Pathfinder Retiering the classes (PF): Wizard, Cleric, Druid and Witch [Archive]

Gnaeus

2017-03-01, 10:55 AM

My votes.

Wizard: Still tier 1. Very similar to 3.5. Some spells nerfed, but the strongest ones (other than polymorph line) still similar. Crafting is easier, low level survival is easier with more HP. Can now cast from opposition schools, so you can ban evocation and still get contingency.

Cleric: Still T1 like wizard. No DMM, but channel has advantages over turning in builds not built around turning. Still very versatile on a T1 list.

Witch: T1 I think witch is the bottom of T1. Their list is a little worse than the Wizard/Cleric lists, but I am a big fan of Hexes, which are basically a T3 class by themselves, which free up spell slots for more situational spells, and which check off a bunch of boxes about beating things like SR, grapples, close combat casting and the like.

Druid: I'm going to go out on a limb and say Druid is maybe T2 in PF. Wildshape is heavily nerfed. Animal companion is heavily nerfed. And Summon Natures Ally is much much weaker. I was almost tempted to break it up into melee druids (which I think tend to be T3) and caster druids (usually T2) because they are very different builds in PF, but really I think for me it is enough to point out the druid nerfs and say that they are still open list full casters, but much weaker in play than in 3.5.

Psyren

2017-03-01, 11:50 AM

Krazzman

2017-03-01, 11:59 AM

I'd probably agree with Druid being lower power - having fewer routes to dominate the game than previously via weaker spells, weaker companions, and weaker shapeshifting..

Note that high-level Witches get a substantial bump in power due to the Summon Spirit Grand Hex.

I would also let Shaman into the T1 lounge thanks to Lore Spirit + Wandering Hex. Possibly also Amnesiac Psychic.

Can agree completely.
Shamans and Clerics are similar in playstyle from what I saw.

Druids sadly got the short stick of every full caster. Although I really like the change to shapeshifting, haven't gotten around to play a Druid after more books than Core were released.

exelsisxax

2017-03-01, 12:02 PM

Wizard: T1. I don't think this really needs further discussion.

Cleric: T1. The same.

Witch: T2/T1. Despite being a prepared 9th caster, spell availability suffers similarly to that of your standard spontaneous 9th caster. Hexes are more of a patch than a boost in power compared to most T1s after the very early levels where they shine. Strong T2, because you have to tryhard to break the game.

Druid: T1. A cleric that can't wear metal armor, but gets an almost-fighter companion creature, and can shapeshift regularly and easily. A 1st time player that randomly picks up natural spell can accidentally overshadow every noncaster on his or her team, even if spells were prepared using a random table. It's not just T1, it's the highest floor T1 and breaks premade encounters with minimal optimization.

Gnaeus

2017-03-01, 12:06 PM

I would also let Shaman into the T1 lounge thanks to Lore Spirit + Wandering Hex. Possibly also Amnesiac Psychic.

I think you're right but I figured I would discuss it after Eggynack does Spirit Shaman. I thought Witch and Druid are both close enough to the border to drive this thread.

Tuvarkz

2017-03-01, 01:06 PM

I'll err on the side of mechanics knowledge allowing for T1 worthy builds for Druid and Witch, imo.
Slap the Arcanist on T1 as well since the class is just a variant wizard with its own gamebreaking shenanigans.
I'd also add
Oracle-Lunar or Lore mysteries; since the former basically turns the Oracle into a variant of the Druid and the latter nets the Oracle wizard spells, if a bit costy (or at least until you get a Blessed Book, which allows for free inscription of spells on it).
Similarly, the False Priest Sorcerer archetype gets to replicate divine spells, adding them to his arsenal. T1 in my opinion.

Gnaeus

2017-03-01, 03:10 PM

Druid: T1. A cleric that can't wear metal armor, but gets an almost-fighter companion creature, and can shapeshift regularly and easily. A 1st time player that randomly picks up natural spell can accidentally overshadow every noncaster on his or her team, even if spells were prepared using a random table. It's not just T1, it's the highest floor T1 and breaks premade encounters with minimal optimization.

I would love to agree with this, but I just can't. Druid is flat out my favorite class, and I am firmly on record for saying that the 3.5 druid and pet can do exactly what you describe, and that the pet is often equal to a low-mid op fighter. But in PF I just don't think it holds. The companion is much worse (share spells is different and worse, grapple is different and much worse), the wildshaped druid is heavily reliant on their base physical stats and doesn't get basic tricks until higher level (and again, its much harder to casually grapple/trip in PF), and the fighter and monk have generally better numbers.

I'm not saying that you can't still make a druid that outfighters a fighter, but IMO it now requires permanent investment of resources that actually make you worse at things other than being a fighter. I think if you just took natural spell and tried to outfighter your fighter without carefully chosen stats, spells and feats, you are liable to exceed the fighter at his core specialty, getting his backside kicked. And as I said before, its a weird optimization place because the opti-fu levels that can make you beat a fighter should also be telling you that being a fighter is not usually the best thing for a druid to do.

I think it is possible to argue that Druid is still T1 on grounds that his list is strong enough. I don't think I agree, but its a strong case. But I don't think AC and WS into melee are a strong contributor.

Coretron03

2017-03-01, 05:48 PM

Wizard- Tier 1 due to versatile spell list capable of doing a lot of different things. Specialist wizard is a no brainer option now, due to being able to prepare them in 2 slots worth of spells making them still usable for downtime. Some of the school benefits are pretty good like admiztures ability to swap around the type of damage, teleportation's swift action teleports and other goodies. Wizard discoveries can be pretty good, from getting rid of a opposition school to free-ish planar binding. Bonded items act a once a day get out of jail free card. Crafting doesn't have Xp costs anymore, so at the very least they can have scrolls for backup in a lot of situations. Famliars can give init bonus. Traits can change skills so they are based on int, including UMD so with 2 traits they can UMD better then then a sorcerer. Other taitd let a wizard be a face with intimdate diplomancy and bluff. Int bonuses are easier to come by. They lost some power spells and others tot nerfed but they still are top tier classes. Have a d6 hitdie and favoured class bonus making them have more hp before spells and such.

Witch- Tier 1 Hexes are good from single target save or dies to party wide buffing. Traits benifit them just as much as the wizard. Also a d6 hitdie and have a famliar over a spell book. Cast off a good list and have some sweet archetypes. High level hexes can be basically planar binding. A bit high powered but If you can use leadership to get a lot of witches the coven hex can give you huge bonuses on caster level. Someone ran the math once and a high level witch can get 3 month mage armours and 18. hour greater heroism. Basically a Wizard with a worse spell list with some decent tricks making up for it. Aon the lower end of tier 1, maybe higher if leadership is allowed (or even nerfed so it only gives followers, no cohort).

