[PF] Infinite free crafting, does this work

[Azoth]

Okay, while I was working on a build I got to thinking about something. The basic premise is that you are a 14th level full arcane caster. The important part of your build is that at levels 6 and 7 you took two levels of Soul Drinker.

At level 14 your WBL is 185,000 gp. You will be spending 3k on a scroll of Create Demiplane and 20k to permanency it to have a safe place for the magic to happen. You still have 162,000 left.

You will spend 4k to make a Simulacrum of a Lilitu Demon. Then spend 3500gp a pop for Simulacrum of yourself. For safety's sake let's make 2. So 11k on Simulacrum's. You still have 151,000 gp left.

It will cost 1400gp to do a retraining feat flip. 700gp to retrain a good feat to a crafting feat, and 700gp to get your good feat back. Let's say you do this twice, once for each Simulacrum. 2800 gp spent. 148,300gp left.

Now that prep work is done, you are ready to craft for free. Since your Simulacrum are essentially Wizard5/Soul Drinker 2, they have a Soul Pool of 1+Int mod. So typical Wizard starts with 20 Int +2 lvls +4 Profane (Lilitu)=26Int or +8 mod. The Soul Pool is 9 points. Each point is worth a Basic Soul or 100GP of crafting. Each Simulacrum also has a Cacodaemon familiar that can create a Soul Gem when an enemy dies.

Your two Wizard Simulacra and Lilitu Demon can fight and kill any number of 1HD creatures called with Lesser Planar Binding. After the first 2, your Cacodaemon Familiars are tapped for soulstone harvesting, but you can always use Create Soul Gem (lvl 3 spell) to generate more soul stones.

Now to fill your Soul Pool reliably while squishy and trapped in a pocket dimension. The easiest method is to cycle Summon Monster 1 for horses. Use your negative energy touch attack to give it two negative levels and kill it. Spend 1 Soul Point and refresh your spell slot. Rinse and repeate until your Soul Pools are full.

So at the end of an average day, your simulacra have done 1000gp progress on two different magical items, and nested you 8 Soul Gems worth 100gp each by using 1 1st level, 4 lvl3, and 1 5th level slot each. This costs you 200gp/day in gems worth 25gp each. With a 600gp/day profit you can surely think of some fun things to do.

Now, is my logic right, and this works by RAW?

[Coidzor]

The only glaring flaw I see offhand is trying to get souls from summoned creatures.

[Azoth]

Using Planar Binding is a calling effect, not a summoning effect, so the outsider is actually there in full physical/spiritual form to be killed and harvested.

Getting the Soul Points off of Summon Monster horses, should be legal. All that is required is to use your negative level touch attack on a living creature. I can see some wiggle room for trying to say a creature brought forth by Conjuration (summoning) isn't alive, since it isn't the actual creature.

[Coidzor]

Ah, I misread you as trying to create soul gems from summoned monsters. :smallredface:

[Azoth]

No, though I did just realize, Lesser Planar Binding is beyond a 7th level Simulacrum. I brain farted and thought they had 5th level spells instead of 4th level.

Back to the drawing board for a Conjuration (calling) spell. My best thought is to use Bind Sage since it doesn't say the creature poofs if attacked. Just that it will only answer questions, and refuses all other tasks. The Simulacra Lilitu should average 75 damage in a full attack against it (only misses if it rolls a 2 or less), so the two Wizards should be able to finish it off with a Magic Missile each. So it is still a safe way to harvest soul stones with the Cacodaemon Familiars.

Since Caulborne are CR7 you might be able to argue that they are the next grade up from basic souls, which are worth 500gp a pop. If so, you can bankroll them and use a soul gem made from Create Soul Gem for crafting. That would then give you 1400gp/day in soul gems sticking to the same formula. Now if they use all 3 4th level slots each that is 1500/simulacra/day or 3000gp from simulacra and 1000/day Cacodaemon. Use the 4th 3rd level slot on Create Soul Gem for crafting. This gives you a 4k/day for 200gp/day. So 3800GP/day in Soul Gem profits.

