Does Bladesinger AC bonus stack with Unarmored Defense?

[BurgerBeast]

Apologies if this has been asked before, but:

We know that the Barbarian feature Unarmored Defense and the Monk feature Unarmored Defense do not stack, because they each provide a formula for determining AC:

While you are not wearing any armor, your Armor Class equals 10 + your Dexterity modifier + your Constitution modifier. You can use a shield and still gain this benefit. (PHB 48, emphasis added)

Beginning at 1st level, while you are wearing no armor and not wielding a shield, your AC equals 10 + your Dexterity modifier + your Wisdom modifier. (PHB 78, emphasis added)

The Bladesinger feature, Bladesong, however, does not provide a formula for AC. Rather, it provides a bonus to AC.

You gain a bonus to your AC equal to your Intelligence modifier (minimum of+1). (SCAG 142, emphasis added)

Is it safe to say, then, that a multi-classed Bladesinger/Barbarian wielding a one-handed weapon (or dual wielding) without armour or a shield would get to add Dex, Con, and Int to AC while performing the bladesong?

[retaliation08]

By RAW I think it would stack.

I don't think you could Rage and Bladesong at the same time, or at least should be able to. IDK if it is explicitly forbidden by RAW.

I think it would synergize better with the monks unarmored defense, especially if you went deep enough into monk to get the up the walls doodad that comes with their unarmored defense.

In either case, I think it would be a fairly suboptimal build with so much MAD. You would be really good at AC though. If you are trying to tank then it would still be better to play an EK or EK/Wizard.

EDIT: Ok I just realized an error in my thinking. By using Barbarian UAD you are not increasing MAD since CON is a priority anyway. It could be solid, but I am unsure about the Rage and Bladesong thing, or even if you were trying to go there.

[BurgerBeast]

Yeah, I think you're right. A friend pointed out that sage advice seems to confirm this, too.


I don't think you could Rage and Bladesong at the same time, or at least should be able to. IDK if it is explicitly forbidden by RAW.

This is my next question. Thematically it doesn't necessarily make sense (although I'd say it could), but can you rage and bladesing at the same time?

[Desamir]

Is it safe to say, then, that a multi-classed Bladesinger/Barbarian wielding a one-handed weapon (or dual wielding) without armour or a shield would get to add Dex, Con, and Int to AC while performing the bladesong?

Correct. In terms of actual effectiveness, using point buy you could end up with something like 20 Dex, 20+4 Con, and 16 Int by 20th level, resulting in 22 AC or 25 during bladesong. That's -2/+1 AC (normal/bladesong) compared to a pure barbarian with a shield, or +2 AC compared to a pure bladesinger.

[RickAllison]

Go for it! Bladesong is at its core a temporary boost meant to complement the actual AC of the Bladesinger. Usually, this would mean it is paired with Mage Armor, but it works fine with Unarmored Defense. This is similar to spells like Haste or Shield of Faith that provide a temporary boost to AC. This is contrasted with Mage Armor, Unarmored Defense, and even Barkskin that are meant to be a base AC and persist for (usually) multiple encounters. Barkskin is the odd one out, but it makes sense as a replacement for a Druid's Wild Shapes' AC.

Note that Bladesong is compatible with the Barbarian Rage, but that you are bound to the restrictions of both. That means you cannot cast spells or concentrate on them (Blink and Mirror Image could be useful in this regard), and you cannot use two-handed weapons (well, at least you can't make an attack with two hands with them) or shields. You also need two bonus actions to get both up and running, which prevents effective use when you are not prepared. But otherwise, go for it!

[bid]

Correct. In terms of actual effectiveness, using point buy you could end up with something like 20 Dex, 20+4 Con, and 16 Int by 20th level, resulting in 22 AC or 25 during bladesong. That's -2/+1 AC (normal/bladesong) compared to a pure barbarian with a shield, or +2 AC compared to a pure bladesinger.
Any race but buman is 1 point short of 16 16 14 because of the Str13 requirement. You must also split on an ASI level to reach Dex20, Con20, Int16. Obviously, you cannot get the barbarian capstone Con24 along with wizard 2 bladesong. That puts the limit at AC20/23.

This also assumes you are going for the dexbarian and will forego rage damage. Although Mountain dwarf could reach at Str22 Dex20 Con24 for AC23 I think.

[Desamir]

Any race but buman is 1 point short of 16 16 14 because of the Str13 requirement. You must also split on an ASI level to reach Dex20, Con20, Int16. Obviously, you cannot get the barbarian capstone Con24 along with wizard 2 bladesong. That puts the limit at AC20/23.

This also assumes you are going for the dexbarian and will forego rage damage. Although Mountain dwarf could reach at Str22 Dex20 Con24 for AC23 I think.

Thanks for the corrections, totally spaced there on the capstone.

[Arkhios]

By strict reading of both abilities (Rage and Bladesong), it would indeed look like they could be used in concert, which is actually pretty cool. Bladesong is magic as per description, but it's not "casting a spell" nor does it require concentration, so you could even start bladesong even while already raging.