Cleric- Tier 1 Lost some stuff like heavy armour and no longer have DMM to abuse but gained stuff like alternate channeling, of which the best are save or daze. Enough build optmization can give you high dc saves or daze to every enemy within 30ft. Still have a good spell list and don't need a spell book. Spell list is still good and some domains got really good powers.

Druids- Unsure, Never looked at them very closely and don't know what kind of tricks they can pull. Wildshape nerfs are rough. Will rate later after enough searching through books and such.

While this isn't the thread for it sorcerers get a hefty versatility boost in pathfinder from extra spells from bloodlines and the human favoured class bonus, giving them 26 more spells known over 20 levels (assuming they take a different favoured class bonus at levels 1-3 because extra cantrips known aren't worth it) although they still lack spells known of the highest level they know when they first get that level. Cha to init is also a feat away (noble scion) and they make great 15th level and higher summoning builds due to the abyssal bloodline letting them summon a extra monster, which combined with superior summons feat they can get 3 summons of the highesst list out. Extra feats from bloodline and everyone getting extra feats in general make the wizard and sorcerer a bit closer together in power and versatility level plus paragon surge gives them all the spells on their list for downtime days. Might warrant a tier bump up to tier 1.

Bucky

2017-03-01, 06:15 PM

Are we assuming no archetypes or smart archetype selection?

Gnaeus

2017-03-01, 06:46 PM

Are we assuming no archetypes or smart archetype selection?

I mentioned briefly in the base thread, but I think we should include archetypes, weighing the better ones more heavily than the worse ones (Trap options suck, but I think most players who go through the efforts to find archetypes will be looking for ones that are good, or at least relevant to their build). If we get a good concensus that particular archetypes are really different I'm not opposed to breaking out a few outliers and treating them separately, but I think in general we should just think of them as optimization dependent options.

Gnaeus

2017-03-01, 06:56 PM

While this isn't the thread for it sorcerers get a hefty versatility boost in pathfinder from extra spells from bloodlines and the human favoured class bonus, giving them 26 more spells known over 20 levels (assuming they take a different favoured class bonus at levels 1-3 because extra cantrips known aren't worth it) although they still lack spells known of the highest level they know when they first get that level. Cha to init is also a feat away (noble scion) and they make great 15th level and higher summoning builds due to the abyssal bloodline letting them summon a extra monster, which combined with superior summons feat they can get 3 summons of the highesst list out. Extra feats from bloodline and everyone getting extra feats in general make the wizard and sorcerer a bit closer together in power and versatility level plus paragon surge gives them all the spells on their list for downtime days. Might warrant a tier bump up to tier 1.

I generally agree, although we not there yet. Not sure how much Noble Scion really adds, since dexterity is usually going to be an important secondary stat anyway (reflex, ranged touch, AC, some skills) and charisma has to be 9-10 higher than dexterity for Noble Scion to beat improved initiative. But that will sometimes happen.

Eldonauran

2017-03-01, 07:40 PM

I mentioned briefly in the base thread, but I think we should include archetypes, weighing the better ones more heavily than the worse ones.

If that is the case, I put forward the Nature Fang druid archetype as a serious contender for pushing the Druid deeper into the T1 area. Doesn't matter if you are combat focused or not, though you definitely get the most for your effort with a combat build. Trading away wildshape (and its versatility) and other minor druid features, lets you save the feat on Natural Spell, let's you focus on using your spells to assume vermin form (which has flight and other nice things), and gives you nine (9 !!) slayer talents to increase your versatility. Oh, and a single sneak attack dice.

The biggest draw is the Studied Target class feature. You replace every instance of Slayer with Druid, and you get bonuses to hit, damage, some skills, and DC's for your class abilities (spells are class abilities). Now, you just need a modified wisdom score of 19 to cast your 9th level spells and get that free +5 (effectively 10 more wisdom) on your spell DC's.

Other fun stuff: Evasion. Opportunist. Ranger combat styles. Trapfinding. Grit and Firearm training.

Oh, get the crocodile domain to get a familiar (protector archetype) to get effectively d12 HD (when you split 1/2 damage with familiar) and progressing sneak attack.

Slithery D

2017-03-01, 07:49 PM

Psyren

2017-03-01, 09:22 PM

Druid summons might be weaker but they do have one potentially gamebreaking toolbox - Entice Fey. Like Planar Ally you don't have total control over what you get, but also like Planar Ally, the power and versatility of this spell is limited only by what they print.

I would love to agree with this, but I just can't. Druid is flat out my favorite class, and I am firmly on record for saying that the 3.5 druid and pet can do exactly what you describe, and that the pet is often equal to a low-mid op fighter. But in PF I just don't think it holds. The companion is much worse (share spells is different and worse, grapple is different and much worse), the wildshaped druid is heavily reliant on their base physical stats and doesn't get basic tricks until higher level (and again, its much harder to casually grapple/trip in PF), and the fighter and monk have generally better numbers.

To be fair, casually grappling is one thing the PF druid can do better than most classes (certainly better than the other core-only ones) because they get the Grab ability. So while everyone is grappling as a standard, the Druid is able to do it several times on a full-attack, and able to easily hit Huge size to stay good at it etc.

Gnaeus

2017-03-02, 08:01 AM

To be fair, casually grappling is one thing the PF druid can do better than most classes (certainly better than the other core-only ones) because they get the Grab ability. So while everyone is grappling as a standard, the Druid is able to do it several times on a full-attack, and able to easily hit Huge size to stay good at it etc.

Yes, but they have to be built to do it. If your Druid doesn't start with a decent strength and take grapple type feats, making lots of grapple checks doesn't help you. Grab doesn't help you pin, only start grapples. Most things can maim you while grappled (not pinned). If you follow it up with the feat lines that let you maintain grapple without a standard and you build a grappler, you can do it sure. But you can't do it by accident like in 3.5

I wouldn't say that using a situational and mostly broken mechanic is really a selling point above the T3 level.

