Does CR even mean anything anymore?

[Lye]

I picked up 5e recently and am having a blast with it, but when it comes to assigning monsters to a fight based on CR, I've been confounded more often than not. I've been playing 3.5 for about 17 years now and predicting how fights will turn out is something I can now do with such precision that combat has become a bore.

But with 5e? I'm completely lost. My PC's have more often than not just completely trashed fights I thought were going to be hard and struggled with fights that looked like a cakewalk.

At level 6, a monk and a sorcerer destroyed a level 8 paladin and his entourage of five level 2 paladins in training.

This same pair almost defeated two level 9 sorcerers, two level 5 paladins, two level 3 clerics, and two level 3 fighters.

After they gained a level and a cleric party member, this group continued on their rampage, destroying a CR 17 death knight with no complications.

But on the very next day, nearly die to eight CR 2 centaur.

Am I missing something? Because honestly, I'm at a loss. Is CR in 5e this much harder to place or does it even mean anything anymore other than how much xp a creature is worth?

[DanyBallon]

You might want to look at this (http://media.wizards.com/2016/dnd/downloads/Encounter_Building.pdf) document that expand on the encounter building rules provides in the DMG and MM.

It's not perfect, but should help you out at being better setting the appropriate challenge for you players.

[MrFahrenheit]

Solos in 5e are easy as pie for parties to take down. Sure the BBEG has cool abilities, but if he's going once every six PCs (regardless of initiative), he's not gonna get off too many beforehand being shut down.

SO...what's a DM to do?

I've discovered three viable options:
1. Give the BBEG minions (though I am curious as to why the paladin fight OP mentioned went the way it did)
2. Give the BBEG an at-or-close-to-CR partner or two, if you don't want to deal with #1's long initiative lines
3. If you *really* want to throw the party up against a BBEG by itself, deprive the party of rest leading up to it. A couple encounters, maaaaaybe a short rest, then boss battle? Casters shouldn't have too many slots left, and long rest dependent abilities may all be shot.

[Sigreid]

Solos in 5e are easy as pie for parties to take down. Sure the BBEG has cool abilities, but if he's going once every six PCs (regardless of initiative), he's not gonna get off too many beforehand being shut down.

SO...what's a DM to do?

I've discovered three viable options:
1. Give the BBEG minions (though I am curious as to why the paladin fight OP mentioned went the way it did)
2. Give the BBEG an at-or-close-to-CR partner or two, if you don't want to deal with #1's long initiative lines
3. If you *really* want to throw the party up against a BBEG by itself, deprive the party of rest leading up to it. A couple encounters, maaaaaybe a short rest, then boss battle? Casters shouldn't have too many slots left, and long rest dependent abilities may all be shot.

For the paladin fight, a 6th level sorc with a good fire ball damage roll can wipe out level 2 help in 1 action if they are anywherror near each other, even if they make their save.

[Ninja_Prawn]

But on the very next day, nearly die to eight CR 2 centaur.

Centaurs are badass, man. A group I was DMing for brought along a group of 5 centaur allies on an assault against a gnoll tribe (approx 50 fighters). The centaurs did most of the heavy lifting while the PCs infiltrated the cave to rescue prisoners, and it was an absolute bloodbath.

[Socratov]

To add to the fine suggestions above, let me explain something about this edition:

This edition was built around the math behind bounded accuracy. This means that to hit numbers and armour values stop inflating very early on (this is equally true for saves vs magic, and other effects). You will generally start at or around AC 14, and will probably end up with AC 22 unless you invest into it heavily (as in, extremely heavily). Likewise your To-hit will start at (assuming 14 in your main attack stat) +4 and grow to a max of +11 (barring stuff like archery fighting style and other effects that add to to-hit, but they are rare) form a +5 (capped) ability modifier and +6 proficiency.

with an expected swing of 7 in passive modifiers to the rolls compared to a swing of 19 on the die it's clear that the die will do a lot of the talking. Sometimes you might get lucky and defeat something waaaay above your paygrade (like 2 lvl 8s vs a CR 17). But it also ensures that a CR2 enemy stays somewhat relevant and able to hurt the players. Sure it takes a lot more luck and/or numbers of the CR 2 to do so, but it is possible.

One possible solution is to change the proficiency scale (and to increase armour values accordingly) by X amount (and armour values by a corresponding amount) to create more of a growth curve over the levels. And before people start shouting about how bounded accuracy is sacred and the numbers are perfect: as long as you are consistent in your approach it does not matter what number proficiency is, it will only affect the relationship between intra level threats and not inter level threats. Mind you, this will make sure that a lot less of the MM is usable vs your players.

And there you have it, know you know not only the What, and the How, but the Why as well.

[Rynjin]

Came here to pretty much post the above.

High level characters in this system are "Dudes with more cool stuff", that and HP is all a level is really worth. Instead of the level 1 chumps needing a 20 to hit your CR 17 Deathknight, they only need to roll a 14 or so. This changes things IMMENSELY, and makes the game far more dangerous for both sides. Ostensibly, I guess. Death saves make surviving a lot easier, so it really just makes the game easier for the PCs overall unless they ALL get knocked out.

[MrFahrenheit]

Came here to pretty much post the above.

High level characters in this system are "Dudes with more cool stuff", that and HP is all a level is really worth. Instead of the level 1 chumps needing a 20 to hit your CR 17 Deathknight, they only need to roll a 14 or so. This changes things IMMENSELY, and makes the game far more dangerous for both sides. Ostensibly, I guess. Death saves make surviving a lot easier, so it really just makes the game easier for the PCs overall unless they ALL get knocked out.

And bounded accuracy works in reverse. I wouldn't suggest adjusting the numbers, as that's a lot of mathematical changes to make, even if the end result would see more of a sliding scale. When my party was around level 12-13 or so, I had them go up against a death slaad who was guarded by (among others) two giant crocs. Those are CR 5.

