Mapping OOTSland.

[5tephen]

Well, some of you may have stumbled on it here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5840&highlight=absolut), under the topic Absolut Spoiler- a post about Mapping the lands of OOTS.

FlawedParadigm started that one, and several of us got excited about it and got to work. However, as the topic of the post wasn't exactly illuminating regarding its content, FP has asked me to start this one.

Here is my work so far, with big ups to LordofNarf, SPoD, and TinSoldier (amongst others) who helped me remember things and pointed things out.

The Map:
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f213/5tephe/my%20creations/oots_map_v2_t-2.gif (http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f213/5tephe/my%20creations/oots_map_v2-2.gif)

With Comments:
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f213/5tephe/my%20creations/oots_map_comments_t.gif (http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f213/5tephe/my%20creations/oots_map_comments.gif)

Tracking the Journeys:
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f213/5tephe/my%20creations/oots_map_paths_t.gif (http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f213/5tephe/my%20creations/oots_map_paths.gif)

In AUTOREALM!!!:
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f213/5tephe/my%20creations/OOTSland2_t.gif (http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f213/5tephe/my%20creations/OOTSland2.gif)


Issues that have been considered are many and varied, including the signpost Durkon saw in Origins, the comments of the thief who delivered the letter in Origins, the comments of the hotel staff in the 'Nwhere' sketch, and most recently Redcloak's comments about travel.

Lastly, I would like to say that this is not an attempt to railroad Rich, or to finalise anything about the OOTS world. I am fairly sure that he HAS a map, but I am equally sure that he will not show us that map until the saga we are currently reading is finished. (Same issue as writing Character sheets.)

This is entirely an exercise in sheer, pointless, speculative fun.

So, now over to you: What have you noticed that I have gotten wrong? What else do you think we can include? What obscure reference in one of the comics have you noticed that we have missed?

Whadda you think?

(EDIT: Note- Not everyone has read 'Origins' folks, so try to hide any Spoilers from that book. The text colour from a tan box is: #F0E7D3)

[TinSoldier]

I like it. I still might mark the topic spoiler or possible spoiler in case some speculation pops up. I can see something to speculate on now just from the map...

[Omniplex]

Where's Cliffport?

[Jacklu]

Lastly, I would like to say that this is not an attempt to railroad Rich, or to finalise anything about the OOTS world. I am fairly sure that he HAS a map, but I am equally sure that he will not show us that map until the saga we are currently reading is finished. (Same issue as writing Character sheets.)

I think it would be interesting to keep building this map if only to compare it to Rich's when all is said and done.

[5tephen]

Where's Cliffport?

Ah yes: but where IS Cliffport?

The other location that has been mentioned (by SPoD) along with Cliffport is a town called Nextdoor.

Can anyone easily find the comics where those places appeared, or were mentioned? I'd like to scour them for clues....

[n11]

Cliffport (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=110)

[Omniplex]

also, 142 (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=142)

[Vargtass]

I lack some sort of homeland to the OotS. It should probably be somewhere between Redmountain hills and Dwarwen lands, given that Somewhere, etc is south, and that e.g. Roy hadn't heard of those nations. Then again, I have no idea what that land should be called, but there should be room for it.

Perhaps Cliffport is a major town of that land. If Roy's father's master used to live there, and (presumably) that's where Julia gets her education, this would make sense. Also, the name suggests that it is by the sea.

I think this is fun, and would never have found the original thread...

[androgial]

dont forget there is wilderness between azure city and xykons hobgoblin army

[5tephen]

Aha! Thank you, n11 and Omniplex. Still doesn't give us much, but I'll give 'one of the bigest cities in the world' (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=252) a speculative place on the 'Comments' map.

Any changes that I do make, I'll just update the maps I have online, so that the initial post of this thread has the current version. That way people won't have to go hunting.


Posted by: androgial Posted on: Today at 3:08pm
dont forget there is wilderness between azure city and xykons hobgoblin army
Yeah, but as there is no reference to what that wilderness is like, I'm just leaving it blank for the moment. Hopefully we will see some of the Evil army travelling. (I don't think so though.)

[metalphil]

I dig it, I dig it, I dig it. Good stuff.

[Jacklu]

Or as Elan would say:
Map Map Map Map the great big world!

[LordOfNarf]

Aha! Thank you, n11 and Omniplex. Still doesn't give us much, but I'll give 'one of the bigest cities in the world' (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=252) a speculative place on the 'Comments' map.

Any changes that I do make, I'll just update the maps I have online, so that the initial post of this thread has the current version. That way people won't have to go hunting.

Yeah, but as there is no reference to what that wilderness is like, I'm just leaving it blank for the moment. Hopefully we will see some of the Evil army travelling. (I don't think so though.)

yeah, but we haven't even the slightest inkling of where that is, or evn what the dominant race is.

Also, Xykon tends to exercise an exteremly slow "speed of plot" and it will probably take him the next 600 comics to reach the auzure city, enough time for The OoTsers to check every other gate, then rush to break the seige valiantly.

[ladycomet]

Very cool. Maps are fun, but tedious to make, so I give you major credit for making one, especially one based on a world you dodn't create (and thus can't just make **** up for, which of course makes the process easier). I'll keep checking for updates, and on that note, good luck as you continue to work on it. Thanks for taking the time to do this :D

[Vargtass]

I note that Someplace Else is, allegedly, a democracy, and not a kingdom.

[LordOfNarf]

"kingdom" generally means a country. The US is a republic, but mexico would still have to go through it to attack Canada

[LordOfNarf]

Something i just reaized:

We know how far V is from the elven homeland since in comic 220 V presents miko with the bill with its roaming charge of 4374gp.

heres the comic : http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=220

[5tephen]

TOP WORK my Lord!

Wow. Now if only we had a more definite location for the Elven homelands (I'm thinking they could be WAY on the other side of the Wooden Forest Wilderness).

Ah, nuts. I've just realised that I have to include the Mud Farmer's hut/village, and the Ogre's Cave. I guess they go in between Meeting Miko and the Inn.

sigh.

[5tephen]

Hmmm.
is this reference to "Nodwick" (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=229) a gag that I am unaware of, or a reference to a place?

If the latter, then why is it in "inverted commas"?

[Edna]

Hmmm.
is this reference to "Nodwick" (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=229) a gag that I am unaware of, or a reference to a place?

It's another online comic: http://archive.gamespy.com/comics/nodwick/index.htm

Edna

[Vargtass]

"kingdom" generally means a country. The US is a republic, but mexico would still have to go through it to attack Canada

Point taken.

Still, Xykon refers to eight nations, and the barmaid at the inn obviously separate democracies from kingdoms. In OotS, I have not seen "kingdom" used in the general sense that you suggest. It could be done, though.

I suspect that a fantasy setting, much like a historical medieval setting, would be picky (especially on maps) on wether a nation was considered a proper kingdom, principality, democracy, republic, empire, etc, or not.

[Nightstallion]

The map which plots the journeys should also have a line for the Linear Guild; after all, they're now in Cliffport.

[Annalia]

I second Nightstallion idea. A Linear Guild's line (I hope it won't curve ;)) would be cool.

[Priceless_Ming]

Guys, you can't map a sense of humor.

[LordOfNarf]

How do we know that the LG is in cliffport? Just because Julia is there is no indication, and alot of young people go to college as far away from their parents as possible.

[n11]

142 (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=142)

[Jibar]

Besides, we've still had no sign of where Cliffport is in the world. Nothing has been mentioned regarding location, local area, or distance from the Dungeon of Dorukan.