I could totally see a wild elf barbarian/bladesinger going into arcane-infused berserk mode! :smallbiggrin:

[bid]

Thanks for the corrections, totally spaced there on the capstone.
You're welcome.

And I just had a brainfart too, Dex20 Con24 + shield is AC24.

[Bahamut7]

This is my next question. Thematically it doesn't necessarily make sense (although I'd say it could), but can you rage and bladesing at the same time?

Sure it does...the Bladesong is Deathmetal!

[djreynolds]

Yes you can, but realize having a 16 in Con/Wis for a +3 modifier is same as mage armor's +3, and studded leather +1.

It is doable, but with 5ASI and assuming maxing out dex and int... it will be tight

Now if you rolled stats, go for it. 19 bladesinger/1 barbarian looks just fine

[Randomthom]

Side-question, how would you fluff this?

Rather than "raging", I think I'd fluff it to be some sort of zen-like trance state (think River Tam vs the Reavers at the end of Serenity).

[Joe the Rat]

I'd put the weight of it as much on dance as song - bladedancing. I get a dervish flavor here as well.

Then again, I've seen HarmonQuest, which answers the "singing barbarian rage" question.


What sort of split would you put on this? Mostly Wizard? Slightly casty Barbarian?

[RickAllison]

I'd put the weight of it as much on dance as song - bladedancing. I get a dervish flavor here as well.

Then again, I've seen HarmonQuest, which answers the "singing barbarian rage" question.


What sort of split would you put on this? Mostly Wizard? Slightly casty Barbarian?

I almost see this as Ruby Rose from the RWBY Red trailer. For the first part she was methodical and acrobatic, then the music changed to the faster-paced Section near the end and she starts hacking apart everything in sight.

[BladeWing81]

What can unarmored defense stack with? Shield? Mage armor? Bladesong? or can only magic items like cloak/ring of protection braces of defense?

[Shaofoo]

What can unarmored defense stack with? Shield? Mage armor? Bladesong? or can only magic items like cloak/ring of protection braces of defense?

If the ability says that it gives + X AC then you can stack it.

If the ability says AC becomes X then you can't stack it.

So in your case Unarmored defense can stack with Shield and Bladesong but not with Mage Armor. Also if the magic item sets an AC then it doesn't stack but if it gives a bonus to AC then it stacks.

[Vaz]

Bladesinger with a level in Mystic to give you +1 AC and the Discipline for Psionic Shield. Take Fighter dip for Protection, and then Mariner later on. Get a Forge Cleric or Enchanted your Light Armou at a +1.

20 Dex, 20 Int, and you have AC 26, up to 32 Haste for 28/34.

[Flashy]

Any race but buman is 1 point short of 16 16 14 because of the Str13 requirement. You must also split on an ASI level to reach Dex20, Con20, Int16. Obviously, you cannot get the barbarian capstone Con24 along with wizard 2 bladesong. That puts the limit at AC20/23.

This also assumes you are going for the dexbarian and will forego rage damage. Although Mountain dwarf could reach at Str22 Dex20 Con24 for AC23 I think.

How is the mountain dwarf breaking the stat cap without the barbarian capstone?

[BladeWing81]

Bladesinger with a level in Mystic to give you +1 AC and the Discipline for Psionic Shield. Take Fighter dip for Protection, and then Mariner later on. Get a Forge Cleric or Enchanted your Light Armou at a +1.

20 Dex, 20 Int, and you have AC 26, up to 32 Haste for 28/34.

That's the other one I need, Psionics!! adding psionics abilities to the Monk like extra AC or extra damage dice to our flurry of blows would be awesome. More than a multiclass I would love a psionic subclass for barbarians and Monks.

[Bahamut7]

I'd put the weight of it as much on dance as song - bladedancing. I get a dervish flavor here as well.

Then again, I've seen HarmonQuest, which answers the "singing barbarian rage" question.


What sort of split would you put on this? Mostly Wizard? Slightly casty Barbarian?

I now envision Bladesong to cause the Bladesinger to river dance in combat.

[RickAllison]

I now envision Bladesong to cause the Bladesinger to river dance in combat.

... And now I am seeing a Bladesinger who drops a Wall of Ice on the field, skates across the wall to an opponent, then does a triple axel jump to hack apart enemies using the ice skates as dual-wielding weapons. And now I want to play this character...

[Bahamut7]

... And now I am seeing a Bladesinger who drops a Wall of Ice on the field, skates across the wall to an opponent, then does a triple axel jump to hack apart enemies using the ice skates as dual-wielding weapons. And now I want to play this character...

Team up and perform the Iron Lotus?

[RickAllison]

Team up and perform the Iron Lotus?

Forward!!!

[bid]

How is the mountain dwarf breaking the stat cap without the barbarian capstone?
That mountain dwarf was pure barbarian. Showing that the OP could compare barbsinger AC against a Dex20 barbarian.