In just under 10 days you recoup your initial investment. After that you could make a new Simulacra and do a feat swap with two days income and still come out with a profit. 7600 soul gems -3500 Simulacra -2800 feat flip =1300gp profit. This just gets worse from here of course.

[Serafina]

Even assuming it works, at this point the GM should really say "okay, you're depopulating an entire ecosystem, the extraplanar equivalent of a Druid pops in on your to stop you" (or some equivalent faction).
That's not even arbitrary - either you're using tons of animals, or you're capturing tons of intelligent being, and someone is bound to take notice and care.

[Azoth]

I wouldn't be surprised if a DM did drop a Planar Druid or some other non-Evil Outsider to stop this from happening if someone did it in game.

This entire thing is a thought exercise really. It came about while I was working on a Wizard based hit man/assassin style build. I was screwing around with Soul Gems because the idea of hauling Medusa brand lawn ornaments didn't seem tasteful. Contract killing people and dropping their crystalized souls into a Desecrated shrine seemed sure enough to stop most forms of resurection.

Then since evil hitman trafficking souls, why not make Simulacra of Succubi and Lilitu demons so they won't take away Profane bonus's to stats on a whim.

Now there are things that need to be hard to access, so most hiding places on the Prime Meterial are too easily accessed, so personal demiplane it is.

I was also lamenting being feat strapped and unable to reasonably afford crafting feats. Some things are nice, but paying retail for them is a pain.

Throw all those thoughts in a blender, set to purée, and voilà! The current method of unlimited free crafting you see before you.

Really, if you just spend another 8k on two +2Int headbands the Soul Pools would be large enough to craft from just by being P.E.T.A.'s worst nightmare.

[Psyren]

The issue is that you're asking if something that requires GM approval at several stages works by RAW. Permanency on your demiplane for instance explicitly requires GM approval, as does finding a place that sells scrolls of 8th-level spells, as does your Lilitu simulacrum having the specific abilities you want it to have, as does the draining summoned horses thing etc.

Yeah it can all theoretically work - but thought experiments like this usually assume a passive GM as opposed to a favorable one, if that makes sense.

[Azoth]

Permanent on Create Demiplane does not require GM approval.


You can make this spell permanent with the permanency spell, at a cost of 20,000 gp. If you have cast create demiplane multiple times to enlarge the demiplane, each casting’s area requires its own permanency spell.

The Lilitu Demons Profane Pact ability is bog standard to all of them. It isn't inherently crucial to the trick, but instead speeds up soul point/soul gem harvesting. It is nice, but not necessary.

I work under the assumption this works based on a ruling that you can gain a Profane Gift from a Succubi Simulacrum. It came from a thread discussing making a Succubi Simulacrum, and then Flesh to Stoning the Simulacrum so that you could not lose the Profane Gift. The devs came out and said you could do this, but it would be a massively Chaotic Evil act. So, if a 4HD succubi can give a +2, no reason an 8HD Lilitu can not give a +4.


The Soul Pool ability of Soul Drinker states:


A souleater gains 1 soul point for each negative level bestowed by her energy drain, but only if the target’s soul qualifies as at least an “animal spirit” with Hit Dice equal to or greater than the souleater’s class level.

Last I checked, a horse has 2HD, the same as the Simulacrum's Soul Eater level, and is an animal. That means it qualifies as a target with a soul that meets the "animal spirit" qualifier. The only argument against this is if you want to say a summoned creature doesn't have a soul. If a summoned creature doesn't have a soul, then that means you can not Magic Jar or Marionette Possession them...and neither spell calls summons out as invalid targets.

[Psyren]

The devs came out and said you could do this, but it would be a massively Chaotic Evil act. So, if a 4HD succubi can give a +2, no reason an 8HD Lilitu can not give a +4.

Do you have the source for this? I'm curious around any kind of official clarifications on Simulacrum (and context for same.)



