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darni
2017-03-01, 12:12 PM
Hi, I'm designing an item for a pathfinder campaign I run; this will be given to one of my party members (an archery based 15th level ranger), and my goal is to make it valuable an used, but not unbalanced. The purpose of the item is to provide her means of making area based attacks; and it's inspired from fifth edition's "Conjure Barrage" spell.

My main question is: do you have any guidelines to set save DCs of effects?. This is my first 100% homebrew item so I don't want to mess it much. My reference points are weapon special abilities (DC 14 for disruption, thundering and glorious, DC 13 for ominous) which seem a bit low for a limited uses. Looking at wondrous item I found a much wider range of saves (DC 11 for a cape of bravado, DC 16 for a bead of force, DC 19 for an apple of eternal sleep, DC 23 for a cubic gate). Any suggestions? Right now I'm using 16 but that came from nowhere.

For reference, here's what I have now:



Vine of shards

This vine wraps itself around any kind of bow. Three times a day, and at most once per round while making an attack with the bow, the vine produces a special arrow that can be shot in that attack. This arrow is used instead of other ammunition and does not require an attack roll to shoot. When this arrow is shot it splinters into a 40 feet cone of shards that inflict 3x the arrow damage dice (3d8 for a medium sized longbow), plus any enhancement and strength modifiers, and additional damage dice if the bow normally confers those. Targets in the affected area can halve damage by making a successful DC 16 Reflex saving throw. The damage type is usually the same as would be inflicted when firing a regular non-magical arrow from the same bow, although it is always considered magical damage even if the bow is mundane. The damage is subject to damage reduction.

The damage does not receive the benefit of any special abilities of the attacker that apply to specific atacks (like Vital Strike or Deadly Aim), and does not receive the benefit of any abilities that depend on the circumstance or the specific target (like Sneak Attack, Favored Enemy, Point blank shot, Smite Evil). The damage does receive a bonus from those abilities that would function in any circumstance while shooting this bow at any target (like Weapon Specialization or Fighter's Weapon Training). Also, the damage does receive a weapon damage bonus from an effect that applies to all attacks from the attacker (like Prayer or Divine Favor), all attacks to the defender (like a cleric's Destruction Aura) or all attacks with the weapon (like Weapon of Awe)


Of course, if you have any other comments I also appreciate them. A secondary question is how much would you put as an item value or crafting prerequisites. Those are less important to me right now given that I'm handwaving that a high level druid NPC is crafting this and giving it to the party as a boon, but it would be nice so other people can use the item if they like :)

ShiningStarling
2017-03-01, 12:48 PM
I like it a lot. I would recommend scaling DC with their Dex modifier, as that's the only way it will remain relevant. Maybe 13+Dex? (The DC of a Fireball if you could cast with Dex)

aimlessPolymath
2017-03-01, 01:12 PM
The standard DC for effects is given by the minimum spell DC to replicate the effect. For example, a cape of bravado is powered by a first level spell (compel hostility), which requires a minimum stat of 11 to cast; thus, the save DC is 10 + 1(1st level spell) + 0(+0 stat modifier)
For weapon enchantments, no idea- the save DC for disruption actually makes no sense to me. Maybe...
Ominous weapons make sense under this if you call them a 2nd level spell effect (scare is a prerequisite)
Thundering weapons only make if you use the cleric version of blindness/deafness, which is a 3rd level spell rather than 2nd level
Disrupting weapons only work at the same level, but they work off of heal, which is fifth level.

Scaling the save DC with a stat modifier is just something you would make a general rule for weapons- no opinion there except that you would slightly drop the base DC.

I'd need to take a further look at the actual effect of this to give it a level, but the big question here is what level would a ranger(say) get this as a spell? I think that's the thing you would use to measure it. DC 16 (or 14+stat) is a 4th level spell, DC 14(or 13+stat) is 3rd level, 12(+stat) is 2nd, and 11(+stat) is 1st.
I'd call it at least a 3rd level spell a first glance, for what it's worth- that's where the good area of effect spells start coming out.

