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View Full Version : D&D 5e/Next Rogue Archetype: The Lunatic(Joker/Madman)



Garresh
2017-03-03, 09:43 PM
Rogue Archetype - Lunatic

Sometimes, a hero or villain is just off. They seem to fight in an unpredictable and maddening way, confounding their enemies and confusing their allies. They frequently cast aside all concepts of safety and stability to truly commit to their own madness. These lunatics somehow survive against all odds, and seem to have some method behind their madness. Whatever their motivation, these leave chaos in their wake, and are incredibly unpredictable.

One Step Ahead:
At 3rd level, you gain proficiency with disguise kits and forgery kits.

Gambits:
At 3rd level, you gain access to several gambits. You begin with 2 gambits, and you gain one additional gambit at 7th, 11th, 15th, and 19th level. Gambits often call for saving throws. The DC of your gambit is calculated using the formula below.

Gambit Save DC = 8 + Proficiency + Charisma Mod

Reckless Counter - Whenever an enemy misses an attack against you in melee, you may grant them advantage on that attack roll. Regardless of whether their attack misses or hits, you may make use your reaction to make an attack against them.

Rolling Tumble - Whenever an enemy makes an attack against you, you may impose disadvantage on that attack. After the attack resolves, you immediately fall prone. You may only do this if you are standing. This does not use your reaction.

Boot Shiv - Whenever an enemy makes an attack against you while you are prone, you may use your reaction to make an opportunity attack against them. This attack is made at advantage(which counteracts your disadvantage from being prone), using the attributes of a mundane dagger. If the attack hits, the target has disadvantage on their attack against you(which counteracts the advantage from being prone). Once you have used this ability, you cannot do so again for 1 minute.

Who's Grabbing Who? - As an action, you may attempt to use your weight to throw a creature that is grappling you. The creature must make a strength save or be thrown, falling prone. If the creature fails its save, you may attempt to initiate a grapple as a bonus action. If the creature makes its save, it gets a free attack against you at advantage, which does not use its reaction.

Over Here - As an action, you may attempt to taunt and distract an enemy within 30 feet. The target must make a wisdom save, or become distracted. If the target fails its save, it has disadvantage on attack rolls against targets other than yourself. Regardless of whether it succeeds or fails, it has advantage on attack rolls against you. This lasts until the beginning of your next turn.

Better Outnumbered - Whenever an enemy makes an attack against you, you may use your reaction to redirect that attack to an adjacent target creature. The attacker must make a dexterity save. On a failure, the attack changes its target to the adjacent creature. The same roll is used for the redirected attack. If the enemy succeeds on its save, the attack is instead made against you at advantage.

Fools Ploy - As a reaction to being attacked, you may attempt to catch the enemy's weapon. You must not be wielding anything in your hands to use this gambit, and if you are you immediately drop whatever you are wielding. The triggering attack is made against you at advantage. After the attack resolves, the target must make a Strength save. On a failure, you twist the weapon from their grasp, disarming them and causing you to wield the weapon.

Pocket Sand - As a bonus action, you pull sand from your pocket and hurl it at an adjacent enemy’s eyes. The target must make a dexterity save. On a failure, it becomes blinded until the beginning of your next turn. If it succeeds on its save, it gets a free attack against you, which does not use its reaction. Once you have used this gambit, you cannot do so again for 1 minute.

Level 9 - Lost In Wonderland - You may drive a creature temporarily mad simply by talking to it. You spend 1 minute interacting with a creature, after which it makes a charisma saving throw. On a failure, it becomes dissociated from reality. This functions as a limited Suggestion spell(which does not require concentration)with a duration of 1 hour. During this time, the target will answer 1 yes or no question truthfully, before completely losing touch. The target then stands there for the duration, or may be told to perform an extremely simple act which does not require conscious thought until the effect ends. Targets may be told that they feel like talking a long walk, that they feel like reading a book, or that they feel like making camp. Any suggestion more complicated than moving to another location results in them getting ready to perform the task, then simply standing or sitting there for the duration. The target may open a book and then sit there for an hour, or pull out a tent and stakes only to space out for the duration. The target may be forcefully shaken out of its stupor by another creature as an action, or by being faced with a threatening situation. Any damage taken immediately ends the effect. After the stupor wears off, the target has only a vague recollection of what happened. It remembers talking to someone(but not who), and then a feeling of waking up some time later. After using this ability, you cannot do so again until you finish a long rest.

