Evil PC in city of hard line paladins. Help.

[Rotsu]

So as the title would lead you to believe, the group finds themselves in the city of paladins, good clerics etc. One of the players is LE, and the others are Good, or Neutral, and doing good things. This PC is an Anti-Paladin "Oath-breaker" in 5e and has just been dropped (Via magical teleportation) into the city (That they were headed to anyways.) I think that the paladins there would discern that the PC is evil through his actions. (they are going to ask the LG otherPaladin questions on the side about the others. They are going to do this with everyone. The city is cautious of these people randomly appearing.)
How do I handle a city of "Classic paladins" dealing with an evil PC who they are going to be told has done evil, keeps secret Identities etc.
Please Help, and thanks in advance.
Rotsu
PS. The players are on the cusp of level 5 if that helps

[Honest Tiefling]

Well, I can't say that your premise doesn't make sense, but why is the Evil PC there? How did they get teleported? Ask the player if they have any ideas.

If these people are so cautious, they might not trust the paladins either. It's pretty easy to buff a suit of armor, insert a stick, get a white horse and some holy symbols and pretend to be a paladin. Magic can be foiled and is probably expensive. So anything they say should be taken with a grain of salt and probably proven with observation.

As for the Oathbreaker? They're an Oathbreaker, right? At one point they must have believed in those oaths. If they are travelling with some goody-goody two shoes, there are only two possibilities: 1) The party is trying to reform them or 2) they have a nefarious scheme. In the case of the former, perhaps the paladins want to see their brethren returned to the fold.

In the case of the later, well, if you execute the guy you both lose valuable information on the scheme and how the heck he got teleported in. Nothing says you can't observe, right? If he has help from the outside, you'd want to know that.

[Kane0]

Being evil doesn't stop you from being rational. If surrounded by people that will do bad things to you if you do X, then don't do X until you can get away with it.

If directly questioned you can always lie, the only thing you really need to worry about are things like zone of truth (which still offer a save). Play your character rather than your alignment.

[Geddy2112]

Being evil doesn't stop you from being rational. If surrounded by people that will do bad things to you if you do X, then don't do X until you can get away with it.
This. Even not so bright criminals usually know not to directly flaunt crimes in front of the cops.


I think that the paladins there would discern that the PC is evil through his actions.
As said by Kane0, they will only discern that the oathbreaker is evil if he openly does evil things.


(they are going to ask the LG otherPaladin questions on the side about the others. They are going to do this with everyone. The city is cautious of these people randomly appearing.)
How do I handle a city of "Classic paladins" dealing with an evil PC who they are going to be told has done evil, keeps secret Identities etc.
Since you know how the NPC's are going to act, I assume you are the DM? Are you sure their friends are going to rat out the oathbreaker? Are these dudly do right's the type to simply arrest and interrogate people who randomly appear? What if somebody did let it be know that so and so is a bad guy? Are they going to execute him based on hearsay? Is even the possibility of being evil grounds for being arrested or killed? Does not sound like good paladins to me.
Do they have to be so hardlined? If you know this person is in the party, and they got teleported here, when you know this will basically lead to them going smitehammer on a particular PC, are you sure you want to do that?

[BabyCthulhu]

I would say roll with it, it's a situation that could be fun or very dangerous depending on the group actions, but I would let them figure out how to handle it.
The paladins on the city should just be paladins. Ones might one to capture him, ones try to reform him, others judge him, etc. Let the group find a way out this mess!

[Rotsu]

Yes I am the DM, and yes, I know that the Paladins would listen to the other paladin because he is from the city and has been sworn in by them. They know this guy. He doesn't lie.
It isn't that they are going to rat him out its just I know that these paladins are really weary, some of the holy texts they follow were stolen recently, and they think it was an arcane casters, evidenced by the fact that there was magic cast at the place the scroll was kept.
They were teleported in by a powerful NPC who was saving them for plot reasons. The NPC stayed behind to "hold the horde while they made an escape."
Cliche but it worked.
They were told that they were going somewhere safe, and where good folk like them could relax and get stronger. This NPC hadn't checked the party for evil, assuming that they were actually good.
The party members, or the two Good aligned ones (out of the four) really disagree and have made it known that they think that this guy should be punished. He thinks they are joking, but one of them is a paladin who's home city they are in. He is likely to be asked about if he sits wrong, with the holy text theft being as recent as it is.
They are going to ask for a report from the Paladin they know. Him being a paladin of devotion and telling no lies will immediately do so, and leave out no details. This will see the paladins trying to fix the anti-paladin and when that starts they simply will not stop until one of two things is decided. He is good and has re-taken an oath. or two, he is irredeemable and needs to be imprisoned.
The problem I have is how to make this seem "okay" to the player. like I don't want to ruffle too many feathers, but these paladins will not like, or abide by his actions. All it would take for them to confirm is call in one of the clerics to cast detect evil, and then they know for sure. I cant see a world where these paladins don't seriously ruffle this guy. or he just loses the character. I know how much that sucks. Trying to find a way around it if I can. Not make him upset. if that's possible.
Sorry If I was not clear and hopefully this helps?
Rotsu.

