Adding class levels to monsters: What and where?

[danielxcutter]

I know how to add class levels to monsters, but I'm not sure how to do it so it's powerful compared to it's CR, or at least good enough to be a good challenge. In a webcomic called Our Little Adventure, there's a Glabrezu with 17+ levels in Cleric and is thus CR 24 - that seems powerful. Anything else, or general advice?

[Mordaedil]

Every class level is a straight +1 to ECL and CR. NPC classes are +½ to CR.

[nyjastul69]

This (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/improvingMonsters.htm) should help.

[Inevitability]

Every class level is a straight +1 to ECL and CR. NPC classes are +½ to CR.

Incorrect. A nonassociated class level (such as wizard levels on an ogre) is only +½ CR, until the base creature has at least as many class levels as its original HD.

The Villainous Competition does this differently, which may be the cause of the confusion.

[Tiri]

The Villainous Competition does this differently, which may be the cause of the confusion.

That's unlikely, since in Villainous Competition all class levels are considered to add +1 to CR.

[Khedrac]

I reocmmend reading the "Adding Class Levels" section of Urpriest's Monstrous Monster Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?207928-Urpriest-s-Monstrous-Monster-Handbook).

[danielxcutter]

Argh... Okay, wrong question. I know exactly how the formula for adding class levels is - my question is, what class levels should I add to what monster to be a good challenge?

[Flickerdart]

Argh... Okay, wrong question. I know exactly how the formula for adding class levels is - my question is, what class levels should I add to what monster to be a good challenge?
Depends on what you mean by good challenge.

The easiest way to advance a monster is to take one with racial casting, and just give it more of that. Such a monster should work pretty well - they will be stronger than a regular caster, but their monstrous bulk and special abilities are countered by the party's action advantage. Don't bother putting spellcaster levels onto anyone else, because they are too far behind.

Avoid using non-associated levels unless your party is very strong. Adding a whole level for 1/2 CR is way undervalued, even if it's a lame class like monk.

[danielxcutter]

Depends on what you mean by good challenge.

The easiest way to advance a monster is to take one with racial casting, and just give it more of that. Such a monster should work pretty well - they will be stronger than a regular caster, but their monstrous bulk and special abilities are countered by the party's action advantage. Don't bother putting spellcaster levels onto anyone else, because they are too far behind.

What about the Glabrezu with +17 levels in Cleric I mentioned in the OP? A CoDzilla is bad enough, but one on a Glabrezu seems like a nightmare.


Avoid using non-associated levels unless your party is very strong. Adding a whole level for 1/2 CR is way undervalued, even if it's a lame class like monk.

Well, I suppose even Monk is less underrated when it's a pit fiend punching you in the face. :smalltongue:

[Flickerdart]

What about the Glabrezu with +17 levels in Cleric I mentioned in the OP? A CoDzilla is bad enough, but one on a Glabrezu seems like a nightmare.
It's nowhere near as powerful as a 24th level Cleric. The Glabrezu part of the equation contributes nothing next to 9th level spells.

[danielxcutter]

It's nowhere near as powerful as a 24th level Cleric. The Glabrezu part of the equation contributes nothing next to 9th level spells.

Eh. I guess, but is it weak? Btw, how about Bard or Hexblade on a Succubus chassis?

[Flickerdart]

Eh. I guess, but is it weak?
It's weak for an epic-level monster.



Btw, how about Bard or Hexblade on a Succubus chassis?
A succubus chassis has little to offer for a hexblade. Bard is better, but you are 6 levels behind for spells and music, so the only viable route is going into Sublime Chord ASAP using Versatile Spellcaster cheese.

[Inevitability]

It's weak for an epic-level monster.

I disagree here: 17 levels of cleric are still far ahead of the typical epic individual's capabilities. The monster in question is weak for an epic-level monster focused on casting.

[ChaosStar]

I know how to add class levels to monsters, but I'm not sure how to do it so it's powerful compared to it's CR, or at least good enough to be a good challenge. In a webcomic called Our Little Adventure, there's a Glabrezu with 17+ levels in Cleric and is thus CR 24 - that seems powerful. Anything else, or general advice?

Are you talking about Mortaridar? It's mentioned that he's a powerful divine spellcaster, but not what class or how many levels.

[etrpgb]

Argh... Okay, wrong question. I know exactly how the formula for adding class levels is - my question is, what class levels should I add to what monster to be a good challenge?

Factotum 8 makes every monster a bit more scary thanks to Cunning Surge. If you can also add Psychic warrior 2 to use Hustle then the challenge can increase a lot.

Otherwise, we all know spells are super strong, just add Cleric/Beguiller/Sorceror levels. Your players will love to receive Power Word Pain, Shivering Touch or Wraithstrike attacks.

[danielxcutter]

Are you talking about Mortaridar? It's mentioned that he's a powerful divine spellcaster, but not what class or how many levels.

The author more or less said so in the comic forum at the site, and he's canonically capable of casting Miracle. Also, I believe Glabrezu have a decent Wis stat - 16 I think - so he could have gotten 19+ Wis from character levels alone.

[danielxcutter]

I disagree here: 17 levels of cleric are still far ahead of the typical epic individual's capabilities. The monster in question is weak for an epic-level monster focused on casting.

True on the casting part, I guess. I doubt it's weak in terms of physical combat, since the class has some wonderful buffs on it's list.

[Flickerdart]

I disagree here: 17 levels of cleric are still far ahead of the typical epic individual's capabilities. The monster in question is weak for an epic-level monster focused on casting.
a) Why would we bother comparing it to other kinds of monsters if it has 17 levels in a casting class? This is just unnecessary pedantry.
b) If you don't have casting, arguably you don't really belong in Epic play in the first place.