking Artificer and Alchemist to gain"improved" decoctions, potions, and oils.

Edited to Add: Or take the Alchemist feat.

Personally, I'm trying the same as you, more Bear than Viper school. I think I may take the Alchemist feat if I can fit it in after ASIs, Great Weapon Master, and Blade Master.

Still, if you wanted to, you could act as if you were Griffin or Viper and fluff Cha to hit and damage as more dex based, especially since your dex is going to be decent with that build regardless, using medium armor and the like.

[jaappleton]

UA Artificer has an Alchemist subclass, if that helps? I've never played the Witcher games so I don't know. Unfortunately it takes some investment in the class to get a variety of potions, but you'd also get other magical abilities, like infusing magic into items.

There's also the Alchemist feat from UA: Feats. Most people forget about that article, myself included.

There's a feat there titled Alchemist that lets you brew potions, but leaves it fairly open ended. It also lets you supercharge healing potions to heal for max.

[Arkhios]

There's also the Alchemist feat from UA: Feats. Most people forget about that article, myself included.

There's a feat there titled Alchemist that lets you brew potions, but leaves it fairly open ended. It also lets you supercharge healing potions to heal for max.

So did I, that sounds pretty good!

[jaappleton]

So did I, that sounds pretty good!

I only remember it because I took Blade Mastery on my Hexblade.

Though.... WOW! Spell-less Ranger with the Alchemy feat, doing max healing on his Poultices! DAMN that is good!

[Arkhios]

I only remember it because I took Blade Mastery on my Hexblade.

Though.... WOW! Spell-less Ranger with the Alchemy feat, doing max healing on his Poultices! DAMN that is good!

Oooooh! Nice!

[Arkhios]

@ Mikal:

I think I should note that I'm not exactly making a character like this anywhere at anytime soon (not until these are officially released, at least). It's just that I find it quite interesting to figure out how it might work, if it was final like the way it is.

I would probably go with variant human, and likely start with one level in fighter for saving throw, armor, and weapon proficiencies - even though it overlaps with Hexblade's proficiencies - but meh, big deal! It's the other treats that I'm after from Hexblade!

As a variant human feat I might take either the Alchemist or Great Weapon Master (although it might be a bit overkill from the start - greatsword deals already quite impressive damage).

The link you gave does indeed help quite a bit in regards to the spells at least, Invocations however are quite set in stone, since there are only a few I can take at any given time. It's a bit shame that Witch Sight takes so high level to take, though. It's quite appropriate for a Witcher :P

[JackPhoenix]

Blood Hunter, Order of the mutant? I mean, if that's not supposed to be a witcher, I don't know what is.

[Arkhios]

Blood Hunter, Order of the mutant? I mean, if that's not supposed to be a witcher, I don't know what is.

I could say that I'm not familiar with Blood Hunter, but that wouldn't be true. However, I don't exactly like that particular class at all, and I prefer to ignore it exists. Plus, since it's not official, I know for a fact that my DM wouldn't allow it anyway.

[spartan_ah]

igni will be the burning hex. hold person will represent axii.
i decided to take 7 levels of EK, gonna start soon from level 12-13. with war magic, SCAG cantrips heavy armor and beefy HP I will feel more tanky plus I will have 4 level 1 spell slots, 2 level 2 slots and 2 lever 3 slots every short rest.

I'll have 18 in STR and CHA (or 20-16, haven't decided yet) action surge and GWM. will give a paladin a run for his dollar.

I'll be thin on invocations, curse bringer for sure and the other 2 are either false life, magic weapon, or something else.

[Arkhios]

igni will be the burning hex. hold person will represent axii.
i decided to take 7 levels of EK, gonna start soon from level 12-13. with war magic, SCAG cantrips heavy armor and beefy HP I will feel more tanky plus I will have 4 level 1 spell slots, 2 level 2 slots and 2 lever 3 slots every short rest.

I'll have 18 in STR and CHA (or 20-16, haven't decided yet) action surge and GWM. will give a paladin a run for his dollar.

I'll be thin on invocations, curse bringer for sure and the other 2 are either false life, magic weapon, or something else.

Considering that Pact Magic and Spellcasting don't stack, that does indeed look pretty good. I might probably take 8th level in Fighter, just for the additional ASI goading at me otherwise :P

[spartan_ah]

GFB will do the igni, hold person/charm person axii.
EB with pushing can be aard although i wouldnt spend invocation and would take thunderwave.
quen id shield and nobody actually uses yrden :) maybe booming blade as a stretch

[Mikal]

Speak for yourself. Upgraded Yrden that does damage is awesome against Banshee's and other spirit type enemies that phase/teleport.

They get zapped, stunned for a moment, and I silver sword em to pieces easy peasy.

Especially if a) they're much higher level and/or b) there are several of them.

