Questions over Paladin Combat Modifiers

[Dappershire]

So, Flanking: I was wondering the other night if Paladins could even participate in this?
Obviously I expect alot of comments about Code of Ethics being more of a suggestion, ask your DM, etc.
But Assuming you take the Code seriously, would Flanking compromise it? Sure, Its not a gross violation, insta-fall; But would it be considered attacking someone from behind/helping someone else do so?
Or is flanking more of a "The enemy knows we are both here, he can see us both, he just has trouble keeping up with us both." Viola, no violation.

Also, Coup de Grace: for obvious reasons. Helpless enemies are helpless.

Thoughts?

[Vizzerdrix]

Wait, Im confused. How did the pally even get into combat without already have fallen?

How did he even eat breakfast without fallen, for that matter?:smallconfused:

[Dagroth]

So, Flanking: I was wondering the other night if Paladins could even participate in this?
Obviously I expect alot of comments about Code of Ethics being more of a suggestion, ask your DM, etc.
But Assuming you take the Code seriously, would Flanking compromise it? Sure, Its not a gross violation, insta-fall; But would it be considered attacking someone from behind/helping someone else do so?
Or is flanking more of a "The enemy knows we are both here, he can see us both, he just has trouble keeping up with us both." Viola, no violation.

Also, Coup de Grace: for obvious reasons. Helpless enemies are helpless.

Thoughts?

Flanking is fine. He's not a Knight (the class) after all.

Coup de Grace is a big no-no... except in the case of truly "evil" (in-game definition) enemies like Demons & Devils.

Edit: Easiest way to avoid this? Hit so hard your enemies just die, rather than simply fall down.

[Dappershire]

Well, the common scene is watching a Paladin stand strong against the horde. Fighting a doomed battle, outnumbered but never outclassed.
But asking what happens when a Paladin outnumbers the enemy is a legit question. Sometimes its a "Lesser of evils" answer. Mad wizard needs to be smote...smitten...slain, so being unstupid, you take the flank and kick butt. Ask forgiveness after the afterparty.
But is it an action that needs forgiving, as per the Code?

As for breakfast, that is obvious. He ate his Holy Charms (soy milk, they're gluttons for punishment).

[Inevitability]

Let's take a look at the paladin code of conduct, shall we?


Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.

Unless your DM arbitrarily defines 'acting with honor' as 'not flanking' (at which point they're being an ass) you're good to go.

[Zancloufer]

The only things that seem to violate the Paladin's Code of conduct that would be applicable in combat would be using poisons as it's explicitly called out.

Flanking an outnumbered evil creature isn't un-honourable, it's smart.

On the Coup de Grace ; I would honestly say it depends. If they are NOT some sort of super evil outsider, undead or aberration AND there is a lawful authority you can turn them over to it's a bad idea and might even be strike worthy if done multiple times. Now on the flip side if the Paladin is say, fighting an Evil empire and has one of their scouts captured and no way to turn them over to a authority they can respect (IE one that isn't the evil empire) then execution is at the very least something they can turn a blind eye to. This is all assuming the DM let's you play the Paladin code like a harsh but fair dispenser of justice, not some pansy that lets any bandit that tried cutting their throat go home alive.

[tyckspoon]

Also, Coup de Grace: for obvious reasons. Helpless enemies are helpless.

Thoughts?

A helpless enemy is not necessarily one whose life you are responsible for. If you have not officially accepted their surrender, they're still your enemy, not your prisoner. It is not incompatible with being Good to execute an enemy - in most cases, the reasons you had for trying to kill them before they became Helpless are still valid reasons to kill them (the main exception is if you were fighting in pure self-defense, and you didn't actually want/need to kill them.) You can certainly play a character who assumes everything wants to surrender and automatically grants mercy, or that being no longer able to fight is the same thing as surrendering, but it's not the Paladin class that makes you do that. That's getting into more of a sort of chivalric honor set of restrictions, which is closer to the Knight class (seriously, compare the fairly vague Paladin code to the specific things Knights aren't allowed to do.)