Level 13 - Unnerving Laughter - As an action, you begin to laugh maniacally. Each hostile creature within 30 feet must make a wisdom saving throw, or become frightened of you for one minute. Once you have used this ability, you cannot do so again until you finish a long rest.

Level 17 - A Truly Stupid Idea - You coat yourself in a tarry liquid which evaporates into a flammable gas. As a bonus action, you may light yourself on fire. At the end of each of your turns, you take 1d10 fire damage. Any creature that makes a melee attack against you suffers 2d10 fire damage, and makes its attack at disadvantage. Additionally, any creature which starts its turn in melee range suffers 2d10 fire damage as well. Your melee attacks inflict an extra 2d10 fire damage. This effect lasts 1 minute, but can be ended early by spending an action to douse the flames while falling prone. Once you have used this ability, you cannot do so again until you have finished a long rest.

Garresh
2017-03-03, 09:55 PM
Looking for any feedback.

JNAProductions
2017-03-03, 11:33 PM
...

12 minutes. You double posted after 12 minutes. Dude, classes can go quite a while before getting feedback.

Overall, seems okayish, but having the gambits all be at-will seems a bit much.

Garresh
2017-03-04, 12:40 AM
Apologies. I usually post this on every forum and subreddit where it is appropriate. Getting feedback on homebrews is hard, and people usually have little interest in other people's creations, so I try to maximize visibility.

Garresh
2017-03-04, 12:36 PM
Update: I'm going to be removing the level 9 ability as it isn't very thematic, and replacing it with a non-combat ability which causes a target to fall into a stupor for an hour, during which they sit unaware of their environment, or wander aimlessly. After it ends, they have no memory of the missing time. Thinking name will be something like "Lost in Wonderland".

Mourne
2017-03-04, 01:25 PM
Gambits:At 3rd level, you gain access to several gambits. You begin with 3 gambits, and you gain one additional gambit at 6th, 9th, 12th, 15th, and 18th level. Gambits often call for saving throws. The DC of your gambit is calculated using the formula below, using your choice of either your Strength or Dexterity.

Rogue archetypes typically have two features at level 3: one for a skill/tool based feature and one to set the theme for the archetype.

As for Gambit itself, being able to perform these (the ones you know) at will seems off. For instance, Battlemaster maneuvers, which gambits seem to be roughly based upon, are limited in use by a set number of superiority dice. I’m not sure what resource these should be based off of, but maybe something along the lines of: You can use your gambits a number of times equal to your (attribute) modifier (minimum of one). You regain any expended uses when you complete a short or long rest.

I think, without capping the uses, this archetype would be using a gambit on every turn (sometimes twice a turn with reactions). Maybe this is the intent?


Reckless Counter - Whenever an enemy attacks you in melee, you may grant them advantage on that attack roll. Regardless of whether their attack misses or hits, you may make use your reaction to make an attack against them.

Perhaps clean up the wording a little on this one: As a reaction, whenever an enemy attacks you with a melee weapon, you can grant them advantage on the attack and immediately make a melee attack against the same foe.

This one is sort of sneaky powerful as it could easily grant the Rogue an easily triggered extra use of their Sneak Attack each round (remember, Sneak Attack is limited to once per turn but not capped per round, so a reaction attack outside your turn can trigger Sneak Attack as long as the conditions are satisfied).


Rolling Tumble - Whenever an enemy makes an attack against you, you may impose disadvantage on that attack. After the attack resolves, you immediately fall prone. You may only do this if you are standing. This does not use your reaction.

