Power Attack and Melee Damage from Non-Attacks (e.g. special Bull Rush damage)

[Gruftzwerg]

On your action, before making attack rolls for a round, you may choose to subtract a number from all melee attack rolls and add the same number to all melee damage rolls. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The penalty on attacks and bonus on damage apply until your next turn.

Let's assume a character who has melee damage coming from non-attacks (no "attack roll"), like a Dungeon Crasher who does damage when he Bull-Rushes (no attack roll). Imho he should get the PA bonus damage.

Is my interpretation right?

- Bull-Rush is not an "attack"
- PA only requires you to take a penalty on attacks, not to attack to gain the bonus on all "melee damage rolls"
- Dungeon Crasher Bull Rush damage counts as "melee damage roll"

anything I am missing (errata?) or did I draw the wrong conclusions anywhere?

EDIT/Update: And while we are at it.. how about charge multipliers? If the Bull Rush was part of a Charge, would it profit from e.g. Spirited Charge and Valorous Weapon Enchantment? I guess the same answer as for PA..?^^

Update2: The answer to the first two questions seems to be a "NO".
Now let's start the bonus question: What if the extra Bull-Rush damage "is weapon related"? (see #7 for more details)

[Necroticplague]

Let's assume a character who has melee damage coming from non-attacks (no "attack roll"), like a Dungeon Crasher who does damage when he Bull-Rushes (no attack roll). Imho he should get the PA bonus damage.

Is my interpretation right?

- Bull-Rush is not an "attack"
- PA only requires you to take a penalty on attacks, not to attack to gain the bonus on all "melee damage rolls"
- Dungeon Crasher Bull Rush damage counts as "melee damage roll"

anything I am missing (errata?) or did I draw the wrong conclusions anywhere?

Got anything to support the bolded? Other than that, your argument is pretty rock solid. However, that is a massive "if". Since a bull-rush isn't a melee attack (since it's not an attack), it's highly questionable that the resultant damage could be considered a "melee damage roll".

[Gruftzwerg]

Got anything to support the bolded? Other than that, your argument is pretty rock solid. However, that is a massive "if". Since a bull-rush isn't a melee attack (since it's not an attack), it's highly questionable that the resultant damage could be considered a "melee damage roll".

my question would be:
Is there anything that defines that "melee damage rolls" or "damage rolls" are tied to melee attacks and require an attack roll? Cause if not, by common sense & interpretation of the english language, I would count the Bull Rush damage as "melee damage". And since PA boosts "all damage rolls" I would say it should work..^^


edit: added the separate possibility "damage rolls".

[JNAProductions]

Ask your DM.

Are you the DM? Then make a decision yourself.

[Gruftzwerg]

Ask your DM.

Are you the DM? Then make a decision yourself.

No and No..^^
I am just working on some builds I wanna showcase here soon and stepped upon this problem while I was setting my damage calculations up..

I would be glad if I could get some reliable answer on this issue to avoid problems before I post those builds.

Update: And while we are at it.. how about charge multipliers? If the Bull Rush was part of a Charge, would it profit from e.g. Spirited Charge and Valorous Weapon Enchantment? I guess the same answer as for PA..?^^

[Necroticplague]

Update: And while we are at it.. how about charge multipliers? If the Bull Rush was part of a Charge, would it profit from e.g. Spirited Charge and Valorous Weapon Enchantment? I guess the same answer as for PA..?^^

Actually, it's slightly different wording that means both of those definitely don't work

When mounted and using the charge action, you deal double damage with a melee weapon (or triple damage with a lance).

when used in a charge, the valorous weapon deals double damage
You aren't using a melee weapon when you bull-rush someone, because a bull-rush occurs independent of the weapon. You don't use your sword to bull-rush someone, you bull-rush them.

EDIT: Actually, with some further digging, the same logic actually makes it very clear PA doesn't work with bull-rushes, as well. A trip through the glossary under 'damage'

Modifiers to melee damage rolls apply to both subcategories of weapon damage (melee and unarmed).
So, modifiers to melee damage rolls (of which PA is), only apply to weapon damage. Since bull-rushing doesn't use a weapon, it's damage isn't weapon damage, so PA doesn't apply.

[Gruftzwerg]

Wow, thx. That was a much clearer answer than I expected.

k, lets start the bonus (question) round^^:

What if the extra Bull-Rush damage "is weapon related"?

e.g. Warforged Juggernauts "Superior Bull-Rush"-ability:

Starting at 3rd level, when a warforged juggernaut makes a successful bull rush against an opponent, it can choose to deal damage equal to that of its armor spikes plus its Strength modifier against the opponent in addition to the normal results of a bull rush.

edit: on a second thought, wouldn't the body/torso (from the dungeon crasher) count as part of your "unarmed"-weapon (Bodycheck)?

[Necroticplague]

Wow, thx. That was a much clearer answer than I expected.

k, lets start the bonus (question) round^^:

What if the extra Bull-Rush damage "is weapon related"?

e.g. Warforged Juggernauts "Superior Bull-Rush"-ability:
In that case, still doesn't work. It deals damage equal to that of it's armor spikes, but it isn't actually using it's armor spikes. That's why the ability specifies that it gets STR added to damage (whereas, if actually was a damage roll using a melee weapon, it wouldn't need to say that, because STR inherently increases that).

edit: on a second thought, wouldn't the body/torso (from the dungeon crasher) count as part of your "unarmed"-weapon (Bodycheck)?

No, it wouldn't, because the rules for Bull Rush never mention being unarmed, using your unarmed strike, or any derivitave thereof. Contrast this to, say, Trip or Grapple, which explicitly state to make unarmed attacks.

[Gruftzwerg]

In that case, still doesn't work. It deals damage equal to that of it's armor spikes, but it isn't actually using it's armor spikes. That's why the ability specifies that it gets STR added to damage (whereas, if actually was a damage roll using a melee weapon, it wouldn't need to say that, because STR inherently increases that).


No, it wouldn't, because the rules for Bull Rush never mention being unarmed, using your unarmed strike, or any derivitave thereof. Contrast this to, say, Trip or Grapple, which explicitly state to make unarmed attacks.

thx again. Now I can clearly see that it was just my whish-thinking... It's hard to compensate when you are trying to accomplish something.
Well, I had to try and ask it to get sure ^^