Does a Lich know when its phylactery is taken? [Archive]

gary0509

2017-02-28, 07:17 PM

This subject line pretty much says it all.

I see where it's denoted that damage being done to the phylactery instantly notifies the lich (via damage to the lich), but nothing about the moment it is taken. I do see they get bonuses to divine where it is, but again no awareness when moved. If a confident lich feels that it can never be discovered then it would not know to look except periodically for other reasons beyond sentiment.

So therefor it's possible that a rogue might find a valuable gemstone and make off with it, not knowing there was a lich's soul inside. Someone might detect there was powerful necromatic magic radiating from it, but the lich would still be unaware it was not where he/she left it.

How 'bout that?

KillianHawkeye

2017-02-28, 07:41 PM

I've got to assume that any lich worth their salt is at least gonna put an alarm spell on that thing.

gary0509

2017-02-28, 07:47 PM

Only caveat there is the lich must remain within 1 mile of the phylactery to hear the mental alarm ping.

Jack_Simth

2017-02-28, 07:58 PM

Keep in mind: Edition matters. 3.0, 3.5, Pathfinder?

Where do you like to get your lich lore from?

Necroticplague

2017-02-28, 08:09 PM

A lich's phylactery is entirely seperate from the Lich's as long as it unlives. A Lich doesn't have any kind of special connection to it in a relevant way when it's up and walking. Damaging a phylactery doesn't hurt the lich. Heck, even completely destroying the phylactery doesn't harm the lich.
Similarly, lichs don't have any ability to know where it is automatically.

I believe Xykon put it best: "Go ahead. Unless my soul's inside it, it's nothing but a pretty little bauble." Which actually brings up a kinda relevant example (Since, last we saw him, he lost his, and is now looking for it manually. Obviously, the comic cleaves from the rules often, but it tends to be pretty good on major points like this).

legomaster00156

2017-02-28, 08:15 PM

(Since, last we saw him, he lost his, and is now looking for it manually. Obviously, the comic cleaves from the rules often, but it tends to be pretty good on major points like this).
You seem to have missed a few strips...

Zanos

2017-02-28, 08:20 PM

I see where it's denoted that damage being done to the phylactery instantly notifies the lich (via damage to the lich), but nothing about the moment it is taken. I do see they get bonuses to divine where it is, but again no awareness when moved. If a confident lich feels that it can never be discovered then it would not know to look except periodically for other reasons beyond sentiment.
None of that sounds like 3.5. I'm not aware of those rules being anywhere, and I've never heard of a Lich being damaged when their phylactery is. Source?

In general I would expect that a Lich, which is an inherently paranoid and old spellcaster, would have enough protective spells on their own Phylactery that you couldn't just pick it up.

gary0509

2017-02-28, 08:23 PM

Sounds like the consensus is the lich would only know if he added some component to the phylactery that would notify in some way. He could have it as a gem in a cursed item like the Amulet of Inescapable Location, with some alarm component added. He'd still have to be within one mile. But if it is taken while he is away it would be easy for him to find with the cursed item.

As for where my lich lives, it's in 3.5 classic.

My reference to damage to the phylactery = damage to the lich might have come from a pathfinder page. Plz disregard.

Deophaun

2017-02-28, 08:35 PM

The liches I play tend to have their phylacteries hidden inside an animated object with a Contingent Spell that goes off when the container the animated object is hidden in is breached. This teleports the animated object to a chamber with a skull upon which skull watch was cast. At that point, a second contingency on the animated object activates summoning a celestial monkey, tripping the skull watch and letting me know my phylactery was disturbed from anywhere on the plane.

I did come upon one way to do this where it would notify me even across planes, but I have since forgotten.

legomaster00156

2017-02-28, 09:04 PM

In Pathfinder, damage to a phylactery is not also dealt to its lich. :smallconfused:

Krobar

2017-02-28, 09:19 PM

My liches tend to be pretty smart. They can cast 9th level spells, and always know Wish.