Alone, this is not great but it seems an “opener” for a number of the other gambits.


Boot Shiv - Whenever an enemy makes an attack against you while you are prone, you may use your reaction to make an opportunity attack against them. This attack is made at advantage(which counteracts your disadvantage from being prone), and deals sneak attack damage if it hits. If the attack hits, the target has disadvantage on their attack against you(which counteracts the advantage from being prone). Once you have used this ability, you cannot do so again for 1 minute.

I’d let the stated requirements of Sneak Attack determine whether this allows Sneak Attack or not rather than just stating it. It’s already a “chain” with Rolling Tumble that sets you up for an additional (potential) use of Sneak Attack during the round.


Who's Grabbing Who? - As an action, you may attempt to use your weight to throw a creature that is grappling you. The creature must make a strength save or be thrown, falling prone. If the creature fails its save, you may attempt to initiate a grapple as a bonus action. If the creature makes its save, it gets an opportunity attack against you at advantage.

A contested check (as per escaping a grapple) might be more appropriate here than a saving throw. Also, "forcing" an enemy to use their reaction is strange… especially if it’s not in their best interest do so at that time (for example, forcing a foe to reaction attack after this means no more opportunity attacks for them).



Better Outnumbered - Whenever an enemy makes an attack against you, you may use your reaction redirect that attack to an adjacent target creature. The attacker must make a dexterity save. On a failure, the attack changes its target to the adjacent creature. The attack is rerolled against the target creature. If the enemy succeeds on its save, the attack is instead made against you at advantage.

A lot of extra rolling. Table slow downs are usually frowned upon.


Fools Ploy - As a reaction to being attacked, you may attempt to catch the enemy's weapon. You must not be wielding anything in your hands to use this gambit, and if you are you immediately drop whatever you are wielding. The triggering attack is made against you at advantage. Regardless of whether it succeeds or fails, the target must make a Strength save. On a failure, you twist the weapon from their grasp, disarming them and causing you to wield the weapon.

I don’t think this one quite works (though I probably overcomplicated it in my head). A foe makes an attacks (rolls to hit), you use a reaction to “catch the weapon”, the foe attempts save…but wait, the original attack, due to you using Fool’s Ploy, turns into advantage. Does the foe then reroll the original attack and the process repeats or is the DM required to always give away when a creature is going to attack you in case you want to use Fool’s Ploy (so they don’t waste an initial roll not at advantage)?

Also, what's the point in granting the advantage if they have to make the single save regardless? At that point, it doesn't matter how many dice the foe gets to roll as it's really about the saving throw.

I think this would be much cleaner to just simply allow the Disarm action (DMG, p. 271) as a bonus action or a reaction.



Unnerving Laughter - As an action, you may cause any number of hostile targets within 30 feet to make a wisdom save. On a failure, they become frightened until the beginning of your next turn. Attacks against you by creatures who are not frightened are made at advantage until the beginning of your next turn. This gambit cannot affect creatures that are immune to charms. You cannot use this ability unless you have no allies within 30 feet, and at least 3 hostile creatures within 30 feet.

Unlimited use of the fear spell essentially. Use Cunning Action for bonus action Dash to setup up range conditions, fire off action and fear an entire group (no limit on number of foes affected). Use Rolling Tumble if attacked (no reaction required) and Boot Shiv any attacker with your reaction for Sneak Attack damage.



Level 9 - Against All Odds - Whenever an enemy makes an opportunity attack against you, or makes an attack with advantage, you have resistance to any bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage inflicted by that attack.

This is normally the Rogue archetype level for a utility feature. I’m not sure if this is “balanced” at all (even with the limiting conditions) but given that most of your gambits grant advantage on attacks against you as a downside, the synergy probably makes this too much (you essentially have a barbarian’s rage damage resistance at all times, as you’ll always be using gambits as they are unlimited).

Also, thematically… I just don’t understand how this ties in to the whole Lunatic/Joker/Madman theme.


