Thematic holes in spell selection

[TurboGhast]

I've heard a lot of frustration about fire and cold getting all the love in damage spells, and that making elemental masters of other damage types a lot harder to create. That could be fixed with a bunch of homebrew spells / damage type changes, but this probably isn't the only thing that spell lists lack which gets in the way of cool character concepts.

What holes are there in 5e spell lists that make thematic characters harder to create, and what could fill those slots?

[Aett_Thorn]

I would say that more elemental spells of the non-fire/non-cold variety is one of the bigger holes, since you have a whole sub-class devoted to choosing your element, and currently a lot of them are severely lacking.

However, a few other themes that I think could use a boost:

1) Melee-oriented spells for Rangers (seriously, they can be dual-wielders, sword+board, and two-handed fighters as well, WotC)
2) Smite spells for Paladins that work at range (see point #1)
3) Charm spells that actually do something
4) Shadow Magics
5) Minion conjuration spells for Conj wizards like they have for Druids

[Iamcreative]

I would say that more elemental spells of the non-fire/non-cold variety is one of the bigger holes, since you have a whole sub-class devoted to choosing your element, and currently a lot of them are severely lacking.

However, a few other themes that I think could use a boost:

1) Melee-oriented spells for Rangers (seriously, they can be dual-wielders, sword+board, and two-handed fighters as well, WotC)
2) Smite spells for Paladins that work at range (see point #1)
3) Charm spells that actually do something
4) Shadow Magics
5) Minion conjuration spells for Conj wizards like they have for Druids

I think #2 is on purpose (since ranged pally might be to good? Idk) they want paladins to be in your face kind of deal. Although I agree with rangers, they have melee fighting styles they should get something for it.

By shadow magics do you mean like shadow conjuration from 3.x? Or just shadow-y magic. Because the shadow conj became the illusionist capstone so that probably shouldnt be a spell accesable to everyone. (Although shadow-y **** does seem to be in an ok spot too at least for warlocks)

And I kind of like that minions are a druid thing, it makes the spellcasters feel actually different rather than just have the same spells across the board.

[Tetrasodium]

I would say that more elemental spells of the non-fire/non-cold variety is one of the bigger holes, since you have a whole sub-class devoted to choosing your element, and currently a lot of them are severely lacking.

However, a few other themes that I think could use a boost:

1) Melee-oriented spells for Rangers (seriously, they can be dual-wielders, sword+board, and two-handed fighters as well, WotC)
2) Smite spells for Paladins that work at range (see point #1)
3) Charm spells that actually do something
4) Shadow Magics
5) Minion conjuration spells for Conj wizards like they have for Druids

I'm not sure if it's still the case in 5e, but in the past I believe it was because certain elements (i.e. force/acid) had almost nothing strong against them. with 5e resistance/vulnerability being a damage multiplier (damage*0.5 & damage*2) it could potentially lead to problems of some sort that range from minor & unimportant to significant & problematic. I dunno, just something to be careful of going in.

[MrStabby]

There are certain schools of spells that peter out somewhat - trying to focus on necromancy spells for example becomes hard.

Not so much a spells thing themselves but I would prefer it if clerics still got domain spells at higher levels - they feel a bit samey with all the same spells picked. Having the spells to support that would be pretty good.

[gfishfunk]

I can rationalize some of it away, but I agree with the premise.

Most elements have a level 1 version, and most level 1 spells can be cast at higher levels. Additionally, you always have chromatic orb to get a specific element, and it scales as well. Thus, you can cast an elemental spell at any spell-slot level....but that leaves a lot wanting in variety.

I know there is not a huge desire for an AoE acid or poison spell (except for me, I would like both), but we could use some more of each. I think every other level is not too greedy. Or maybe spell levels 1, 3, and 5...leaving spell levels 6-9 as more world-bending stuff.

[Rysto]

2) Smite spells for Paladins that work at range (see point #1)

Banishing Smite and Branding Smite both work with "weapon attacks" (the rest specify "melee weapon attack).

[TurboGhast]

I can rationalize some of it away, but I agree with the premise.

Most elements have a level 1 version, and most level 1 spells can be cast at higher levels. Additionally, you always have chromatic orb to get a specific element, and it scales as well. Thus, you can cast an elemental spell at any spell-slot level....but that leaves a lot wanting in variety.