Last I checked, a horse has 2HD, the same as the Simulacrum's Soul Eater level, and is an animal. That means it qualifies as a target with a soul that meets the "animal spirit" qualifier. The only argument against this is if you want to say a summoned creature doesn't have a soul. If a summoned creature doesn't have a soul, then that means you can not Magic Jar or Marionette Possession them...and neither spell calls summons out as invalid targets.

What matters is not whether they have a soul, but the value of that soul, which is explicitly up to GM discretion. The exact quote for your "animal spirit" qualifier is as follows:

"While the value of souls is as relative as any other commodity, and pricing can fluctuate wildly based on an endless parade of factors, presented here are some basic categories. With each of these, it’s important to note that these are guidelines only, and individual spirits may fall lower (such as a dragon slain young, or a king whose general lack of ambition kept him from great deeds) or higher (a commoner of exceptional piety, or one who never had the chance to fully explore her exceptional abilities) than one might expect. These prices are based upon the supply and demand commonly faced by traders upon the planes where such commodities prove far less outlandish than on the Material Plane, where prices might increase by 10 times or more (though such has no effect on their value when put to use; see below). As with anything else, the exact value of a soul is ultimately up to GM discretion. It’s also worth noting that, while trading spirits may prove lucrative, the practice is undeniably evil and an affront to the natural order, and thus carries great consequences in the afterlife."

As the quality is dependent on supply and demand, I would argue that summoned souls have no value at all - after all, even Adepts can churn out a limitless supply over time. In any event, your GM has to agree with your assessment of their category.

Even if they agree with you that summoned souls have value, we go right back to Serafina's point - either the souls don't matter and it doesn't work, or they do, and your depopulation engine will eventually attract notice. In general, if you can ask the question "why hasn't anyone else in the multiverse done this yet" - chances are there's a good reason, both mechanically and in terms of fluff.

[Azoth]

The qualification of an Animal Spirit


Animal Spirits (25 gp): This category contains creatures of animal-level intelligence, whose spirits—while presumably worth something to some deities, as reflected by the value of animal sacrifice—are rarely traded in the soul markets. In fact, though the existence of animal spirits is undeniably real, there’s rampant debate in many societies over whether such things truly count as “souls.”

Also in your own quote:
These prices are based upon the supply and demand commonly faced by traders upon the planes where such commodities prove far less outlandish than on the Material Plane, where prices might increase by 10 times or more (though such has no effect on their value when put to use; see below)

Your determinate market value means nothing when they are being used for Magic Item crafting or as spell components.

Not that that matters much as the trick doesn't use the horse to make soul gems, but instead to feed his Soul Pool. So the only definition that matters is that the animal qualifies as an "Animal Spirit" or better.

Now onto the Simulacrum trick. I am at work at the moment, but am trying to dig through Paizo's website to find the thread.

[Psyren]

The qualification of an Animal Spirit

That section comes after the part I quoted about them being guidelines and requiring GM determination.



Your determinate market value means nothing when they are being used for Magic Item crafting or as spell components.

But it does matter for what category they get placed in, and the category matters for your ability.

[Azoth]

The entire section you are quoting pertains to Market Value, not soul category. Hell, in between your emphasis points it states on the Prime Material Plane Soul Gems can and do go for 10X their market value. Taking that to its limits, as a player I could demand somewhere or someone in your setting pay me 1000GP for a bog standard Common Soul whose baseline value is 100gp. After all, that section is just as relevant as your assertion that you can set the price of a horse's soul to 0 and remove it's placement in any established Soul Gem grade.

Even then, you were talking earlier about Passive vs Permissive DMs. Your assertion that a summoned creature's soul fits no defined category without any RAW to support it aside Rule 0 says so, is pretty far from Passive.

I have shown you multiple points of RAW to support a summoned Horse meets the criteria of having a Soul, and that that soul is by definition an Animal Soul, so that it works. Your only counter to an effectively infinite Soul Pool is, "As DM I say summoned creature's souls are worth 0GP and, that they do not fit any category of Soul whatsoever so you can not use then to fuel a Soul Pool."

