Paladin/Bard or Paladin/Sorc?

[Navigator]

I am torn on the direction to take my Paladin, and hoping to get some insight on whether to continue on as a Bard (Lore) or Sorceror (Draconic Bloodline). I can consider Storm Sorceror, but I don't think it'd fit the character thematically.

This character plays a melee control/support role. With the spells I get from either Sorceror or Bard, I plan on them being mostly good buff spells, utility, or non-attribute based offensive spells. My damage is going to come mostly from smiting anyway, so no sense investing too much in direct damage spells. As far as feats are concerned, I have 2 more in the course of this character's career and am open to suggestions if they are relevant to picking between Sorc/Bard.

I currently have:


Variant Human Paladin (Crown Oath) 9
Feat picks are Resilient (Con), Polearm Master and Sentinel
Stats are 16/8/14/10/10/16
This is an AL legal character, my +1 is SCAG
I (will) have full plate +2, glaive +1, cloak of displacement, ring of protection
Could use some awards to give him gauntlets of ogre power


Positives I see from Bard (Lore):


Both quantity and quality of spells here are better for me, especially as a Lore Bard
Expertise in Athletics means I can reliably knock enemies prone with my "butt" attack
Much better skills in general and initiative between Jack of all Trades / Expertise picks
Not crazy about Inspiration / Song of Rest as a hybrid, but a nice gimme if there are no other Bards


Positives I see from Sorceror (Draconic Bloodline):


Metamagics are extremely useful, specifically Quicken / Twinned Spell since this is a very action-economy intensive build
+1 hp per level keeps my HP almost par with continuing in Paladin
More diverse cantrip picks


I am currently leaning Lore Bard because it looks SO good on paper, but I keep thinking about how awesome it'll be to throw quickened spirit guardians, twinned shield of faith, twinned greater invisibility, or really surprise the DM with a subtle counterspell.

Update: I have settled on choosing Bard for advancement, but the community has brought to my attention that picking up Improved Smite with Paladin 11/Bard 9 may be better, so I asked in a later post to dig into this decision.

[miburo]

Given you've already invested in Polearm and Sentinel and are at level 9, I would strongly consider getting to level 11 at least in Paladin before you make any changes. The additional damage from Improved Divine Smite is just too good to give up, as it applies to your 2 main attacks, your bonus polearm attack, and any reaction attacks you'd make with your feats.

After that it's worth considering multiclassing. Might be good to add in level 12 Paladin just for the ASI. Probably Charisma if you are already planning on getting Gauntlets of Ogre Power. Alternatively get Amulet of Health to boost your HP and concentration saves, and then either Strength or Charisma for the feat.

In terms of the add-on class, have you also considered going Warlock in order to get a nice ranged attack (Eldritch Blast + Agonizing Blast), and additional short-rest slots for smiting? Invocations could also add some utility out of combat. If it works thematically for your character of course.

The problem with Sorc is that Quicken spell is already competing with your bonus action from Polearm Master. That said, it does give you increased versatility with metamagic and more ranged damage options.

Bard also suffers from action economy (e.g. cutting words competes with sentinel), but does provide you considerable out-of-combat versatility. No new skills but jack of all trades and expertise are nice. lQ: With a Bard's expertise, how are you knocking enemies prone with the polearm "butt" attack? thought it was just pure damage dealing.

tl;dr Go to 11th or 12th level in Paladin, at that point really depends on your party's needs. If skills are a weakness go Bard. For more in-combat utility go Sorc. For a blend of in-combat and out-of-combat utility look at Warlock.

[Dudu]

I'd rate bard as a superior option over sorcerer. Sorcerer metamagic is really good to dedicated sorcerers, imo. For dip, it's only one trick a day and that's it.

Bard will get you one extra skill, instrument proficiency, jack of all trades... Bard's spells are handy too. Magical secrets is one of the best class feature for multiclassing characters.

Paladins who go as far as you did follow miburo's advice, that is, taking that improved smite.