[LordOfNarf]

Besides, we've still had no sign of where Cliffport is in the world. Nothing has been mentioned regarding location, local area, or distance from the Dungeon of Dorukan.

presumably, threre are cliffs and ports, and roy's dad lived there at some point

[n11]

presumably, threre are cliffs and ports, and roy's dad lived there at some point

Just like Greenland has so much green vegetation? :)

[LordOfNarf]

Just like Greenland has so much green vegetation? :)

...................... shut up

[TinSoldier]

This is funny, because another webcomic (http://www.diredestiny.com/) has a Cliffport as well.

[Vargtass]

Just like Greenland has so much green vegetation? :)

Greenland was allegedly named so for PR - vikings tried to make it sound hospitable in order to attract settlers. Iceland, which is much greener, was supposedly named by a disappointed viking fleeing the harsh winter he suffered at the place.

I think Cliffport has cliffs and a port. But obviously we don't know where it is.

[5tephen]

Re: ep 318

WE HAVE CONFIRMATION!

Notably about the two remaining gates. Definately in a desert on the western continent, AND the fact that the tundra is to the north.

(No, I wasn't assuming that it was- hence my note in the comments map about there "always" being a "Frozen North"- because I live in the Southern Hemisphere. For us, the closest frozen wastes are to the south.)

(And they're bigger than yours, too!)

[Gralamin]

just something to make a more realistic looking map: Autorealm (http://www.gryc.ws/autorealm.htm)

[5tephen]

Hmm, Nice!

Thanks :)

[Aereshaa_the_2nd]

You forgot the bandit village in the wooden forest
EDIT:
this is a map of the hobgoblin CITY:
http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=197

[Bogardan_Mage]

Apparently the Oracle is a few days from Azure City (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=318) although given the "speed of plot" thing that's probably not too helpful. More helpful is the fact that the Oracle worships a western deity, and so it probably situated in the western reaches of the eastern continent. I speculate somewhere in the southeast of the "central kingdoms". The central kingdoms might bulge out a bit to the west there, also, explaining the presence of western deities outside of the western lands.

[Wiggle]

By the way, you've spelt hobgoblin as hogoblin on the map. Also to be pedantic, please never spell definitely with an "a". It's definitely spelt definitely!

[5tephen]

Oh, alright.

I'll dig out the photoshop file that I did this up on all that time ago, and get busy. Fix up tohse tpyos.

And this is just to note, n11 and LordoNarf, that we now know that Cliffport has both cliffs, and a port.

Like Greenland.

;)

But then we knew from his Worldmaking articles (when - OH WHEN - shall they return!?!?!? <deep longing />) that Rich liked this kind of naming convention. And yes- Greenland did have Green shores, the summer that the Vikings first visited it and gave it that name, or so the story goes.

Oh, and Gralamin Shieldheart: Thanks HEAPS for AutoRealm. It really is a cool program! I can find a dozen uses for it in my writing projects, off the top of my head. And although it will have to be VASTLY changeable, I might just do one up for OOTSland.

[5tephen]

What the Hell!?

Miko is returning from the Dwarven Lands (she must have teleported there, too) via Xykon's route from the Southern Mountains to Azure city?

This makes no sense. My map must be wrong.

Or...

Alright, I can think of two explanations:

1/ Xykon emerged in the Southern Mountains, he and Redcloak conquered/recruited the Hobgoblins at their fort, and then marched north to the hobgoblin city. From there they are travelling to Azure city.
Hmm, it's still not great.

2/ OOTSland is in the Southern Hemisphere of its planet/world, and the Dwarven Lands are to the South.

Thoughts, anyone? Please, help me work this out....

[Nazzo, the 102nd]

Thoughts, anyone? Please, help me work this out....

Hmmm... Maybe if you pull the Dwarven lands on your map a little to the east and tip the Southern Mountains just a little to the north, we could say that Miko was traveling southwest to get to Azure City, and Xykon's army could travel also southwest. The difference is, while Miko travels somewhere between south and southwest, Xykon travels somewhere between southwest and west. Therefore, they do get to meet before the city, probably in the last stop (which seems to be the case of this watchtower).

Am I right? :smallbiggrin:

[Tamis]

Xykon is circling the city to take out all watchtowers first, he has just gotten to the one that is on Miko's route. Quite simple. :smallsmile:

[5tephen]

Yeah, both possibilities.

I'll keep an open mind (and map) until we get more info.

(nazzo102: the only difficulty with your idea, one I had considered myself, is the reference in #300 to the number of nations that Xykon's army would have to travel through.)

Still, I think the best approach is a bit of both: Tamis poses a good story explanation, (which is EXACTLY the kind that holds sway in the Giant's world) and I reckon we need to skew my map, like this-

->__
I___I
<---
- bringing the north all further over to the East, and the south further to the West. That would probably help with the kingdoms mentioned in #300, too.

(Yay ASCI!)

[5tephen]

Hey hey, folks!

Happy to wake this thread up, if only to open it up for some WILD SPECULATION.

In Strip 501, that looked like:
"Cambodia" (Not too sure about this one, though. Any other ideas?)
"Japan"
"Tibet" (Isn't the real Tibet landlocked?)
"India" (Although Papua New Guinea also has an Elephant headed god.)

Has anyone else picked anything up?

[Sequinox]

EXACTLY!!!! :smallbiggrin: I was just reading this thread when I thought about that: Where the crap are the other southern kingdoms? :smallconfused:

[Libra]

I do like seeing maps drawn up for tales.

It makes journeys easier to follow and it's nice to see everything in it's proper place.:smallsmile:

[Moriato]

Hey hey, folks!

Happy to wake this thread up, if only to open it up for some WILD SPECULATION.

In Strip 501, that looked like:
"Cambodia" (Not too sure about this one, though. Any other ideas?)
"Japan"
"Tibet" (Isn't the real Tibet landlocked?)
"India" (Although Papua New Guinea also has an Elephant headed god.)

Has anyone else picked anything up?

:elan: Bump bump bump, bump the long dead thread!

[One Skunk Todd]

I posted this in the main 501 thread then saw this thread:

I think the "nations" could be:

1. Southeast Asia - Laos, Cambodia, Thailand, Vienam, the "Jungly" areas.
2. China (I believe the Chinese have used swords of all types, both curved and straight) and note the ghost or ancestor, very important in Chinese culture
3. Pan-Himalaya - Nepal, Bhutan, Tibet (no longer exists, thanks China), Burma (or Myanmar if you prefer), high, cold (note visible breath) mountainous areas (I realize mostly landlocked)
4. India

If you reversed 1 and 2 that would be the order you arrive at each when sailing west from Japan.

[Chronos]

From 418 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0418.html), we know that Azure City's ocean is north of the city (we're looking at the rising sun, so we're facing east, and the docks are on the right). I'm picturing a Mediterranean Sea type of situation, with AC being in the equivalent of Morocco. Anyone coming overland from the northern lands would then have to approach the city from the east, which could account for Miko meeting the hobgoblin army.

There's also a pretty good view of the planet in Start of Darkness, which seems consistent with this idea.

We also know that it's three days from Cliffport to Azure City (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0377.html), as the fiend flies. If we could figure out Sabine's species, we'd know her fly speed, and hence the distance between the cities. My guess is that they're across the central sea from each other, fairly close by air or water, but far apart by land.

[factotum]

From 418 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0418.html), we know that Azure City's ocean is north of the city (we're looking at the rising sun, so we're facing east, and the docks are on the right).

