View Full Version : Assist with charges: Diving vs Spirited

2007-07-24, 04:47 PM
Yet another question to the DM's out there with good understandings of how rules overlap.

Diving Charge - happens whenever something flying charges and descends a min. distance. It gives piercing or slashing damage x2

Spirited Charge - is a feat and gives charges x2 damage or lances x3.

1) So, rider with spirited charge feat riding a flying (fill in the blank) performs a diving charge...is it a spirited-diving charge for 3x damage (piercing/slashing weapons) and 4x damage (lance) following an additive damage modifier rule? Do these rules stack?
- I know they do not multiply the multiple, but how exactly do they interact?

2) Following that logic if correct, then a critical with the above spirited diving charge with a lance would be what damage?
- x2 diving
- x3 spirited
- x3 critical
Is it x6 (add each one at a time with the (xN-1))?
Is it x7 (add them ALL together and then minus 1)?
And doesn't that little super-munchkin in all of us wish it was x18?


Keld Denar
2007-07-24, 04:53 PM
Rules for adding multipliers follow this formula:

(first mulitplyer) + (second multiplier -1) + (third mutiplier -1) + ....


(2) + (3-1) + (3-1) = x6

The White Knight
2007-07-24, 04:58 PM
Where's Diving Charge located?

2007-07-24, 05:49 PM
Rules for adding multipliers follow this formula:

(first mulitplyer) + (second multiplier -1) + (third mutiplier -1) + ....


(2) + (3-1) + (3-1) = x6

Could you be so kind to give us your source of information. I'm interested in this too because its high likely that I will play a mounted combat character soon.

2007-07-24, 06:03 PM
Yeah, flying mounts seem to be the order of the day currently. I have a paladin/griffonrider who's giving me a real headache.

Iku Rex
2007-07-24, 06:03 PM
Diving Charge is from Races of the Wild and it doesn't work the way the OP thinks it does. (Or he's talking about a homebrew/3rd party feat with the same name.) It gets you [1-3]d6 extra damage on a diving charge depending on fly speed.

As for multipliers:

Sometimes a rule makes you multiply a number or a die roll. As long as you’re applying a single multiplier, multiply the number normally. When two or more multipliers apply to any abstract value (such as a modifier or a die roll), however, combine them into a single multiple, with each extra multiple adding 1 less than its value to the first multiple. Thus, a double (×2) and a double (×2) applied to the same number results in a triple (×3, because 2 + 1 = 3). -- http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm

2007-07-24, 06:19 PM
When the original poster talks about a diving charge, he isn't referring to a feat; he's referring to the dive section of the flying rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#fly).

I'm not sure how the multipliers stack, but I'd tend to go with the old 3.0 rules that you simply add multipliers up. That'd be a x6 modifier on a critical hit.

However, I'm not sure you can do a dive attack with anything other than certain types of natural weapons (claws and talons). Raptorans specify that they can do it with any type of piercing weapons, but the fact that they say that specifically makes me think that's an exception.

2007-07-24, 06:42 PM
Ah, yes indeed I speak of basic flying rules. My confusion (or perhaps my inner munchkin) finds a discrepancy between sources and depending on the interpretation it makes all the difference.

You the_snark are quoting D20 org, a very very reputable source which says:

“A creature that flies can make dive attacks. A dive attack works just like a charge, but the diving creature must move a minimum of 30 feet and descend at least 10 feet. It can make only claw or talon attacks, but these deal double damage. A creature can use the run action while flying, provided it flies in a straight line.” - D20 org

BUT, I will quote from 'The Rules of the Game: All about Movement (part five)' of the official DnD website which I would place as one step higher saying:

“Flying creatures can use the charge action. A flying charge must be in straight line and most cover at least 10 feet (2 squares). A flyer can charge while diving, but not while gaining more than 5 feet altitude (unless the flyer has perfect maneuverability and can climb without losing speed).
If a flyer makes a diving charge of at least 30 feet (6 squares) and also loses 10 feet of altitude or more, it can attack only with a claw or with a piercing or slashing weapon. These attacks, however, deal double damage.” - www.wizards.com

Now, in this case it was specifically mentioned slashing and piercing weapons as something different from claws etc.

Here’s the catch (I love taking arguments to the farthest possibility) a flying character with inherent flying abilities or those of a spell could use the diving charge, yes.

Ie. Our gnome druid PC has a party member cast fly on him and he diving charges into the fray with a sickle = acceptable use of rules

But what if that druid was on a wolf…the spell is cast on the druid and the druid shares the spell as per animal companion basics so they both fly…just one rides the other

Ie. The flying wolf with the druid (who can fly independently) make a diving charge into battle and here under RAW should BOTH be able to benefit from a flying charge as they both fly, have slashing weapons and both charge = acceptable use of rules

Now, if you can reasonably explain how a flying druid on a flying wolf in any way is some how different than a druid flying on top of a dire bat (without taking mind-shattering illogical leaps) then I will concede.

P.S. Thanks for clearing up the x6 multiple stacking rules.

2007-07-24, 08:11 PM
Now, if you can reasonably explain how a flying druid on a flying wolf in any way is some how different than a druid flying on top of a dire bat (without taking mind-shattering illogical leaps) then I will concede.
This doesn't invalidate your point in terms of rules, but I just wanted to say that, from a realistic point of view, they are very diferent. In one case the druid is flying by himself, he is not really mounting the wolf, only going along with it.
If they were on the ground it would be like a levitating person simply being carried along by the mount (the guy doesn't even need a ride check to stay on the mount, he's not gonna fall anyway).

In the second case, the guy is actually riding the bat. The beast is moving all "unstable" (in lack of a better word), and not just straight forward like the wolf.
The druid will fall with it, and won't be pulled down by it (or by the spell fly). And (most important) what will be moving them both (and giving them impulse) are the bat's muscles (through it's wings), instead of the strenght of the fly spell cast on the wolf.