[Asmotherion]

Take into accound that the Sorcerer's font of magic effectivelly creates more spell slots for you to use DS or quicken Booming/Green-Flame Blade for more damage.

[Citan]

I am torn on the direction to take my Paladin, and hoping to get some insight on whether to continue on as a Bard (Lore) or Sorceror (Draconic Bloodline). I can consider Storm Sorceror, but I don't think it'd fit the character thematically.

This character plays a melee control/support role. With the spells I get from either Sorceror or Bard, I plan on them being mostly good buff spells, utility, or non-attribute based offensive spells. My damage is going to come mostly from smiting anyway, so no sense investing too much in direct damage spells. As far as feats are concerned, I have 2 more in the course of this character's career and am open to suggestions if they are relevant to picking between Sorc/Bard.

I currently have:


Variant Human Paladin (Crown Oath) 9
Feat picks are Resilient (Con), Polearm Master and Sentinel
Stats are 16/8/14/10/10/16
This is an AL legal character, my +1 is SCAG
I (will) have full plate +2, glaive +1, cloak of displacement, ring of protection
Could use some awards to give him gauntlets of ogre power


Positives I see from Bard (Lore):


Both quantity and quality of spells here are better for me, especially as a Lore Bard
Expertise in Athletics means I can reliably knock enemies prone with my "butt" attack
Much better skills in general and initiative between Jack of all Trades / Expertise picks
Not crazy about Inspiration / Song of Rest as a hybrid, but a nice gimme if there are no other Bards


Positives I see from Sorceror (Draconic Bloodline):


Metamagics are extremely useful, specifically Quicken / Twinned Spell since this is a very action-economy intensive build
+1 hp per level keeps my HP almost par with continuing in Paladin
More diverse cantrip picks


I am currently leaning Lore Bard because it looks SO good on paper, but I keep thinking about how awesome it'll be to throw quickened spirit guardians, twinned shield of faith, twinned greater invisibility, or really surprise the DM with a subtle counterspell.
Honestly, reading your last paragraph, that would really not be my main reason to take Sorcerer over Bard. Quickened seems nice enough for action economy but quickly uses SP, Subtle is great but a bit overkill if you don't plan on using it outside combat (since you don't wield a shield, you already have a hand free for somatics anyways).

Also, you don't get that high a CHA for now to really use all that spells and features.
Twin or Extended would be probably the best uses of Metamagic.

On the other side, Bard indeed gets useful features, including Magic Secrets.

My view on this would be the following...
1. If you plan on stopping Paladin here AND want primarily buffs AND expect high level character, go Lore Bard, bumping CHA ASAP.
As a support character, you will get much mileage from Bard features (Expertise, Bardic Inspiration) even more with higher CHA (which also benefits your Paladin Auras), and you will end with the best possible party buff, Circle of Power.

2. If you plan on going Paladin 11 and don't want to bump CHA that much (18 max), both are fine choices.
- Bard gets powerful (de)buffs (Heat Metal, Enhance Ability, Silence, Plant Growth) and utility (Glyph or Warding, Leomund's Tiny Hut) that works as efficiently whatever high your CHA is, and some of them being rituals.
- Sorcerer gets many AOE spells that won't be that efficient with 16 CHA, Haste (which Bard can get with Magic Secrets) and Shield (same).
- Both get Greater Invisibility, Polymorph, Animate Objects.
- Sorcerer gets Twin, Extended, Subtle or Heightened metamagics which all can be great for you, depending on which spells you tend to use, and whether you usually blow slots on smites or not.

Choose Sorcerer only if you really want to use a few particular spell+metamagic combos regularly I'd say. Otherwise, Bard brings more versatility to the table thanks to features and Magic Secrets.

3. You like to "support" the party by throwing control/debuff spells AND you plan on bumping CHA asap and max it.
Go Sorcerer, pick Twin and Careful metamagic, pick Haste, Web, Stinking Cloud, Polymorph, Fireball.