Pre-combat: thief snuck up to death slaad and stole his great sword.

During combat: death slaad had his spells, sure, but virtually no melee. But those crocodiles? Holy crap, man...

[Unoriginal]

At level 6, a monk and a sorcerer destroyed a level 8 paladin and his entourage of five level 2 paladins in training.

This same pair almost defeated two level 9 sorcerers, two level 5 paladins, two level 3 clerics, and two level 3 fighters.

...Did you use PC class HPs, or NPC HP?


After they gained a level and a cleric party member, this group continued on their rampage, destroying a CR 17 death knight with no complications.

This, I find weird. What did the Death Knight do? It should have been a tougher fight, at least.


But on the very next day, nearly die to eight CR 2 centaur.

That's a Deadly encounter for 3 lvl 9 characters. Not surprising.


Am I missing something? Because honestly, I'm at a loss. Is CR in 5e this much harder to place or does it even mean anything anymore other than how much xp a creature is worth?

CR means "a group of 4 PCs of this level can take it". It's not calculated the same for groups of enemies.

[Flashy]

Also, since I don't see it mentioned above, class level no longer translates directly to CR since PCs and monsters use fundamentally different construction guidelines. The ninth level Sorcerer probably works out around CR 3 or 4.

[Steampunkette]

Level =/= CR.

A CR 1 Animated Armor has 33 hit points, 5 dice of HP.

You were throwing them against level 5 Paladins and that works out to CR 1 characters, in most cases.

Level 2 Paladins only come in at 1/4 CR or so.

[BiPolar]

It may also be a question of how intelligently are you playing your intelligent monsters? They should be thinking and working tactically together to try and defeat your players.

And as others have pointed out, typically single monster fights are pretty easy, it's the hordes that cause most issues.

[dejarnjc]

This, I find weird. What did the Death Knight do? It should have been a tougher fight, at least.


This one confuses me too.

AC: 20, HP: 180 with advantage against spells and a hellfire orb (fireball) that on avg does 70dmg w/ a DC 18 dex save. Not to mention destructive wave, three attacks at +11 to hit and (1d8+5) + (4d8) of damage.

The hellfire orb alone would potentially one-shot one or more characters.


This is deadly to four level 12 characters even with the gross disadvantage in action economy... Three level 7s should not cutting it w/out a HEAVY environmental or roleplay advantage on their side.

[TrinculoLives]

3. If you *really* want to throw the party up against a BBEG by itself, deprive the party of rest leading up to it. A couple encounters, maaaaaybe a short rest, then boss battle? Casters shouldn't have too many slots left, and long rest dependent abilities may all be shot.

Giving Legendary Resistances and Legendary Actions to solo BBEG's that don't normally have them is a useful technique. That way, your boss won't be taken out of the fight with a single Save-or-Suck spell from the wizard, and will be able to move around and attack even when it's not their turn.

[Lye]

...Did you use PC class HPs, or NPC HP?

What is NPC hp? I just took a quick look through the DMG and I didn't come up with any answers.




This, I find weird. What did the Death Knight do? It should have been a tougher fight, at least.

That's actually kind of a funny story.

So the Death Knight was an ancient general from a land that had long since been conquered and he was spending his un-life re-strategizing the last battle he ever fought. After four hundred years of doing this, alone in his own little section of a necropolis decorated as his former war room, he went a little mental. When the PC's burst into his room, he mistook them as messengers from the front lines of the battle he's been planning over and over again for centuries.

I find giving the opportunity for subtlety and guile in dungeons a nice reprieve from a hack and slash adventure, so I give my players these opportunities. A lot of the time, they take advantage of it (since I still give xp for circumvented dangers provided their role-play is adequate), this was not one of those times.

When the cleric, a big minotaur in plate armor named Baldur, walks into the room and the general demands news from the front lines, Baldur lifts up his holy symbol and bellows in a deep southern drawl "Evil Begone!" turning the poor general. The general backs into the corner of the room, in increasing fear for the next seven rounds. His quiet demands for answers turn into shrieks of terror as Baldur fails to initiate the PC's battle plan with sacred flame, each round punctuating the general's cries for help with little phrases like "Wait, wait, I missed." and "Got dang it, quit squirmin'!"

Round 1, death knight was surprised, gets turned by the cleric. Round 2, Death Knight turned, all PC's take readied actions to deal damage. Round 3, Death knight is stunned by the monk. Round 4, Death Knight is re-stunned by the monk and the Death Knight is destroyed.

[Lye]

Giving Legendary Resistances and Legendary Actions to solo BBEG's that don't normally have them is a useful technique. That way, your boss won't be taken out of the fight with a single Save-or-Suck spell from the wizard, and will be able to move around and attack even when it's not their turn.

I sort of took legendary resistance for granted before, but now that I've seen this last fight against a Death Knight and my level 7 PCs, I see why it's integral.

[Theoboldi]

So the Death Knight was an ancient general from a land that had long since been conquered and he was spending his un-life re-strategizing the last battle he ever fought. After four hundred years of doing this, alone in his own little section of a necropolis decorated as his former war room, he went a little mental. When the PC's burst into his room, he mistook them as messengers from the front lines of the battle he's been planning over and over again for centuries.

I find giving the opportunity for subtlety and guile in dungeons a nice reprieve from a hack and slash adventure, so I give my players these opportunities. A lot of the time, they take advantage of it (since I still give xp for circumvented dangers provided their role-play is adequate), this was not one of those times.