This level evaluation is also important for pricing- this is a no-slot wonderous item with a 3/day power, not a weapon enchantment.

darni
2017-03-01, 05:43 PM
I like it a lot. I would recommend scaling DC with their Dex modifier, as that's the only way it will remain relevant. Maybe 13+Dex? (The DC of a Fireball if you could cast with Dex)

Interesting way of keeping it relevant... do you know of any other item that works like this? Thanks!

darni
2017-03-01, 06:05 PM
The standard DC for effects is given by the minimum spell DC to replicate the effect. For example, a cape of bravado is powered by a first level spell (compel hostility), which requires a minimum stat of 11 to cast; thus, the save DC is 10 + 1(1st level spell) + 0(+0 stat modifier)
For weapon enchantments, no idea- the save DC for disruption actually makes no sense to me. Maybe...
Ominous weapons make sense under this if you call them a 2nd level spell effect (scare is a prerequisite)
Thundering weapons only make if you use the cleric version of blindness/deafness, which is a 3rd level spell rather than 2nd level
Disrupting weapons only work at the same level, but they work off of heal, which is fifth level.

Scaling the save DC with a stat modifier is just something you would make a general rule for weapons- no opinion there except that you would slightly drop the base DC.

I'd need to take a further look at the actual effect of this to give it a level, but the big question here is what level would a ranger(say) get this as a spell? I think that's the thing you would use to measure it. DC 16 (or 14+stat) is a 4th level spell, DC 14(or 13+stat) is 3rd level, 12(+stat) is 2nd, and 11(+stat) is 1st.
I'd call it at least a 3rd level spell a first glance, for what it's worth- that's where the good area of effect spells start coming out.

This level evaluation is also important for pricing- this is a no-slot wonderous item with a 3/day power, not a weapon enchantment.

OK, I like this approach in the sense that it has some consistency (and btw the inspiration for this is a 5th edition which actually is level 3 spell, so even being different systems it gives a rough idea).

Regarding prices I'm not 100% sure if considering this slotless, it is in a way similar to 3.5ed weapon crystals (they share the "weapon" slot), but it doesn't use up one of the normal wondrous item slots.

What did you mean by «Scaling the save DC with a stat modifier is just something you would make a general rule for weapons» ?

Thanks for your help!

aimlessPolymath
2017-03-01, 06:13 PM
No items currently increase their save DC based on the user's ability score, as was suggested by the poster before me. If you liked, you could houserule it to change this. If you did, you would replace all existing static DCs with a new, smaller DC to which an ability score modifier is added. This would significantly increase these items' value.
Table of replacements:


Now:
11
13
14
16
17
19
20
22
23


Changed:
11+stat
12+stat
13+stat
14+stat
15+stat
16+stat
17+stat
18+stat
19+stat



Of course, this would be a houserule, and isn't for everyone. If this is a game you're currently running, it's probably not what you want to do.


Pricing items like this is simple, in general. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/#Table-Estimating-Magic-Item-Gold-Piece-Values)

Level-guess edit:
I would call this a spell of level approximately 3. The damage is roughly on-par with level 2 spells like Scorching Ray, but the effect is turned into an area effect. If we take a look at the Sculpt Spell metamagic feat, we see that a 40-foot cone costs appriximately +1 spell level, so upgrading our imaginary 2nd level spell which works like Scorching Ray but is a single-target area effect to a cone makes it a 3rd level spell. Another comparable spell might be Whirling Blade, from the Spell Compendium, which is also an area effect.
Since we're changing one attack out of a full attack, it's more-or-less similar to changing one ray out of Scorching Ray. Since we're increasing the damage but tweaking the area, it feels about as good as Whirling Blade +1 level. in any case, we roughly have the right spell level (~fireball-ish), so it should be OK.
This sets a spell level of 3, a base DC of 14 or 13+stat bonus (depending on whether you houserule it), and the rough value of this spell is:

3*5*1800 for a use-activated magic item = 27,000
* 3/5 since it has charges per day = 16,200 gp
*2 for not having a magic item slot = 32,400 gp.
It augments about one attack out of several, so that feels about right. If you make it take up the arms slot (and so it would compete with Bracers of Archery), I'd cut it back down to 16,200.