I know there is not a huge desire for an AoE acid or poison spell (except for me, I would like both), but we could use some more of each. I think every other level is not too greedy. Or maybe spell levels 1, 3, and 5...leaving spell levels 6-9 as more world-bending stuff.

Yes, Chromatic Orb is a perfectly good damage spell for all the draconic elements, but relying on it to support elemental characters of those types would make them feel too similar in play.

I think it'd be possible to come up with thematic, powerful elemental spells for levels past 6. Even spells strong enough to be called "worldbending".


There are certain schools of spells that peter out somewhat - trying to focus on necromancy spells for example becomes hard.

Not so much a spells thing themselves but I would prefer it if clerics still got domain spells at higher levels - they feel a bit samey with all the same spells picked. Having the spells to support that would be pretty good.

I just noticed no Lv3 enchantment spells exist. That's a large hole in the spell list.

[SqueakyElLobo]

Always thought the Bard spell list was lacking in party buffs and other spells that would be thematic for a bard, particularly Haste and Slow.

[jleonardwv]

Touch spells. Familiars can deliver them but very few exist for wizards. Multi classing helps a little e.g. cure wounds.

Divination spells are also rare.

TBH I'd like a whole book of new spells.

[Misterwhisper]

Warlocks can cast invisibility but not detect invisibility.

Also kind of on topic, Warlocks cast all spells at max level, however Hunger of Hadar, in my opinion their best spell, does not scale with higher spell levels.

Death domain clerics can pick any necromancy cantrip... of which there are two last I checked.

Chill touch which is pretty nice and spare the dying which is well, not.

[Tetrasodium]

Warlocks can cast invisibility but not detect invisibility.

Also kind of on topic, Warlocks cast all spells at max level, however Hunger of Hadar, in my opinion their best spell, does not scale with higher spell levels.

Death domain clerics can pick any necromancy cantrip... of which there are two last I checked.

Chill touch which is pretty nice and spare the dying which is well, not.

but it saves you five whole silver!
Healer’s kit 5 gp 3 lb.
Healer’s Kit. This kit is a leather pouch containing
bandages, salves, and splints. The kit has ten uses. As
an action, you can expend one use of the kit to stabilize
a creature that has 0 hit points, without needing to make
a Wisdom (Medicine) check.

Think of all the times that it could stabilize someone bleeding to death close enough to touch while out of any spell slots capable of casting any of the healing spells your cleric took while trying to get back your possessions after waking up in prison or stabilizing someone 10 other times since you were last in a town & out of spell slots. I mean sure the group is doing something horribly wrong in either of those circumstances (probably more than one thing in fact), but think of how much you would shine!

[Cybren]

but it saves you five whole silver!
Healer’s kit 5 gp 3 lb.
Healer’s Kit. This kit is a leather pouch containing
bandages, salves, and splints. The kit has ten uses. As
an action, you can expend one use of the kit to stabilize
a creature that has 0 hit points, without needing to make
a Wisdom (Medicine) check.

Think of all the times that it could stabilize someone bleeding to death close enough to touch while out of any spell slots capable of casting any of the healing spells your cleric took while trying to get back your possessions after waking up in prison or stabilizing someone 10 other times since you were last in a town & out of spell slots. I mean sure the group is doing something horribly wrong in either of those circumstances (probably more than one thing in fact), but think of how much you would shine!

I feel like it's fair for cantrips to be little more than analogs for a piece of mundane equipment. It's basically the D&D version of a GURPS Perk. The problem comes with classes that don't get many cantrip choices so "cool/fun ability that is little more than a ribbon" competes with "the main attack I will be using if I run out of or are conserving my spell slots".

[cobaltstarfire]

Yes, Chromatic Orb is a perfectly good damage spell for all the draconic elements, but relying on it to support elemental characters of those types would make them feel too similar in play.


It also costs like 50 GP in shiny rocks to cast. I mean I suppose you have to do something with all that useless gold you'll end up rolling in....but come on! (I was going to take it to add some more lightning magic to my list, cause the character is meant to be use a lot of lightning/fire)


I wish there were more kinds of watery and earthy magics too.

[Cybren]

It also costs like 50 GP in shiny rocks to cast. I mean I suppose you have to do something with all that useless gold you'll end up rolling in....but come on! (I was going to take it to add some more lightning magic to my list, cause the character is meant to be use a lot of lightning/fire)


I wish there were more kinds of watery and earthy magics too.

You spend the 50 GP once. Material components are only consumed during casting if the spell specifies