When the cleric, a big minotaur in plate armor named Baldur, walks into the room and the general demands news from the front lines, Baldur lifts up his holy symbol and bellows in a deep southern drawl "Evil Begone!" turning the poor general. The general backs into the corner of the room, in increasing fear for the next seven rounds. His quiet demands for answers turn into shrieks of terror as Baldur fails to initiate the PC's battle plan with sacred flame, each round punctuating the general's cries for help with little phrases like "Wait, wait, I missed." and "Got dang it, quit squirmin'!"

Round 1, death knight was surprised, gets turned by the cleric. Round 2, Death Knight turned, all PC's take readied actions to deal damage. Round 3, Death knight is stunned by the monk. Round 4, Death Knight is re-stunned by the monk and the Death Knight is destroyed.

Dunno if it would have changed anything, but Turn Undead lasts only until the creature takes damage. So the death knight should probably have been able to take at least one action here.

[Lye]

Dunno if it would have changed anything, but Turn Undead lasts only until the creature takes damage. So the death knight should probably have been able to take at least one action here.

As I understand readied actions in 5e, your initiative count doesn't shift after taking the action. So once they all took their readied actions, the sorcerer and monk still got to act again before it was the deathknight's turn. To his credit, he did parry the monk's first attack.

[DragonSorcererX]

What is NPC hp? I just took a quick look through the DMG and I didn't come up with any answers.

NPCs and Monsters work different in this edition, their Hit Die is based of their size and not their class, their Proficiency Bonus comes from their CR, and their stats maybe similar to PCs but they are much more simplified for less bookkeeping and less massive statblocks.

Basically, Monsters and NPCs can be built in any way the DM wants in this edition, like it was in 4e but less abstract and random...

[Unoriginal]

What is NPC hp? I just took a quick look through the DMG and I didn't come up with any answers.

NPC statblocks tend to have a bit more health than player classes.



When the cleric, a big minotaur in plate armor named Baldur, walks into the room and the general demands news from the front lines, Baldur lifts up his holy symbol and bellows in a deep southern drawl "Evil Begone!" turning the poor general. The general backs into the corner of the room, in increasing fear for the next seven rounds. His quiet demands for answers turn into shrieks of terror as Baldur fails to initiate the PC's battle plan with sacred flame, each round punctuating the general's cries for help with little phrases like "Wait, wait, I missed." and "Got dang it, quit squirmin'!"

A Death Knight is immune to being frightened. The turned Death Knight, who apparently managed to fail a WIS saving throw with advantage and +9, should have been trying to get away from the group, not just stay in the corner.


Round 1, death knight was surprised, gets turned by the cleric. Round 2, Death Knight turned, all PC's take readied actions to deal damage. Round 3, Death knight is stunned by the monk. Round 4, Death Knight is re-stunned by the monk and the Death Knight is destroyed.

So, you're telling me that a Death Knight lost 180 HPs in two rounds? Against 3 lvl 8 PCs? With AC 20? And that he failed his CON save roll with a +10 against stunning, twice?

Also, what do you mean by "readied actions", exactly?


I sort of took legendary resistance for granted before, but now that I've seen this last fight against a Death Knight and my level 7 PCs, I see why it's integral.

Dude. If you deliberately make the encounter easier by making the Knight act dumb, don't blame the encounter.

I'm not saying it wasn't a nice backstory or a flavorful encounter, just that you nerfed the Death Knight hard.

[tkuremento]

Dude. If you deliberately make the encounter easier by making the Knight act dumb, don't blame the encounter.

I'm not saying it wasn't a nice backstory or a flavorful encounter, just that you nerfed the Death Knight hard.

I second this

[Malifice]

What is NPC hp? I just took a quick look through the DMG and I didn't come up with any answers.





That's actually kind of a funny story.

So the Death Knight was an ancient general from a land that had long since been conquered and he was spending his un-life re-strategizing the last battle he ever fought. After four hundred years of doing this, alone in his own little section of a necropolis decorated as his former war room, he went a little mental. When the PC's burst into his room, he mistook them as messengers from the front lines of the battle he's been planning over and over again for centuries.

I find giving the opportunity for subtlety and guile in dungeons a nice reprieve from a hack and slash adventure, so I give my players these opportunities. A lot of the time, they take advantage of it (since I still give xp for circumvented dangers provided their role-play is adequate), this was not one of those times.

When the cleric, a big minotaur in plate armor named Baldur, walks into the room and the general demands news from the front lines, Baldur lifts up his holy symbol and bellows in a deep southern drawl "Evil Begone!" turning the poor general. The general backs into the corner of the room, in increasing fear for the next seven rounds. His quiet demands for answers turn into shrieks of terror as Baldur fails to initiate the PC's battle plan with sacred flame, each round punctuating the general's cries for help with little phrases like "Wait, wait, I missed." and "Got dang it, quit squirmin'!"

Round 1, death knight was surprised, gets turned by the cleric. Round 2, Death Knight turned, all PC's take readied actions to deal damage. Round 3, Death knight is stunned by the monk. Round 4, Death Knight is re-stunned by the monk and the Death Knight is destroyed.

All three PCs hit armour class 20 with disadvantage? As the death knight had no where to go, it can take the Dodge action. I'm assuming he did so.

Readied actions only give them one attack each.

Somethings not right here.

[Lye]

A Death Knight is immune to being frightened. The turned Death Knight, who apparently managed to fail a WIS saving throw with advantage and +9, should have been trying to get away from the group, not just stay in the corner.

Because of how the room was shaped, the only direction he could travel which didn't put him closer to the cleric was into a corner. The screaming in terror was really just fluff juxtaposed against the blase cleric for humor.



So, you're telling me that a Death Knight lost 180 HPs in two rounds? Against 3 lvl 8 PCs? With AC 20? And that he failed his CON save roll with a +10 against stunning, twice?