Assuming that isn't just an error...heck, they made the same mistake in the film Troy, where the sunrise indicates the city faces eastward across the sea; quite tricky for a city that's supposed to be in the eastern Mediterranean!

[Chronos]

Assuming that isn't just an error...heck, they made the same mistake in the film TroyI hold the Giant up to a somewhat higher standard than Hollywood. Heck, most Hollywood sunrises are actually sunsets filmed in reverse, since the film crews don't want to get up that early (but if you know a bit about astronomy, you can still usually tell the difference).

[Firestar27]

Can you put up an Autorealm version? I use autorealm, and it looks so much better than a bunch of rounded squares and ovals. Though I still like the map now, it could be so much better.
Also, where do you get the idea that the hobgoblin city or fort was in the southern lands?
And if it is in the southern lands, then meeting Miko on her way back from Dwarven lands is fine because Miko first went south, then west. She met Xykon on the west part of her journey.

[David Argall]

From 418 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0418.html), we know that Azure City's ocean is north of the city (we're looking at the rising sun, so we're facing east, and the docks are on the right).
I'd argue the sun is just not correctly placed. The hobs come from the east, and so the port is on the West. The Sun was just placed in the picture to give an idea this is happening in the Morning. A properly placed sun would have been entirely off the screen. So instead it is put where it is nicely visible.


I'm picturing a Mediterranean Sea type of situation, with AC being in the equivalent of Morocco. Anyone coming overland from the northern lands would then have to approach the city from the east, which could account for Miko meeting the hobgoblin army.

There's also a pretty good view of the planet in Start of Darkness, which seems consistent with this idea.
That's the crayon picture? If so, we can pretty much ignore it if there is any reason to.
But if we put AC in "Morocco" and we then have the hobs coming from Egypt, we have problems in getting that morning sun in the harbor. AC would have to be poorly placed at the end of a C pennusula.


We also know that it's three days from Cliffport to Azure City (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0377.html), as the fiend flies. If we could figure out Sabine's species, we'd know her fly speed, and hence the distance between the cities. My guess is that they're across the central sea from each other, fairly close by air or water, but far apart by land.
#365 says "3, maybe 4 days", so that is 84? hours since Sabine does not get tired. Make that 80 hours to be lazy and because the wording implies 3 is more likely than 4. MM1 says a succubus flies at 50 & DMG makes that 5 miles an hour. So we are talking about 400 miles on a straight line.



Also, where do you get the idea that the hobgoblin city or fort was in the southern lands?
strips 147 & 148



And if it is in the southern lands, then meeting Miko on her way back from Dwarven lands is fine because Miko first went south, then west. She met Xykon on the west part of her journey.
We have to take a little care. Miko has to be given enough room to miss the army that is moving the same direction she is and at a much slower rate. So Miko should be going Southwest while the hobgoblins are going Northwest.

[The Extinguisher]

But at different times. The army left much before Miko did.

I think that Miko was going South southwest, while the army was going West southwest.

[NerfTW]

5mph flying speed is ridiculous.

That's barely a brisk walk. You'd be better off walking the entire way instead of flying.

[Firestar27]

5mph flying speed is ridiculous.

That's barely a brisk walk. You'd be better off walking the entire way instead of flying.

Actually a brisk walk is around 4 mph. So 5 mph is actually above a brisk walk, not "barely a brisk walk". However, regardless of speed, flying is usually better because you can go in a straight line. When walking, you have things in your way.

[David Argall]

5mph flying speed is ridiculous.

That's barely a brisk walk. You'd be better off walking the entire way instead of flying.

D&D rules make the standard walk rate 3 mph. So 5mph, while not wonderful, is definitely faster than a walk.

[The Extinguisher]

Physics wise, I'd give her and average of about a a 3 to 4 m/s (a car on a major street is 14 m/s), because of currents and all that.

Not that much faster than walking, but enough to be significant over three days.

[5tephen]

AUTOREALM Map ADDED TO FIRST POST!


Also, where do you get the idea that the hobgoblin city or fort was in the southern lands?

As David said, 147 & 148.
Yeah, in those strips Redcloak specifically mentions that they are in the Southern Mountains, and even if that wasn't there the colour scheme is good enough for me. If you notice, the Giant tends to colour each region differently, and use a pretty standard backdrop.

As to Sabine's flight speed, hmmm...
It is only so useful. Like V's mention of the fact that they're 4,374 miles from the elven homeland, it only provides us with distance, and not direction. Also, isn't there an entire thread (or two) devoted to debate about Sabine's particular 'breed' of demon/devil?

And as to the sunrise... Well, that does look like more solid evidence. Still, it could be for dramatic effect, and hell, the wharfs could be out on a northern point of the bay that AC might to sit on. Throw in a wide angle lens, and you could pass it off.

As to SoD, and the globe pictured - I couldn't get much out of it (although I am sure the Giant has his own map, and is being faithful to it.)

Oh, and the only reason the thread was dead is because the Giant hadn't given us any ammo to be going on with.

[factotum]

I'd argue the sun is just not correctly placed. The hobs come from the east, and so the port is on the West. The Sun was just placed in the picture to give an idea this is happening in the Morning. A properly placed sun would have been entirely off the screen. So instead it is put where it is nicely visible.


Well, it would actually depend how far south Azure City is. From the southern hemisphere the Sun would generally appear to be north of your position (depending on what the axial tilt of OotSWorld is)--you would have to be quite close to the equator for the sun to be due East at sunrise. If Azure City is a long way south of the equator, and it's winter in the southern hemisphere, the sun would actually rise in the north-east.

Of course, we don't know the axial tilt of the world, exactly how far south Azure City is, or indeed what time of year it is in southern lands, so none of this can be absolute!

[The Extinguisher]

Assuming it's relatively the same as Earth, that makes sense, because it was New Years, and it looked very warm out.

[Chronos]

Well, it would actually depend how far south Azure City is. From the southern hemisphere the Sun would generally appear to be north of your position (depending on what the axial tilt of OotSWorld is)--you would have to be quite close to the equator for the sun to be due East at sunrise. If Azure City is a long way south of the equator, and it's winter in the southern hemisphere, the sun would actually rise in the north-east.You're thinking of the noon sun, not sunrise/sunset. No matter where you are in the world, on the equinoxes, the Sun rises due east and sets due west. When it's summer in the Northern Hemisphere, sunrise and sunset are north of east and north of west, respectively, and when it's summer in the Southern Hemisphere, sunrise and sunset are south of east and west. Of course, we don't know precisely what time of year that was, but it's a little after the southern new year, which is a couple of months after the northern new year. If the northern new year is at the same time as ours, then that would put that comic at close to equinox, so the sun would rise close to due east.

[David Argall]

New map looks reasonable, but the South should likely extend quite a bit more to the South.

We have 4 new Southern nations, each with a port. Putting them just on the bottom of the map is possible, but probably wrong. Better would be to extend the coast a long way to the South, and have Big Hat on the hot equator, "China" in more temperate climes even further South, "Tibet" in a coastal mountain range in fairly cool terrain, and then "India" on an island moderately close to shore on the way back. This would create a reasonable 4 month voyage for the fleet.

[littlebros]

i really like the auto realm map and think adding the southen ports will help alot

[Antamar]

I'd say that the Autorealm Map should include a few hills or mountains around AC, reference: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0474.html where Belkar says they (the hobgoblins) are focusing there efforts on the people escaping into the mountains.