[Psyren]

The entire section you are quoting pertains to Market Value, not soul category.

No - "With each of these" refers to the categories, and then specifies they are guidelines only.


Even then, you were talking earlier about Passive vs Permissive DMs. Your assertion that a summoned creature's soul fits no defined category without any RAW to support it aside Rule 0 says so, is pretty far from Passive.

Ordinarily I would agree with you, but by specifically calling them guidelines, GM adjudication is invited - just like the "guidelines" for custom item creation.

[Coidzor]

Permanent on Create Demiplane does not require GM approval.



The Lilitu Demons Profane Pact ability is bog standard to all of them. It isn't inherently crucial to the trick, but instead speeds up soul point/soul gem harvesting. It is nice, but not necessary.

I work under the assumption this works based on a ruling that you can gain a Profane Gift from a Succubi Simulacrum. It came from a thread discussing making a Succubi Simulacrum, and then Flesh to Stoning the Simulacrum so that you could not lose the Profane Gift. The devs came out and said you could do this, but it would be a massively Chaotic Evil act. So, if a 4HD succubi can give a +2, no reason an 8HD Lilitu can not give a +4.


The Soul Pool ability of Soul Drinker states:



Last I checked, a horse has 2HD, the same as the Simulacrum's Soul Eater level, and is an animal. That means it qualifies as a target with a soul that meets the "animal spirit" qualifier. The only argument against this is if you want to say a summoned creature doesn't have a soul. If a summoned creature doesn't have a soul, then that means you can not Magic Jar or Marionette Possession them...and neither spell calls summons out as invalid targets.

Make a Trompe L'oeil (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/trompe-l-oeil-cr-1/) of a Lilitu so it has your alignment. Then it's just a massively NE act. :smallamused:

[Azoth]

Nice Coidzor.

Alright Psyren, glad to know your reading is "Whatever invalidates my player's ability is the reading I will use.". Seriously, next thing you know anything that was made with Continual Flame from a bound creature will have a market value of 0 because the merchants all somehow know it was made for free with a filthy SLA.

[Psyren]

EDIT: Not worth it, I've said my peace. Enjoy your thread sir.

[Azoth]

Psyren, I do apologize for being a bit more venomous than I intended to be.

I just envisioned a DM following your train of thought to say that a player trying to sell any item that was not an Everburning Torch, but was made by using Continual Flame on an item had a Market Value of 0 GP. Technically within their right as a DM, as the guidelines would say to price it as a similar item, but are just "guidelines".

You also tried to say the Demiplane couldn't be permanencied without DM approval (when it can), or that an 8th level spell on a scroll doesn't necessarily exist even though it's value is low enough to be found in settlements of several sizes (small town or larger specifically, so any settlement with already 201 residents). You came into this with the assertion that the entire trick didn't work by RAW at any step. That did not help matters.

I would like it if we could put aside our bad impressions/tempers and continue discussing if the trick works, or ways to fix the parts that do not work solidly by RAW so that they do. I would like for this to be a civil evaluation and evolution of an idea.

[Manyasone]

...You also tried to say the Demiplane couldn't be permanencied without DM approval (when it can), or that an 8th level spell on a scroll doesn't necessarily exist even though it's value is low enough to be found in settlements of several sizes (small town or larger specifically, so any settlement with already 201 residents). You came into this with the assertion that the entire trick didn't work by RAW at any step. That did not help matters...

To be fair, 8th lvl spell scrolls need to be written by 15th lvl wizards. Those don't really grow on trees. So, RAW aside, that does need to be run by the DM as well.

[Azoth]

Okay, since the 8th level scroll is a hangup for people, wait 1 more level. So you are level 15, and cast Create Demiplane from one of your 8th level spell slots. This doesn't change the math for your Simulacrum, as 1/2 of 15 is 7.5 round down to 7.

A flaw that I noticed while reworking everything was that summoning a 2HD creature with SM1, give just enough Soul Points to refresh the slot without further filling the pool. This is a problem unfortunately.