Psyren

2017-03-02, 10:04 AM

Yes, but they have to be built to do it. If your Druid doesn't start with a decent strength and take grapple type feats, making lots of grapple checks doesn't help you. Grab doesn't help you pin, only start grapples. Most things can maim you while grappled (not pinned). If you follow it up with the feat lines that let you maintain grapple without a standard and you build a grappler, you can do it sure. But you can't do it by accident like in 3.5

I wouldn't say that using a situational and mostly broken mechanic is really a selling point above the T3 level.

If you're bothering to grapple at all it's assumed that T3 is fine. After all, which is higher tier - wrestling things, or rewriting reality?

But yes, I agree - you do need resources (decent physical stats, items that boost same, grappling feats) to make grappling worthwhile, even as a druid in PF. This is a feature rather than a bug.

Kurald Galain

2017-03-03, 09:39 AM

Cleric: Tier one.

Druid: Tier one.

Wizard: Tier one.

Yeah, no argument there for the PF classes. Arcanist is also tier 1, in case that wasn't obvious.

Witch is tier 2 primarily due to getting a substantially weaker spell list. While hexes are thematically cool, they are also generally weaker than spells (which is the obvious design intent: you get limited spells and infinite hexes, hence spells are more powerful). Witch also gets less spells per day (due to not having a school specialization) and no additional goodies where the wizard gets bonus feats, school powers like divination, and arcane discoveries. Tier 2 is still very good, but a witch clearly is not on the same power level as a full-fledged wizard.

Psyren

2017-03-03, 10:07 AM

People are down on the Witch list but it's really not bad. They get a lot of the standard T1 force multipliers like Dominate/Geas, Magic Jar/Possession, (Greater) Teleport, Astral Projection, Genesis, SM1-9, Animate Objects etc. With Patrons it gets even better, adding things like Miracle, Time Stop, even Planar Binding and Gate. So I see no reason to put them at T2. (Not to mention that high-level witches can get a pet sorcerer as a class feature.)

Kurald Galain

2017-03-03, 10:16 AM

People are down on the Witch list but it's really not bad.

Indeed it's really not bad. That's why the witch is tier 2 instead of tier 3.

Psyren

2017-03-03, 10:17 AM

Indeed it's really not bad. That's why the witch is tier 2 instead of tier 3.

They're prepared casters; they're not locked into a given loadout every morning. That puts them at T1.

khadgar567

2017-03-03, 10:22 AM

Psyren

2017-03-03, 10:27 AM

Is any one checked jarrods tier compendium properly dude put wizard in wrong tier and every one still keeps doing same mistake. Tier 4 can do one thing good if you look carefuly in to wizard class they can do only one thing and one thing only which casting spells so wizards are not tier 1 class every one belives they are another tier 4 class just like their good friend fighter.

Assuming you're not being sarcastic, casting spells isn't actually an objective, it's a way to do other things. This argument is like saying "every class does just one thing, rolling dice, therefore everyone is T4."

Kurald Galain

2017-03-03, 10:50 AM

Is any one checked jarrods tier compendium properly dude put wizard in wrong tier and every one still keeps doing same mistake. Tier 4 can do one thing good if you look carefuly in to wizard class they can do only one thing and one thing only which casting spells so wizards are not tier 1 class every one belives they are another tier 4 class just like their good friend fighter.

Totally true dude thats why I written this great guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?66567-A-strong-Samurai-build) over year almost ten years ago!!!1

Psyren

2017-03-03, 10:53 AM

Ah, I figured that was it. Silly me.

Bucky

2017-03-03, 01:32 PM

Assuming you're not being sarcastic, casting spells isn't actually an objective, it's a way to do other things. This argument is like saying "every class does just one thing, rolling dice, therefore everyone is T4."

Nonsense. Sorcerers can be built to not need to roll dice. Summoners can have their minions roll the dice instead. Only the low-tier suckers are stuck with the results of their rolls.

Barstro

2017-03-03, 02:25 PM

Yeah, no argument there for the PF classes. Arcanist is also tier 1, in case that wasn't obvious.

Witch is tier 2 primarily due to getting a substantially weaker spell list. While hexes are thematically cool, they are also generally weaker than spells (which is the obvious design intent: you get limited spells and infinite hexes, hence spells are more powerful). Witch also gets less spells per day (due to not having a school specialization) and no additional goodies where the wizard gets bonus feats, school powers like divination, and arcane discoveries. Tier 2 is still very good, but a witch clearly is not on the same power level as a full-fledged wizard.

I disagree. Just because Wizards are Tier 1+ does not mean Witches are Tier 2. Even if they could be considered at the bottom of Tier 1, they still make the list.

While Witches have a smaller list, they gain access to most of the best spells. To supplement this, they gain access to healing spells.
Hexes may (and I only say "may") be worse in combat, but many of the best are still very useful outside of combat. Being able to put several guards to sleep per day to avoid combat without wasting a spell slot is, IMO, very useful.

Saying that oranges make for horrible pie is true, but it doesn't mean apples are inherently better.

Tier 1: Capable of doing absolutely everything, often better than classes that specialize in that thing.
- It might take more thought, but as prepared casters, they can do almost anything that a Wizard can do. Certainly more versatile than a Sorcerer.

Often capable of solving encounters with a single mechanical ability and little thought from the player.
- As mentioned, can endlessly solve encounters before they happen. Even a Wizard can do it only so many times per day

Has world changing powers at high levels.
- Patrons give access to Time Stop. I do not consider limited archetypes to be a valid argument, though.
- I am unsure of the agreed upon definition of "world changing", but I personally think their standard list does it.

These guys, if played with skill, can easily break a campaign and can be very hard to challenge without extreme DM fiat or plenty of house rules, especially if Tier 3s and below are in the party.
- My gaming experience is limited, but the Witch I played was, by far, the most useful character. Had I not personally reigned her in, she could have single-handedly solved about everything.

Kurald Galain

2017-03-03, 02:36 PM

I disagree. Just because Wizards are Tier 1+

Well, there's the problem already. You're inferring an "1+" or "0th" or "higher than anything else" tier for wizards outside of the tier list. In effect, you're agreeing with me that wizards are a better tier than witches. The only difference is that I call the wizard "1" and the witch "2", whereas you call the wizard "something even better than 1" and the witch "1". Same principle, though.

Psyren

2017-03-03, 02:52 PM

Well, there's the problem already. You're inferring an "1+" or "0th" or "higher than anything else" tier for wizards outside of the tier list. In effect, you're agreeing with me that wizards are a better tier than witches. The only difference is that I call the wizard "1" and the witch "2", whereas you call the wizard "something even better than 1" and the witch "1". Same principle, though.

