Hideous Blow Cleave?

[Graysire]

I'm creating a gestalt Warlock//Fighter NPC who functions a bit like a gish, thus they have Hideous Blow, but if they have cleave, can they use it in conjunction with Hideous Blow?

i.e. Hideous Blow, drops target, cleave with a Hideous Blow?

[Troacctid]

You can make the extra attack, but it will be a normal weapon attack without the benefit of hideous blow.

[Graysire]

Okay, thank you! I'd assume it doesn't work with Attacks of Opportunity either?

[Grod_The_Giant]

Nope-- it's its own standard action, which happens to include a melee attack. What you want is Eldrich Glaive, which lets you make iterative attacks and explicitly threatens the surrounding area until your next turn.

[Graysire]

Which book holds Eldritch Glaive?

[MisterKaws]

Which book holds Eldritch Glaive?

Dragon Magic.

By the way, there's a web enhancement article for epic Warlocks with some feats that let you do pseudo-full attacks and use Hideos Blow in attacks of opportunity.

Hmm... Here (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ei/20061027a), found it.

[Gruftzwerg]

Eldritch Glaive if you want reach:
- 10ft reach (can't attack 5ft)
- melee touch attack
- no Str bonus and no Power Attack & such
- gets AoO

Eldritch Claws (feat, Dragon Magazine #313)if you wanna go close range:
- a pair of Claws: (unarmed + eldritch blast dmg)
- if you take Beast Strike you get: unarmed + unarmed + Eldritch Blast dmg
- since Best Strike counts as unarmed (and not claw) you can make a full attack with them.
- has a nice dmg progress with monk/swordsage
- can be combined with Combat maneuver Feats (Power Attack & such)
- gets AoO
(have a look at my Almighty Claw build in my signature for some info about warlock/monk synergy with enlightened fist)

sidenote about Hideous Blows:
- what you want you can get as epic feat: Eldritch Sculpture (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ei/20061027ahttp://) -.-, in regular play (1-20) Hideous Blow is limited in use.
- It's not so bad as many will make it look like (even guides), it's just a small niche.
- when you initiate combat, you can have an extra burst on your first charge attack (Eldritch Balst + your normal Eldritch Claw/Glaive damage). It's not intended for a full attack

[Grod_The_Giant]

Eldritch Glaive if you want reach:
- 10ft reach (can't attack 5ft)
- melee touch attack
- no Str bonus and no Power Attack & such
- gets AoO
The significant downside, admittedly, is that it takes a full-round.

[Graysire]

The build I've ended up with works decently with just Hideous Blow, uses a spiked chain, and in combat uses Hungry Darkness, Devil's Sight, and Enervating Shadow to fight. OH and Beshadowed Blast. So overall seems to work well. Thanks for all the suggestions though, they look fun to play around with.

[Gruftzwerg]

The build I've ended up with works decently with just Hideous Blow, uses a spiked chain, and in combat uses Hungry Darkness, Devil's Sight, and Enervating Shadow to fight. OH and Beshadowed Blast. So overall seems to work well. Thanks for all the suggestions though, they look fun to play around with.

I would suggest "Nightmares Made Real" on top of that. "You" can hide in it while being observed.
Noxious Blast is another good essence to apply (nauseated for 1 min.; fortitude save negates).

[Troacctid]

I would suggest "Nightmares Made Real" on top of that. "You" can hide in it while being observed.
I mean, while you can technically hide in it, it is generally pointless to do so, as the spell blocks line of sight already.

[Gruftzwerg]

double layered vision defense. Sure in most situations not necessary, but if your enemies has some meaning to see in your magical darkness as well (not uncommon. caster & some daemons & other creatures come into my mind), you'll be happy to have other "stealth" options.

[Graysire]

Well if they can see into the darkness, Enervating Shadow can be used to get the 50% miss chance from Total Concealment

[Troacctid]

Gruftzwerg really likes Nightmares Made Real for some reason. I've been unimpressed with it, though. There are a lot of other invocations I would recommend before it.

I have a guide to invocations here (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1-6a2WhKNXCSkbTXiocOklvsgNhCNKxgVdRGn-nhM_zs/edit?usp=drivesdk) that you might find useful.

[Graysire]

Thanks, that's really helpful, certainly something I'll probably use in the future. I make warlock characters quite a bit.