I wish that in the event my philactery's location is discovered by anyone not presently knowledgeable of its whereabouts, it be immediately teleported across space and time to (another hidden location, very far away, probably on another plane).

There are a few others too, layered on. I make it REALLY hard to get to them. Even harder to destroy them. You see, liches are usually ancient, and very smart, and mine aren't afraid to take great pains to protect them.

One could wish for all kinds of things... One of my favorites is knowledge. Don't underestimate that. At all.

legomaster00156

2017-02-28, 10:00 PM

One could wish for all kinds of things... One of my favorites is knowledge. Don't underestimate that. At all.
I dunno, a +1 Intelligence boost is nice and all, but...

Krobar

2017-02-28, 11:05 PM

I dunno, a +1 Intelligence boost is nice and all, but...

Knowledge about a specific subject. Not an Intelligence bonus.

Mordaedil

2017-03-02, 04:16 AM

My liches tend to be pretty smart. They can cast 9th level spells, and always know Wish.

That's quite a feat for a level 11 wizard.

TheifofZ

2017-03-02, 04:40 AM

Assuming average Joe is turned into a lich, unless he keeps his phylactery on him, no. He could not have any method of determining when someone else has happened upon and mess with his phylactery.

Assuming an 11th level Wizard is the lich, however, it would be reasonable to assume that he likely has a pile of spells set to ward and guard his phylactery, at least one of which would note that it's actually been moved. Likely also Arcane Mark, to allow easy locating.

On more 'well protected' levels, my Lich prefers a mixture of subtlety and contingencies, though obviously he's no longer just level 11.
Start with a slew of protective spells, and an Arcane mark. Wrap in a small box of lead. Cover the lead box with Contingencies to teleport without error when disturbed, preferably to a lead-lined chamber sealed off beneath a small tomb in the middle of nowhere, with another Contingency to alert me as soon as the box teleports.

It's not ostentatious, so it won't draw adventurers like flies. It's warded so that most methods of locating it fail. Short of some of the strongest spells, or the worst sort of luck, it's not going anywhere any time soon. And if the spells they're using to find it include Wish, then at that point either the Lich can throw around spells just as strong, or he's screwed anyway and it doesn't matter how much effort is put into it.

Digging your way out of a deep grave in the middle of bum-end nowhere might not be, you know, the best situation ever, but it definitely beats staying dead.

Mordaedil

2017-03-02, 04:51 AM

These are the adventures of Average Joe, the Accidental Lich.

Oh god, why are tears springing from my eyes?

TheifofZ

2017-03-02, 05:05 AM

Oh, god. I want to see that now, actually. For the love of schadenfreude.

Stealth Marmot

2017-03-02, 07:34 AM

A lich does not have any sort of mental bond with the phylactery except when its destroyed and that is most likely because he suddenly feels his soul getting shunted back into his body, so yes actually TAKING the phylactery and not destroying it immediately does mean that the lich doesn't necessarily know it was taken. In fact, that makes for a good plot hook if some rogue ends up with a funny bauble and it turns out to be a phylactery.

But realistically, a lich will keep tabs on the thing. That said, it actually makes for good strategy for taking down a lich. Grab the phylactery, and don't destroy it until you're ready to ambush him so he doesn't know people are after him until that point. Obviously this requires planning but hey, when you are tasked with killing some hyper powerful undead sorcerer, plans are a good thing.

Mr Adventurer

2017-03-02, 07:43 AM

Krobar

2017-03-02, 08:36 AM

That's quite a feat for a level 11 wizard.

Who says they're 11th level Wizards? They certainly aren't in MY games. They're typically 18th level or higher. But that's MY games. YMMV.

Mordaedil

2017-03-02, 08:43 AM

Who says they're 11th level Wizards? They certainly aren't in MY games. They're typically 18th level or higher. But that's MY games. YMMV.

