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View Full Version : Saving Throws...A Thought



ArmorArmadillo
2007-07-24, 04:33 PM
What if Saving Throws didn't increase?

What if you just had a flat bonus, recieved at first level and influenced by stats, and it didn't increase?

I suggest this, because it seems like the current system doesn't work-
Save DCs compare ok to Save bonuses early on, but in the mid levels saving throws are usually either far higher than the DCs or far lower, and in the high levels it's really only a matter of hitting a Nat 1.

So what if Save DCs on all things, from kobolds to celestial half-dragon dire wolverines, were kept in the same range-sometimes spiking to indicate difficult to resist things- and saves were just given a static bonus based on your abilities, and possible bonuses from feats and classes (Class levels alone wouldn't give bonuses, and multiclassing wouldn't net you extra +2s)

Obviously the determination of spell DCs would need to be reworked slightly, as would the feats and abilities which give bonuses, but how do people feel about the potential of this idea?

Jasdoif
2007-07-24, 04:49 PM
It's an interesting thought, but I feel that "slight reworking" is going to be more trouble. There's a direct scaling between good saves and save DCs across hit dice: Good save bonuses increase by +1 every two levels, spell save DCs increase every spell level (about every two character levels), monster ability save DCs increase every two hit dice.

The problem is that as CRs get higher, monsters have more and more HD compared to the characters, and thus characters need save boosting gear to hope to make those DCs...and the situation runs out of control.


This gives me an idea, though....what if there were no "base" bonuses, to saves or DCs? Every save DC is 10+ability modifier, every saving throw is d20+ability modifier. That eliminates the HD issue right out the picture.

Kyace
2007-07-24, 05:00 PM
Currently, LA classes are balanced with the idea that ability scores become less important the more class levels you have. If DCs and saves are based solely on abilities many LA +x races become stronger than LA +0 races.

Diggorian
2007-07-24, 06:37 PM
This gives me an idea, though....what if there were no "base" bonuses, to saves or DCs? Every save DC is 10+ability modifier, every saving throw is d20+ability modifier. That eliminates the HD issue right out the picture.


This would result in lower save rolls and DCs but then the strong BAB classes have an unfair advantage. You could toss BAB, then advantage is retained for them given bigger HPs. Toss out HPs and you could use the Injury variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/injury.htm). I believe skill points are balanced versus class abilites.

Now you've got ... 4th edition? :smallamused:

ArmorArmadillo
2007-07-24, 07:49 PM
Currently, LA classes are balanced with the idea that ability scores become less important the more class levels you have. If DCs and saves are based solely on abilities many LA +x races become stronger than LA +0 races.
Ultimately LA races really just aren't well balanced at all; frankly they aren't really meant to be played in the first place.

I don't believe that the flat Ability v. Ability equation is a good solution, but something like it would be.

Here's an idea-
Each race gives a +1 bonus to one saving throw.
The first class level you take gives a +2 bonus to one saving throw.
Add your ability scores to save bonuses based on the normal methods.
Lightning Reflexes and the like give a +1 bonus to 1 saving throw.

Spell Save DCs are 10+Ability Modifier. Heighten spell can increase the DC by a 1 by raising the spell level.

Special Abilities with Save DCs (Usually determined by 10+1/2 HD+Ability Scores) are now just 10+Ability Modifier.


I don't see how it has anything to do with strong BAB classes, as saving throws and attack rolls are completely separate.

Matthew
2007-07-26, 11:09 PM
I dunno, this kind of invalidates the High Level to Low Level power discrepency (which I think is a valuable concept in a game like D&D). Persoanlly, I would be more inclined to make all Saves Scale by level, as with Saga:

Save = D20/10 + Character Level/Hit Dice + Relevant Attribute Modifier

ClericofPhwarrr
2007-07-26, 11:30 PM
Ultimately LA races really just aren't well balanced at all; frankly they aren't really meant to be played in the first place.

That's a pretty sweeping statement, given the popularity of LA races, and number of books other than the monster manuals with LA races (Expanded Psionics, Races of _____, etc). Some LA races aren't well balanced, but many are, and offer interesting options.

Yakk
2007-07-26, 11:58 PM
This isn't just a problem with saving throws.

It is a problem with D&D's linear modifier growth as you gain levels (3/4 BaB, 1/2 Reflex, 1/2 DC, etc), mixed with D&D's affine conflict resolution mechanic (d20 + modifier vs 10+difficulty).

In the linear case, doubling both sides is a neutral action.

In the affine case, adding 20 to each side is a neutral action.

But when you have linear modifiers on top of an affine base, you end up with exactly what you describe: the game changes to auto-win or auto-lose.

For D&D to scale "right", both modifiers and conflict resolution needs to scale in the same way.

You could emulate affine curves with linear ones, but it requires a straitjacket on the game -- and the spooky ones failed to walk the tightrope of sanity.