Nah, there are levels within tiers; Wizard being at the higher end of T1 than Witches are, does not mean they belong in different tiers, any more than Magus being a stronger 3 than Warpriest due to all its splat support means that it's really a 2.

Gnaeus

2017-03-07, 12:27 PM

Counted votes. I'm not bothering with a spreadsheet or the like with this few votes cast.

Bucky

2017-03-07, 12:34 PM

Cleric: My god grants me all the spells I need.
Witch: Oh, that's nothing. My cat grants me all the spells I need.
Wizard: Oh, that's nothing. My diary grants me all the spells I need.
Druid: Spells? I don't need them, but I can pull them out of thin air if I want.

Felyndiira

2017-03-07, 03:40 PM

Bucky

2017-03-07, 04:32 PM

Ways I've seen a low level cleric or oracle solve an encounter (or the hard part of it) with a single spell, by slot:

Level 1: Hide from Undead, Obscuring Mist, Remove Fear, Swallow your Fear, Touch of Truthtelling, various domain spells and abilities
Level 2: Resist Energy, Calm Emotions, Ironskin (discharge),
Level 3: Channel Vigor, Magic Circle
Level 4: Air Walk, Freedom of Movement, Divination
Note that none of these allow savings throws.

Spells with similar capacity that I haven't seen a cleric use in actual play:
Level 2: Silence
Level 3: Sky Swim, Water Walk, Wind Wall

...and then there's the save-or-suck library (e.g. Hold Person, Dismissal) and minionmancy.

Psyren

2017-03-07, 04:40 PM

I'm rather curious - since Pathfinder's divine lists are mostly just PHB spells (many nerfed) with some add-ons of their own that tend to err on the weak side, are the level 1-6 cleric/druid spells really versatile enough to count as T1's definition of being able to solve a vast majority of problems with ease? If so, can you give examples?

I mean, we all know how strong miracle and gate are, but most of the tier system is about the middle levels - and I'm not really convinced that the cleric/druid lists level 6 or below (in Pathfinder) are really that versatile without shenanigans like worshiping elder gods to pull stuff from arcane lists.

Planar Ally and Geas still exist. You can get a lot of mileage out of getting monsters on your team, because they're pretty much as versatile as they've always been. Plane Shift is great too, both for offense and utility.

Beyond that, the idea behind tier is to be able to solve the problems that are likely to come up at your level, not to be able to solve all problems all the time at any level. A level 1 wizard in 3.5 can't transport the entire party to Celestia or bring himself back from the dead for instance, but he's still T1. Below 6th-level spells, Clerics can still solve a variety of problems with things like Commune, Stone Shape, Tongues, Dispel Magic, and Air Walk, to say nothing of their combat repertoire.

Bucky

2017-03-07, 06:16 PM

Coretron03

2017-03-07, 06:35 PM

Domain abilities also seem to be a bigger deal in Pathfinder than in 3.5. The campaign where I played a Liberation domain cleric had multiple encounters where my domain abilities nullified the encounter's crowd control. Since I had the Devout Pilgrim archetype, I was actually able to do this starting at level 2 rather than the standard level 8. But even without it, having the anti-debuff guy immune to your crowd control is often enough to solve the problem with real spells.

Channel Energy is also very significant. With selective channelling, or against an environmental encounter or unhealable enemies, channelled healing is sometimes enough to nullify all the enemy attacks as they happen.

Don't forget variant channeling, its very powerful if you use the noblity or ale/wine one for some reduced damage in exchange for battlefield wide daze/nauseate. You can get the DC's at level 5 around 15+cha affecting all enemies within 30ft. Life oracles do it much better though because they use cha for spells and channeling.

Bucky

2017-03-07, 07:18 PM

...In summary, Cleric builds can poke into tier 2 at low-to-mid levels even without using their main spell list. They might need their domain slot, though, depending on where you put the tier boundary.

Felyndiira

2017-03-07, 07:44 PM

Planar Ally and Geas still exist. You can get a lot of mileage out of getting monsters on your team, because they're pretty much as versatile as they've always been. Plane Shift is great too, both for offense and utility.

Beyond that, the idea behind tier is to be able to solve the problems that are likely to come up at your level, not to be able to solve all problems all the time at any level. A level 1 wizard in 3.5 can't transport the entire party to Celestia or bring himself back from the dead for instance, but he's still T1. Below 6th-level spells, Clerics can still solve a variety of problems with things like Commune, Stone Shape, Tongues, Dispel Magic, and Air Walk, to say nothing of their combat repertoire.

Oh, I'm not questioning the fact that the Cleric is at least T2, but conventional wisdom has always put spontaneous casters at T2 for having more limited problem-solving abilities despite having the same spell list. I'm just questioning where that boundry between T1 and T2 really is - namely, does the Cleric really have appreciably greater problem solving abilities at mid-levels compared to an Oracle with the Human FCB (two extra spells per lower spell level, pages of spell knowledge) to warrant that entire tier of difference?

Previously, in 3.5e with the huge numbers of spells in the Spell Compendum and other amazing splatbook spells, the answer would be a resounding yes. In Pathfinder, though, the Cleric's breadth of options seem more limited while spontaneous casters got more spells and Summon Monster taken by an Oracle (especially with summon feats) seem to cover much more of the breadth offered by the cleric's spells. Is that still worth the T1 vs. T2 divide?

Bucky

2017-03-07, 08:30 PM

I've seen credible arguments that Oracle can push T1, or could without the slower casting progression. IIRC they had something to do with Paragon Surge abuse.

Coretron03

2017-03-07, 08:54 PM

I've seen credible arguments that Oracle can push T1, or could without the slower casting progression. IIRC they had something to do with Paragon Surge abuse.

Yeah, paragon surge got errated though so you have to stick with the same feat. Before that they could use a standard action and a 3rd level spell slot to get any spell on their list. Sorcerers could do it too.

StreamOfTheSky

2017-03-07, 10:22 PM

Wizard; Tier 1, actually buffed from 3E

Cleric: Tier 1, actually buffed from 3E

Druid: This is tough...it was low tier 1 in 3E and got heavily nerfed in PF...I think it did fall enough to be tier 2.

Witch: EDIT: The more I think about it, Witch's options are niche and limited enough that it belongs in tier 2.

Slithery D

2017-03-07, 10:33 PM

Krazzman

2017-03-08, 04:33 AM

Gnaeus

2017-03-08, 06:56 AM

I've seen credible arguments that Oracle can push T1, or could without the slower casting progression. IIRC they had something to do with Paragon Surge abuse.