[5tephen]

And we have a new clue!

"Imported from GREYSKY CITY"

Doesn't give us much to go on though, does it? Can anyone make any lexical links to other areas or cultures mentioned in OOTS? Greysky sounds Dwarven to me.

EDIT: Updated the front page map - only the first one - to include the 4 new lands, and a speculative location for Greysky City.

Think of the Southern Nations as movable blocks (that's what they are in my Photoshop file) that could either be islands or part of the mainland. We can position them as we find out more. At the moment they are in the order (closest to furthest) from Azure City that they were visited by the Fleet.

Also, I put Greysky City up north (because that fits the name) and on the coast (because it can trade with Azure City, a major Port).

[Vargtass]

From SoD: Greysky City is a city that uses gothic font on a tavern sign, has a small island with a supposedly abandonded castle just of the coast, and is not more than one teleport away from Cliffport. The patrons of the tavern are of mixed races (humans, halfling, drow, elf, dwarf). The tables and chares are sized for medium-sized creatures. It is raining a lot.

[5tephen]

Oh, nice work Vargtass!
(I'll have to go back and re-read my SoD over this holiday break, and pull out anything else I can find. I wasn't in Mapping frame of mind the first two times I read it.)

[JaxGaret]

Not sure if anyone mentioned this yet, but the picture is a bit too small and the font a bit too blurry/unreadable. I would love it if you could fix this, I really like your effort! :smallsmile:

[Yendor]

New information! Cliffport is over a thousand miles north (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0528.html) of Azure City.

This puts Sabine's flying speed (over three days) at roughly 14 miles per hour or 20 feet per second. (The Mechane is apparently slightly slower than this.)

[David Argall]

New information! Cliffport is over a thousand miles north (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0528.html) of Azure City.

This puts Sabine's flying speed (over three days) at roughly 14 miles per hour or 20 feet per second.

That would put her per round speed at 120 or a normal move of 60, vs a known succubus movement of 50. Yes, that would be the main error from earlier. I was assuming only a movement of 50 rather than a double move of 100. So 365 is saying 800, not far from the 1000 here. But keep in mind that Roy is not supposed to be a geography expert, so his one thousand mile estimate need not be treated as precise.

[5tephen]

Excellent work, Yendor! I didn't notice that mention at all!

And... Newer Information!

We now know something about the relative placements of Greysky City and Cliffport, and even the Terrain between Greysky City and Azure City!

Super! I will adjust the Maps accordingly.

[5tephen]

Also, you know what else?

I am looking at my Autorealm map now, and wondering if the whole "Southern Mountains" Hobgoblin base thing is just unrealistically far to the east and south.

After all, we now have confirmation that there are Mountains to the north. I was always a little troubled by the sheer distance that Xykon and Redcloak had to cover in their escape from the Dungeon of Dorukan, through that secret passageway. I still think it is unrealistic, but it would be much less so if I just moved the whole 'Southern Mountain' setup further North and West.

As it is, at the moment I have this elongated mountain range stretching across the entire continent, to meet up with the only mountains that we KNOW a geographical location of: those to the north of Azure City.

I should probably just apply Occam's Razor here, and suggest that they are probably more contained, and part of the same goegraphical structure.

[Vargtass]

I agree...

...wasn't there also some discussion on the number of nations Xykon had to conquer, too? Does that still work out correctly? I guess it does.

[5tephen]

If you have a look at the map with comments, you'll see that the line Xykon would have had to follow to get to Kraagor's Gate would probably have taken them through about 6 kingdoms (or Nations for the picky amongst us).

That's two too few, but given that we are making up our map from in-comic references, then it's a reasonable assumption that we've missed two nations that we have had no chance to hear of yet.

Still, with a little judicious shunting, those nations can still lie in the path between the Hobgoblin mountain homeland, and the Frozen North.

[David Argall]

I may be missing something, but I can find nothing that really fixes the Redmountain hills in the North where we have them. As I understand it, we put them there because that is far from Azure City and would be consistent with Miko's long journey.

However, if we make the hills a N-S ridge instead of E-W, we can place the dungeon in the far North of the hills and thus still allow Miko a long trip, but gain some other advantages.

Origen We are looking at Greysky City as where Haley was in the Thieves Guild. And it seems that Elan was in the same city shortly before Roy started collecting his band. In OtooPC's, Elan and Sir Francois stay at the Rob-U-While-U-Sleep Inn run by two of the thieves guild members. The obvious assumption then would be that Elan leaves Greysky City, possibly to find his missing knight and is in a town not far from Greysky and 18 miles from the Southern end of the Redmountain hills. Haley could easily be at the same location. The party then leaves town and enters the Southern end of the hills and starts going North, eventually reaching the dungeon at the North end. When they exit the hills, they are in the North and wander around until Miko arrives.

[5tephen]

"We just need to head southwest rather than southeast, and cut through the underbrush..."

And with that single sentence... we are screwed.

Well, at least the current map is. I like the logic of Davis Argall's N-S hill alignment for the Redmountain hills, so perhaps we need to start again. I will think about it, and post a list of geographical clues that we know, and then we can start doing mud-scratch sketches.

Unless anyone can think of some explanation for Hayley's line there, that fits with our map....

Hope the Giant is having fun, throwing us like this.:smallconfused:

[factotum]

I see what you mean. The Oracle must be somewhere to the West of Azure City, which puts him in the middle of the ocean on the map!

[David Argall]

I think we had best consider Haley's current comment a remark about local geography rather than continental geography. She had been going SouthEast due to a curve in the road North. She realizes she has just passed the Oracle's location, which was to her West. So she has to go back up the road a bit and take a different turn.

Now SoD says the oracle is in Southern lands, which is not inconsistent with her only having to back track a little ways.
A more serious problem is 318, which puts the Oracle only a few days from Azure City. But the evidence we have is that Haley and Belkar have been traveling for weeks or months. I suppose they could travel back all that distance, but it seems quite unlikely.

We seem to have something of a plothole here.

[Oberon]

A more serious problem is 318, which puts the Oracle only a few days from Azure City. But the evidence we have is that Haley and Belkar have been traveling for weeks or months. I suppose they could travel back all that distance, but it seems quite unlikely.

We seem to have something of a plothole here.

I disagree.. I didn't think Haley and co. had been travelling for more than a week and I see no evidence otherwise. When Haley says she's been eating only rice and the occasional piece of fruit for months, I think she's referring to her time in Azure city, fighting with the resistence. All the Order has done since she left AC was the business with the orcs on the island, which doesn't seem like it took more than a single day. Likewise, what we saw of Redcloak and O'chul seemed to span less than two days.
So where are you getting this "weeks or Months" thing from?

[TigerHunter]

I disagree.. I didn't think Haley and co. had been travelling for more than a week and I see no evidence otherwise. When Haley says she's been eating only rice and the occasional piece of fruit for months, I think she's referring to her time in Azure city, fighting with the resistence. All the Order has done since she left AC was the business with the orcs on the island, which doesn't seem like it took more than a single day. Likewise, what we saw of Redcloak and O'chul seemed to span less than two days.
So where are you getting this "weeks or Months" thing from?
Also, it doesn't feel like it took her more than a day or two to reach the Oracle. Given that by the time Eugene found out about it, she was already there.