[Vizzerdrix]

Can someone clear this up for me? I still dont understand how you have a paladin that hasnt fallen, or is imediately about to fall. :smallconfused:

[Dagroth]

Can someone clear this up for me? I still dont understand how you have a paladin that hasnt fallen, or is imediately about to fall. :smallconfused:

Because my DM isn't a douche-bucket.

[Firechanter]

Absolutely no problem with Flanking.
When fighting Humanoids, my Paladin typically (not always possible) gives them a chance to surrender. Speaking is a Free Action after all. If they don't comply, they've brought what's following on themselves. (If they simply don't understand Common... tough luck.)

[etrpgb]

A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act.

Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.

Remember, the point one is always the "Rule of Fun." The idea of "honor" is about what can taint your soul. For example, using poisons is a slippery slope, you might start on the weapons (so no big deal, isn't?) but soon you might just use poisons in a more liberal way and just kill without leaving the enemy a chance of fighting (and this is not really honorable).


As Paladin you are (well, the fluff says that*) the ultimate agent of light. Your weapon is the borderline between whom can might be redeemed and the one that you forsake any chance.

If the enemy deserve to die (and this is where you should be serious), you can and will kill him; coup-de-grace is just a mechanics to simulate a combat situation. It has nothing to do with your conduct code. Same as Sneak Attack or Flanking.

Read the fluff of the Shadowbane Inquisitor for ideas. They are Lawful Good and often Rogue/Paladin.


Finally, as usual. If your DM is being an ass just play a NG Druid.

*as mechanics you are just decent in something. A LG Warblade is probably better than you.

[Firechanter]

*as mechanics you are just decent in something. A LG Warblade is probably better than you.

*Crusader. ;) Well, Warblade is awesome mechanically, but it's the Crusie who shares that Divine Champion sorta feel. And also mechanically better than a Paladin.

[etrpgb]

*Crusader. ;) Well, Warblade is awesome mechanically, but it's the Crusie who shares that Divine Champion sorta feel. And also mechanically better than a Paladin.

Good point, but I guess it depends if you focus more on the "I shall purge evil" (Warblade) part or on the "I am a unshakable shield between evil and my companions" (Crusader). I was thinking more about the first, considering the topic of if using coup-de-grace or flanking is legit and mechanically Warblade does it better.

[Firechanter]

Oh yes, absolutely. Warblade is kinda my favourite class in 3.5, the "mobile, hard hitting melee warrior with a bag of tricks" theme being right up my alley. ^^

(Reminds me of a session where the DM had all his mobs swarm my Warblade, attempting to get into Flanking position and eating tons of AoOs and Standstills as they did so, and when they finally managed to attack, I got to remind the DM that they don't get any Flanking bonus, because Improved Uncanny Dodge.
Him: "Then why did you struggle so hard to keep them from moving in?" - Me: "Because I could."
:smallbiggrin: )

[etrpgb]

...or more simply, you might not want to risk that the adversaries are indeed 5 level higher and start doing tons of damage. Warblades are bold, but bold does not automatically mean stupid.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

I think execute is very lawful act, if some one judge your enemy to die(it can be you if the law say you can judge someone in the middle of battle).

Anyway, coup de grace is a valid tactic and you can use it to do some good because your enemies will die quickly and will not suffer from a slow death, prison or a punishment from their masters.

[Firechanter]

Well, "coup de grace" _does_ literally mean "strike of mercy", after all.

[OldTrees1]

Thoughts?

Talk to your DM about rewriting the Paladin code of conduct so as to personalize it to your character concept. It really fleshes out a Paladin character to have some shared idea of where their hard limits are. In all frankness, setting aside the fact that the Paladin code is poorly laid out, it is also to stringent in some areas and not stringent enough to be interesting in other areas. I know next to nothing about you and I am certain you and your DM could craft something more enjoyable.

However if we are using the D&D 3.5 paladin code of conduct as visible in the SRD, neither flanking nor coup de grace is an offense provided slaying the enemy in question is not an offense in and of itself.