I think oracle gets there natively. By the time you hit 6-7 spells per level + your mystery spells + spontaneously converting to cures + 7 revelations many of which equal high level abilities you are probably already packing any spell you are very likely to cast. Even erratted Paragon Surge to pick up one extra spell or revelation of your choice 1/day should get you there.

Psyren

2017-03-08, 10:01 AM

I think oracle gets there natively. By the time you hit 6-7 spells per level + your mystery spells + spontaneously converting to cures + 7 revelations many of which equal high level abilities you are probably already packing any spell you are very likely to cast. Even erratted Paragon Surge to pick up one extra spell or revelation of your choice 1/day should get you there.

"Likely to cast" is exactly the difference though. T1s get where they are because they can cast the unlikely ones too, due to having unlimited spells known. This is particularly true for divine casters because they're automatically given their entire list, so they generally need no more than a day's worth of notice (and often much less, due to fixed daily prep times and the ability to leave slots open.) T2s are restricted by their spells known and thus need to rely on items (which are the province/providence of the GM) or retraining to access the more situational things.

If for example the only way to solve a given problem is via something niche like Gentle Repose, Obscure Object, or Discern Lies, the Oracle is unlikely to be packing these and may need more than a day to go find scrolls (if they are available at all.) The Cleric meanwhile can simply bum around for a bit and then prepare them. Even with all the extra spells known you mention, they're just unlikely to really be packing all the situational stuff; there are too many other good spells out there jockeying for attention.

The glaring weakness was paizo's over-valuation of At-Will abilities. As such their Hexes might be good but their Spelllist payed for that. At least in my opinion they are low T1 though.

The Witch spell list is fine, and the notion that it isn't needs to die. They can contribute to any fight, they can help bypass obstacles (alone or with their party), they can get information, they can deal with negative conditions, they have various niche utility spells etc. They are T1.

As for Hexes, their true benefit is psychological - how many times have you held back from contributing to a given problem magically because you felt you might need your spell slots later? All of a wizard's power is irrelevant if they're not using it, and a good GM should always have the casters worrying over their allotment - it is designed to be a limitation on them after all, that aspect should not be subsumed. It's the exact same reason why Reserve Feats and Warlocks are so popular.

Gnaeus

2017-03-08, 10:18 AM

"Likely to cast" is exactly the difference though. T1s get where they are because they can cast the unlikely ones too, due to having unlimited spells known. This is particularly true for divine casters because they're automatically given their entire list, so they generally need no more than a day's worth of notice (and often much less, due to fixed daily prep times and the ability to leave slots open.) T2s are restricted by their spells known and thus need to rely on items (which are the province/providence of the GM) or retraining to access the more situational things.

If for example the only way to solve a given problem is via something niche like Gentle Repose, Obscure Object, or Discern Lies, the Oracle is unlikely to be packing these and may need more than a day to go find scrolls (if they are available at all.) The Cleric meanwhile can simply bum around for a bit and then prepare them. Even with all the extra spells known you mention, they're just unlikely to really be packing all the situational stuff; there are too many other good spells out there jockeying for attention.
.

If the only way to solve a given problem is Gentle repose, he can use Paragon Surge for THAT one spell. They didn't stop Paragon Surge from working, just from being all the spells all the time.

But practically, I think that once the spontaneous casters hit a certain number of spells known, the real distance evaporates. The marginal utility for having access to spells #9-30 in the spell list becomes less than the marginal utility of using whichever one of the best 8 spells is most applicable 4 times in a row. I think the PF spontaneous casters (Sorcerer and Oracle) pass that point (assuming favored class bonuses to spells). The difference between 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 spells known, and 8, 7, 6, 4, 1 spells known is massive.

Kurald Galain

2017-03-08, 10:28 AM

They can contribute to any fight, they can help bypass obstacles (alone or with their party), they can get information, they can deal with negative conditions, they have various niche utility spells etc.

Interestingly, this description also fits the Bloodrager perfectly. So by this logic, the BR is also Tier 1.

Or, you know, your argument is insufficient.

NamelessNPC

2017-03-08, 10:38 AM

Interestingly, this description also fits the Bloodrager perfectly. So by this logic, the BR is also Tier 1.

Or, you know, your argument is insufficient.

I'm no expert in bloodrager, what utility they have in their spell list? How does a high op bloodrager spell known list look like?

Tuvarkz

2017-03-08, 10:42 AM

Kurald Galain

2017-03-08, 10:43 AM

I'm no expert in bloodrager, what utility they have in their spell list? How does a high op bloodrager spell known list look like?

Well, their list is clearly weaker than the witch's, which in turn is clearly weaker than the wizard's. But they can clearly "contribute to any fight, they can help bypass obstacles" and so forth.

Psyren

2017-03-08, 11:28 AM

Interestingly, this description also fits the Bloodrager perfectly. So by this logic, the BR is also Tier 1.

Or, you know, your argument is insufficient.

Or, you know, your statement is wrong (which it is.) I'm honestly surprised at you Kurald, but since I have to do this, let's go ahead and take a look:

1) Getting Information - they can't scry (witches can), they can't send messages (witches can), they can't read minds (witches can), they're stopped by language barriers (witches aren't), they can't charm (witches can), they don't get legend lore to find the plot (witches do), they can't ask planar entities for advice (witches can) etc.

2) Dealing with status effects - they can't heal (witches can), can't dispel (witches can), they can't resurrect (witches can), can't deal with poison (witches can), can't deal with disease (witches can), can't deal with curses (witches can), can't deal with paralysis or petrification (witches can), can't deal with insanity (witches can), can't deal with negative levels (witches can) etc.

3) Transportation - they can't teleport (witches can), they can't plane shift (witches can), can't astral project (witches can), can't create a demiplane (witches can). They do get Ghost Wolf and Fly at least.

4) Contributing to any combat - They can blast and swing, which is not nothing. However, they get barely any summons (witches do), weak battlefield control (witches have plenty), no mind control or possession (witches do), few saveless debuffs (witches get plenty)...

I'd continue but I think (hope) you get the point. Witches are T1.

Barstro

2017-03-08, 11:55 AM

Well, their list is clearly weaker than the witch's, which in turn is clearly weaker than the wizard's. But they can clearly "contribute to any fight, they can help bypass obstacles" and so forth.

A "clearly weaker" list is hardly in and of itself a defining factor. The fact that I paid extra for the seafood buffet does not change the fact that my fiance's "normal" buffet is still a full meal.

