Magic initiate grants a spell slot- potential ramifications of the change?

[Cybren]

A house rule i'm considering in an upcoming campaign is changing magic initiate to give the user a spell slot & add the spell they pick to their spells known, flat out. How would this impact gameplay? Does it become too "obvious" a choice of a feat for spellcasters? Would it encourage people to dip spellcaster classes more? Less? What would you do in a game that did that

[WhosAGoodBoy]

So in other words, the feat would be Additional Magical Secrets (Lore Bard) but for one spell and two cantrips?

[Cybren]

So in other words, the feat would be Additional Magical Secrets (Lore Bard) but for one spell and two cantrips?

Basically. It would grant 2 cantrips, 1 spell (of first level), and give you a first level slot. In some cases it already kinda works that way, due to how certain classes have their spellcasting feature worded. (i'd have to double check which ones, but i believe the issue comes from classes that say "you can cast/prepare a spell you know" vs "you can cast/prepare a [class] spell"

[Puh Laden]

According to SA it definitely grants an additional spell prepared/known if you pick a class you have levels in.

[DivisibleByZero]

Flat out giving them another slot is too good.
Adding the spell to their list, allowing more than the one casting currently offered is acceptable.
Don't give them an extra slot with it, simply allow one free casting of that spell per long rest, as it currently is, and add the spell to their list.
Granting an extra slot with it basically mandates that every caster ever should (and will) take this feat, if not for the extra spell known, then definitely for the extra spell slot.

[Mikal]

How will it interact with Warlock spell slots?

Do they get a free Warlock style slot, i.e. rechargeable on short rest and always max level?

If so, it becomes a must have for them, and slightly too powerful.

[Cybren]

How will it interact with Warlock spell slots?

Do they get a free Warlock style slot, i.e. rechargeable on short rest and always max level?

If so, it becomes a must have for them, and slightly too powerful.

it would grant them a non-pact feature first level slot that regenerates on a long rest. The warlock slots are capital S Special.


Flat out giving them another slot is too good.
Adding the spell to their list, allowing more than the one casting currently offered is acceptable.
Don't give them an extra slot with it, simply allow one free casting of that spell per long rest, as it currently is, and add the spell to their list.
Granting an extra slot with it basically mandates that every caster ever should (and will) take this feat, if not for the extra spell known, then definitely for the extra spell slot.


Im curious why you think it's too good- in the sense that it's broken, would harm game balance, or in the sense that it becomes too obvious a choice and thus less interesting as it removes decisions from the player? I'm also curious why you don't think it's already a must-have for spellcasters? As has been mentioned, picking your own spell list already adds it to your spells known, and for some classes, they can even cast it with their slotsdespite not being on their class spell list (http://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/09/27/magic-initiate-feat-ranger-and-eldritch-knight/).

[Maxilian]

Flat out giving them another slot is too good.
Adding the spell to their list, allowing more than the one casting currently offered is acceptable.
Don't give them an extra slot with it, simply allow one free casting of that spell per long rest, as it currently is, and add the spell to their list.
Granting an extra slot with it basically mandates that every caster ever should (and will) take this feat, if not for the extra spell known, then definitely for the extra spell slot.

Even more if you happen to be a Warlock

[Mikal]

it would grant them a non-pact feature first level slot that regenerates on a long rest. The warlock slots are capital S Special.


Good deal.
Will the other mechanics be the same, i.e. if you choose a Druid spell, any spell cast from the slot keys off Wisdom *AND* if they cast the spell they chose at all it also keys off Wisdom?

If so... the only potential issue I would really see is fueling Smites from Warlocks and Paladins, and Sorcerer Metamagic, as well as stepping on the Bard's toes.

So... slightly unbalanced, but not game breaking. And if your bard players don't get pissed off... try it?

[DivisibleByZero]

Im curious why you think it's too good- in the sense that it's broken, would harm game balance, or in the sense that it becomes too obvious a choice and thus less interesting as it removes decisions from the player? I'm also curious why you don't think it's already a must-have for spellcasters? As has been mentioned, picking your own spell list already adds it to your spells known, and for some classes, they can even cast it with their slotsdespite not being on their class spell list (http://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/09/27/magic-initiate-feat-ranger-and-eldritch-knight/).