[David Argall]

I disagree.. I didn't think Haley and co. had been travelling for more than a week and I see no evidence otherwise. When Haley says she's been eating only rice and the occasional piece of fruit for months, I think she's referring to her time in Azure city, fighting with the resistence. All the Order has done since she left AC was the business with the orcs on the island, which doesn't seem like it took more than a single day. Likewise, what we saw of Redcloak and O'chul seemed to span less than two days.
So where are you getting this "weeks or Months" thing from?

501-Kazumi has a flat belly. Haley leaves Azure City a day or two later.
563-Kazumi is very much showing, and there is no longer any desire to hide the pregnancy, also a sign that enough time has passed to make it not obvious the baby had been present at the marriage. V now releases the birds and after a flight of unknown time, they reach Haley. It would seem they have been on the road for about two-three months.

[An Enemy Spy]

your Autorealms map doesn't have the Western Continent or the Orc Island which I'm guessing is part of an archipelago

[5tephen]

True, my Auto realms map lacks an Orc Island, and a Western Continent.

I'm trying not to obsess over the details until we get some more solid info.

I think David's comment about local geography is the best solution (I had figured we might have to decide that, but thought I would throw the problem out there and see if anyone could come up with something better: it never hurts to re-examine your reasoning).

Although David's logic on the travel time does seem sound. I'm gonna hedge on the side of weeks, because the pregnancy stage of a stick figure seems a slim basis to hang much on.

And now, with the characters entering Greysky while en-route from the Oracle/Azure City to Cliffport, we seem to have confirmation of a sort for the placement of it on our map.

[An Enemy Spy]

Be sure not to forget the town of Lickmyorangeballshalfling!

[David Argall]

573 does give us some information on Greysky City location. It is a week's travel from the Oracle, which is less than a week from Azure City, possibly as little as two days. We can play with these figures a bit, but our base figures likely are 4 days to the Oracle and 7 more to Greysky.

This would suggest Haley left Azure City a week before she remembered the Oracle. This is much too short to be consistent with ship time. The probably best solution is to assume it took some time to organize the unification conference and to get ready to leave.

Myself, I'd put Greysky on the coast since that is where a lot of cities are, particularly ones that would trade with Azure City.

[datalaughing]

A previous reference to the location of Greysky city in this thread (on this page, actually) said that it had an island with a supposedly abandoned castle just off the coast. So I'd say it being on the coast seems like a good bet. Also, not more than 1 teleport from Cliffport.

[David Argall]

SoD p. 78 has Right-eye saying Lair island "...a small island just off the coast, about a three hour ride West of here." Now a city should be right on the coast, but we can find excuses, such as the city is at a rivermouth and the land extends to the West on one shore or the other.
However, the main point is that Greysky should be quite close to the shore.

[An Enemy Spy]

You should also have the nations further down the coast that Hinjo and Co. visited.

[David Argall]

Origin OK, it is just about locked in that Haley came from Greysky City, and that city is far to the South of Cliffport. So my idea that the Redmountain Hills run North-South is looking better.
Roy and Durkon see the Oracle in the South, and head North to some minor town near Greysky City, where Haley has been adventuring [while staying well out of the city itself] and where Elan has wandered to. The party then enters the Southern end of the hills and works its way North to the dungeon. Once successful there, they exit the hills to the North for any random reason, besides the plot reason of needing then as far North as possible.
We now have a long distance for Miko to travel into a cooler clime and a slightly shorter distance for Xykon to travel. It seems to fit all I know, but I have yet to see the book version of vol 1.

[Chavik]

501-Kazumi has a flat belly. Haley leaves Azure City a day or two later.
563-Kazumi is very much showing, and there is no longer any desire to hide the pregnancy, also a sign that enough time has passed to make it not obvious the baby had been present at the marriage. V now releases the birds and after a flight of unknown time, they reach Haley. It would seem they have been on the road for about two-three months.

It is mentioned in strip 501 that Kazumi is already 8 weeks pregnant, meaning strip 563 couldtake place within 1 months time.

that would make Haleys travelling time closer to 2 weeks - 1 month

[Military Man]

In strip 413 General Chang is reviewing the defenses.*

Notice how the fortifications stretch between two mountains, logically there must be more mountains nearby so, I think that when Haley refers to "looking out on the plains"** that the plains are a valley between two mountain ranges also, look at strip 422*** notice the mountains in the background.

Anyway thats what I found hope it helps.




* http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0413.html
** http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0474.html
*** http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0422.html

[David Argall]

It is mentioned in strip 501 that Kazumi is already 8 weeks pregnant, meaning strip 563 couldtake place within 1 months time.

that would make Haleys travelling time closer to 2 weeks - 1 month

Please check various net sources showing women at 8 weeks and other stages. Kazumi clocks in at about 5 months. There is of course a great deal of variation among women [some have gone into labor without anyone realizing they were even pregnant], but this growth is entirely too sudden to fit within a month.
Now as I suggested, a local custom of the pregnant woman stuffing a pillow into her pants as a way of advertising her condition as soon as she gets the news would explain the bulge and eliminate much of the plothole, [We might also assume as a help that everyone makes a serious distinction between knocking an unmarried lass up and jumping the gun. That would allow us to claim Kazumi was wearing a girdle in 501 to avoid showing and has since discarded it since nobody really cares since she is now married. This doesn't really work, but it can paper it over a bit.] but by the facts given us, there is a major problem in timing here.

[NENAD]

Potentially she isn't supposed to be showing that much, but this is the way it came out due to the limits of the medium.

[David Argall]

We get some depressing news in 579. Haley says Cliffport is only a few days hard ride from Greysky. That's about 350 miles as a rough maximum. The total Azure City-Cliffport distance is about 1000 miles, and Greysky is closer to AC than to Cliffport. The proper distance is 6-700 between Cliffport and Greysky.

What this suggests is that our writer is not paying much attention to any map, and that we are going to have some serious problems in creating one.

[5tephen]

Hmmm. Dave, I think you're putting a little too much weight in your perception of the advancement of the pregnancy of a stick figure. WE haven't seen a pregnancy before in the Giant's artistic style, and as we know that the form is given to certain exaggerations and amusing parodies, it could well be that what we are seeing on Kazumi at the moment is less than half-term. She could end up ROUND by the end of her pregnancy for all we know.

We DO know that the Giant updates his own time-line (see the time-line thread), so at the very least we know he is aware of exactly how far along Kazumi is, and how long it takes people to travel from place to place.

What we DON'T know is how the conditions "on the ground" affect the rates of travel.

If there are only rough roads between Cliffport and Greysky, then "a few day's hard ride" might be a relatively short distance. Likewise, if roads are well maintained in the Azure Empire, then you could go that same distance in less time on foot. Whack a mountain range in the way on either side and it throws everything out.

[Enlong]

There's a map of Azure City and the surrounding areas in WaXPs, so I thought I might make a few notes:

Azure City is actually a bit further north of where it's placed on your map, it's at the top of the peninsula that it's on. The southernmost point of that peninsula is home to the port town of Robinsegg. There's actually a LOT more mountains around Azure City; they cover the northern half of the peninsula and cover everything from there to the Hobgoblin's valley (which is closer to AC then your map shows). Also; the dip further south from the peninsula actually occurs further west then you have it shown.
Finally, the ocean shown is called the Wet Sea.