We all concede that Wizard is Tier 1. I pose two questions.

1) At what level do your other Tier 1 classes become Tier 1. It certainly is not level 1.
2) What specific problem can all your other Tier 1 classes solve that a Witch cannot ever solve?

Krazzman

2017-03-08, 12:11 PM

The Witch spell list is fine, and the notion that it isn't needs to die. They can contribute to any fight, they can help bypass obstacles (alone or with their party), they can get information, they can deal with negative conditions, they have various niche utility spells etc. They are T1.

As for Hexes, their true benefit is psychological - how many times have you held back from contributing to a given problem magically because you felt you might need your spell slots later? All of a wizard's power is irrelevant if they're not using it, and a good GM should always have the casters worrying over their allotment - it is designed to be a limitation on them after all, that aspect should not be subsumed. It's the exact same reason why Reserve Feats and Warlocks are so popular.

Yes it is, that's also not exactly what I wanted to point out. Just a list that is weaker than wizard since it sacrifices them for healing focused things afaik (I seriously have only experience with Sorcerers and that is shaky at best since I was sort of going for utility blaster with him).

I love hexes, the next Magus I play will most likely be a Hexcrafter. I really like the Shaman too because it get's Hexes... and my most liked 3.5 caster is the Warlock. I just never get the chance to play a caster and would probably mess something up if I have to. If I had to rank it I would most likely say Wizard>Cleric>Witch, all in T1.

Or, you know, your statement is wrong (which it is.) I'm honestly surprised at you Kurald, but since I have to do this, let's go ahead and take a look:

1) Getting Information - they can't scry (witches can), they can't send messages (witches can), they can't read minds (witches can), they're stopped by language barriers (witches aren't), they can't charm (witches can), they don't get legend lore to find the plot (witches do), they can't ask planar entities for advice (witches can) etc.

2) Dealing with status effects - they can't heal (witches can), can't dispel (witches can), they can't resurrect (witches can), can't deal with poison (witches can), can't deal with disease (witches can), can't deal with curses (witches can), can't deal with paralysis or petrification (witches can), can't deal with insanity (witches can), can't deal with negative levels (witches can) etc.

3) Transportation - they can't teleport (witches can), they can't plane shift (witches can), can't astral project (witches can), can't create a demiplane (witches can). They do get Ghost Wolf and Fly at least.

4) Contributing to any combat - They can blast and swing, which is not nothing. However, they get barely any summons (witches do), weak battlefield control (witches have plenty), no mind control or possession (witches do), few saveless debuffs (witches get plenty)...

I'd continue but I think (hope) you get the point. Witches are T1.

To rub more salt into it, Bloodragers get those things quite late. Fly at level 10 IF you use up one of your 2 spells for that level. Basically taking Haste + Fly and you are done. Things a wizard/witch could do from level 5 on. (Witch might not have haste available, don't know if one patron gives that).

EDIT:

A "clearly weaker" list is hardly in and of itself a defining factor. The fact that I paid extra for the seafood buffet does not change the fact that my fiance's "normal" buffet is still a full meal.

We all concede that Wizard is Tier 1. I pose two questions.

1) At what level do your other Tier 1 classes become Tier 1. It certainly is not level 1.
2) What specific problem can all your other Tier 1 classes solve that a Witch cannot ever solve?

Depends, a T1 class CAN start invalidating whole encounters with abilites at level 1. For most I think it will be around level 6 where Full BaB classes get their second attack now all full casters have access to third level spells and enough resources to last a comfortable while.

For 2) I think maybe Shapeshifting since that is probably better done on a 3/4 BaB class... and even then is still pretty low on power afaik.

Barstro

2017-03-08, 02:07 PM

For 2) I think maybe Shapeshifting since that is probably better done on a 3/4 BaB class... and even then is still pretty low on power afaik.
Shapeshifting is a possible solution to a problem, not a problem itself. I do not consider that an answer to my asked question.

Psyren

2017-03-08, 02:43 PM

Shapeshifting is a possible solution to a problem, not a problem itself. I do not consider that an answer to my asked question.

Precisely. "Shapeshifting" isn't a problem; Shapeshifting is a means to solve problems.

"Problems" are narrative/dramatic obstacles that must be addressed through play. Things like "I need to locate and destroy the lich's phylactery" or "I need to eavesdrop on this important meeting to convince the king he's in danger" or "I need to escape from this dungeon and free my friends too" or "I need to research demon's true name so I can make it leave." Shapeshifting can solve a lot of these, but there are other ways too, and what matters is that the class in question can deal with them - not how.

In fact, some of these can probably be taken up a level. "I need to...convince the king he's in danger." "I need to...make the demon leave." The more approaches a class has to these problems, the more the party does, and therefore the more narratively complex and interesting the problems themselves can be.

upho

2017-03-08, 03:23 PM

Hoping the voting hasn't closed:

Cleric: T1. While the PF cleric's ceiling is lower than the 3.5 version, they get some pretty considerable baseline improvements. If comparing low-mid op builds I suspect the PF cleric would come out on top. Definitely still T1.

Druid: T2? This one's really tricky IMO. One the one hand, druids are prepared full casters. On the other hand, the weaker spell list, combined with a weaker AC and especially the WS nerfs, in practice PF druids aren't nearly as versatile and superior in all areas as 3.5 druids IME. The fact that druids are now forced to specialize in order to excel in a certain area during most levels, combined with fewer and weaker utility and adaptability options, means I don't really think the class meets the T1 criteria. Druids can still make for immensely effective and versatile combatants or very strong "jack of all trades"-ish builds for example, so I'm leaning towards high T2.

Wizard: T1. I think the PF wizard is differs from the 3.5 wizard in much the same ways the PF cleric differs from the 3.5 cleric (lower ceiling, higher floor), except the wizard's net gain from the transition is much greater than the cleric's.

Witch: T1. While hexes generally aren't nearly as strong as spells of course, I think the actual versatility and power they offer is primarily in other "dimensions" of versatility which seem to often be largely overlooked. I'm primarily speaking of hexes being spammable and IME often more useful than spells alone against truly challenging high CR opponents (at least during early and mid levels). For example, Evil Eye and Cackle makes for a debuff tool which in most cases is effective regardless of whether the enemy has strong SR, silly high saves and the general durability and mobility to make summoned creatures and BFC spells largely ineffective. That said, I think the relatively weak casting and the lack of other strong class features means the witch is very low T1.

We all concede that Wizard is Tier 1. I pose two questions.