[Gruftzwerg]

I prefer to have stealth (hide) as second vision layer. 50% concealment ain't a vision block (especially for spells, and caster are the ones who most likely can see/have options in your magical darkness). And yeah, everybody has his own preferences and I like Nightmares Made Real. Is that any problem? I see it as flexible and underestimated invocation. Other builds would die to have an ability what almost equals "Hide in Plain Sight".
Imho the real joke is that people make fun about Nightmares Made Real without seeing it's full potential.
But hey, if your fights tactical lvl end at: when enemy can see me in my magical darkness 50% concealment is enough, than you are fine. As said, most enemies who can see in magical darkness are casters and aren't affected by concealment (less than 100%) unless their only offensive spells are ray & touch spells. Hide is most times a more reliable way in fight against casters. And if you can do it on sight, than it's almost gg.

If the enemy has true sight, concealment (lesser than 100%) and magical darkness won't work. But hide does work. I hope I could clear up, why I love NMR.

[Graysire]

Of my group I'm the one who enjoys tactics the most, we've ended up with a Rogue//Bard, Artificer//Dread Necromancer, Fighter//Barbarian, and a Psion//Incarnate who's a telepath.

As an NPC with support minions I don't foresee the caster shenanigans as too much of a problem, especially with a wand of Web and Voracious Dispelling if things come to a really bad spot.

When all's said and done though, while many of these aren't applicable right now, all of these options are things I want to look into for future use.

[Troacctid]

I prefer to have stealth (hide) as second vision layer. 50% concealment ain't a vision block (especially for spells, and caster are the ones who most likely can see/have options in your magical darkness). And yeah, everybody has his own preferences and I like Nightmares Made Real. Is that any problem? I see it as flexible and underestimated invocation. Other builds would die to have an ability what almost equals "Hide in Plain Sight".
Imho the real joke is that people make fun about Nightmares Made Real without seeing it's full potential.
But hey, if your fights tactical lvl end at: when enemy can see me in my magical darkness 50% concealment is enough, than you are fine. As said, most enemies who can see in magical darkness are casters and aren't affected by concealment (less than 100%) unless their only offensive spells are ray & touch spells. Hide is most times a more reliable way in fight against casters. And if you can do it on sight, than it's almost gg.

If the enemy has true sight, concealment (lesser than 100%) and magical darkness won't work. But hide does work. I hope I could clear up, why I love NMR.
Total concealment does in fact mean the enemy cannot see you at all, obviating the need for a Hide check.

[Gruftzwerg]

Total concealment does in fact mean the enemy cannot see you at all, obviating the need for a Hide check.

Only at 100% concealment. But 50% concealment is a clearly visible target for a caster. And magic unless tied to an attack roll (ray + touch spells), just ignores any concealment lesser than 100%.

Again, it's a caster in most cases that can/will see in your magical darkness and he should have enough options to deal with the 50% concealment and just lol about it.

[Troacctid]

Only at 100% concealment. But 50% concealment is a clearly visible target for a caster. And magic unless tied to an attack roll (ray + touch spells), just ignores any concealment lesser than 100%.

Again, it's a caster in most cases that can/will see in your magical darkness and he should have enough options to deal with the 50% concealment and just lol about it.
Perhaps you misunderstand. Total concealment means that enemies do not have line of sight to you, period, and cannot target you with spells or attacks, period. They can target your square to attack you with a 50% miss chance. It is the same type of concealment that an invisible creature has. It obviates the need for a Hide check. Spellcasters cannot ignore it with non-attack spells; in fact, that is basically the opposite of how it works—you need line of sight to target a creature, so you simply cannot be the target of targeted spells at all. They can target your square with rays or AoE effects, but not you directly.

There is no such thing as 100% concealment in D&D 3.5 as far as I am aware. It only goes up to 50%.

[Gruftzwerg]

Perhaps you misunderstand. Total concealment means that enemies do not have line of sight to you, period, and cannot target you with spells or attacks, period. They can target your square to attack you with a 50% miss chance. It is the same type of concealment that an invisible creature has. It obviates the need for a Hide check. Spellcasters cannot ignore it with non-attack spells; in fact, that is basically the opposite of how it works—you need line of sight to target a creature, so you simply cannot be the target of targeted spells at all. They can target your square with rays or AoE effects, but not you directly.

