Vampires (and Belkar; yes, again!): dramatic exposition or subtle foreshadowing?

[Dr.Zero]

I'm pretty sure that this has been already discussed, because it is too evident (hell, I fear I discussed it already somewhere, but I can't remember).
Thus, if someone can point me to the thread where this has been examined (better if there is some word of God, since we are talking about his future intentions), I'd appreciate it.

I'm talking about strip #946 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0946.html).

The problem is: if the soul is always successful trapped and cannot free itself, what's the point about asking about it and, even worse, about replying like Durkula does ("It is well in hand", "It cannot resist")?.
I mean, the obvious reply from Hel should be rolling her eyes and say: "Duh, I wasn't talking about that, I know how vampires work and that you have total control!".

So is that page only meant to give us a dramatic and cool final panel (with a bit of exposition) or is it possible that we have here a subtle foreshadowing about the fact that a soul might, indeed, rebel and free itself?

Because, if the latter, then a certain halfing... :smallbiggrin:

Edit: Okay, I found discussion about #946 and I'm going to read it (with some time... since there are 34 pages :smallsigh:) to check if this was already discussed there. In the meantime if someone else has a more precise reference...

[Peelee]

Exposition.

[Kish]

In light of Greg and Durkon's ability to converse (and indeed Greg's apparent inability or unwillingness to stop Durkon from talking to him whenever he chooses), I suspect a more charismatic and generally subtle character (Haley, for example) would probably be able to influence the vampire controlling the body using the same methods someone helplessly chained to a physical wall could influence their captor, without it implying being able to rip free of the chains by main strength.

The OP doesn't seem to have anything to do with Belkar, except one incomplete sentence. What--oh, I get it. This post is "Belkar can dodge his prophesied death!" #1703.

[hroþila]

Primarily exposition, but surely we can't say anything about its not being foreshadowing until the arc ends.

[JeenLeen]

There's that one comic when Durkon makes the connection between his mom telling him to ask if people need help before helping and how he originally acted when working with Roy. The vampire version didn't make the connection and, indeed, seems somewhat incapable of making the connection (though I guess whether it's capable is a tangential and not too relevant point).

I imagine that was foreshadowing that Durkon would somehow be critical to foiling the vampire's plans by (in effect) giving misinformation, causing it to fumble at a critical point.

Not sure if that would be mixed with this to foreshadow said fumbling to actually enable him to break free. It seems possible.

EDIT: found the comic: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0963.html

[Jasdoif]

I'm talking about strip #946 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0946.html).

The problem is: if the soul is always successful trapped and cannot free itself, what's the point about asking about it and, even worse, about replying like Durkula does ("It is well in hand", "It cannot resist")?.
I mean, the obvious reply from Hel should be rolling her eyes and say: "Duh, I wasn't talking about that, I know how vampires work and that you have total control!".Well, I did have a theory for that the last time I saw it come up:


Vampires have free will, and can make their own decisions. Decisions which could be influenced by having to listen to the original residing spirit stuck inside the host's mind...and spirits created specifically to fit the hole in a heart of someone whose life was largely defined by blind obedience could be especially vulnerable.

Hel may very well have been asking not because she didn't know the answer, but because she wanted to evaluate the response to see if more intervention was necessary.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

If you want the Giant's words on vampires, they're right in my signature for reference.

In general, I'd say the reason was to confirm to Hel that everything was going all right (since you never know if something will go wrong) and to demonstrate that the High Priest of Hel was completely in line with the plan.

[Dr.Zero]

Exposition.


Primarily exposition, but surely we can't say anything about its not being foreshadowing until the arc ends.

At this point it is my conclusion too: it was mostly exposition.


There's that one comic when Durkon makes the connection between his mom telling him to ask if people need help before helping and how he originally acted when working with Roy. The vampire version didn't make the connection and, indeed, seems somewhat incapable of making the connection (though I guess whether it's capable is a tangential and not too relevant point).

I imagine that was foreshadowing that Durkon would somehow be critical to foiling the vampire's plans by (in effect) giving misinformation, causing it to fumble at a critical point.

Not sure if that would be mixed with this to foreshadow said fumbling to actually enable him to break free. It seems possible.

EDIT: found the comic: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0963.html

I remember that one. But I think that is a different foreshadowing from the one I was thinking about. The one you link is more about: "Maybe I can manipulate the ignorant parasite". The one I was thinking of was more about: "Maybe a soul can actually resist, fight and overthrow the parasite."
Thanks for the link, anyway, because I wanted to explain the difference between the two when I was posting, but I gave up because I didn't remember where this one was.


Well, I did have a theory for that the last time I saw it come up:


If you want the Giant's words on vampires, they're right in my signature for reference.

In general, I'd say the reason was to confirm to Hel that everything was going all right (since you never know if something will go wrong) and to demonstrate that the High Priest of Hel was completely in line with the plan.

Read both.
While I find the idea quite clever (being a vampire molded on the soul's worst day, yet free willed, it is not automatic that he must being Hel's cleric and so she might feel the need to check up the situation), I don't think that Hel can intervene a lot more after the creation of the vampire. I mean, if Durkula decides (manipulations aside) that Nergal is better than Hel, and to serve Nergal instead of Hel, I don't think Hel can do anything about it. Hypothetically speaking, of course, since that kind of resolution would be quite an anticlimax.

@Jaxzan Proditor: I did read the links in your signature before, but thanks to have joined the thread, so now I can always easily find them, if I need a quick reminder, instead of moving around on various thread hoping to find "that guy with the links in his signature". :smallwink:


In light of Greg and Durkon's ability to converse (and indeed Greg's apparent inability or unwillingness to stop Durkon from talking to him whenever he chooses), I suspect a more charismatic and generally subtle character (Haley, for example) would probably be able to influence the vampire controlling the body using the same methods someone helplessly chained to a physical wall could influence their captor, without it implying being able to rip free of the chains by main strength.

