Is this an active or passive check?

[mgshamster]

The scene:

Dark stormy night, hard rain, lightning and thunder.

PCs are in a tower that has holes in the side - run down and decrepit. Tower is currently being used as a prison, so what rooms are usable have prisoners in them.

A prison break just happened. Party is involved in a fight with prisoners.

One turncoat guard took ahold of the warden and put a knife to his throat.

I made the turncoat whisper something and called for a DC 12 Perception check for them to hear (basically, it's a hint for why he's a turncoat, which can change the direction of roleplay).

One of the players believes that his passive perception (13) should allow him to auto pass.

My opinion: 1) It's too noisy for passive to work; you have to actually roll. 2) I feel like using passive basically means I'm dictating which PCs can hear it and which PCs can't; I prefer a bit of randomness. 3) PHB says passive is used for hide checks; this isn't someone hiding, it's someone mumbling to themselves as a hint for a roleplay opportunity.

However, I'm open to being wrong. How would you call this?

[tkuremento]

Are the PCs actively trying to hear what is happening or is it something that you would just hear? For instance if you are in a loud tavern and the next booth over says something, that would probably be passive. But then once they have you hooked in and you want to hear more, future rolls would be active. I could be wrong though.

[sightlessrealit]

I'm guessing this is a no but does anyone in the party have the Observant Feat? If so, they'd be able to read the turncoats lips.

[Typhon]

I would say active as well. There is a prison break going on and storm outside a decrepit tower. Passive will be more useful to know if trouble is coming from behind (barely), not a mumble they are trying to focus on.

[DivisibleByZero]

My opinion: 1) It's too noisy for passive to work; you have to actually roll. 2) I feel like using passive basically means I'm dictating which PCs can hear it and which PCs can't; I prefer a bit of randomness.

These are reasonable. And you're the DM.

[Puh Laden]

PHB pg. 175 "[A passive ability check] can represent the average result for a task done repeatedly, such as searching for secret doors over and over again, or can be used when the DM wants to secretly determine whether the characters succeed at something without rolling dice, such as noticing a hidden monster."

This is a check that has nothing to do with determining surprise or hiding or doing a task repeatedly, therefore it's only passive if you want it to be. As for myself, I would run it as the NPC's Dexterity check against the party's passive Wisdom scores. And because I'm weird I'd have it that if the NPC is proficient in stealth or sleight of hand or deception that he'd be proficient in the check, and I'd make the passive Wisdom score include one of perception or insight whichever is higher (because expertise).

[DivisibleByZero]

This is a check that has nothing to do with determining surprise or hiding or doing a task repeatedly, therefore it's only passive if you want it to be.

That's actually an argument against it being passive. The whisper was a one time occurrence. It isn't something that is done over and over again which would require a passive check. It's something that happened quickly.
Did you catch it? Roll a d20.

[Farecry]

The breakdown between the two is which ones are actually listening for it. If you don't wan to use passive then make them declare the action of trying to listen. If they don't, then they don't hear.

[mgshamster]

Thanks everyone.

[Desamir]

The DMG expands on the use of passive Perception checks, adding the following:


Detecting a secret or concealed door
Spotting a pickpocket attempt
Detecting a trap in passing


By the looks of it, trying to hear the whisper would be an active check. I'd probably use passive scores to let the players know there was someone whispering in the first place if it wasn't already obvious, but actually hearing the words would likely be an active check.

The noise level shouldn't dictate whether it's a passive or active check, it should dictate the DC and/or whether or not they have disadvantage on it.

[Sir cryosin]

Have two DC's
The DC for passive be 17. Reason there's a thunder storm going on, a prison break chaos, and the party is probably more worry about trying to save the Warden not what the turncoat just whispered to himself.

Then the DC for a perception check 14. This person is trying to take in the situation. And would catch this.

[Hrugner]

I'd rule that if they don't need to do something to hear it, then it's passive. If this were a combat, would you have them spend their action to hear this whisper?

[Coffee_Dragon]

You're calling for a roll, therefore it's active. Passive is for when you don't call for a roll. The type of activity is irrelevant. Passive is not a floor for active. It's as simple as that.

[Desamir]

You're calling for a roll, therefore it's active. Passive is for when you don't call for a roll. The type of activity is irrelevant. Passive is not a floor for active. It's as simple as that.

This is a tautology. You're essentially saying "it's active when you say it's active, and it's passive when you say it's passive." OP wants to know when he should use each.

[Tanarii]

Sounds like either way, the check should be at disadvantage for ambient noise.

[Coffee_Dragon]

This is a tautology.

Uh... no it's not? It's the rules of the game.


OP wants to know when he should use each.

I thought he was asking if he did it correctly, and he did. The player is not entitled to a passive check.

[Tanarii]

I thought he was asking if he did it correctly, and he did. The player is not entitled to a passive check.yeah. The PHB and DMG have many circumstances in which they specify Passive Perception should be used. But other than that, it's up to the DM, based on the normal rules for passive checks.

IMO the majority of times that the rules specifies passive perception, it also can be interpreted that it's because of one of the two reasons a DM might call for a passive check: it's something being done repeatedly; it's a secret check.

Edit: IMO this sounds like a one time non-secret check, so I'd do it as a rolled check too.

[Ninja_Prawn]

I made the turncoat whisper something and called for a DC 12 Perception check for them to hear

I agree that this is fairly obviously an active check that the DM should call for ("it looks like the turncoat just whispered something. Anyone who is within 30 feet can roll a Wisdom (Perception) check to see if they heard" - which also gives anyone with Observant a chance to chip in with "I can read lips!" of their own accord), but to my mind the larger problem here is that 12 seems low for the DC. Hearing whispers is hard, especially when there's ambient noise. My starting point for this would probably be closer to 20.

[Tanarii]

I agree that this is fairly obviously an active check that the DM should call for ("it looks like the turncoat just whispered something. Anyone who is within 30 feet can roll a Wisdom (Perception) check to see if they heard" - which also gives anyone with Observant a chance to chip in with "I can read lips!" of their own accord), but to my mind the larger problem here is that 12 seems low for the DC. Hearing whispers is hard, especially when there's ambient noise. My starting point for this would probably be closer to 20.
Or DC 15 with disadvantage. That's slightly different in that it cancels all sources of advantage, but doesn't stack with all sources of disadvantage.

(Edit: as well as mathematically producing a different curve and possible success chance based on players bonus, of course.)

[Puh Laden]

This is a tautology. You're essentially saying "it's active when you say it's active, and it's passive when you say it's passive." OP wants to know when he should use each.

"It's active when you say it's active and passive when you say so" are the rules in the PHB (see my previous post). The only exceptions are for surprise and IIRC hiding.

[Hrugner]

"It's active when you say it's active and passive when you say so" are the rules in the PHB (see my previous post). The only exceptions are for surprise and IIRC hiding.

They are in deed the rules, but it is also a tautology. You can't extrapolate from that type of information, or infer anything, it's just x=x.

[mgshamster]

I agree that this is fairly obviously an active check that the DM should call for ("it looks like the turncoat just whispered something. Anyone who is within 30 feet can roll a Wisdom (Perception) check to see if they heard" - which also gives anyone with Observant a chance to chip in with "I can read lips!" of their own accord), but to my mind the larger problem here is that 12 seems low for the DC. Hearing whispers is hard, especially when there's ambient noise. My starting point for this would probably be closer to 20.

Fair. But this is low level and I wanted them to have a decent chance at hearing it, barring luck of dice.

[DivisibleByZero]

OP wants to know when he should use each.
OP got the answer he was looking for.

Thanks everyone.