[Mikal]

@ Mikal:

I think I should note that I'm not exactly making a character like this anywhere at anytime soon (not until these are officially released, at least). It's just that I find it quite interesting to figure out how it might work, if it was final like the way it is.

Oh totally understandable. Still useful to have it ready to go though.



I would probably go with variant human, and likely start with one level in fighter for saving throw, armor, and weapon proficiencies - even though it overlaps with Hexblade's proficiencies - but meh, big deal! It's the other treats that I'm after from Hexblade!

I do the same, though I've been leaning towards half-elf for the stats, since with and w/o Cursebringer you'll want to have three high stats. Either Str/Con/Cha or Dex/Con/Cha.



As a variant human feat I might take either the Alchemist or Great Weapon Master (although it might be a bit overkill from the start - greatsword deals already quite impressive damage).

GWM will be better once you can get the pact weapon invocations to help you with the attack penalties, IMO, whereas the alchemist is a bit more flavorful, and, combined with herbalist kit, allows you to make very useful self healing, and decent healing to the party.

I'm personally trying to get GWM, Alchemist, and Blade Mastery for +1 hit (narrow the -5/+10 gap even further), and Str to 20, Cha to 18.

Fighting Style I chose was defensive, since Great Weapon Fighting only helps with the base damage, and AC is arguably better. With Blade Mastery you also get a +1 AC for your reaction, which you won't be using very often once you start burning spell slots for Curse Bringer, so with heavy armor that bumps you up to AC 20 reliably, before magic armor.



The link you gave does indeed help quite a bit in regards to the spells at least, Invocations however are quite set in stone, since there are only a few I can take at any given time. It's a bit shame that Witch Sight takes so high level to take, though. It's quite appropriate for a Witcher :P

Understandable. I'm in the same boat. However, you could just drop Burning Hex and GFB and burning hands for Igni Flavor and take Eldritch Sight earlier. Up to you of course.

Mechanically, I'd use Burning/Chilling only at low levels, and start swapping it out when Relentless Hex becomes available, since I'll be using my bonus actions on other things by then, like teleporting in and attempting attacks which can crit and firing off Cursebringer.

[Arkhios]

If only Thunderclap (Cantrip) could have maybe just a 5 feet push away from you with the price of lowering the damage to 1d4 per cantrip tier. Then it would work for Yrden, I think.

[Mikal]

If only Thunderclap (Cantrip) could have maybe just a 5 feet push away from you with the price of lowering the damage to 1d4 per cantrip tier. Then it would work for Yrden, I think.

You mean Aard? Yrden doesn't push people away really... slows them down and potentially does damage.

For Yrden you'd want to take Sea Sorcerer for 1 level, and then a cold cantrip, refluffed to look Yrden-like (but still doing the same damage). That way they get reduction of their land speed by 15 feet.

Edited to Add: Or just take Ray of Frost for 10 feet by itself. 25 if you put those together.

Granted, you won't *use* it often for the setup required and better things to do with your actions, still, when do people use Yrden anyway, except for Banshee's and the like?

[Arkhios]

You mean Aard? Yrden doesn't push people away really... slows them down and potentially does damage.

For Yrden you'd want to take Sea Sorcerer for 1 level, and then a cold cantrip, refluffed to look Yrden-like (but still doing the same damage). That way they get reduction of their land speed by 15 feet.

I've only just began playing Witcher 3, with no pre-knowledge of the game/series. I googled up what Yrden does, and one of the things (a Witcher fansite of sorts claimed) was that it knocks targets back and apparently it's drawn underneath you. Thunderclap has a 5 feet radius, centered on yourself so I thought it could fit with that minor change (following the same idea with Thunderwave, which deals greater damage and pushes for 10 feet).

[Mikal]

I've only just began playing Witcher 3, with no pre-knowledge of the game/series. I googled up what Yrden does, and one of the things (a Witcher fansite of sorts claimed) was that it knocks targets back and apparently it's drawn underneath you. Thunderclap has a 5 feet radius, centered on yourself so I thought it could fit with that minor change (following the same idea with Thunderwave, which deals greater damage and pushes for 10 feet).

You're right, it is drawn around you.

Game mechanics wise, anything that goes in the circle slows down heavily. You can upgrade it to cause damage and other status effects.

Very useful against the banshee/wraith type enemies.

You could always create a custom cantrip, using ray of frost as an example. Ranged spell attack, 1d8 cold type damage, -10 feet.

Change it to a radius like you said, make it a Wisdom Save DC, and say 1d4 Psychic damage with 10 ft. speed reduction?

But then that it potentially becomes stronger than Vicious Mockery since it affects everyone within 5 feet vs. a single target, so that doesn't work... Lose the damage entirely?

Hmm... Maybe not. Everyone in five feet vs. a single target at 60 seems to be about equal. And the slowdown vs. disadvantage on next attack also seems equal.