Because it becomes a feat which grants a caster more spell slots. Spell slots can be used for anything you like. So while the intent of the feat is to allow you to cast that spell once per day for free, it's similar to a slot. But the difference is that it doesn't actually grant a slot. The only thing you can do with that "slot" is cast that particular spell.

What JC said there essentially boiled down to: "yeah, well, those two classes' spellcasting description were written wonky, so by strict RAW it's cool, but we never intended that."
Strict RAW supporters allow it. RAI supporters do not.
In case you were wondering, I'm in the latter group.

Intended: The feat grants two cantrips and one 1st level spell, all of which use the original class' casting stat. The 1st level spell can be cast once per long rest.
--- If you are also a caster, and you also use this feat to gain spells from your own list, that 1st level spell becomes known and can be cast with your slots in addition to the one/day freebie.

What you're proposing: The feat grants two cantrips and one 1st level spell, all of which use the original class' casting stat. The feat also grants one 1st level spell slot in addition to your normal slots (if you have any), which can be used to cast any spell you like rather than just this spell.
--- If you are also a caster, all of the spells now use your own casting stat regardless of which list they originally came from.

So basically, it's now so good that any caster who doesn't take it is a complete and utter moron.
When that happens, it means that it's too good, which means changing it (to this) is a bad idea.

[Cybren]

Because it becomes a feat which grants a caster more spell slots. Spell slots can be used for anything you like. So while the intent of the feat is to allow you to cast that spell once per day for free, it's similar to a slot. But the difference is that it doesn't actually grant a slot. The only thing you can do with that "slot" is cast that particular spell.

What JC said there essentially boiled down to: "yeah, well, those two classes' spellcasting description were written wonky, so by strict RAW it's cool, but we never intended that."
Strict RAW supporters allow it. RAI supporters do not.
In case you were wondering, I'm in the latter group.

Intended: The feat grants two cantrips and one 1st level spell, all of which use the original class' casting stat. The 1st level spell can be cast once per long rest
--- If you are also a caster, and you also use this feat to gain spells from your own list, that 1st level spell becomes known and can be cast with your slots in addition to the one/day freebie.

What you're proposing: The feat grants two cantrips and one 1st level spell, all of which use the original class' casting stat. The feat also grants one 1st level spell slot in addition to your normal slots (if you have any), which can be used to cast any spell you like rather than just this spell.
--- If you are also a caster, all of the spells now use your own casting stat regardless of which list they originally came from.

So basically, it's now so good that any caster who doesn't take it is a complete and utter moron.
When that happens, it means that it's too good, which means changing it (to this) is a bad idea.
The bold: no one said that. You are making that up for some very strange reason.

At any rate, a wild magic sorcerer that picks, say, mage armor, is probable to cast that spell at least once every day. They are functionally getting another slot by virtue of not having to use their own slots on it. There are other similar first level spells that have an effect like that. I think you're overstating the delta between the two versions of the spell. (at any rate, this is one of a suite of potential changes i'm considering for a variety of reasons, so I was more after a list of concrete examples of how it effects play than just a binary "broken/not broken" statement.)

[DivisibleByZero]

The bold: no one said that. You are making that up for some very strange reason.

My mistake.
I read "add the spell they pick to their spells known, flat out" as spell list instead of spells known.
Probably because it doesn't make any sense to add spells from another list to your own spells known and allowing them to cast the spell from their own slots without actually adding that spell to their list.
And, you know, because you said that this was basically just like Magical Secrets.
So yeah, you kind of did say that.
And this kind of thing is exactly why editing errors and discontinuity between RAW and RAI exist. Because things you say aren't always things you meant to say.

[Deathtongue]

Wizards can refresh FOUR level 1 spell slots on a short-rest starting at level 7 and unless you're a Bladesinger it's a fairly unimpressive use of the feature.