[David Argall]

Hmmm. Dave, I think you're putting a little too much weight in your perception of the advancement of the pregnancy of a stick figure. WE haven't seen a pregnancy before in the Giant's artistic style, and as we know that the form is given to certain exaggerations and amusing parodies, it could well be that what we are seeing on Kazumi at the moment is less than half-term. She could end up ROUND by the end of her pregnancy for all we know.
She could, but every element of the pregnancy speaks of it being quite advanced. She speaks of having hemroids for six months. That's consistent with a woman within days of giving birth. The baby has been kicking for some time, again something that argues she is on the home stretch. If he had wanted to indicate early pregnancy, we can see our writer has no reluctance to use barf jokes, and there are a good number of morning sickness gags around.
So on the evidence before us, she's at least 6 months and 9 is not out of the question.



We DO know that the Giant updates his own time-line (see the time-line thread), so at the very least we know he is aware of exactly how far along Kazumi is, and how long it takes people to travel from place to place.

He just doesn't seem to pay all that much attention to it. Miko for example seems to spend a great deal more time hunting down and bringing in the party than she does for a much longer trip to the dwarf lands. We can work around that, but the easier explanation is that our writer is rather casual about such details. They move at the speed of plot, and if that wipes a few hundred miles off the map, so be it.

What we DON'T know is how the conditions "on the ground" affect the rates of travel.
What we do know is that the ground conditions don't really matter here.

The girls estimate that the trip to Cliffport will take way more than 4 weeks, if they could get horses, which they don't. From Greysky to Cliffport is only a few days hard ride [which seems suspect] and they spent a week going from Oracle to Greysky. We know the distance from Azure city to Oracle is less than a week, maybe less than a day. We have to give these figures some serious twisting to make them come out right.

[Boogastreehouse]

Oh, man! I just noticed this thread!

I've been playing around with a map of the OotS world for a while now.

Guess it's true that if one person has an idea, a hundred more people have just had the same idea.

[Chronos]

and they spent a week going from Oracle to Greysky. We know the distance from Azure city to Oracle is less than a week, maybe less than a day. We have to give these figures some serious twisting to make them come out right.Evidence for either of these?

[David Argall]

The party leaves the Oracle and the sky has an evening tinge to it.
533- They are then shown at night discussing the Oracle as if it were the same day.
537- That same night Nale make contact and tells Roy to be in Cliffport Tuesday, a date that has to be within a week, and might be the next day.
538- Roy says they can reach Azure City and get a teleport, which means the Oracle is within a week of Azure City and within a day is not ruled out.

573-Haley talks about this past week, which seems to be the amount of time Belkar has been sick, and the amount of time since they left the Oracle.
[This is between two ship chapters that don't seem far apart in time, so it's not easy to stretch this much.]

So we have 1 week to the Oracle + 1 week to Greysky out of a 4+ week journey. So Cliffport can't be just a few days hard ride.

[3Power]

I was going to type out some suggestions, but realized it would be easier to just show you, so here:

http://img116.imageshack.us/img116/8673/ootsmapfz7.jpg (http://img116.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ootsmapfz7.jpg)

[David Argall]

WXP consult the map at the back

Elven lands are 4374 miles from the dirt farm. They are likely in a Western direction.

The Redmountain Hills are likely NS, starting near Greysky City, presumably on the Western side of the central kingdoms.

Not definitely, but Greysky City is likely on the coast.

[Linkavitch]

Thank you. Those maps were cool.

[FlawedParadigm]

Not to overly necro a thread or anything, but hey, it's my thread anyhow (Have I really been posting this long? Yipes.) and I'm wondering...given the global view we see in #639, does that give us any information that we can use for this particular task?

[David Argall]

Well, we now have a sorta official map of the world, and we do have the location of the elven lands. That does give at least a limited ability to locate most everything else.

It looks like Azure City is not far from where one lightning bolt lands. And That would likely make the original dungeon about where the other lightning bolt hits. An inch seems about 1500 miles.

[Boogastreehouse]

Well, we've got that map, and for quite some time now we've had this one:

The early rendition of the stick-world. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0273.html)

This new one (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0639.html) appears to be an actual-view-from-space, however, rather than a fanciful depiction. I note that they're quite similar; in all this time Rich apparently hasn't felt the need to modify his original layout.

[Wiggle]

As an Australian originally, I'm always vaguely bemused that it's a fantasy staple of the world having a Nordocentric view. Cold things always come from the North (not cold southerly busters that I grew up with).

I also blame fantasy writers indirect homage to Tolkien and his mapping. Continents are always northern with the most interesting things on the western coasts (think Forgotten Realms, LOTR etc); elven lands are distant things in the west (FR and LOTR again).

There's gotta be a trope on this. Just my 2 cps.

[hamishspence]

Left Justified Fantasy Map?

CS Lewis went with east, rather than west, as important direction.

[Yendor]

Notice how the western continent kind of matches the big bight in the main continent. Nice touch.

[FlawedParadigm]

Well, for the record, although most of the plot we follow in George R. R. Martin's Song of Ice and Fire series happens to the west, almost all the reports of magic and/or fantastical creatures occour in the east, so both sides are at least interesting, although we've followed the west for the most part thus far. I'm personally hoping we get more insight on the exotic-sounding cultures such as Yi Ti and Asshai, but hey.

[The Minx]

Well, we now have a sorta official map of the world, and we do have the location of the elven lands. That does give at least a limited ability to locate most everything else.

It looks vaguely like the one in Start of Darkness, though not identical. This one is probably better, since it is real-time and therefore current.


It looks like Azure City is not far from where one lightning bolt lands. And That would likely make the original dungeon about where the other lightning bolt hits. An inch seems about 1500 miles.

Agreed, though it might be better to use a pixel count (not everyone has the same resolution).


As an Australian originally, I'm always vaguely bemused that it's a fantasy staple of the world having a Nordocentric view. Cold things always come from the North (not cold southerly busters that I grew up with).

I also blame fantasy writers indirect homage to Tolkien and his mapping. Continents are always northern with the most interesting things on the western coasts (think Forgotten Realms, LOTR etc); elven lands are distant things in the west (FR and LOTR again).

There's gotta be a trope on this. Just my 2 cps.

I think that the north-centric thing has more to do with the fact that most fantasy writers come from Europe or America, rather than it being a Tolkien legacy. He was thinking of medieval Europe, and there the coasts were more densely populated and legendary lands lay across the ocean. :smallwink:

PS: incidentally, Dragonlance has "closest cold belt" to the bottom of the map, and labels it "south".

[Nimrod's Son]

Not definitely, but Greysky City is likely on the coast.
On page 78 of Start of Darkness, Lair Island is described as being "just off the coast, about a three hour ride west of [Greysky City]". So it's fairly near the coast, but by no means on it.

[Bogardan_Mage]

As an Australian originally, I'm always vaguely bemused that it's a fantasy staple of the world having a Nordocentric view. Cold things always come from the North (not cold southerly busters that I grew up with).

I also blame fantasy writers indirect homage to Tolkien and his mapping. Continents are always northern with the most interesting things on the western coasts (think Forgotten Realms, LOTR etc); elven lands are distant things in the west (FR and LOTR again).

There's gotta be a trope on this. Just my 2 cps.
Where did Tolkien get his ideas from? Norse Mythology. Where did that originate? Northern Europe. Plus the medieval theme of traditional fantasy brings to mind, again, Europe.

I don't buy the theory that fantasy writers base their maps on their own immediate surroundings. Really, the use of fantastic maps depicting the events of the story and (almost always) irrelevant adjacent areas is itself an homage to Tolkien, it makes more sense to look at the history.

Also, the closest the real world has to an "Icy South", if you will, is Patagonia. Icy Norths are probably more popular because the one in the real world isn't completely inhospitable and separated by ocean.