[Kane0]

Firstly: Never, ever assume a PC will do what you expect.

Secondly: Never let the truth get in the way of a good story

Thirdly: Have you seen the recent paladin UA? It offers some nice alternate paladin Oaths that fill the gap between 'Holy, virtuous do-gooder' and 'Drowns puppies for kicks'

[Coretex]

It sounds like you've put the Evil Paladin in an almost impossible place.

At this point you need to decide (or if you don't feel strongly about it: talk to the player) what you want to do to the Evil Paladin.

If you (or the player) wants to keep him alive then you will need to give him extra options to conceal his true nature, get out of the way (hide), or have his nature ignored by the city (hes too useful or something).

If you play this out then "realistically" a city full of good paladins with full knowledge of an evil paladin amongst them will be hard pressed not to end his adventuring career.

[Desamir]

They are going to ask for a report from the Paladin they know. Him being a paladin of devotion and telling no lies will immediately do so, and leave out no details. This will see the paladins trying to fix the anti-paladin and when that starts they simply will not stop until one of two things is decided. He is good and has re-taken an oath. or two, he is irredeemable and needs to be imprisoned.
The problem I have is how to make this seem "okay" to the player. like I don't want to ruffle too many feathers, but these paladins will not like, or abide by his actions. All it would take for them to confirm is call in one of the clerics to cast detect evil, and then they know for sure.

Detect Evil in 5e doesn't work the way you think it does. There's no easy way for Paladins and Clerics to detect alignment anymore.

[Rotsu]

Thirdly: Have you seen the recent paladin UA? It offers some nice alternate paladin Oaths that fill the gap between 'Holy, virtuous do-gooder' and 'Drowns puppies for kicks'

I showed him these options and was declined, I know that I should try to do something but, while I know how these paladins would act, I don't wanna punish him for being him. The problem is that when doing this as those NPCs would act, this situation is what results. I'm just looking and hoping that this guy doss't lose the character. I might offer him an item from other editions the "helm of contrariness" also known as the helm of alignment changing. For those who don't know, this would make his alignment CG until something (that I would set to be soon) happens that changes him back.
I could also just let him walk around and do what he wants in the town, and when he does anything evil have him punished. I already have some punishments planned for Goodie-two-shoes paladin, for allowing evil as he has. This guy is pretty useful to them for now, and isn't such a major issue in the big picture.
I'm just trying to figure out the design for this "encounter". It's mostly going to be games and celebrations, (Its the spring solstice in the game) so they might not care much right now, but they will definitely be watching this guy pretty closely. I'm happy with that, I guess.
I just want the players to have fun above all. You know?
Rotsu

[RickAllison]

Detect Evil in 5e doesn't work the way you think it does. There's no easy way for Paladins and Clerics to detect alignment anymore.

This. Ironically, the only class with ready access to alignment detection is a Warlock with a Pact of the Chain. The sprite familiar has the ability to detect alignment if they fail a DC 10 Charisma saving throw (which would be difficult for a paladin to do...), and can do that without restrictions. A Druid, high-level Ranger, or certain Bards could also do this by using the Conjure Woodland Beings/Fey spells.

If you want to do the sprite route, make sure you do that before they get the chance to be level 6. Once they reach level 6, a Paladin with at least 16 Charisma will never fail that saving throw.

[Geddy2112]

I could also just let him walk around and do what he wants in the town, and when he does anything evil have him punished.
This is a perfectly good solution. Most societies don't tolerate openly evil acts, and going around and being openly evil usually has consequences that one would call "punishments". You are not stopping him from beheading the first orphan he sees and proceeding to eat their decapitated head, just enforcing the logical consequences when the paladin guards draw their weapons and smite him into next year.


I just want the players to have fun above all. You know?
You know your players better than anyone. What will they find fun? If you think your players will respond positively or enjoy the encounter, then run it as is. If you don't want to change it, don't. If you don't give a darn what your players think and want to run it as is, then run it as is. If you think your players will hate it/not have fun/be upset and you care about this, then change it to where you think they will have the most fun. You are the DM: You can refluff the entire encounter, scrap it, tone down the hardline nature of the paladins, teleport the entire party into space, make the paladins even more hardline, cause the city to be covered in a fog of split pea soup, or really anything else by sheer fiat if you really want. Don't be hamstrung by your own game when you have the power to change it by snapping your fingers.