The spell itself is sort of a quickened spell, but not really. If you bump it up to level 4 to compensate for this, the price would go up to
4*7*1800 = 50,400
*3/5 for charges ~= 30,000 (rounding!)
* 2 for no magic item slot = 60,000

I wouldn't put it above this level- it feels so much like a ranger spell, I don't have the heart to not let them get it. It also doesn't compete favorably with druid spells at that level.
Crafting Prerequisites: Craft Wonderous Item, arrow spray (an imaginary 3rd-4th level spell with that effect- note that druid preparation means that they can just grab it whenever), half the cost in GP of whatever price/slot you settle on.

Edit because you just responded:
If there are lots of weapon crystals in your game, then cut its price as though it were an item with a slot. If there are some but not a lot, maybe adjust the multiplier to *1.5. If there are next to none, leave it at *2. The price multiplier is because of the fact that using a slotless item means you don't have to give up an existing item- thus, if there is competition for the slot, then you can reduce that multiplier.

darni
2017-03-02, 07:45 AM
Thanks very much for the clarifications. From what I see now the DC should probably be set at 14 with the item as described. So my next step is figuring out if the item as described is of the appropriate power level for the character I'm planning to give this to. I'm inclined to say that I feel that this damage output and DC may be a bit underwhelming. Being a 15th level character, let's say that this will be used against groups (because it's an area effect) of slightly lower CR opponents (12 or 13). From the Monster Statistics by CR Table in the bestiary (and looking at a few examples), saves of this creatures will be around 11 to 16, so most of the time the damage output will be halved, making a total effect (damage*affected creatures) lower than taking a regular attack instead(*) unless there are enough properly positioned targets.

I'm thinking that a possible fix is to crank up the damage a little bit to both a) make this equivalent to a higher level spell and consequentially raise the DC and b) make the damage relevant even when it's halved. I'm thinking around 4d8 to 6d8 (forgetting about weapon size, to avoid complication). 6d8 sounds like edging on overpowered (it's almost like an autocrit, although as a limited resource and not able to use all the damage bonus and subject to stuff like evasion).

What do you folks think? do you think this is an actual problem, or am I making this overpowered? in that case, what solution would you find? Thanks again!

(*) I just noticed that the way this is written it encourages to use this to replace your last iterative attack in a full attack, which has a lower chance to hit anyway, so in this case that may work. I'm not sure if this is a good thing or a bad thing design-wise :)

aimlessPolymath
2017-03-02, 11:51 AM
Yeah, that's the basic problem with magic items, really. Saving throws scale too fast for a 3rd level spell to be able to hit, usually.

Damage turns out to be actually fine-ish- 3x longbow damage divided by 2 is about regular longbow damage (ignoring static bonuses). Even if it wasn't, if you hit two people for half damage, you're coming out ahead (barring damage reduction) thanks to the 3d8 base damage.

You'd need to pump the spell level a lot to give it good odds on having the targets fail the save; it may not really be worth it (doubling the spell level to 6 increases the DC to 19. They'll still make the save, but this definitely isn't a 6th level spell, and the price of the item goes up by a factor of about 4). Its a general issue with magic items with save DCs which don't scale.

As I mentioned before, you could make the overhaul part of a general change to the way magic items in general work. This would bump up the power of low-level magic items, and you might want to restrict it to non-spell trigger or spell completion items for balance reasons (i.e. not wands, scrolls, or staves), but it would be a way to make crappy enchantments like thundering and ominous less bad, and would keep this item relevant. I would not advise modifying only this item unless you add it to the prerequisites in some way (custom feat?).