So, we need to get a total number of HD worth of creatures equal to at least (2Xspell level)+1.

If you aren't a summoning focused build it will require a bit more retraining for your Simulacrum. You will need to retrain 4 feats so 1400gp X 4 feats =5600 GP. This will get you Spell Focus (Conjuration), Augment Summoning, Superior Summoning, & the crafting feat of your choice.

Best option I found is to use Summon Monster 3 to summon 1d4+2 Ponies. This gives an average of 4.5 Ponies at 2HD each so 9 Soul Points per spell slot on average. It will cost 6 Soul Points to refresh the slot, meaning an average net gain of 3 Soul Points per casting. The summons only last for 6 rounds (unless you are a Conjuration specialist Wizard or you use another way to extend the duration), which is just long enough to gain enough Soul Point than needed to refresh the spell slot. Your second Simulacrum needs to be on standby to start harvesting Soul Points from the excess HD of creatures.

The two will need to work in tandem to refill their Soul Pools. Simulacrum A summons ponies with Summon Monster 3, if more than 3 appear Simulacrum B drains the extra ponies. When Simulacrum B's Soul Pool is full, he casts Summon Monster 3 and Simulacrum A drains any extra ponies that appear.


Trying it at Summon Monster 2 is a bit risky, and I can't recommend it unless your DM rules that Superior Summons gives you 1d3+1 from the Summon Monster 1 list and not only the +1 when you roll a 2 or 3 on the D3.

This does also change the math slightly on Soul Stone daily yields. Unfortunately, having only 3rd level spell slots means that the simulacra can't cast Summon Sage. You are stuck doing the tandem Soul Pool to cast Create Soul Gem, and then spend 5 Soul Points to fill it with a Basic Soul equivalent.

Now, some math time. Your Simulacra will need 8 hours to rest, 8 hours to craft, and 1 hour to prep spells (if you didn't take Fast Study at Wizard 5). That leaves 7 hours to generate Souls. Casting Summon Monster 3 will take 1 round, and it will take 6 rounds to drain the ponies. So 7 round cycles to generate an average of 9 Soul Points or 3 Soul Point profit. It will take 6 Soul Points to refresh Create Soul Gem, and 5 to fill it for 11 points total. It will take an average of 4 rounds to generate this. We will assume that during the casting of spells the other Simulacrum is refreshing the expended spell slot.

This means we can safely assume that every 11 rounds your Simulacrum can create 1 Soul Gem housing a Basic Soul. 7 hours is 420 minutes which is 4200 rounds. 4200/11=381.81=381X100=38,100GP worth of souls per day. 381X25=9,525GP in gem costs. This yields 28,575GP in profit per day.

Now, they can craft any item with a SpellCraft DC of 7 ranks +3 class skill +8 intelligence modifier +5 Crafter's Fortune +10 taking 10= 33. With a DC of 5+CL+(5X# of missing prerequisites) don't expect too many great items outside of consumables without a little investment. If you have them craft Headbands of Vast Intelligence +6 for themselves (DC18 for them to craft) raises it to DC36 that they can create. Add on Gloves of Elvenkind (DC28 for them to craft) and they hit a DC41 SpellCraft check to make an item. To make both items will take the Simulacra 40 days per set. I recommend only going this far for Craft Wondrous Item and Craft Arms and Armor. Most consumables: scrolls, wands, potions, even Metamagic gems will be able to be crafted by Taking 10.

This assumes only 2 Simulacra working in concert with one another. Another added benefit of this method is that by only using Summon Monster to generate your targets, you are not actually killing any creatures. This should keep you off of most radars of Powers That Be, as long as you don't go doing anything too flashy with them.

Now, my final caveat on this trick. All of this assumes that your DM does not outright ban Simulacrum or Create Demiplane. It also assumes a DM is passive enough to not change the value of the souls of summoned creatures so as to disqualify them as souls usable by Soul Drinker's Energy Drain and Soul Pool abilities. It also assumes the retraining rules are in play and used in their unaltered form in the game, as well as a steady supply of gems worth 25gp.