[Kane0]

Youre on the right track. Theres no need to punish the guy for circumstances out of his control.
Give him a lucky break or a convenient excuse, like bigger fish to fry, a chance to prove his intent or inept inquisitors. An item that obscures his alignment wont help because aligbment is largely sidelined in 5e, its personality and actions that run the show.
Then once he's (mostly) let off the hook he's free to screw up and get caught of his own accord.

[agnos]

There's a few things to remember:
1. From what you've said, you've been presuming the Oathbreaker's future path. Sure they may not like many of the things he's currently done, but are they irredeemable? He's 5th level.. probably not. "Classically" grading on intentions instead of actions is what leads to various "anti-paladins." So judge him on his actions and how good/bad they are.
2. LE paladins really aren't that bad and LG doesn't mean lawful stupid. There's generally too much evil in the world to eradicate it all. LG Paladins generally have to triage evil. The LE anti-Paladin may be evil, but is he actively working to bring on a greater evil or is he your run-of-the-mill self-serving evil.
3. Lets not forget that atonement quests classically required a long list of bull****. Whether or not the PC decides to atone or "atone" or tell them where to shove it kinda doesn't matter. How he acts on said quest (which he seems likely to go forward on if for no other reason than to get out of Dodge) is what matters. He is still bound to some things (it seems)

From what you've said, it seems like the LG Paladin city would have equal parts of guarded/watched, catholic guilt trip, gay conversion therapy, and prepared for the "really big bad evil guy." You know, think of him as a rebellious teenager; the parents will make threats they aren't want to keep. The kid will tell them they wish had a different dad. Tempers will flare and eventually there will be give on both sides because it's in the interest of both parties to give a little.

[Malifice]

The good paladins should torture and murder him obviously.

[The Zoat]

Have him stumble onto the hidden stash of a crazy-powerful evil wizard who was in the same predicament, but was better prepared. He forged a Ring of Flexibility, which increases Dex to a minimum of 14, but also allows the user to change alignment at will. The twist is that it's controlled by a copy of the original personality and the changed alignment is unaware of this.

[LordVonDerp]

I think that the paladins there would discern that the PC is evil through his actions.

What actions are those? More importantly, what has he done to make himself appear selfless and heroic (IE, Al Capone running soup kitchens)?



How do I handle a city of "Classic paladins" dealing with an evil PC who they are going to be told has done evil, keeps secret Identities etc.

Who is going to tell them?

[Randomthom]

Back in a 3.5 campaign I DM'd years ago I had a paladin player who liked to cast detect evil on everyone, every NPC, named or otherwise. Every time he did it to an NPC who I hadn't decided alignment for I'd roll a D10. Most of the time, 1-3 was Evil, 4-7 was neutral, 8-10 was good (so a slight bell-curve in favour of neutral).

This had the desired effect, eventually he realised that he couldn't trust his detect evil to make his decisions for him. He couldn't murderhobo/arrest someone purely for being evil, he had to catch them doing something immoral and/or illegal.

Your player can use the same logic. Just because he is inwardly evil, even if the Paladins know this, if he doesn't do anything (or get caught doing anything) untoward, the Paladins have no recourse to pursue him. Remember that traditional LG Paladins are servants of justice as well as of good.

They might decide to keep a close eye on him though...

[Unoriginal]

An Oathbreaker is enough of a threat that Paladins should be able to recognize them without too much difficulty, provided they committed crimes publicly in the region within 2-3 months and aren't disguised.

[Typhon]

Mission for redemption/Dirty Dozen. Even classic paladins knew that sometimes you needed people who did bad things in bad ways to do those things to even worse people. Thus why special forces and secret operations happen. Have them recruit the Oathbreaker to assist the known Paladin to return the stolen texts.

Even Batman sees the current Red Hood as someone who can and does do things in places he won't/can't go and handle things in a matter he won't.

"In the absence of light, darkness prevails. There are things that go bump in the night, Agen Meyers, make no mistake about that. And we are the ones that bump back." - Prof. Trevor "Broom" Bruttenholm

[Hobbo Jim]

You could make something happen and give him a chance to prove himself before judgement/interrogation occurs. Maybe they forgo the interrogation because they did good, or at least give him a little leeway and just keep an eye on him.
Like others are saying, it's hard to actually discover an alignment now. Give him a chance to talk his way out; paladin can come up with a different perspective that is more grey than evil, or perhaps just lie his way out saying the LG didn't see it right.
Or like another said. You don't just "retake" an oath. It's not that simple. He has to go on a quest, so maybe down the line the LG and LE will but heads because the LE doesn't really want to do it, could make for an interesting occurrence (but only if both members are up for the conflict)

Also to be fair, a question should be asked, why is the LG paladin working with the LE? Will the LG face judgement for working with evil? Or is the LE already in the LG's charge and no other imprisonment is necessary?