Under the particulars section, I mentioned the actual fight was effectively 3 rounds long. Yes. My three level 7 PCs did 180 damage in a combined 9 actions.



Also, what do you mean by "readied actions", exactly?

Readied actions are covered in the PHB.



Dude. If you deliberately make the encounter easier by making the Knight act dumb, don't blame the encounter.

I'm not saying it wasn't a nice backstory or a flavorful encounter, just that you nerfed the Death Knight hard.

It may not have come through very clearly in my explanation, but I'm pretty sure this isn't what happened.

[Lye]

All three PCs hit armour class 20 with disadvantage? As the death knight had no where to go, it can take the Dodge action. I'm assuming he did so.

I didn't! That would have helped. I'm still new to 5e. I'm used to undead cowering when they get turned into a corner.



Readied actions only give them one attack each.

Are you sure about that? I figured since the ready section said "...You choose the action you will take in response to that trigger...."

You could make a full attack since a full attack takes an action.

I'm not gonna claim I played it perfectly (or even particularly well), but it still seems like something that shouldn't have been possible.

[Unoriginal]

Because of how the room was shaped, the only direction he could travel which didn't put him closer to the cleric was into a corner. The screaming in terror was really just fluff juxtaposed against the blase cleric for humor.

The Death Knight should have tried to escape the corner as the Cleric approached.

Also, how did he fails his WIS check vs turning?


Under the particulars section, I mentioned the actual fight was effectively 3 rounds long. Yes. My three level 7 PCs did 180 damage in a combined 9 actions.

How did level 7 PCs manage to deal an average of 20 damages per action?


VS AC 20, with disadvantage on hits?



Readied actions are covered in the PHB.

Being Ready only give you one action, that's triggered when someone do something, not more actions per turn.



[QUOTE=Lye;21769886]It may not have come through very clearly in my explanation, but I'm pretty sure this isn't what happened.

No, it did happen. Simply having the general not attack them on sight when one is a Cleric with a holy symbol is already pretty nerfing.

[tkuremento]

I didn't! That would have helped. I'm still new to 5e. I'm used to undead cowering when they get turned into a corner.



Are you sure about that? I figured since the ready section said "...You choose the action you will take in response to that trigger...."

You could make a full attack since a full attack takes an action.

I'm not gonna claim I played it perfectly (or even particularly well), but it still seems like something that shouldn't have been possible.

Wording of Extra Attacks implies it only works on your turn. So you can't do it on other turns

[Lye]

Wording of Extra Attacks implies it only works on your turn. So you can't do it on other turns

Aha! The plot thickens.

I'm learning so much from this thread.

[Sigreid]

Aha! The plot thickens.

I'm learning so much from this thread.

Don't worry about it too much. When you come from other editions it's pretty easy to be biased to making mistakes. Just let your party know it won't be so easy next time so they have fair warning.

[mephnick]

Aha! The plot thickens.

I'm learning so much from this thread.

It happens to everyone at some point. Chalk it up to experience.

There have been dozens of threads here about "My level 8 characters killed three adult dragons! 5e is broken! No, they didn't fly. I only had them use claw attacks. They get lair actions?"

[Malifice]

Aha! The plot thickens.

I'm learning so much from this thread.

It sounds like you did surprise wrong as well. It sounds like the death knight was aware of the cleric after he walked in the room. It also sounds like you gave the cleric a free round when that's not how surprise works either. And you forgot to have the death knight take actions (Turning expressly states that if you cannot move for whatever reason he can take the Dodge action). And you messed up the ready action.

It sounds like you also allowed the players to ready actions before initiative was rolled but I'm not 100% certain here. If so that's something else you did wrong.

I'm not entirely sure but it also sounds like you failed to give the death knight advantage on its wisdom saving throw against being turned. Channel Divinity is expressly a 'magical effect' meaning the death knight should have been making his wisdom saving throw at +9 with advantage against a DC of around 15.

In other words he really probably should not have been turned.

Considering he makes three attacks around at +12 to hit, with each one doing 5D8 +5 damage and he has a bonus action left over to use one of his Paladin's smite spells on his list dealing an extra 6d6 damage on one of those successful attacks, your player characters were very very very lucky that you ran the creature very very poorly and messed up a lot of rules.

It should have been a TPK by a long shot.

Leaving aside all of that CR is not important in determining the challenge of an encounter. It's a rough guideline only as to the strength of the monster. To design an encounter you need to use the encounter builder where you combine the monsters and multiply by the number of them to determine the overall encounter difficulty.

Also bear in mind the encounter difficulty guidelines assumes an adventuring day featuring six or so encounters. An adventuring day in 5E being the length of time between two long rests. Encounter difficulty needs to be taken in the context that is but one encounter of a longer adventuring day featuring multiple encounters. The challenge is not the individual encounter; the challenge is surviving the adventuring day. DMs who allow their parties to resort to the five-minute adventuring day need to beef up their encounters considerably as the player characters will be free to nova the crap out of the encounter.

I strongly suggest not doing this however and instead suggest that you maintain a longer adventuring day featuring around 6 encounters.

If you give me your party composition including any magic items they have, that I can design an adventuring day for you to challenge this party.

[Zalabim]

Bear in consideration also that even after calculating an ecounter's XP-based difficulty, that difficulty goes up or down based on situational factors that are major advantages for one side or another, like Surprise, cover, and advantage or disadvantage. Melee enemies at long distances, enemies you get to surprise, and undead facing a cleric are all likely to be disadvantaged, dropping a Deadly encounter's difficulty a great deal.

[Cybren]

And before people start shouting about how bounded accuracy is sacred and the numbers are perfect: as long as you are consistent in your approach it does not matter what number proficiency is, it will only affect the relationship between intra level threats and not inter level threats. Mind you, this will make sure that a lot less of the MM is usable vs your players.