1) At what level do your other Tier 1 classes become Tier 1. It certainly is not level 1.
2) What specific problem can all your other Tier 1 classes solve that a Witch cannot ever solve?

1) Depends much on class and op levels of course, but generally speaking this happens somewhere between level 5 and 9 IME.
2) Can't think of anything off the top of my head. But with a bit of thought I guess one could construct a problem specifically for this purpose, for example by tying the only solution to a specific combo of spells which aren't on the witch's spell list. But a problem adventurers are actually likely to face in most games? No, I don't think so.

4) Contributing to any combat - They can blast and swing, which is not nothing. However, they get barely any summons (witches do), weak battlefield control (witches have plenty), no mind control or possession (witches do), few saveless debuffs (witches get plenty)...While I agree with the rest of your post, I have to say that claiming the bloodrager "can blast" is being extremely lenient on the definition of "can" in this context. Of all the classes with blasting spells on their lists, Bloodragers are by far the least capable of using those spells effectively. In most games and for a very large majority of bloodrager builds, I'd say any spell which targets enemies and allows a save, is affected by SR, and/or simply requires a standard action in combat is a trap, unintentionally laid by devs seemingly ignorant of the actual implications and limitations of 4/9 casting on a melee chassis.

To rub more salt into it, Bloodragers get those things quite late. Fly at level 10 IF you use up one of your 2 spells for that level. Basically taking Haste + Fly and you are done. Things a wizard/witch could do from level 5 on. (Witch might not have haste available, don't know if one patron gives that).Yeah. Although it's worth noting that this doesn't mean the bloodrager isn't able to benefit greatly from it's buff spells, especially since greater bloodrage actually provides a unique mechanic for vastly improved casting of such spells (unlike offensive spells). But like Psyren pointed out, the whole comparison to the witch is kinda ridiculous to begin with.

Bucky

2017-03-08, 04:00 PM

Lower level Druids are competing with Summoners within one of their specialties. However, a side by side comparison shows the Druid list to be much deeper at each level, even though Druids have more levels total.

Psyren

2017-03-08, 04:06 PM

While I agree with the rest of your post, I have to say that claiming the bloodrager "can blast" is being extremely lenient on the definition of "can" in this context. Of all the classes with blasting spells on their lists, Bloodragers are by far the least capable of using those spells effectively. In most games and for a very large majority of bloodrager builds, I'd say any spell which targets enemies and allows a save, is affected by SR, and/or simply requires a standard action in combat is a trap, unintentionally laid by devs seemingly ignorant of the actual implications and limitations of 4/9 casting on a melee chassis.

I agree it's weak but it's not nothing. Put a Barbarian up against a swarm, across a chasm from enemy archers, or in vehicular combat, and they're probably going to have a bad time. But both the Bloodrager and the Witch at least have options in these cases.

Gnaeus

2017-03-08, 05:05 PM

Hoping the voting hasn't closed:
.

As in the parent threads, I'm not really planning on closing voting, although I'll probably wait until discussion dies down or for a few more days anyway before I retally votes.

upho

2017-03-08, 06:33 PM

I agree it's weak but it's not nothing. Put a Barbarian up against a swarm, across a chasm from enemy archers, or in vehicular combat, and they're probably going to have a bad time. But both the Bloodrager and the Witch at least have options in these cases.Agreed.

As a side note, I also think your examples make for a pretty good summary of the points I made in my previous post. Namely that the bloodrager's blasting capability is so weak it virtually never motivates the cost of a spell known (potentially offering an actual advantage basically only in the case of swarms, and most likely a rather minor one even in that very specific case), while the bloodrager's self-buffing capability is a lot more useful and actually works as a force/applicability multiplier of the class' primary strength (meaning the bloodrager would be much better off casting fly or similar and charge the archers than wasting precious few spell slots on casting pathetically weak fireballs across the chasm).

As in the parent threads, I'm not really planning on closing voting, although I'll probably wait until discussion dies down or for a few more days anyway before I retally votes.Cool! Might change my mind about the druid if I see some convincing arguments.

Psyren

2017-03-08, 06:39 PM

Oh I agree but sometimes "go into melee anyway" is not the best answer to a ranged foe. Though I suppose they can just grab a composite bow or Belt of Mighty Hurling rather than trying to blast.

NamelessNPC

2017-03-08, 08:52 PM

Any reason you didn't include the shaman and arcanist?

In any case, I vote tier 1 for all of them. I had this idea first coming to the thread that the witch's list was awful, but actually it's pretty much ok. It lacks blasting, invisibility and top notch buffs, but has charm/dominate, battlefield control, debuffs, teleport, healing & resurrection.

StreamOfTheSky

2017-03-08, 09:27 PM

For a prepared caster to be T2 you need to point out some category of problem it cannot solve tomorrow with its spell list and class abilities. Combat? Information gathering? Infiltration? Bypassing threats with crowd control, disguise, or transportation?

What is the glaring weakness in the Witch or Druid spell list, not covered by class abilities, that makes them T2?

Nonsense. The difference between tier 1 and 2 is supposed to be the number of avenues they have to break the game and/or the ability to switch between them daily.

Witch's spell list is woefully niche and can't deal effectively with whole swathes of creature types, and until high levels the offensive hex options don't help this much.
A DM will have more trouble keeping a Sorcerer from breaking the game than a Witch.

Druid likewise has a very weak spell list. It's more varied than Witch and they can contribute in any situation...as can most tier 3's and 4's. They have few true "nukes" to worry about.

You act like being tier 2 means those two classes are weak or something. Tier 2 is still RealUltimatePower. Don't forget that.

Psyren

2017-03-08, 10:11 PM

Witch's spell list is woefully niche and can't deal effectively with whole swathes of creature types, and until high levels the offensive hex options don't help this much.

I like the "effectively" hedge you tried to sneak in there, but elaborate - which creature types can't they deal with?

Coretron03

2017-03-08, 10:46 PM

I like the "effectively" hedge you tried to sneak in there, but elaborate - which creature types can't they deal with?

I first thought undead but the first spell on their list is adhesive spittle which is "make a saving throw or be useless" against your average low reflex undead. Witches do have a really good spell list though, they get alot of utility as hexes can hold pretty well in combat, from Slumber's save or die to Fortune's party wide all day no combat actions required buffing (if you do it right). Your gonna want a backup against creatures immune to mind affecting creatures but witches are solid spellcasters. You can do with just buffing your allies instead of launching save or dies. Patrons spells can be pretty good too, some of them can give haste and such.

