Surprise surpirse

[Dmdork]

I enter a dimly lit room. My passive is not enough to notice this goblin behind a desk, he's hiding. Initiative gets rolled, goblin goes in the first round. Does he get advantage on his crossbow attack, as he gets up and fires? Yeah, he's visible when he gets up, but he's still within dimly lit area. Of course after the attack I would say he's visible. Would giving the goblin advantage on the attack be a DMs call?

[Malifice]

The attack is resolved with advantage. He only reveals himself after the attack is resolved (hit or miss).

[retaliation08]

Considering the information supplied, I would rule that the goblin gets a surprise round before initiative is rolled, with any attack rolls being made at advantage until normal initiative order begins.

[Mellack]

There is no surprise round. People can be surprised, but that just means they cannot take action on the first round.
By the info listed, your character sounds like they would be surprised. The goblin attacks with advantage.

[Malifice]

Considering the information supplied, I would rule that the goblin gets a surprise round before initiative is rolled, with any attack rolls being made at advantage until normal initiative order begins.

This is a rules question mate. There is no such thing as a surprise round and you can't make attacks outside of initiative order and you don't get advantage on account of surprising a creature.

Also, id leave a game that imposed such silly rules.

[Steampunkette]

PHB page 189, Malifice.

Surprise

The DM determines who might be surprised. If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other. Otherwise, the DM compares the Dexterity (Stealth) checks of anyone hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) score of each creature on the opposing side. Any character or monster that doesn’t notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter.

If you’re surprised, you can’t move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can’t take a reaction until that turn ends. A member of a group can be surprised even if the other members aren’t.

[Steampunkette]

Though... Hmm... Can you take a Bonus action while surprised? It doesn't explicitly state that you can't and it would be a good time to throw out a Hex or activate Barbarian Rage if you can't do anything else.

[Malifice]

PHB page 189, Malifice.

Surprise

The DM determines who might be surprised. If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other. Otherwise, the DM compares the Dexterity (Stealth) checks of anyone hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) score of each creature on the opposing side. Any character or monster that doesn’t notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter.

If you’re surprised, you can’t move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can’t take a reaction until that turn ends. A member of a group can be surprised even if the other members aren’t.

I know the rules. Read it again. There is no such thing as a surprise round, you can't make surprise attacks outside of initiative order, and you don't get advantage for attacking a surprised foe.

[Steampunkette]

It's a Surprise Round in everything but Name. Though you're right about advantage: Only the first attack would be made with advantage and that's only because you're coming out of Hidden.

[Malifice]

It's a Surprise Round in everything but Name. Though you're right about advantage: Only the first attack would be made with advantage and that's only because you're coming out of Hidden.

It's not a surprise round. It's round one of the combat.

During which some participants in the combat may be surprised.

5 orcs are hidden in some bushes (Stealth check result 15). As the PCs approach the Orcs shoot them with bows. One PC has passive perception 16, the others are 14 or less.

Initiative is rolled. For the Orcs and PCs. Before any attacks are resolved.

Passive perception 16 PC acts on his turn 1 of round 1 normally, as do the Orcs (at which point we resolve those bow attacks). The other PCs are surprised on round 1 and can neither move or take actions on their turns.

It's just round 1 of the combat. Sometimes some creatures can be surprised during round 1. But it's not a surprise round.

[Malifice]

And it's not merely semantics.

Many DMs run these made up surprise rounds where you get attacked outside of the combat sequence and initiative order.

This deprives people with high initiative values from using reactions in response to the attacks. Things like deflect arrows; sentinel, shield spell and hellish rebuke etc.

When someone declares a hostile act, the DM narrates the act (the Orc goes for his weapon!) and calls for initiative. Then he determines surprise. Then (in initiative order) turns are taken for round 1.

[ad_hoc]

And it's not merely semantics.

Many DMs run these made up surprise rounds where you get attacked outside of the combat sequence and initiative order.

This deprives people with high initiative values from using reactions in response to the attacks. Things like deflect arrows; sentinel, shield spell and hellish rebuke etc.

When someone declares a hostile act, the DM narrates the act (the Orc goes for his weapon!) and calls for initiative. Then he determines surprise. Then (in initiative order) turns are taken for round 1.

Yes, and don't forget Assassinate. You need to surprise them and win initiative to get an auto-crit on hit because they are no longer surprised once they have had their turn.

People run it as being surprised for the entire round but that is not the case.

[Desamir]

Yes, and don't forget Assassinate. You need to surprise them and win initiative to get an auto-crit on hit because they are no longer surprised once they have had their turn.

People run it as being surprised for the entire round but that is not the case.

Yeah, not a fan of Assassin for exactly this reason.

[Arkhios]

It's not as much a Surprise Round as it is a Surprise Turn nowadays. It's a subtle change.

There's a difference between a Round and a Turn, which many people seem to not realise: a round affects everyone, while a turn is individual. An individual can be surprised on his turn, while others were not on theirs - all that within same round.

A Surprise Round would cause an additional round to occur, where only those not surprised would get to act, effectively giving them additional turns. I honestly think this new approach is better.