Well, you can say it's an acceptable trade off for your game, but if you "make a lot less of the monster manual usable vs your players" then you've undermined what bounded accuracy is. Which doesn't mean you shouldn't do it, but bounded accuracy very much IS about the range of bonuses relative to each other and "intra level threats"

[Unoriginal]

If you mess with bounded accuracy, a lot of the game crumbles, I get the impression

[Cybren]

It's not that it crumbles but lower level enemies still posing a threat to higher level PCs is a core assumption of the game

[Lye]

How I worked the surprise round was since the Deathknight thought they were his old allies and the cleric wanted to make turn undead his first action, I called for initiative and didn't give the Deathknight an action in the first round.

Is that not how it goes?

I did, however, roll the save against turning with advantage. There were some pretty fortunate rolls for my players in this fight.

[Lye]

Everyone seems pretty interested in the deathknight fight, but it was the centaurs that threw me so much more.

It's going to be a hurdle for me remembering that CR2 creatures can still be relevant in numbers.

[BiPolar]

How I worked the surprise round was since the Deathknight thought they were his old allies and the cleric wanted to make turn undead his first action, I called for initiative and didn't give the Deathknight an action in the first round.

Is that not how it goes?

I did, however, roll the save against turning with advantage. There were some pretty fortunate rolls for my players in this fight.

What was the DC it had to make? As others have said, a +9 with Advantage means you rolled two very low rolls. Which can absolutely happen :)

As for the centaurs - hordes are absolutely a bigger problem than single boss monsters. I think it has to do with the Action economy, but if everyone can concentrate firepower, the BBEG just really can't compete. But a lot of little guys can create a big problem.

[ShikomeKidoMi]

I'm confused as to why your PCs readied actions, what triggered those actions, etc. I know you think this is getting a lot of attention, but I have a suspicion that something's not quite following the rules. The combat sounds like it should have been: Round one, death knight surprised, cleric turns him. Players hit him with readied actions. Round Two: Death knight's turning breaks, because the players hit him (which means it would actually have been more advantageous to have everyone attack and then the cleric go last to turn him in the surprise round). Players attack, Death Knight attacks. Round Three: Stunned by monk (if players still alive and not murdered by Hellball in Round Two).

As for surprise, all that happens is the surprised person doesn't get to go the first round, there's no special 'surprise round' this edition.



As for the centaurs - hordes are absolutely a bigger problem than single boss monsters. I think it has to do with the Action economy, but if everyone can concentrate firepower, the BBEG just really can't compete. But a lot of little guys can create a big problem.

Which is why you need to give your boss monsters minions. If they're, say, an undead general, give them undead soldiers.

[Unoriginal]

Which is why you need to give your boss monsters minions. If they're, say, an undead general, give them undead soldiers.

Ironically, the Death Knight is one of the few monsters I'd trust to be a challenge against a high-level group even in solo

[Lonely Tylenol]

At level 6, a monk and a sorcerer destroyed a level 8 paladin and his entourage of five level 2 paladins in training.

Just using an eyeball test (and average hit dice values/a normal point buy distribution for stats on the paladins), that's a CR 2 or 3 paladin with his entourage of CR 1/4 to 1/2 paladins in training. This is a Medium to Hard encounter for two level 6 characters, but if the Sorcerer knows an AoE damage spell (like Fireball?), they could just annihilate the mooks with a single spell, and then the stronger paladin itself is calculated as low end of Medium difficulty for a single party member. Considering a Medium encounter is defined as "has one or two scary moments for the players, but the characters should emerge victorious with no casualties," that sounds about right.


This same pair almost defeated two level 9 sorcerers, two level 5 paladins, two level 3 clerics, and two level 3 fighters.

At level 6? That's... Let's call the sorcerers Mages (CR 6). A single one of them is a Deadly encounter for a two-player party of level 6. A Deadly encounter, being defined as "Survival often requires good tactics and quick thinking, and the party risks defeat," sounds like you got what you wanted out of that. Outside of that, however, you chose two extremely squishy higher-CR creatures in the sorcerers, and many of the lower-CR creatures are mooks, which could have been taken out by a single Fireball as collateral damage, and are inconsequential to the actual difficulty of the encounter in such a case. The level 5 Paladins are likely Challenge 1 or 2; the level 3 Clerics and Fighters, Challenge 1/4 to 1/2 each (it depends on what ability scores and equipment you gave them). None of them are individually threatening to such a party. Ignoring the Mages (they are way over CR) and using the lower of each figure (I'm assuming well-equipped and PC-equivalent stats on even the mooks for the higher CR estimates), every single one of those fighters from the Paladins on down, added together and multiplied by two for the number of combatants, amounts to a Medium encounter.

I feel like a reminder is prudent, at this point, to note that the DM's job isn't to kill the players, per standard CR expectations, nor is it for the DM to provide coin flip fights routinely. The CR guidelines aren't meant to dictate success probability, steeply dropping off towards zero once you move past Medium; they are essentially meant to decide risk, or how much resources are expended to succeed what is a given encounter. A Medium-level encounter should be won by any standard adventuring party, for example, and it should be won without expending significant healing or other resources, but if the party decides to nova, blowing its highest-level spell slots and long rest abilities in the first round of combat, they should destroy Medium encounters, and take Deadly encounters unexpectedly close.


After they gained a level and a cleric party member, this group continued on their rampage, destroying a CR 17 death knight with no complications.