Snowbluff

2017-03-08, 11:41 PM

The only difference between T1 and T2 is spell access methods. If your spell list isn't robust to be T1 ( and therefore T2 with limited spell access), you are T3.

Ergo, these are all T1.

Bucky

2017-03-09, 12:26 AM

No, spell list size clearly matters. If a class used a wizards' spell access method, but its spell list was so small that a sorcerer could take them all as spells known, it'd be tier 2 even if it was all good spells.

However, a witch has at least 5 times that many spells on her list.

Kurald Galain

2017-03-09, 01:45 AM

I first thought undead but the first spell on their list is adhesive spittle which is "make a saving throw or be useless" against your average low reflex undead.

Let's read that spell again, shall we? You cast the spell as a standard action, then once within one-round-per-level you can entangle one creature as a second standard action. In addition it has a pitifully short range. That this is being touted as an example of the witch's power suggests that the class is much weaker than people think.

Psyren

2017-03-09, 01:52 AM

I first thought undead but the first spell on their list is adhesive spittle which is "make a saving throw or be useless" against your average low reflex undead. Witches do have a really good spell list though, they get alot of utility as hexes can hold pretty well in combat, from Slumber's save or die to Fortune's party wide all day no combat actions required buffing (if you do it right). Your gonna want a backup against creatures immune to mind affecting creatures but witches are solid spellcasters. You can do with just buffing your allies instead of launching save or dies. Patrons spells can be pretty good too, some of them can give haste and such.

Mudball's a good one at low levels too.

Against immune to mind affecting and even outright magic immunity, they can just summon something to beat it up - they get SM all the way to 9. Or locate and dominate/possess a bruiser of some kind to deal with the problem. Or lock it up in ice and move on. And as you mentioned, Patrons expand this even further.

Coretron03

2017-03-09, 02:31 AM

Let's read that spell again, shall we? You cast the spell as a standard action, then once within one-round-per-level you can entangle one creature as a second standard action. In addition it has a pitifully short range. That this is being touted as an example of the witch's power suggests that the class is much weaker than people think.

Sorry, Misread that spell. Still, Witches are powerful. And I was merely looking for a spell that hard counters undead enemies, not a "Win every fighter every" spell. I could show you a low level witch capable of giving everyone within 30ft a free reroll on any check, attack or save every round needing no actions with a duration of 6 hours minium. You can pump some hexes dc very high for save or lose effects. Without using any spells. I could make a witch that contributes ver heavily in combat and could still use every spell they had for buffs and utility. They get the same ease of adding new spells to their famliar as a wizard and just as many spells per level as them.

Hell, while getting a bit theoretical you could take leadership, ignore your cohort because he doesn't matter and get a bunch of witch followers and win because you've got min/level buffs that last the entire adventuring day and round/level buffs (like haste via patron) lasting over 100 minutes. Witches can solve a hella lot of problems and you'd be hardpressed to find one they couldn't roll and even harder pressed to find one their useless in.

StreamOfTheSky

2017-03-09, 02:54 AM

I like the "effectively" hedge you tried to sneak in there, but elaborate - which creature types can't they deal with?

Undead, constructs, plants, vermin. Arguably outsiders, too.

Yes, they get a Patron. Most don't even expand their spell list and those that do, many of the new spells gained are poor. There are a few patrons that add 4 or 5 good spells to their list, of course you only get one patron. Nothing the witch can do to expand beyond her niche surpasses what a Sorcerer can do to expand his limited spells known, and in the Sorc's case he's expanding it with the best spell list in the game.

Again, tier 2 is still god mode. It's not like I'm demoting Witch that much by saying it's tier 2. Tier 2 can still solve most problems if spells are chosen right, they just can't break the game as flexibly as a tier 1.

Coretron03

2017-03-09, 03:26 AM

Undead, constructs, plants, vermin. Arguably outsiders, too.

Undead: Umd (Trait for int to umd) a scroll of control undead/summon something to kill it/Silent image/Once level 5 fly and laugh at it
Contructs: Summon somthing/ Once level 5 fly and laugh
The rest depends on your level range a bit too much but can be worked around mostly. Witches have the best mode of flight early on though which lets them ignore/trvialise alot of encounters.

If you don't like your patron spells pick up the gravewalker archtype and swap them out for command undead and animate dead and you can wreck. Animate dead lets your roll challenges hard, especially when you can abuse blood money.

Gnaeus

2017-03-09, 07:31 AM

Undead: Umd (Trait for int to umd) a scroll of control undead/summon something to kill it/Silent image/Once level 5 fly and laugh at it
Contructs: Summon somthing/ Once level 5 fly and laugh
The rest depends on your level range a bit too much but can be worked around mostly. Witches have the best mode of flight early on though which lets them ignore/trvialise alot of encounters.

Also, all of those things tend to be bruisers vulnerable to Misfortune. It's not too sexy against smart casting undead, but it's more than adequate against the others. Most of the time, once the Misfortune lands, a golem fight closely resembles the fighter beating down a door with his adamantine weapon.

Psyren

2017-03-09, 08:44 AM

Undead, constructs, plants, vermin. Arguably outsiders, too.

Summons. Control spells. Debuffs. Magic Jar. Coaxing Spell. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/coaxing-spell-metamagic/) Threnodic Spell. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/threnodic-spell-metamagic/) Hell, they can even blast, with things like Chill Touch or Lightning Bolt. And I haven't even bothered with Patrons and archetypes.

Really man, your stance reflects more on your own inability to build a witch than anything to do with the class. Have you even read their spell list?

upho

2017-03-09, 12:23 PM

Summons. Control spells. Debuffs. Magic Jar. Coaxing Spell. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/coaxing-spell-metamagic/) Threnodic Spell. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/threnodic-spell-metamagic/) Hell, they can even blast, with things like Chill Touch or Lightning Bolt. And I haven't even bothered with Patrons and archetypes.

Really man, your stance reflects more on your own inability to build a witch than anything to do with the class. Have you even read their spell list?I'm getting the impression SotS has primarily missed the PF metamagic options which didn't exist in 3.5.

Regardless, witches can certainly deal with all the creature types mentioned. Not always quite as effectively as a wizard or a sorcerer, but effectively enough. And regarding the comparison to the sorcerer, I'd say this depends largely on whether you're getting the best (human) FCB or not. If you do, then the sorcerer is T1 IMO. Standard vanilla sorcerer remains T2 and (slightly) weaker than the witch IMO.