Matthew
2007-07-27, 12:31 AM
I completely agree with Yakk there. The DC for Spell saves should be 10/D20 + Caster Level, possibly with caps, as well as Saves scaling by level.

ArmorArmadillo
2007-07-27, 10:17 AM
I dunno, this kind of invalidates the High Level to Low Level power discrepency (which I think is a valuable concept in a game like D&D). Persoanlly, I would be more inclined to make all Saves Scale by level, as with Saga:

Save = D20/10 + Character Level/Hit Dice + Relevant Attribute Modifier

I don't see why this discrepency is important-
High level characters simply don't fight low level characters; or monsters; or if they do, it's only to defeat them utterly.

And the bonus on saving throws is only as good as the difficulty class it's compared against. As far as I see it, you should be somewhat likely, but not highly likely, to save against a monster's effect. The current save system doesn't do this.

Matthew
2007-07-27, 10:20 AM
I don't see why this discrepency is important-
High level characters simply don't fight low level characters; or monsters; or if they do, it's only to defeat them utterly.

And the bonus on saving throws is only as good as the difficulty class it's compared against. As far as I see it, you should be somewhat likely, but not highly likely, to save against a monster's effect. The current save system doesn't do this.

Well, that may be the case in your games, I don't really know. I suppose it depends what you mean by 'High' and 'Low'. I just think it is intrinsic to a game like this that as Characters get higher level they get better at resisting lower level effects.

ArmorArmadillo
2007-07-27, 11:24 AM
Well, that may be the case in your games, I don't really know. I suppose it depends what you mean by 'High' and 'Low'. I just think it is intrinsic to a game like this that as Characters get higher level they get better at resisting lower level effects.

I suppose, but it's simply really unlikely for higher level characters to encounter lower level effects.
Once you're level 12, you shouldn't be fighting CR 2 monsters; and if you are, what's the point if you can resist the it's ability so easily?

I feel like a lot of this problem comes from the fact that saving throws too often make the difference between life and death. (Either by killing you outright or save or suck. Taking out a key party-member can turn a bad start into a frustrating TPK)

Therefore, save bonuses are designed to progress much faster than Save DCs; which leads to excessively Natural 1 oriented high level combat. I think that's a problem.
Also, it makes saves, and the classes centered around them, very asymmetrical. Rogues are good at reflex saves; and Wizards are good at Will Saves. Reflex save Vs. Full damage from a fireball; Will Save Vs. Insanity.

Pokemaster
2007-07-27, 02:55 PM
I think the problem is that, while creature's saving throws will improve greatly depending on level/HD, the party's DCs probably won't be able to keep up. I think that the way the Star Wars Saga Edition handled saving throws is probably one of the system's greatest strengths.

You get Fortitude, Reflex and Will defenses, which are equal to 10 plus your heroic character level plus your ability modifier plus small class-based bonuses plus a few other equipment-based modifiers that might apply. If you want to attack someone with the Force, you make a Use the Force skill check and compare it to the target's appropriate defense. Defenses can get really high, but your character's level and experience actually has an effect on your ability to hit people, which I like.

In 3.5E, Fighters have to overcome their opponent's armor class, while spellcasting classes are designed so that the target has to overcome the spell and the caster's primary ability modifier (which, at higher level, probably won't be as significant as the spell's level), and the spellcaster has very little influence over whether or not his spells actually matter. It's better than 2E, where the caster was pretty much irrelevant, but it's still a backwards system.

ArmorArmadillo
2007-07-27, 05:10 PM
I think the problem is that, while creature's saving throws will improve greatly depending on level/HD, the party's DCs probably won't be able to keep up. I think that the way the Star Wars Saga Edition handled saving throws is probably one of the system's greatest strengths.

You get Fortitude, Reflex and Will defenses, which are equal to 10 plus your heroic character level plus your ability modifier plus small class-based bonuses plus a few other equipment-based modifiers that might apply. If you want to attack someone with the Force, you make a Use the Force skill check and compare it to the target's appropriate defense. Defenses can get really high, but your character's level and experience actually has an effect on your ability to hit people, which I like.

In 3.5E, Fighters have to overcome their opponent's armor class, while spellcasting classes are designed so that the target has to overcome the spell and the caster's primary ability modifier (which, at higher level, probably won't be as significant as the spell's level), and the spellcaster has very little influence over whether or not his spells actually matter. It's better than 2E, where the caster was pretty much irrelevant, but it's still a backwards system.

I like the way you describe the Star Wars system.

Really, though, I feel like the "problem" you described spellcasters having (not influence over whether or not his spells matter) is really one of their biggest strengths. Fighters have to go out of their way to plan attacks that can actually hit opponents. Casters just fling spells and their opponents worry about resisting them.

Matthew
2007-07-28, 12:10 AM
Hmmn. With Saga it's just moving the D20 Roll from the Target to the Attacker, not that big of a deal in terms of change.

I think that its the plethora of modifiers that make Saving Throws such a pain.