Reading your actual story, it reminds me of when the group asked me to write an adventure for them to play while I was off-island. In that adventure, I had described an "overwhelming" number of Grimlocks hidden in various crevices and hidey-holes in this massive cavern, all mind controlled by brain slugs (Puppeteers from the SRD) which were being controlled by an elder host who had no specific regard for their well-being. The horde of Grimlocks was meant to choke off their exit and force them to a narrower pass, where a bridge over a cavern led to the other half of the adventure. The intent was for the party to flee the Grimlocks (which were described as a teeming mass, coming from all the walls and even the ceiling, in numbers too big to count), cross the bridge, and cut the bridge behind them (or use the bridge creatively to deter followers), and carry on with the second half of the adventure. If the party engaged the Grimlocks, they'd use horde tactics (using superior numbers to swarm, push through barriers, et cetera) and basic self-preservation, and be unable to speak or respond to communication due to the enthrall effect, but otherwise be normal Grimlocks, and pretty easily overcome them under normal conditions due to sheer numbers. When ever a Grimlock was slain, the Puppeteer was supposed to crawl forth from the body (either out the ear or mouth, or through the cavity the party carved into it) and attempt to use Psionic Charm on the nearest hostile it could see, indicating that no, this was not your ordinary "small numbers vs. big numbers" encounter, you need to be fearful for your lives.

What actually happened was that the DM described the pass itself as being conveniently exactly wide enough for the group's largest character to fit into and prevent other creatures from passing to the rest of the party behind him, and deep enough that the monsters could be funneled in one-by-one, but not so deep and narrow that multiple party members couldn't assist him from immediately behind him. Despite being described as spilling forth from the walls in my written adventure, the Grimlocks only ever engaged along the ground, single file, in a straight line. They never attempted to push their way through or shove using a bull rush, or other, similar, actions, like grappling/dog-piling on the choke point; instead, they walked up, single file, made their single attack against the one party member they could, and ended the turn. When the bodies piled up, they used their action instead to climb on top of the corpses before being slain, adding to the pile without threat. Once the pile got too tall for even the choke point member to reach, the Grimlocks helpfully began pulling bodies away from the pile so they could once again reach the party, then resumed their single-file assault, throwing themselves mindlessly into their only possible foe (and their inevitable deaths) while three party members behind him (on the tail end of the choke) used the Aid Another action to boost his AC to unhittable levels. The DM didn't even read the Puppeteer stat block or acknowledge their existence, and so zero Puppeteers crawled from their hosts and attempted to charm the party members.

Any of a number of intended interactions would have changed this encounter drastically: the pass being more than five feet wide means the party can't form an impassible choke point with their single tankiest member, but have to form a wall of multiple members with vulnerabilities that could be attacked by multiple Grimlocks; the Grimlocks traveling along the walls means they could attack from multiple angles, rather than single file along the ground; the Grimlocks using horde tactics (like using Aid Another themselves to help the front-most Grimlock bull rush the party member blockading them back to push through the barrier they had made) would have prevented a single impassible member from blocking dozens of Grimlocks; the Grimlocks exercising basic self-preservation and not charging single-file once they realized the superiority of the party's position would have prevented dozens of them from moving single-file to their deaths; the Puppeteers crawling out from their dead hosts to find new ones would have led to dozens of potential failed saves, charmed party members, potential thralls, and breaking of fortifications as the party now urgently needs to leave; and many others, any one of which would have meant a severe loss of casualties or an easily unwinnable encounter. Instead, I came home to the Grimlock Grinder.

The point of that story is: if you play creatures mind-numbingly stupid and neglect to use most of their better features, no amount of Challenge Rating will save the encounter.


But on the very next day, nearly die to eight CR 2 centaur.

It's easy to see why: if you wanted a Medium-to-Hard encounter for three level 7 PCs, you'd use three CR 2 Centaurs. (450 XP x3 = 1,350, x2 for the encounter modifier for creature numbers = 2,700 XP; Medium encounter threshold for three 7th-level adventurers is 2,250 XP, and the Hard threshold is 3,300 XP.) What you provided was massive overkill for two or three adventurers alike: 450 XP x8 = 3,600 XP, x2.5 for the encounter modifier for creature numbers = 9,000 XP; Deadly encounter threshold for three 7th-level adventurers is 5,100 XP. This is designed to be a Deadly encounter for a 10th-level party or lower, if the party is that small.

Even more important than the raw numbers (which, again, make this an overwhelmingly deadly encounter that the party should lose), do an eyeball test on the monsters here. There is a major difference between the Centaurs you are using as fodder, and the "level X PC class" humanoids you are assigning significance to, which actually are fodder: if you're building the "level X PC class" humanoids straight, then most of them will have less HP, attack bonus, damage per hit, special damage-increasing attack riders, and diversity in attack options than the Centaur. The average number of hit points on a Con 14 third-level Fighter is 24, or roughly half what the Centaur gets, and the Fighter won't have Multiattack. If you're lucky, the 5th-level Paladins you drafted up might each match one Centaur in difficulty, but possibly not, because of the lack of ranged threat. The numbers that you're using for "level X PC class" fighters are heavily against them being worth creatures half the CR you think they are, or rather, the monsters you think are fodder are actually at least twice as strong as you think they are. Or both.

In short: If your 7th-level Sorcerer throws a Fireball at the third-level Clerics and Fighters, they very likely kill all of them, without ever giving them an action, and then they only have to fight the fewer stronger creatures left. If they throw a Fireball at a group of eight Centaurs, there are no weaker creatures, and they are all as strong as the "stronger creatures left" that Sorcerer was throwing Fireballs at the first time, so now you just have eight angry, moderately wounded Centaurs.

Please please please, if you have a Dungeon Master's Guide available to you, read and understand Page 81-83 (Creating Encounters, including the "Challenge Rating" box on the bottom left of Page 82, and all tables), as well as Page 273-279 (Creating a Monster, including the "Monster Statistics by Challenge Rating" table on the bottom left of Page 274). They will do you a great service, promise.