A flat-out extra level 1 spell slot, even if it interacted with your spellcasting ability mod, is not that impressive even at level 1/4, let alone level 12. If it didn't come with a cross-class spell and cantrips (the real value of the feat, and even then it's not that great) I wouldn't use a feat on it. Hell, I wouldn't use a feat on it even if it gave me N-2 slots until I got to level 11 or so.

Ask yourself how many optimizers are willing to forgo extra 6th and 7th level spell slots for things like '+1 AC and access to smite' or '+STR/DEX damage to saves and Action Surge'. It's just not that big of a deal.

[Cybren]

My mistake.
I read "add the spell they pick to their spells known, flat out" as spell list instead of spells known.
Probably because it doesn't make any sense to add spells from another list to your own spells known and allowing them to cast the spell from their own slots without actually adding that spell to their list.
And, you know, because you said that this was basically just like Magical Secrets.
So yeah, you kind of did say that.
And this kind of things is exactly why editing errors and discontinuity between RAW and RAI exist. Because things you say aren't always things you meant to say.

I mean, an eldricht knight that takes sorcerer levels is gong to add a non-zero number of sorcerer spells to their spells known... that they have to cast with cha. So that part doesn't follow. Saying it "basically works like magical secrets" i'll give you, but magical secrets was someone elses example, so my replying "basically, yeah" is not really an inclusive set of rules with regards to what i intended.

[DivisibleByZero]

but magical secrets was someone elses example, so my replying "basically, yeah" is not really an inclusive set of rules with regards to what i intended.

So you're saying that you should have responded to that question in the negative rather than the affirmative, and that you shouldn't have been so defensive about my reading of what you wrote.
I can accept that.

[Cybren]

So you're saying that you should have responded to that question in the negative rather than the affirmative, and that you shouldn't have been so defensive about my reading of what you wrote.
I can accept that.

i'm not sure you know what "basically" means.

[DivisibleByZero]

i'm not sure you know what "basically" means.

I'm not sure you can admit that you wrote something that could have been misleading, and then told me I was making things up when in fact what you wrote yourself could have easily been read that way.

Here's an idea, just write out exactly what you'd like to have this feat do, as if it were in print in the PHB.

[CantigThimble]

So are you saying the magic initiate spell known would work like a multiclass spell known, where you can cast it using any slot but it uses the casting stat of the class the spell came from?

But the slot would be a unique "+1 1st level spell slot" (which doesn't have any parallels in the game as of now).

[Sigreid]

I don't even think it would be a problem if it did act like magical secrets. It's a first level spell and while it may let the wizard act as a healer, it isn't that powerful.

[Matrix_Walker]

Magic Initiate would be just fine if it granted a spell slot instead of a 1 per day casting of the single spell, as long as casting the spell followed the rules of it's parent class.

You don't get so many Feats that using one to get an extra first level spell slot is worthwhile.

Warlock spell slots still would have to refresh via long rest to keep it in line with the others... Alternatively, I might allow "Magic Initiate: Warlock" to refresh it's slot on a short rest like other warlock spell slots, but I would rule they got only one cantrip for that variation.

[Mikal]

Any feat that adds to a Warlock's list of spell slots and allows full Warlock casting (short rest, max spells), is going to be one that the vast majority of the class would take.

If it's something the vast majority of the class would take, then it's unbalanced, since it's essentially a feat tax- "Take this, or suck."

I would... strongly encourage you not to go down any such rabbit hole.

Initiate is balanced by the fact you have to use the spellcasting stat of the class you selected for the spell, and the slot can only be used for the 1st level version of the 1st level spell.

It's already unbalancing things by making it a universal slot, since it also gives you a free spell known from *any* class.

It's less unbalanced by making both a) the spell slot use the casting stat of the class you selected and b) any use of the spell you choose use the casting stat of the class you selected.

If you make it a universal spell slot, and the spell you get can also be used with your casting stat, it unbalances even further, into the realm of "not a good idea".

[Specter]

An extra level 1 slot, you mean (maxing them at 5 instead of 4)?

Meh. At lower levels it will be big, but later on it will be negligible.