Tl;DR Bard's features are a bit lesser with only 16 CHA, but all are very useful, and he has many spells that work wonders on a group, and rituals to lessen economy cost. Sorcerer has some great low level spells for it (Shield notably) and is worth if you plan on using a particular metamagic+spell often.
(Personally, without other infos on your character concept, I'd go Bard, bumping CHA first, using last ASI on either maxing CHA or Inspiring Leader. YMMV).

[Specter]

Since you went this far in Pally, as others said, go to level 11 to be fearless and more damaging than ever.

But beyond that, it's up to you, really. Bard is useful right out of the gate for Bardic Inspiration, but since you're already using your bonus every turn with PAM, I'm not sure.

[jaappleton]

Yeesh... This is rough.

Honestly, I say Paladin 11 before doing anything else.

However, if you are set on Mcing (And it's not a bad choice to do it now, it really isn't. Just that Paladin abilities are SO GOOD that its tough to pass them up) at your current level, I absolutely believe Bard is the way to go. The Inspiration Dice alone is worth so much. I played a Lore Bard for quite awhile, and the Inspiration Dice could alter battles. I turned hits into misses, misses into hits, nullified enemy turns, etc. Everyone focuses on Magical Secrets for a Bard (Which is a REALLY good feature), but the Inspiration Dice are so spectacular.

[Willie the Duck]

My opinion is that I would say keep going as paladin. Most paladin/X builds I like go up to 6-8 max in paladin, and focus on spells/support. This looks like a melee support class, and I think upping your combat game and getting the upper level paladin spells and abilities competes nicely with the double speed spell (and smite slot) advancement and low level spells from either sorcerer or bard.

[Navigator]

Thanks for all the feedback. The consensus appears to be that advancing in Sorceror is not a bad choice, but Bard is superior at least in my particular case. Consider me swayed.

However, I'm now presented with another choice that I thought I was over, and that's whether to pick up Improved Smite before crossing over to a casting class. I would ask that you help me again to dig into this choice. The most objective comparison (I think) is to compare Paladin 10-11 to Bard 10-11 since that is the net difference in the builds. Because of how AL XP awards are structured, I am looking at a lot of play time from levels 14-17, and then probably 19-20, depending on how tier 4 content pans out.

Option 1: Paladin 10-11


Improved Smite: The reason this is considered at all, adding +1d8 (+4.5) to all my weapon damage rolls is quite good and keeps me competitive damage-wise in melee
Aura of Courage: A nice gimme


Option 2: Bard 10-11


2 more Magical Secrets picks: I would probably pick something like fire shield and wall of force
Another 2 Expertise picks: My first two will probably be Athletics and Persuasion/Perception. These two will be Persuasion/Perception and perhaps Arcana.
Access to 6th level spells as a capstone to the build, which may be mass suggestion
Better die on both Song of Rest and Inspiration


Option 3: Paladin 12 / Bard 8 could be compared favorably over Paladin 11 / Bard 9 if I were willing to sacrifice my 5th level spell pick for an extra feat


This nets me an extra feat in the build
Stays neutral in spell slot progression since I'd be cutting at an even Paladin level
On the bard side I will lose access to 5th level spells completely, which means no animate objects or greater restoration
I'd lose a Song of Rest die, but meh


From my perspective, getting Improved Smite has a significant opportunity cost. However, as was pointed out, my investment into Polearm Master and Sentinel gives much more credence to doubling down on my melee damage output. I see all of these as perfectly viable choices, but still not sure which is best. Thanks ahead for your thoughts on this.

[Citan]

Thanks for all the feedback. The consensus appears to be that advancing in Sorceror is not a bad choice, but Bard is superior at least in my particular case. Consider me swayed.

However, I'm now presented with another choice that I thought I was over, and that's whether to pick up Improved Smite before crossing over to a casting class. I would ask that you help me again to dig into this choice. The most objective comparison (I think) is to compare Paladin 10-11 to Bard 10-11 since that is the net difference in the builds. Because of how AL XP awards are structured, I am looking at a lot of play time from levels 14-17, and then probably 19-20, depending on how tier 4 content pans out.