Level 13 - Safety is Boring - Whenever you make a weapon attack, it is a critical hit on an 18, 19, or 20. Whenever an enemy attacks you with a weapon, it is a critical hit on an 18, 19, or 20.

This is just too much. A Rogue going from a 5% for a critical with Sneak Attack to 15% is huge. I’d gladly trade allowing a goblin a better chance to crit me with their measly weapon to greatly increasing my chance to crit Sneak Attack the boss.


Level 13 - Hard to Kill - Whenever you are knocked unconscious, you immediately stabilize. After you have benefited from this, you may not do so again until you finish a long rest. Additionally, taking damage equal to negative your hit point maximum causes a single failed death save, instead of killing you outright.

Why the two features at level 13?


Level 17 - A Truly Stupid Idea - You coat yourself in a tarry liquid which evaporates into a flammable gas. As a bonus action, you may light yourself on fire. At the end of each of your turns, you take 1d6 fire damage. Any creature that makes a melee attack against you suffers 2d10 fire damage, and makes its attack at disadvantage. Additionally, any creature which starts its turn in melee range suffers 2d10 fire damage as well. Your melee attacks inflict an extra 2d10 fire damage. This effect lasts 1 minute, but can be ended early by spending an action to douse the flames while falling prone. Once you have used this ability, you cannot do so again until you have finished a long rest.

Does the initial “coating” use any type of action? If it evaporates into a gas, why doesn't it just dissipate -- how does it remain in your "orbit"? Why the d6 versus d10 damages (seems odd)?

Overall, it’s interesting and has potential. Modular rogues seem to be something that is en vogue currently so you're on the right track.

My basic opinion: I’m not sure there’s really an overall unifying theme (and nothing screams madman or lunatic to me… more like masochist) and the balance seems to be off (on the high side). Also, it's all about combat... no features to improve exploration, social interactions, or any other utility.

Garresh
2017-03-04, 02:35 PM
Rogue archetypes typically have two features at level 3: one for a skill/tool based feature and one to set the theme for the archetype.

As for Gambit itself, being able to perform these (the ones you know) at will seems off. For instance, Battlemaster maneuvers, which gambits seem to be roughly based upon, are limited in use by a set number of superiority dice. I’m not sure what resource these should be based off of, but maybe something along the lines of: You can use your gambits a number of times equal to your (attribute) modifier (minimum of one). You regain any expended uses when you complete a short or long rest.

I think, without capping the uses, this archetype would be using a gambit on every turn (sometimes twice a turn with reactions). Maybe this is the intent?



Perhaps clean up the wording a little on this one: As a reaction, whenever an enemy attacks you with a melee weapon, you can grant them advantage on the attack and immediately make a melee attack against the same foe.

This one is sort of sneaky powerful as it could easily grant the Rogue an easily triggered extra use of their Sneak Attack each round (remember, Sneak Attack is limited to once per turn but not capped per round, so a reaction attack outside your turn can trigger Sneak Attack as long as the conditions are satisfied).



Alone, this is not great but it seems an “opener” for a number of the other gambits.



I’d let the stated requirements of Sneak Attack determine whether this allows Sneak Attack or not rather than just stating it. It’s already a “chain” with Rolling Tumble that sets you up for an additional (potential) use of Sneak Attack during the round.



A contested check (as per escaping a grapple) might be more appropriate here than a saving throw. Also, "forcing" an enemy to use their reaction is strange… especially if it’s not in their best interest do so at that time (for example, forcing a foe to reaction attack after this means no more opportunity attacks for them).




A lot of extra rolling. Table slow downs are usually frowned upon.



I don’t think this one quite works (though I probably overcomplicated it in my head). A foe makes an attacks (rolls to hit), you use a reaction to “catch the weapon”, the foe attempts save…but wait, the original attack, due to you using Fool’s Ploy, turns into advantage. Does the foe then reroll the original attack and the process repeats or is the DM required to always give away when a creature is going to attack you in case you want to use Fool’s Ploy (so they don’t waste an initial roll not at advantage)?

