Would this change to iterative attacks be unbalanced?

[frogglesmash]

What if we just let players make iterative attacks without the cumulative -5 penalty?

[ComaVision]

Wouldn't change a whole lot. I don't see the point though, the problem with mundanes isn't usually damage.

[OldTrees1]

What if we just let players make iterative attacks without the cumulative -5 penalty?

In my experience the -10 attacks are worth half an attack and the -15 attacks are worth little. So this change would add 0-3 attacks. However what is an extra attack worth? They already have enough damage so the benefit is from the attack replacements or other qualitative benefits from the attacks.

A Staggering Strike TWF rogue would go from 5 stagger threats to 6.
A Knockback THF fighter would go from 2.5 knocks to 4. (5.5 to 7 when you include AoOs).
So there is an improvement, but nowhere near an unbalancing improvement.

[frogglesmash]

Wouldn't change a whole lot. I don't see the point though, the problem with mundanes isn't usually damage.
Will with the default rules most of your iterative attacks miss so often they might as well not exist, so this change will make them actually be worth having at the very least.

[Grod_The_Giant]

At high-op levels, it won't change that much because anything that eats a full attack is turned to paste anyway. At lower-op levels, it's a sizable boost, because, well, a full attack still deals a lot of damage compared to, say, blasty spells. What's your table environment like?

[Zanos]

For primary melee combatants attack bonuses outscale armor class pretty hard for both the PCs and NPCs. AC really only serves as a buffer to not get power attacked at higher levels. Sure a pit fiend has 40 AC, but a high level barbarian is probably sporting a 40+ attack bonus, his primary attack isn't going to miss unless he rolls a one.

As ComaVision mentioned, mundanes being capable of dealing damage has never really been a problem.

[Gullintanni]

Will with the default rules most of your iterative attacks miss so often they might as well not exist, so this change will make them actually be worth having at the very least.

My inclination was always to apply a flat -5 to each iterative, rather than cumulative -5's. 20/15/15/15, rather than 20/20/20/20. This requires melee to be at least a little more tactical when Power Attacking.

But YMMV.

[Elkad]

Iterative penalty didn't exist in earlier editions, game worked fine.
Of course iterative attacks were strictly limited to ftr/pal/rgr too.

I don't see a problem with eliminating them. Or changing them to -2/-4/-6 instead of -5/-10/-15

[Quertus]

Heck, make it cumulative bonuses to iterative attacks for all I care.

[Dagroth]

Iterative penalty didn't exist in earlier editions, game worked fine.
Of course iterative attacks were strictly limited to ftr/pal/rgr too.

I don't see a problem with eliminating them. Or changing them to -2/-4/-6 instead of -5/-10/-15

And here I was about to suggest -3/-6/-9... :smalltongue:

[OldTrees1]

And here I was about to suggest -3/-6/-9... :smalltongue:

You silly. You two should have suggested one of
-3/-6/-9/-12/-15/-18
-2/-4/-6/-8/-10/-12/-14/-16/-18

[frogglesmash]

You silly. You two should have suggested one of
-3/-6/-9/-12/-15/-18
-2/-4/-6/-8/-10/-12/-14/-16/-18

Wait, isn't that how 3.0 monks used to work?

[Zanos]

How about -2/-3/-5/-7/-11/-13/-17/-19?

[OldTrees1]

Wait, isn't that how 3.0 monks used to work?

I think so? I think that is why they slapped monk with a 3/4ths BAB (to limit it to only 5 attacks rather than 7)


How about -2/-3/-5/-7/-11/-13/-17/-19?

Not the primes! *fakes horror*

[Metahuman1]

Not the primes! *fakes horror*


Does that mean Warfordged characters would also get The Matrix Of Leadership as well? XD!

[Zombimode]

Will with the default rules most of your iterative attacks miss so often they might as well not exist, so this change will make them actually be worth having at the very least.

This should only be true if you put absolutely no effort in building your warrior PC.

[Mendicant]

This will make AC pretty meaningless in higher-level play, but at that level it isn't making that big a difference.

[Telonius]

Archery might be a bit more viable. Melee would gain a bunch. I'm thinking a Barbarian/Fighter with Pounce. Even without extras like Cleave and Shock Trooper, this could clear out a whole squad of enemies in a single round.

[Fizban]

When your attack is enemy AC+20, your first attack hits. Your -15 iterative attack only has a 25% chance to hit. Changing that to -0 is significant, yes.

As for unbalanced, that entirely dependent on what the heck you mean by balance.