[MrFahrenheit]

One more thing:

When I started throwing in high CR baddies against the party, what I'd often forget to implement (despite being right there in front of me) was legendary resistances. CR effectively goes through the floor when you (intentionally or not) ignore that.

[Socratov]

Well, you can say it's an acceptable trade off for your game, but if you "make a lot less of the monster manual usable vs your players" then you've undermined what bounded accuracy is. Which doesn't mean you shouldn't do it, but bounded accuracy very much IS about the range of bonuses relative to each other and "intra level threats"


If you mess with bounded accuracy, a lot of the game crumbles, I get the impression


It's not that it crumbles but lower level enemies still posing a threat to higher level PCs is a core assumption of the game

Ok, bounded accuracy is a mathematical way of realising the notion in this game that keeps low level entities posing a threat to high level entities. Please note that bounded accuracy is the tool and keeping the higher and lower levelled threats is the goal to achieve.

Yes, this is what 5e is built for by the designers, but if you as a player/DM think that is not fun and you want more powercreep in your game, you can easily inflate the numbers: by tweaking the numbers like I said above you can create a bigger difference in power between low level entities and high level entities. It's not going to make the game crumble, it's only going to make your job as a DM harder as you will need to be more careful with designing your encounters. And the fact that you can do so through the application of tweaking proficiency (just don't forget to inflate armour accordingly).

Besides, strictly speaking accuracy is still bounded, it just spans different set of numbers and the extremes will become closer or further apart.

Similarly if you want to keep the low and high level threats ore together in terms of powerlevel you can so by making the gap between lowest and highest proficiency smaller.

The only things that will really screw over your game, is enabling the Christmas tree effect by throwing the atunement limit out of the window. Similarly defenestrating the concentration rule will make sure that caster run around like the gods they were in 3.5. And the same goes for adding boosts to to-hit (without similarly adding those boosts to defense).

Addendum: It's that I think this is a good idea, but if you think you want to make that difference in levels count, well, this would be the way to do it.

[Lye]

Just using an eyeball test (and average hit dice values/a normal point buy distribution for stats on the paladins), that's a CR 2 or 3 paladin with his entourage of CR 1/4 to 1/2 paladins in training. This is a Medium to Hard encounter for two level 6 characters, but if the Sorcerer knows an AoE damage spell (like Fireball?), they could just annihilate the mooks with a single spell, and then the stronger paladin itself is calculated as low end of Medium difficulty for a single party member. Considering a Medium encounter is defined as "has one or two scary moments for the players, but the characters should emerge victorious with no casualties," that sounds about right.



At level 6? That's... Let's call the sorcerers Mages (CR 6). A single one of them is a Deadly encounter for a two-player party of level 6. A Deadly encounter, being defined as "Survival often requires good tactics and quick thinking, and the party risks defeat," sounds like you got what you wanted out of that. Outside of that, however, you chose two extremely squishy higher-CR creatures in the sorcerers, and many of the lower-CR creatures are mooks, which could have been taken out by a single Fireball as collateral damage, and are inconsequential to the actual difficulty of the encounter in such a case. The level 5 Paladins are likely Challenge 1 or 2; the level 3 Clerics and Fighters, Challenge 1/4 to 1/2 each (it depends on what ability scores and equipment you gave them). None of them are individually threatening to such a party. Ignoring the Mages (they are way over CR) and using the lower of each figure (I'm assuming well-equipped and PC-equivalent stats on even the mooks for the higher CR estimates), every single one of those fighters from the Paladins on down, added together and multiplied by two for the number of combatants, amounts to a Medium encounter.

I feel like a reminder is prudent, at this point, to note that the DM's job isn't to kill the players, per standard CR expectations, nor is it for the DM to provide coin flip fights routinely. The CR guidelines aren't meant to dictate success probability, steeply dropping off towards zero once you move past Medium; they are essentially meant to decide risk, or how much resources are expended to succeed what is a given encounter. A Medium-level encounter should be won by any standard adventuring party, for example, and it should be won without expending significant healing or other resources, but if the party decides to nova, blowing its highest-level spell slots and long rest abilities in the first round of combat, they should destroy Medium encounters, and take Deadly encounters unexpectedly close.



Reading your actual story, it reminds me of when the group asked me to write an adventure for them to play while I was off-island. In that adventure, I had described an "overwhelming" number of Grimlocks hidden in various crevices and hidey-holes in this massive cavern, all mind controlled by brain slugs (Puppeteers from the SRD) which were being controlled by an elder host who had no specific regard for their well-being. The horde of Grimlocks was meant to choke off their exit and force them to a narrower pass, where a bridge over a cavern led to the other half of the adventure. The intent was for the party to flee the Grimlocks (which were described as a teeming mass, coming from all the walls and even the ceiling, in numbers too big to count), cross the bridge, and cut the bridge behind them (or use the bridge creatively to deter followers), and carry on with the second half of the adventure. If the party engaged the Grimlocks, they'd use horde tactics (using superior numbers to swarm, push through barriers, et cetera) and basic self-preservation, and be unable to speak or respond to communication due to the enthrall effect, but otherwise be normal Grimlocks, and pretty easily overcome them under normal conditions due to sheer numbers. When ever a Grimlock was slain, the Puppeteer was supposed to crawl forth from the body (either out the ear or mouth, or through the cavity the party carved into it) and attempt to use Psionic Charm on the nearest hostile it could see, indicating that no, this was not your ordinary "small numbers vs. big numbers" encounter, you need to be fearful for your lives.