Monster manual declares any caster of 11th level can become a lich,which is incredibly vague and at MY games they are also required to perform a feat of irredeemable evil act to become one.

Otherwise I'd just allow baelnorns.

Stealth Marmot

2017-03-02, 08:44 AM

This is a house rule.

You're right. I forgot to read over the text.

Psyren

2017-03-02, 09:10 AM

In Pathfinder, damage to a phylactery is not also dealt to its lich. :smallconfused:

Yeah, I have no idea where OP's rules are coming from.

As far as I can determine, you can steal, damage or even destroy a phylactery outright without the Lich being aware that you have done so unless they have taken special precautions otherwise.

Deophaun

2017-03-02, 09:23 AM

It's not ostentatious, so it won't draw adventurers like flies. It's warded so that most methods of locating it fail. Short of some of the strongest spells, or the worst sort of luck, it's not going anywhere any time soon. And if the spells they're using to find it include Wish, then at that point either the Lich can throw around spells just as strong it's his own fault as the lich should have used secret chest to lose the thing to the ethereal plane.
A proper lich protects its phylactery even from wish.

Also, Contingencies need to be placed on a creature, not an object.

A contingent spell is a single-use, one-spell magical effect instilled within a speciﬁc willing creature.
That's why you need to use animate object.

Âmesang

2017-03-02, 10:16 AM

Sounds like a good time to bring back Slerotin's fortitude from AD&D; encase the phylactery in an otherwise "solid" object of a singular substance with no cracks, creases, crevices, &c., and then cast Slerotin's fortitude to make the substance impervious to physical or magical damage (such as disintegrate or earthquake).

Only wish can bring down the ward, but you can cast the spell on the same area multiple times, thus requiring multiple wishes.

Krobar

2017-03-02, 08:53 PM

Monster manual declares any caster of 11th level can become a lich,which is incredibly vague and at MY games they are also required to perform a feat of irredeemable evil act to become one.

Otherwise I'd just allow baelnorns.

That doesn't mean every lich is an 11th level caster. In our games liches are about as bad as it gets. Very old, very intelligent, very powerful, very rare, extremely evil, extremely hard to defeat. With 9th level spells, contingencies, buffs all the time, and plenty of servants, both undead and otherwise.

Even in epic levels, nobody in our games ever wants to have to tangle with a lich, including me when I'm not running the game.

Dagroth

2017-03-02, 11:22 PM

1) Pick up phylactery
2) Cast Persistant Fly
3) Fly to the Moon
4) Hide phylactery
5) Profit!

Or, you know, turn the plaque on the Voyager Space Probe into your Horcrux (http://www.hpmor.com/).

Jack_Simth

2017-03-02, 11:47 PM

Or, you know, turn the plaque on the Voyager Space Probe into your Horcrux (http://www.hpmor.com/).Problem: A Horcrux is not a phylactery. It requires not only a murder to make, it requires a sacrifice to build your new body. If you send it flying off into space, a zillion miles from anybody... you're missing the second half of making it work.

Side note: A Horcrux is a variation on memory copy immortality. It doesn't rebuild you, it makes a new you, based on the you that made the Horcrux. Why, that book was even working on making a new V while the original V was still running around (admittedly, severely weakened). There's little point in a Horcurx, as it suffers very badly from the continuity flaw.

Zanos

2017-03-03, 12:23 AM

Problem: A Horcrux is not a phylactery.
Similar idea, but that's about where it ends, yeah.

Side note: A Horcrux is a variation on memory copy immortality. It doesn't rebuild you, it makes a new you, based on the you that made the Horcrux. Why, that book was even working on making a new V while the original V was still running around (admittedly, severely weakened). There's little point in a Horcurx, as it suffers very badly from the continuity flaw.
That doesn't seem right. Horcruxes anchor (what's left) of your soul to the real world and prevent it from passing on, but when Voldemort is restored to physical form it's clearly with the memories of his past 14 years as an incorporeal spirit, and the portion of his soul that was restored was the non-horcrux main part.