[5tephen]

Wow, it's been a while since I posted (had MANY other things going on in my life).

Two things of note from me: Yes, obviously the 'Familicide' map, and...
I recently revcieved my copy of War and XPs. (There's a Map in the back, for those of you who don't know, of the area surrounding Azure City.

From both those sources, we can say that we have thus far been pretty close!

The placement of AC on a peninsula at the Southern point of a bight in the Western side of the continent, makes sense of the Sun Rising over the city/Sea issue.

The Western Continent has a definite Shape.
The Western Continent would appear to be the Elven Homeland, as well.

There are EVEN a string of islands in sailing reach of what looks like a good candidate for the site of Azure City. (Could THEY be at least some of the Nations the Fleet visited, asking for help?)

EDIT:
Oh, and Boogastreehouse: the First globe image you mention is of the world that the Snarl destroyed. The globe image we have of the current world, comic 275 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0275.html), is less useful.

[shadzar]

:smallfurious: I was just thinking about breaking out FRIA and mapping the world on it, but seems I am far behind since someone else is already doing it.

:smalltongue:

Looks like everything looks in place by my recollection, just wondering where Anywhere, Nowhere, and Somewhere are or if the map compression has them blurred?

[Kroy]

Where did Tolkien get his ideas from? Norse Mythology. Where did that originate? Northern Europe. Plus the medieval theme of traditional fantasy brings to mind, again, Europe.

I don't buy the theory that fantasy writers base their maps on their own immediate surroundings. Really, the use of fantastic maps depicting the events of the story and (almost always) irrelevant adjacent areas is itself an homage to Tolkien, it makes more sense to look at the history.

Also, the closest the real world has to an "Icy South", if you will, is Patagonia. Icy Norths are probably more popular because the one in the real world isn't completely inhospitable and separated by ocean.

I almost always do it myself. I live on the western coast of a major continent in the "western side" of the Northern hemisphere. Guess where my games take place?

[petersohn]

Er... East and West are relative (http://xkcd.com/503/)... :smallbiggrin:

[Altaria87]

I'm sorry if it's already been said, but I'm in a rush:
In the comic where V uses Familicide (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0639.html) it shows the OoTS globe and the rays originates from the Western Continent, so the Elven Homelands are there.
Edit: By looking at this page, I was Ninja'd, but I think I went into slightly more detail, also I forgot to say it also pretty much confirms the western desert is in the south of the continent

[Ishmayl]

Anyone have a pic of the map from the back of WaXP's?

[hamishspence]

Er... East and West are relative (http://xkcd.com/503/)... :smallbiggrin:

Yes and no. in the case of Earth, the sun always appears to "rise" east of you, and "set" west of you, no matter what hemisphere you are in.

[hamishspence]

though it is true that the phrases used are arbitrary. If you're living in the Pacific, you'd probably call the Americas "the east" and Asia "the west"

[5tephen]

Now we've got a Map of the Western Continent (and it's an ACTUAL MAP! Tee Hee!) which includes the Elven lands.

I've been working together some more accurate sketches, and may even get around to posting them soon....

[Tass]

Edit: Never mind

[Trobby]

Does this map take into account the events of SoD or OtOotPCs? It doesn't appear to, though I guess tracking "the gang" would be difficult when they aren't even together yet.

[David Argall]

The prequel books are pretty much geography free. There are a few hints here and there, but they are largely in a variety of nameless locations, and where named, their relationship to anything else is not. We manage to mine a few clues out of them, but pretty much they are worthless for our mapmaking.

Now we might note that our current map, and our outer space view in 639 have considerable differences. I doubt this means anything more than that the artist didn't consult 639 at all closely when he drew the new map, but there are conflicts.

[hamishspence]

What are the "considerable differences"?

Aside from the three islands off the coast being a bit further away in the space pic, the map of the western continent is very similar to the space pic of it- forest, desert, a brown bit which appears to be mountains on the map, and the outline, all are roughly the same.

[Tass]

The space pic has the dessert reaching the sea on the east side, while the map has it reaching the sea on the west side, and mountains almost all the way along the east side.

[Lissou]

though it is true that the phrases used are arbitrary. If you're living in the Pacific, you'd probably call the Americas "the east" and Asia "the west"

Yeah, the names "the East" and "the West" just come from maps that had Europe in the middle (North America is part of "the West" as far as I know). Which they did because they were European maps.

[hamishspence]

The space pic has the dessert reaching the sea on the east side, while the map has it reaching the sea on the west side, and mountains almost all the way along the east side.

Actually, that doesn't look like mountains running north-south along the east side as well as the east-west central belt- it looks like a river.

The mountain range and the desert are slightly different shapes between the two, but only slightly.

One thing I noticed- on both, the middle island of the three is a different colour from the other two- almost the same colour as the sea.

[King of Nowhere]

I looked at it, the shape seems identical, but the desert reach the sea in the wrong part. This may be a minor mistake from Rich's part. It must be hard writing a complex story with a whole forum full of people ready to nitpick.
Or maybe the colors on the map didn't show the ground, but the countries (I know it's not very convincing)

[hamishspence]

yes- its the lack of desert along the west coast that stands out more than the desert being fractionally out of place on the east coast.

That said, the fact that the desert is visible on both versions, is roughtly the right size, and you can see desert, forest, and mountains, in roughly the right places, means I don't worry too much about minor differences.

Call it "Prototype" and "Finished version"- you can tell they are meant to be the same thing- little variances don't matter that much.

[5tephen]

Or even better: call it Cartography and Geology.

Maps often have clearly delineated areas that are anything but when you are on the ground - or viewing them from a satellite. It helps our human understanding of the politics, available resources, and ground conditions.

But quite often those differences meld deceptively or vanish entirely when you get further away. The Australian bushland along the east coast may look one uniform colour in Google Maps, but that makes a lie of the vast variation of ground cover and conditions that have evolved for each different terrain. Just because most of the plants have developed the same silvery-grey colouration to the leaves to help them cope with unusually dry conditions, doesn't mean that there aren't areas where that same colour pops up at the top of a 30 yard tall tree, instead of waist high Mallee scrub.

That map, tiny though it is, does show a pretty arid area at the bottom of the east coast, albeit more well crossed by streams than the obvious desert area.

And the haze of the atmosphere is clearly turning even the yellow sands of the desert a dull khaki colour when viewed from space.

I think it's all pretty consistent.

[Bogardan_Mage]

I almost always do it myself. I live on the western coast of a major continent in the "western side" of the Northern hemisphere. Guess where my games take place?
And I live on the east coast of a southern continent and guess what my fictional maps generally feature? Northern hemisphere, ocean to the west. Take that, confirmation bias!

We do not percieve our surroundings from the upper stratosphere. When making a fictional map we don't reference our immediate surroundings, we reference maps! Unless you're basing your campaign on the local weather report, your location isn't going to have a significant impact on the maps that are avaliable.

[Boogastreehouse]

Looks like we now have a very nice map of the Western Continent right here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0698.html).

[Conuly]

Can't read most of the names, but I suppose it doesn't matter with the political situation being what it is.

[Trixie]

So, anyone can make a list?

[Mooglefrooglian]

To help with reading those tiny names, I enlarged and sharpened. Can't say it helped much, but I can read East and West Desperatio (Despoteca?) or something more clearly. The Dark Republic. The C (or g)-something.

http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/5345/61144578.png

(If I'm not allowed to post that, someone just remove it please.)

[Vio]

Hi

I just did the same thing (softening also helps), hoping to find more info here. But it's really hard.