What actually happened was that the DM described the pass itself as being conveniently exactly wide enough for the group's largest character to fit into and prevent other creatures from passing to the rest of the party behind him, and deep enough that the monsters could be funneled in one-by-one, but not so deep and narrow that multiple party members couldn't assist him from immediately behind him. Despite being described as spilling forth from the walls in my written adventure, the Grimlocks only ever engaged along the ground, single file, in a straight line. They never attempted to push their way through or shove using a bull rush, or other, similar, actions, like grappling/dog-piling on the choke point; instead, they walked up, single file, made their single attack against the one party member they could, and ended the turn. When the bodies piled up, they used their action instead to climb on top of the corpses before being slain, adding to the pile without threat. Once the pile got too tall for even the choke point member to reach, the Grimlocks helpfully began pulling bodies away from the pile so they could once again reach the party, then resumed their single-file assault, throwing themselves mindlessly into their only possible foe (and their inevitable deaths) while three party members behind him (on the tail end of the choke) used the Aid Another action to boost his AC to unhittable levels. The DM didn't even read the Puppeteer stat block or acknowledge their existence, and so zero Puppeteers crawled from their hosts and attempted to charm the party members.

Any of a number of intended interactions would have changed this encounter drastically: the pass being more than five feet wide means the party can't form an impassible choke point with their single tankiest member, but have to form a wall of multiple members with vulnerabilities that could be attacked by multiple Grimlocks; the Grimlocks traveling along the walls means they could attack from multiple angles, rather than single file along the ground; the Grimlocks using horde tactics (like using Aid Another themselves to help the front-most Grimlock bull rush the party member blockading them back to push through the barrier they had made) would have prevented a single impassible member from blocking dozens of Grimlocks; the Grimlocks exercising basic self-preservation and not charging single-file once they realized the superiority of the party's position would have prevented dozens of them from moving single-file to their deaths; the Puppeteers crawling out from their dead hosts to find new ones would have led to dozens of potential failed saves, charmed party members, potential thralls, and breaking of fortifications as the party now urgently needs to leave; and many others, any one of which would have meant a severe loss of casualties or an easily unwinnable encounter. Instead, I came home to the Grimlock Grinder.

The point of that story is: if you play creatures mind-numbingly stupid and neglect to use most of their better features, no amount of Challenge Rating will save the encounter.



It's easy to see why: if you wanted a Medium-to-Hard encounter for three level 7 PCs, you'd use three CR 2 Centaurs. (450 XP x3 = 1,350, x2 for the encounter modifier for creature numbers = 2,700 XP; Medium encounter threshold for three 7th-level adventurers is 2,250 XP, and the Hard threshold is 3,300 XP.) What you provided was massive overkill for two or three adventurers alike: 450 XP x8 = 3,600 XP, x2.5 for the encounter modifier for creature numbers = 9,000 XP; Deadly encounter threshold for three 7th-level adventurers is 5,100 XP. This is designed to be a Deadly encounter for a 10th-level party or lower, if the party is that small.

Even more important than the raw numbers (which, again, make this an overwhelmingly deadly encounter that the party should lose), do an eyeball test on the monsters here. There is a major difference between the Centaurs you are using as fodder, and the "level X PC class" humanoids you are assigning significance to, which actually are fodder: if you're building the "level X PC class" humanoids straight, then most of them will have less HP, attack bonus, damage per hit, special damage-increasing attack riders, and diversity in attack options than the Centaur. The average number of hit points on a Con 14 third-level Fighter is 24, or roughly half what the Centaur gets, and the Fighter won't have Multiattack. If you're lucky, the 5th-level Paladins you drafted up might each match one Centaur in difficulty, but possibly not, because of the lack of ranged threat. The numbers that you're using for "level X PC class" fighters are heavily against them being worth creatures half the CR you think they are, or rather, the monsters you think are fodder are actually at least twice as strong as you think they are. Or both.

In short: If your 7th-level Sorcerer throws a Fireball at the third-level Clerics and Fighters, they very likely kill all of them, without ever giving them an action, and then they only have to fight the fewer stronger creatures left. If they throw a Fireball at a group of eight Centaurs, there are no weaker creatures, and they are all as strong as the "stronger creatures left" that Sorcerer was throwing Fireballs at the first time, so now you just have eight angry, moderately wounded Centaurs.

Please please please, if you have a Dungeon Master's Guide available to you, read and understand Page 81-83 (Creating Encounters, including the "Challenge Rating" box on the bottom left of Page 82, and all tables), as well as Page 273-279 (Creating a Monster, including the "Monster Statistics by Challenge Rating" table on the bottom left of Page 274). They will do you a great service, promise.

Wow. You definitely got your 110,000 cp in. :smalleek:

Thanks for your great in-depth response! I'm sure I'll get the hang of it eventually.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Wow. You definitely got your 110,000 cp in. :smalleek:

Thanks for your great in-depth response! I'm sure I'll get the hang of it eventually.

Haha! Sorry for length. I'm always long-winded, but I also got really ranty—posted that at like 4am.

I was an early adopter of 5e after holding out in 3.5/P for several years, but I remember a lot of players at my tables struggling with certain elements of the system due to their ingrained assumptions carried over from older systems ("what do you mean, I can't fly and be invisible at the same time? How many bonus spell slots do I get? You mean my Bard 3/Rogue 1 doesn't get an ability bump?"). It takes time. You and your group will figure it out. :smallsmile:

If there's any one paragraph you take information from in that post, please focus on the last one. Those specific groups of pages are Encounter Building 101. A lot of people fail to apply the group multiplier when considering encounter difficulty, and end up trying to match the XP of the monsters to the party's encounter threshold, creating much harder encounters; or they fail to add up the encounter threshold of each party member and try to match the encounter to the threshold of a single party member, which creates much easier encounters. It really does need to be balanced around the expectations of the encounter thresholds, and if not, everything becomes much swingier. Since PC classes never have CRs or contribute to XP thresholds normally, it's best to use the CR guidelines for creating a monster to figure it out, so you don't end up with unexpectedly difficult or easy encounters.