Bucky

2017-03-03, 12:37 AM

This sounds like fodder for an epic bluff.

Lich: And now I will destroy you...
Rogue: Oh, did I mention that if we don't return to our secret base by noon, our wizard friend will distintegrate your phylactery?
Lich: Impossible! My phylactary is in a sealed and alarmed adamantine box at the bottom of the ocean layered with the best anti-divination magic on the plane, with so many contingencies on it that no mortal could unravel them in a lifetime.
Rogue: Well, it was. Some of those contingencies were a real pain to analyze.

Bohandas

2017-03-03, 01:19 AM

The liches I play tend to have their phylacteries hidden inside an animated object with a Contingent Spell that goes off when the container the animated object is hidden in is breached. This teleports the animated object to a chamber with a skull upon which skull watch was cast. At that point, a second contingency on the animated object activates summoning a celestial monkey, tripping the skull watch and letting me know my phylactery was disturbed from anywhere on the plane.

That's like if Koschei the Deathless was deaigned by Rube Goldberg

gary0509

2017-03-03, 02:12 AM

Dagroth

2017-03-03, 02:23 AM

Okay.
With all of everyone's magic buffs on the phylactery what's to stop a cleric with anti-magic field cast upon herself/himself from just walking up and taking it?

Just mundane traps and monsters?
Yeah...I thought so.:smallamused:

If it's at the bottom of the ocean, the Cleric can't go there while in an anti-magic field. And if he casts it when he gets there... worse result.

If it's on the moon, even more impossible to get to.

Mordaedil

2017-03-03, 02:27 AM

That doesn't mean every lich is an 11th level caster. In our games liches are about as bad as it gets. Very old, very intelligent, very powerful, very rare, extremely evil, extremely hard to defeat. With 9th level spells, contingencies, buffs all the time, and plenty of servants, both undead and otherwise.

Even in epic levels, nobody in our games ever wants to have to tangle with a lich, including me when I'm not running the game.

I'm not saying that? I'm just saying level 11 is the earliest point of entry for a lich. I think it's fine to have liches be badass and ancient, but the thing in D&D is that there are still younger people becoming liches and I'm wondering what do they do in your game, sit and hide until they reach a good level for thousands of years?

Vizzerdrix

2017-03-03, 02:44 AM

If it's at the bottom of the ocean, the Cleric can't go there while in an anti-magic field. And if he casts it when he gets there... worse result.

If it's on the moon, even more impossible to get to.

Depends on race. A warforged cleric wouldnt mind a deep stroll too much.

Calthropstu

2017-03-03, 04:18 AM

Here's a question. If the phylactery were in an antimagic field at the time of his death, would the lich be destroyed?

Deophaun

2017-03-03, 05:03 AM

That's like if Koschei the Deathless was deaigned by Rube Goldberg
If a plan doesn't involve a celestial monkey, can it still be called a plan?

Jack_Simth

2017-03-03, 07:37 AM

That doesn't seem right. Horcruxes anchor (what's left) of your soul to the real world and prevent it from passing on, but when Voldemort is restored to physical form it's clearly with the memories of his past 14 years as an incorporeal spirit, and the portion of his soul that was restored was the non-horcrux main part.When he's restored, it's due to a very specific ritual by a minion (which made use of V's broken form, even), not because of a Horcrux acting on it's own.

Zanos

2017-03-03, 09:16 AM

When he's restored, it's due to a very specific ritual by a minion (which made use of V's broken form, even), not because of a Horcrux acting on it's own.
As I understood, this was always the intent. The horcruxes were never meant to restore the users life by themselves, they only prevented death.

Necroticplague

2017-03-03, 09:38 AM

Here's a question. If the phylactery were in an antimagic field at the time of his death, would the lich be destroyed?
A lich is always distroyed when it's body is. All the phylactery does is let him make a new body later.

However, assuming you meant "can the lich still come back if his phylactery is in an AMF", Libris Mortis covers this exact situation.