Now warlock slots, on the other hand...

[WhosAGoodBoy]

Basically. It would grant 2 cantrips, 1 spell (of first level), and give you a first level slot. In some cases it already kinda works that way, due to how certain classes have their spellcasting feature worded. (i'd have to double check which ones, but i believe the issue comes from classes that say "you can cast/prepare a spell you know" vs "you can cast/prepare a [class] spell"

Neat, I don't find that OP. The main difference (if I read correctly) is that instead of that specific spell being like an ability--where it's independent of any spell slots you have--you just lump it into whatever spellslot array you currently have.

Full disclosure: I'm not /super/ critical of game balance since, invariably, you'll have a min-max'er who's prepared to exploit any update. I'll also say that I have the bias that 5e as it exists right now is not perfectly balanced (it's balanced enough to be fun, which works for me).

Since there's some confusion in the thread, I thought I'd draft what I understand to be a valid way to express the new feat:

MAGIC APPRENTICE*
Choose a class: bard, cleric, druid, sorcerer, warlock, or wizard. You learn** two cantrips and one 1st-level spell of your choice from that class’s spell list. In addition, you gain one 1st-level spell slot which you regain after you finish a long rest.
Your spellcasting ability for these spells depends on the class you chose: Charisma for bard, sorcerer, or warlock; Wisdom for cleric or druid: or Intelligence for wizard.

*first word that popped in my head which was better than 'initiate' but worse than someone who'd be conventionally adept at magic

** "learn" explicitly to help disambiguate this from a caster who may otherwise prepare his other spells

Some random thoughts on what this feat enables:

1. A warlock with this feat gets a little bit of flexibility since they have an option separate from their Pact Magic slots.

2. A sorcerer gets some extra fuel for spell slot / Sorcerery Point conversion

3. The closest thing to being OP about this feat I can tell is learning a spell which can scale with your existing slots. Adding that plain-jane Magic Initiate already feels like a beefy feat since it enables a Sorcerer/Bard/Paladin to be a comprehensive long-range striker by picking up Eldritch Blast and Hex (/if/ they wanted it -- that won't always be the best choice considering party composition)

4. Magic Initiate, generally speaking, feels like a feat to promote versatility (as opposed to specialization). Magic Apprentice, if it would give you a spell slot, is both pro-versatility and pro-specialization (since, presumably, you can use that slot to bolster your existing spell vocabulary)

[Mikal]

An extra level 1 slot, you mean (maxing them at 5 instead of 4)?

Meh. At lower levels it will be big, but later on it will be negligible.

Now warlock slots, on the other hand...

It's less the spell slot and more "oh hey, this is the Tomelock's ability to get any spell you want. But better cause it isn't just cantrips! And they stack!"

[Cybren]

Neat, I don't find that OP. The main difference (if I read correctly) is that instead of that specific spell being like an ability--where it's independent of any spell slots you have--you just lump it into whatever spellslot array you currently have.

Full disclosure: I'm not /super/ critical of game balance since, invariably, you'll have a min-max'er who's prepared to exploit any update. I'll also say that I have the bias that 5e as it exists right now is not perfectly balanced (it's balanced enough to be fun, which works for me).

To be honest, I don't really believe in game balance. "Game balance" only matters in as far as some people perceive a lack of it as harming their enjoyment of the game, but it isn't real.




Since there's some confusion in the thread, I thought I'd draft what I understand to be a valid way to express the new feat:

MAGIC APPRENTICE*
Choose a class: bard, cleric, druid, sorcerer, warlock, or wizard. You learn** two cantrips and one 1st-level spell of your choice from that class’s spell list. In addition, you gain one 1st-level spell slot which you regain after you finish a long rest.
Your spellcasting ability for these spells depends on the class you chose: Charisma for bard, sorcerer, or warlock; Wisdom for cleric or druid: or Intelligence for wizard.

*first word that popped in my head which was better than 'initiate' but worse than someone who'd be conventionally adept at magic

** "learn" explicitly to help disambiguate this from a caster who may otherwise prepare his other spells

That's what I had in mind, yeah.