Also, what's the point in granting the advantage if they have to make the single save regardless? At that point, it doesn't matter how many dice the foe gets to roll as it's really about the saving throw.

I think this would be much cleaner to just simply allow the Disarm action (DMG, p. 271) as a bonus action or a reaction.




Unlimited use of the fear spell essentially. Use Cunning Action for bonus action Dash to setup up range conditions, fire off action and fear an entire group (no limit on number of foes affected). Use Rolling Tumble if attacked (no reaction required) and Boot Shiv any attacker with your reaction for Sneak Attack damage.




This is normally the Rogue archetype level for a utility feature. I’m not sure if this is “balanced” at all (even with the limiting conditions) but given that most of your gambits grant advantage on attacks against you as a downside, the synergy probably makes this too much (you essentially have a barbarian’s rage damage resistance at all times, as you’ll always be using gambits as they are unlimited).

Also, thematically… I just don’t understand how this ties in to the whole Lunatic/Joker/Madman theme.



This is just too much. A Rogue going from a 5% for a critical with Sneak Attack to 15% is huge. I’d gladly trade allowing a goblin a better chance to crit me with their measly weapon to greatly increasing my chance to crit Sneak Attack the boss.



Why the two features at level 13?



Does the initial “coating” use any type of action? If it evaporates into a gas, why doesn't it just dissipate -- how does it remain in your "orbit"? Why the d6 versus d10 damages (seems odd)?

Overall, it’s interesting and has potential. Modular rogues seem to be something that is en vogue currently so you're on the right track.

My basic opinion: I’m not sure there’s really an overall unifying theme (and nothing screams madman or lunatic to me… more like masochist) and the balance seems to be off (on the high side). Also, it's all about combat... no features to improve exploration, social interactions, or any other utility.

Thanks for the feedback. I'm scrapping the level 9 power and the level 13 hard to kill ability. I'll be cleaning up the abilities as well, and probably nerfing the fear effect. On a different note, do you think if the opportunity attack granted was replaced with a free attack that does *not* use a reaction, it would be better balanced?

Also, there is precedent for saving throw vs contested rolls with the battlemaster trip attack. Also, rogues get expertise which makes keying it off athletics a dangerous synergy I wanted to avoid. A DC of 19 is a lot weaker than an opposed roll with +17. Best to avoid that "exploit". Anyways I'm gonna make the abilities key off of Charisma.

But the idea is that if we remove the downsides like requiring an opportunity attack to punish, then using the abilities has no cooldown or limitations, but *always* has a not insignificant chance of backfiring or harming the user. Also good point on boot shiv. I'll remove the guaranteed sneak attack.

On that note, the level 13 may have to get scrapped as well. It definitely is a very weak downside when facing goblins and mooks, but against big bads it can get you dropped almost instantly, as it can easily bump you up to taking damage in the range of 8d12 on a single hit around level 10. Still, the threat of too much damage is a good point. I'll need to figure something else out.

Anyways, as for it lacking thematics, I guess that's a matter of taste. The gambits certainly feel chaotic, unpredictable, and a little bit crazy. Everything else needs significant work. Oh also, the disarm ability is designed that the disarm happens *after* the attack resolves. I envision the gambit as essentially jumping *into* the enemy blade and wresting it from the enemy's hand while its still inside them. I'll clarify this, but would this interpretation function okay? The idea was casting aside self-preservation to grab at the enemy's weapon.

Garresh
2017-03-04, 02:37 PM
Oh and while I'm at it I'm giving them proficiency in forgery and disguise kits at 3 to make them have some utility. Essentially walking the balance between genius and insanity, much like the Joker himself who seems to have no problem slipping through defenses and causing trouble.

Edit: Hm. I'm thinking maybe use the Fear effect to level 13, make ir a bit stronger, and once per long rest. That gives a thematic level 13 ability, "nerfs" the at will fear effect, and makes a more reasonable progression.

Garresh
2017-03-06, 12:32 AM
Updated with balance changes and some reworks.