I think it's East and West "Despotonia". The one at the top obviously reads "Dictatoria", while the one at the bottom is called "People's Democratic Dictatorship". :smallwink:

[5tephen]

Yeah, Mooglefrooglian - You'd better yank that image before the Mods do: the Giant is very strict on that kind of thing. NO re-use of his copyrighted imagery, anywhere thanks.

Which is why you haven't seen the requested re-posting of the map from the back of the War & PCs on this thread.

Interestingly, I got "Don't Split the Party" for Christmas, and there is a chapter title page in there that gives us a nice large map of the Southern Continent that includes both a series of islands, AND a dotted line of the journey of what we can only assume is the Azure City fleet!

Giant, you are positively TEASING us here.

But, having NOW had enough glimpses of how the world is constructed, and reading Rich's articles on World Building, specifically Geography, I think I can figure out what's going on here.

The Giant has created a very 2-dimensional (surprise surprise) themed world here. We all know about the 4 different God Families that founded the first world, and how they separated the world into continents for each of their peoples. So what we get in this version (world 2.0) is something like this:

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f213/5tephe/my%20creations/OOTS_rough_map.jpg

The central 'continent' is actually 2 continents connected by a narrow isthmus. There is a Western Continent (duh) and no Eastern one because those Gods were destroyed by the Snarl.

For those of you who are interested, Azure City sits on the top left of the Southern Continent, with the large 'bay' of the ocean separating it from the Northern continent.

At least, that's what I think.

I can post these images, because fairly obviously, I drew them myself. I will try to gather all my resources thus far, and draw a pencil sketch of what we have to date, and post it here sometime soon.

[David Demola]

I can post these images, because fairly obviously, I drew them myself. I will try to gather all my resources thus far, and draw a pencil sketch of what we have to date, and post it here sometime soon.

As you do, look at the very bottom of the blown-up panel from Moogle. There's a little splotch of land that gets cut off. What could that be, I wonder?

[hamishspence]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0680.html

Going back to the original mapping description, there were: Dictatoria, Cruelvania, and East and West Despotonia- among the nations.

[Nimrod's Son]

From another thread:

Okay, so to review, we have:


Scalya
Dictatoria ?????? Cruelvania
?? ?? Fangland
Evilopia

Empire of Blood
Reptilia

Empire of Sweat Free City of Doom
Empire of Tears

West Despotania East Despotania
The Coastly Coast The Dark Republic
People's Democratic Dictatorship

[ZerglingOne]

And here it is, the promised huge fanart map of the western continent.
http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x20/ZerglingOne/OotsWesterncont.png
As you can see, the ones that were too blurry, I didn't even attempt. I also left off the rivers because at this point they are of very little use to us. We may someday find out about the blurry places, maybe not. They'll definitely be in the book though.

Edit: Edited in the names of the places in the post above me, plus I do believe the place south of Cruelvania is literally named "??".

[veti]

And here it is, the promised huge fanart map of the western continent.

If there's empires of Blood, Sweat and Tears, there should be at the very least a City of Toil (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood,_toil,_tears,_and_sweat) in there somewhere.

[ZerglingOne]

If there's empires of Blood, Sweat and Tears, there should be at the very least a City of Toil (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood,_toil,_tears,_and_sweat) in there somewhere.

I agree, sadly, I don't believe there's anything in there that could qualify as Toil except possibly the one I labeled as ID or the one named ??.

Edit: I will do the map from W&XP's if anyone wants me to, it'll take a while, but I can probably have it done by tonight or tomorrow.

[Maximum Zersk]

As you do, look at the very bottom of the blown-up panel from Moogle. There's a little splotch of land that gets cut off. What could that be, I wonder?

680 just shows that as some islands.

[Yendor]

The big island to the south is probably the one the Azurites are now on.

[factotum]

The big island to the south is probably the one the Azurites are now on.

It looks a bit too large on the map to be that. The entire Azurite island looked less than a day's march across, whereas we know the distance between Girard's trap and the nearest edge of the desert is a four day journey.

[Asta Kask]

Edit: Edited in the names of the places in the post above me, plus I do believe the place south of Cruelvania is literally named "??".

I think it looks more like Zo?

[Teddy]

There should be a border between the small scrap of not-so-deserty land Sandsedge is located on and The Empire of Sweat on the map. Nice done anyway.


I think it looks more like Zo?

I'm allways reading it as D&D. It's kind of blocked my mind on that one. The one labeled ?? looks like two more or less random symbols to me (a stickier stickman and a T with two ribs?). The one labeled unknown seems to begin with an "F", but it could be an "M", and end with "land".

[Onyavar]

And here it is, the promised huge fanart map of the western continent.

Nice fanart map... though you should rotate it so that it shows north. As you see in 680, the Goaway Mountains are east-west direction.

I'm not sure, is it possible to draw a map of the whole known world? The main continent has been "explored" by some guys already, we even have the orbital view of 639.

[5tephen]

Gee, thanks Onyavar. We'll get right on that.

So, I got around to tracing the maps that we have seen, and having a play around with them. Some of them come fro the Books, so I'm going to have to spoiler-hide the image:

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f213/5tephe/my%20creations/OOTS-Maptracescolour.png

So, the top on in that image is the "satellite" view of the world from Strip 639 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0639.html).

The one below it is a Chapter title image from the latest book: Don't Split the Party (a thumping good read, by the way - it really sets the rhythm of the comic much better in paper form than it did on the web, over the duration of Roy's dead days). That chapter covers the Azurite's wanderings through the seas, and Hayley, Belkar and Celia's trip to the Oracle and then Greysky city.

The bottom image is the Azure City and surrounds map from the back of the War & XPs book, in the Azure City Tourist Guide extra feature.

So, let's try laying them over each other:

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f213/5tephe/my%20creations/OOTSmapsoverlaysmall.png

Now the fun begins.

There is a clear and pretty consistent set of lines here, which give us a place for Azure City, and Greysky. Even over on the far left of the middle, voyages map there is what is in all likelihood the edge of the Western Continent. There are even some hints within the comic as to what all the islands they visited are: On the Azure City surrounds map, there is an arrow at the very bottom pointing to the "Ghost Lands". I'm reckoning that the 2nd panel, on the lower comic in Strip 501 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0501.html) is a probable match there. We should probably muse more on it, and the other nations visited, adn the order in which they appear in the strip.

Following through with the reasoning thus far, I reckon my last posted theory of 3 distinct continents (North and South separated by a small isthmus, like Nth. and Sth. America) for the three remaining groups of gods seems like a pretty good bet.

We already have a very good map of the Western Continent (thanks, Giant!), and a well fleshed out top region of the Southern Continent so I think we can now start to overlay some of the early findings from the start of this thread (Nowhere, Elsewhere, Somewhere etc...) onto the supplied shape of the Northern Continent.

I'll make that my next assignment.

[AlexanderRM]

Can't read most of the names, but I suppose it doesn't matter with the political situation being what it is.

Yeah, I don't think marking out the countries is very important, bedsides marking the areas where there ARE chaotic countries vs. the desert and the Elven Lands.

Just label the whole place with the funny countries as something literally like "Chaotic nations" or whatever.

[martianmister]

The one labeled unknown seems to begin with an "F", but it could be an "M", and end with "land".

Could it be "Freeland"? :smallconfused:

[Ron Miel]

Looks like 'Fearland' to me.


I think that 'Free City of Doom' labels a dot on the map, rather than an area.