A lich can construct only a single phylactery. A lich whose phylactery is destroyed suffers no harm, but cannot construct a new one. If a lich without a phylactery is slain, the lich is forever destroyed. A phylactery in an antimagic field cannot recreate a destroyed lich, though the lich returns to life 1d10 days after the phylactery is removed from the area.

Krobar

2017-03-03, 01:59 PM

Zanos

2017-03-03, 02:03 PM

I'm not saying that? I'm just saying level 11 is the earliest point of entry for a lich. I think it's fine to have liches be badass and ancient, but the thing in D&D is that there are still younger people becoming liches and I'm wondering what do they do in your game, sit and hide until they reach a good level for thousands of years?
To be fair, the reason most liches become liches is because they're wizards near the end of their lifespan and want to continue to study magic. So...yes. Sit down for a few decades/centuries while you lay low in your tower is the MO for the majority of liches, I would imagine.

I know that other classes qualify to become liches, but canon liches are pretty overwhelmingly wizards that fit that bill.

Jack_Simth

2017-03-03, 06:47 PM

As I understood, this was always the intent. The horcruxes were never meant to restore the users life by themselves, they only prevented death.And yet, the book was busily working on a brand-new body, from scratch, when Harry & Company interrupted - despite V still being half-alive elsewhere.

Zanos

2017-03-03, 07:14 PM

And yet, the book was busily working on a brand-new body, from scratch, when Harry & Company interrupted - despite V still being half-alive elsewhere.
Sure was, but that's a side effect rather than the primary purpose of creating a horcrux. It's not immortality by copying yourself because the main soul endures and can be restored to physical form. It creates copies as a side effect, and none of the other Horcruxes exhibit that behavior. Voldemort's main soul that contains his psyche cannot be banished unless all of his horcruxes are destroyed, that's the entire reason they have to go after them in the first place.

KillianHawkeye

2017-03-04, 12:17 AM

Yeah, the diary was an exception to standard horcrux behavior likely caused by Voldemort putting a piece of his own soul into a magical book that already contained the memories of his 16 year old self.

It might not even have known that it was a horcrux, it just thought (based on the story of Voldemort's apparent death) that it was the last remaining vestige of Voldemort's mind and it decided to take revenge. Bringing himself back to life wasn't even his main goal, it was more like a convenient bonus.

I think the diary, Voldemort's pet snake, and Harry himself were the only horcruxes that possessed actual sentience.

dhasenan

2017-03-04, 01:31 AM

That doesn't seem right. Horcruxes anchor (what's left) of your soul to the real world and prevent it from passing on, but when Voldemort is restored to physical form it's clearly with the memories of his past 14 years as an incorporeal spirit, and the portion of his soul that was restored was the non-horcrux main part.

I believe Jack_Simth was talking about a specific AU fanfic of the Harry Potter series and stated one way in which it diverges from Harry Potter canon, without properly specifying that it was a divergence from canon.

As for phylacteries, another option is to turn yours into an item familiar.

Dappershire

2017-03-04, 05:17 AM

Three words: Phylachtery Exchange Program.

Find a like minded Lich that is not in your general abandoned castle/cave complex area. Give him your skeletor rebirthing necklace, and take his in trade.
Wear it.
Adventurers come in, slay you. Find your necklace radiating heavy necromantic energies. Party mage or cleric is like "What a noob, wearing his own phylactery." and they destroy it.
You come back in your ally's base. "Sorry bro, got ganked. Ima go on a murder spree while you build another one. Mind if I borrow some of your undead army? Thanks, I'll hit you back."
Profit.

danzibr

2017-03-04, 06:34 AM

I've got to assume that any lich worth their salt is at least gonna put an alarm spell on that thing.
Whoa, I was getting into this thread to say, "Any lich worth their salt ..." and the very first reply uses this exact line! Nice.

zergling.exe

2017-03-04, 06:56 AM