[spartan_ah]

re fluffed hunger of hadar will do the yrden part...

[Captain Morgan]

Hellish Rebuke could also do Igni. I'd snag Charm Person for Axii before Hold Person, as it's niche was really social encounters in game and you have plenty of combat stuff. Armor of Agathys is the obvious Quen. Aard options have been covered. Yrden could be Hunger of Hadar or Hypnotic Pattern. Booming Blade might be relevant as well.

I think Half Elf is a fine choice, because Witcher's are already mutated and inhuman.

On Cursebringer Smite damage: while the Warlock gets fewer spell slots, if he's getting the recommended short rests he's fine for spell slots and will do much, much more damage for his smites compared to the Paladin. (And if you aren't getting those short rests this is the wrong campaign for a Warlock.) While a paladin can spread his smite love out among more enemies, the Warlock already has more offensive options for crowd control he can use instead. Smites don't need to become the main event on the Warlock. They are just one more tool in an already versatile box, and that tool turns them into a crazy boss killer.

[Vaz]

Matt Mercer has made a Blood Hunter Class replete with Mutagens for a Witcher Analogue. I have played the Order of the Lycan and it worked nicely.

It is a little underpowered, but works very well in a game. It has some nice thematic abilities in a one shot, but the abilities don't come often enough to keep gameplay fresh and exciting, nor do you have nova abilities per se in the manner that a Champion Fighter or Paladin or Hexblade can just decide to go Ham on should you roll well. It is consistent damage, like a Warlock Autoattack Eldritch Blaster.

[Arkhios]

I already stated that I don't like the Blood Hunter (doesn't matter if it's underpowered or overpowered) ...and I'd really like to stick with material from WotC on this particular case - especially because it's possible that the Hexblade gets to be officially released at some point.

[Arkhios]

You could always create a custom cantrip, using ray of frost as an example. Ranged spell attack, 1d8 cold type damage, -10 feet.

Change it to a radius like you said, make it a Wisdom Save DC, and say 1d4 Psychic damage with 10 ft. speed reduction?

This is actually really cool idea as well.
Makes me want to make alternative 5 ft. burst (Save) versions of each single target effect-inducing attack cantrips; if you don't mind I'd like to "YOINK" the idea of Ray of Frost turned into burst :p

[Lombra]

I think that the ranger makes a better job at emulating a witcher.

[Mikal]

This is actually really cool idea as well.
Makes me want to make alternative 5 ft. burst (Save) versions of each single target effect-inducing attack cantrips; if you don't mind I'd like to "YOINK" the idea of Ray of Frost turned into burst :p

*shrug* have at it, don't need my permission, just the DMs. Glad to be of assistance there.

[Arkhios]

*shrug* have at it, don't need my permission, just the DMs. Glad to be of assistance there.

True. Although I do DM occasionally so I might allow them. And when I do, I prefer having balance with all things related :p

[Mikal]

Well I appreciate you thinking my ideas are balanced then! :smallsmile:

More Witcher ideas- Bombs from DMG page 267.
60 ft. range, everything within 5 ft. of area it hits takes 3d6 fire damage unless they make a DC 12 Dex Save. Save = no damage.

Perfect for all your monster nest destroying needs!

For different Witcher Bomb types, allow the character (if they have alchemy kits and proficiency) to combine say, Alchemical fire effect or acid effect to those bombs at higher levels, or perhaps improve the fire damage or save DC.

Personally I'd also have them need alchemy to make the bombs themselves, but then I just like those tool proficiencies to be useful.

If they have poison proficiency, maybe allow them to create silver ("Diametrium") Bombs and/or poison bombs at higher levels.

Damage on the bombs is ok, but as a Warlock unless they multi heavy into another class will still only be one attack per round, with an easy Dex save, so you won't have to worry about someone becoming a grenadier, especially depending on the price to make them.

Also makes a nice gold sink too, since gold is mostly useless this edition.

[Draco4472]

The mechanics seem befitting to me, having played the 3rd to death and almost finishing the 2nd. Perhaps reflavoring a lot of the innvocations would help with this build, such as having burning hex be the result of runes on your sword or a small blast of igni, and freezing hex being a northern wind bomb, but any bladelock with the spells charm person, eldtritch blast with the eldtritch spear innvocation (or whichever oushes 10ft), firebolt/burning hands, shield, and a spell to take the place of Yrden can basically be a witcher. Curse bringer is surprisingly fitting for this built, though a longsword makes more sense for it flavor-wise.

I myself would make a blood hunter/Hexblade multiclass, or perhaps ranger/hexblade, for a witcher, but the power of reflavoring features could make all sorts of build viable. Stone sorcerer/Hexbalde could be a stronger quen, and Scout rogue could add tracking flavor, with expertise in perception being a result of the mutations witchers go through.