[Kane0]

Gobbo begins turn hidden, attacks with advantage and ends his turn unhidden.
Adventurer gets no turn because he is surprised.
Round two begins, goblin goes first (unless you roll init for every round)

[mephnick]

Yeah, not a fan of Assassin for exactly this reason.

It's an over-hyped subclass, to the point where I believe it's the worst Rogue path currently available.

Though if your DM doesn't understand the surprise rules, it's the best.

[Mellack]

Gobbo begins turn hidden, attacks with advantage and ends his turn unhidden.
Adventurer gets no turn because he is surprised.
Round two begins, goblin goes first (unless you roll init for every round)

Note that this is only the events if Gobbo wins Init.

[hymer]

Though... Hmm... Can you take a Bonus action while surprised? It doesn't explicitly state that you can't and it would be a good time to throw out a Hex or activate Barbarian Rage if you can't do anything else.

If you're prevented from taking actions, you're also prevented from taking bonus actions (PHB p. 189).

[ProphetSword]

Adventurer gets no turn because he is surprised.


This is actually incorrect. The adventurer still gets his turn, he just can't take actions or move. You might think it doesn't matter, but if the goblin had cast a spell that allowed the adventurer a saving throw at the end of his turn, it definitely would.

[coredump]

I enter a dimly lit room. My passive is not enough to notice this goblin behind a desk, he's hiding. Initiative gets rolled, goblin goes in the first round. Does he get advantage on his crossbow attack, as he gets up and fires? Yeah, he's visible when he gets up, but he's still within dimly lit area. Of course after the attack I would say he's visible. Would giving the goblin advantage on the attack be a DMs call?

This is a whole bunch of "It depends".

If I were DMing, the most likely ruling would be giving the Goblin Advantage and your PC the Surprised 'condition'.

But neither of those are required via RAW. I could rule that in order to shoot, he has to stand up enough that he is not hidden, so perhaps Surprise but no Advantage.
Or if your PC heavily suspected that the Goblin what there, perhaps he gets advantage, but no Surprise.
Or maybe you had no idea, so I might also give him advantage on his Init roll.

Or whatever combination seems to fit the situation.

[retaliation08]

This is a rules question mate. There is no such thing as a surprise round and you can't make attacks outside of initiative order and you don't get advantage on account of surprising a creature.

Also, id leave a game that imposed such silly rules.

Woah man, no need to be hostile. I'd leave a game that imposed such hostility haha.

Seriously though, the advantage is coming from the goblin being hidden from the PC.

So they roll initiative and PC is surprised and does nothing. Goblin still gets advantage for being hidden until it attacks or is otherwise revealed to the PC.



Note that this is only the events if Gobbo wins Init.

Not sure what you are getting at here, but the PC should be surprised on his first turn regardless of initiative roll. Rolling initiative is Meta. The PC has no idea combat is happening until he encounters the goblin.

Or maybe I missed what you were saying.

[Mellack]

I was just pointing out that you assumed the goblin won initiative in your example. It could instead be that the character wins. This is very important in the case of assassins.

[retaliation08]

Well, the assassin could win initiative, but would still be surprised andunable to act.

[Tanarii]

IMO the goblin is no longer hidden. It has stood up and attacked, and that's what started combat, and caused initiative to be rolled.

Even if he agreed with my IMO, a generous DM might still give the goblin advantage for being hidden before it initiated combat. But that's not a given by any means. There's lots of interpretations on how popping up from hiding works exactly.

It's also worth noting that the surprise check of dexterity (stealth) vs passive perception is not necessarily the same as a hiding check, despite using the same ability score check.

Regardless, The goblin does get surprise, since it won a dexterity (stealth) check vs passive perception to determine surprise. If the player wins initiative, is no longer surprised after his turn and can take reactions normally in response to the goblin's attack. Otherwise he can't. That's the straightforward way surprise works regardless of the hiding aspect.

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Note a high enough level barbarian that wins initiative* can rage and act normally, attacking the goblin before its turn. The barbarian knows the goblin is there, because it's initiated combat. The barbarian just instinctively reacted faster than the goblin could complete its standing and attack.

As a DM, I've let barbarians rage to cancel surprise then attack creatures there's no reason to assume it would know we're there. Even when its not particularly reasonable to assume that the act of initiating combat actually would cause even a split second of awareness before the attack occurred, so the attacking creature would still be hidden right up to its initiative count. Specifically a loaded crossbow attack from darkness with nothing happening except the crossbow trigger being pulled. I did it because the Barbarian has this class feature, so I decided rule of cool let it work as it says. And also I'm a fan of the rules being an abstraction, so it's just as easy for me to explain it as something giving away the creature, giving the barbarian that split second. Conversely, I can totally see a DM saying in that specific case the Barbarian doesn't know where the target it because it is still hidden prior to its attack, as it's done nothing to give away its position at all.

*Edit: specified I'm talking about a barb that wins initiative here.

[LudicSavant]

Though... Hmm... Can you take a Bonus action while surprised? It doesn't explicitly state that you can't and it would be a good time to throw out a Hex or activate Barbarian Rage if you can't do anything else.

You explicitly cannot take a bonus action while surprised. Right there in the PHB.