Option 1: Paladin 10-11


Improved Smite: The reason this is considered at all, adding +1d8 (+4.5) to all my weapon damage rolls is quite good and keeps me competitive damage-wise in melee
Aura of Courage: A nice gimme


Option 2: Bard 10-11


2 more Magical Secrets picks: I would probably pick something like fire shield and wall of force
Another 2 Expertise picks: My first two will probably be Athletics and Persuasion/Perception. These two will be Persuasion/Perception and perhaps Arcana.
Access to 6th level spells as a capstone to the build, which may be mass suggestion
Better die on both Song of Rest and Inspiration


Option 3: Paladin 12 / Bard 8 could be compared favorably over Paladin 11 / Bard 9 if I were willing to sacrifice my 5th level spell pick for an extra feat


This nets me an extra feat in the build
Stays neutral in spell slot progression since I'd be cutting at an even Paladin level
On the bard side I will lose access to 5th level spells completely, which means no animate objects or greater restoration
I'd lose a Song of Rest die, but meh


From my perspective, getting Improved Smite has a significant opportunity cost. However, as was pointed out, my investment into Polearm Master and Sentinel gives much more credence to doubling down on my melee damage output. I see all of these as perfectly viable choices, but still not sure which is best. Thanks ahead for your thoughts on this.
Hi again!

Honestly, I would decide basically on your sole interest in 5th level Magical Secrets or your usual spell resources management.
1. Do you have some spells you REALLY want to have and plan to use regularly (which obviously can be obtained only through Magical Secrets or 6th level spells)? >>> Bard 10/11.
2. Do you usually tend to use high level concentration spells (or plan to)? >>> Bard 11.
3. Are you fine with capping at 5th level spells (beware, yet another option): Bard 10 / Sorcerer 1 (Shield, Chromatic Orb, cantrips) OR Warlock 1 (Hex, Eldricht Blast).
On that note, Wall of Force is a great choice, for the second, allow me to suggest again Circle of Power: giving advantage to saves to all allies, in addition to +CHA to saves, will make you extremely resilient against most enemies, even the ones with nasty effects.
Otherwise go Paladin 11.

Since you think having a high chance of reaching capstone level, in your place I'd go with option 3. You will probably feel a bit frustrated first because you will think of the radiant damage you are forsaking, but you will have great spells to compensate on, much earlier, that will usually bring more to the table: first you will have more slots so you can occasionally use Elemental Weapon, then you will get powerful spells for you or allies (Greater Invisibility, Haste on a powerful melee is largely worth your extra damage imo) or great debuffs (Blindness, Slow, Bestow Curse). Grabbing a Sorcerer or Warlock level somewhere if you feel it useful will give you yet another layer of defense (Sorcerer > Shield) or short-rest Hex/Bless/Shield of Faith (Warlock). And you will end as the great protector with Wall of Force / Circle of Power while also having offensive options (Animate Objects), utility (Teleportation Circle) and healing (Healing Words, Raise Dead).
Also, the single level dip will give you cantrips (for when you prefer having a rider on one enemy rather than weapon attacks, or when melee is not a great option, or if you want some nice utility such as Mage Hand, Message or Mold Earth).

[miburo]

I'll preface this with--I tend to build my characters as a combination of what would I like to play + what I think would best contribute to the party. Using this logic, I think going to Paladin 11 is a really good choice in your case because of your previous investment in Polearm Master and Sentinel. Any party you work with in AL would sincerely appreciate the damage boost. Skill/utility boosts are certainly helpful but as a Paladin people will primarily expect you to be good in combat.

Between option 2 and 3 (e.g. Pally 12 vs. Bard 1) that's up to you. I think the extra +2 to Charisma would serve you well in a number of regards (+ to saving throws with Divine Grace, power up all your future bard abilities). But if you don't wan to delay your bard abilities too much longer you could instead go straight to Bard at that point, and 5th level spells as a capstone is pretty cool.

All that said, it's your character. If you think you'd prefer going straight to Bard and capitalizing on the spells and utility, by all means go ahead. The goal is to have fun of course =)