The OP doesn't seem to have anything to do with Belkar, except one incomplete sentence. What--oh, I get it. This post is "Belkar can dodge his prophesied death!" #1703.

Not sure that starting with a more "subtle" build might be an advantage for the soul.
I mean, the vampire inherits all the original host's traits, skills and abilities at its creation time (needing more time only for the personal memories), thus a Halkula would have some pretty strong sense motive to compensate for Haley's bluff. Instead Durkula is naive both as "lacking full understanding of human things" and as build (inheriting that from Durkon), which, all in all, might make trick it easier.

Then, of course the question was related mostly to the Belkster and a potential Belkula, exactly because we know already that there is another foreshadowing regarding explicitly Durkon and the fact that maybe he might trick Durkula.

And let's be honest, Belkar is so awesome that I can apply to him the quote from H. Simpson regarding Poochie: whenever Belkar's not on screen, all the other characters should be asking "Where's Belkar"? :smallcool:

[Jaxzan Proditor]

@Jaxzan Proditor: I did read the links in your signature before, but thanks to have joined the thread, so now I can always easily find them, if I need a quick reminder, instead of moving around on various thread hoping to find "that guy with the links in his signature". :smallwink:

Well, I'm glad that I have provided at least a little help. :smalltongue:

I intend to be the Gift Jeraff of vampire links.

[Jasdoif]

While I find the idea quite clever (being a vampire molded on the soul's worst day, yet free willed, it is not automatic that he must being Hel's cleric and so she might feel the need to check up the situation), I don't think that Hel can intervene a lot more after the creation of the vampire.Given how much she has to gain with the destruction of the world, and that she didn't know she'd have a possible opportunity to get a vote in the Godsmoot until it happened that same day (or maybe the day before?); would it really be odd for her to check in on her fresh high priest even if she couldn't do anything beyond ordering/manipulating/advising HPoH?

[Dr.Zero]

Given how much she has to gain with the destruction of the world, and that she didn't know she'd have a possible opportunity to get a vote in the Godsmoot until it happened that same day (or maybe the day before?); would it really be odd for her to check in on her fresh high priest even if she couldn't do anything beyond ordering/manipulating/advising HPoH?

Absolutely. She might very well be the anxious type.
Indeed I said, in the piece you quoted: being a vampire molded on the soul's worst day, yet free willed, it is not automatic that he must being Hel's cleric and so she might feel the need to check up the situation agreeing that this was a possibility.
The rest of the comment was about the possibility of effective intervention from her, if Durkula decides to give her the finger, which, if I understood well the vampire-stuff, is close to nil.

[Darth Paul]

And let's be honest, Belkar is so awesome that I can apply to him the quote from H. Simpson regarding Poochie: whenever Belkar's not on screen, all the other characters should be asking "Where's Belkar"? :smallcool:

I'm not sure I'd go that far. I'm capable of going for entire weeks without wondering where Belkar is. He even fell off a mountain and I didn't much wonder where he was; I sort of figured he'd turn up again eventually, and waddya know, he did. Like a stray cat. :smallamused: Maybe that's why he and Mr. Scruffy work so well together.

[Dr.Zero]

I'm not sure I'd go that far. I'm capable of going for entire weeks without wondering where Belkar is. He even fell off a mountain and I didn't much wonder where he was; I sort of figured he'd turn up again eventually, and waddya know, he did. Like a stray cat. :smallamused: Maybe that's why he and Mr. Scruffy work so well together.

That is another face of the medal, yes. If he seems gone, then when he return all of sudden, unexpected, he can be even more awesome.

"We are surrounded, everything is lost, who will save us now?"
"Fear not, The Belkster is back!"
*kills the enemies and makes out with a random hottie*
"Who is da halfling?!"


Which is practically what happened (even if only in universe) in Greysky city.
Thus I totally expect to see him back soon, to save the day from the giants, making out with the giantess warrior. :smallbiggrin: (Joking, of course)

[Jasdoif]

"We are surrounded, everything is lost, who will save us now?"
"Fear not, The Belkster is back!"
*kills the enemies and makes out with a random hottie*
"Who is da halfling?!"And if Serini has taken the title "the Belkster" upon herself, in honor(?) of Belkar's heroic(??) sacrifice(???) after he's dead, it almost makes sense.

[Snails]

Jasdoif's reasoning makes good sense.

If Hel did not like the tone of Greg's answer, there are conceivable positive and negative promises that could be made, that might prod Greg long enough for Hel's purposes. We do not have to know more specifics because such considerations are irrelevant...so far.

[Dr.Zero]

And if Serini has taken the title "the Belkster" upon herself, in honor(?) of Belkar's heroic(??) sacrifice(???) after he's dead, it almost makes sense.

No, this can't happen because, like everyone knows already,

Serini is Belkar's mom, who gave him in adoption to the Bitterleafs, hoping that in this way he could become a normal halfling, instead of following her (hairy) footsteps in the dangerous life of adventuring. Probably it will become official when Belkar does his heroic sacrifice, with the following lines:
Serini: "Belkar, I am your mother!"
Belkar: "Didn't Elan spoiled that line already? Can we stop to recycle material? And shouldn't you wear a mask or something like that while you say this?"
Serini: "I'm serious, Belkar, and I'm so glad to see you've become such a fine and good man. I tried to save you from the dangers of this life giving you in adoption, but now look at you! You saved the world with your heroic sacrifice! I couldn't be prouder of you!"


Come on, I thought it was clear, at this point!