There is no such thing as 100% concealment in D&D 3.5 as far as I am aware. It only goes up to 50%.

yeah we are struggling as always^^

total concealment (100%) = 50% misschance

but concealment can be overcome by magical vision. While hide is most of the times much more reliable against a regular caster who doesn't excel at spot/listen checks.

I am still talking about those enemies who can overcome your magical sight blocking spells. Most spells fail at some point against magic vision. With NMR you can "hide" even if the enemy can see in your magic. Cause NMR gives you the ability to hide in it, and that does stay (even if regular physical logic would dictate otherwise) even if the enemy caster can see through the illusion you use to hide. This is why I love NMR. Most caster don't bother with pushing spot checks (even with magic its rare). They thrust their magical vision to much and that is why NMR will break their neck compared to most other vision blocking spells/invocations.

[Troacctid]

Nightmares Made Real doesn't offer any special advantages against magical modes of vision. It gets beaten by blindsight and touchsight and the like, same as Enervating Shadow. Hiding does beat truesight, but Enervating Shadow also beats truesight, except without the need for a check, so...

[Gruftzwerg]

Nightmares Made Real doesn't offer any special advantages against magical modes of vision. It gets beaten by blindsight and touchsight and the like, same as Enervating Shadow. Hiding does beat truesight, but Enervating Shadow also beats truesight, except without the need for a check, so...

Yeah blindsight beats em all, but it is a rarely used spell by NPC caster if you take the official adventures as sample. While truesight is much more common.

And imho, truesight beats Enervating Shadows concealment. You can see thru the illusion (and the illusion ontop of it), but since you aren't hiding, he has clear Line of Effect and can clearly see you.

While NMR provides you with the some kind of "hide in plain sight" ability which still works even if the enemy sees thru your illusion. The text doesn't mention that enemies need to fail their saves (be effected) to be able to hide. You just need to stand in it.
From a logical POV to explain it:
The double layered vision when a true sight user sees a NMR terrain (the real picture + the illusion he is seeing) is still enough distraction to hide in it.

Enervating Shadows doesn't give you this kind of special ability.

[Troacctid]

Enervating Shadow isn't an illusion, nor does it fall into any of the other categories of effects that true seeing sees through.

[Gruftzwerg]

Enervating Shadow isn't an illusion, nor does it fall into any of the other categories of effects that true seeing sees through.

It alters darkness magically which makes it imho into something that True Seeing penetrates. Something clearly indicated by the fact that it is suppressed by magical light spells. Note that TS is talking about "magical darkness" in general and not the "darkness-subcategory" (which Enervating Shadow seems to miss, but as said since it is suppressed by light spells, one can imply that it is even a darkness effect)!

[Troacctid]

Despite being suppressed by light spells, Enervating Shadow is not a darkness effect. It simply requires you to be in darkness in order to use it.

[Gruftzwerg]

Despite being suppressed by light spells, Enervating Shadow is not a darkness effect. It simply requires you to be in darkness in order to use it.

and the darkness gets further enhanced by the magic. Imho that is enough to count as darkness effect (if you should still argue that it doesn't count as darkness subschool).
Fire spells that alter natural fire which is already there is the same as reference.
Just because the description in Complete Arcane doesn't list any subschool information at all (beside from references indirect with related spells copied), doesn't mean that it doesn't have a subschool. All magical spells and sla do have (access to) subschools and I don't see why invocation that don't copy spells shouldn't? It fits the subschools definition.

[Troacctid]

and the darkness gets further enhanced by the magic. Imho that is enough to count as darkness effect (if you should still argue that it doesn't count as darkness subschool).
Fire spells that alter natural fire which is already there is the same as reference.
Pyrotechnics and quench are not fire spells.


Just because the description in Complete Arcane doesn't list any subschool information at all (beside from references indirect with related spells copied), doesn't mean that it doesn't have a subschool. All magical spells and sla do have (access to) subschools and I don't see why invocation that don't copy spells shouldn't? It fits the subschools definition.
They can have descriptors if they say they do. Enthralling Voice says it is a mind-affecting effect. Baleful Utterance says it is a sonic effect. Charm says it is a language-dependent effect. And as it happens, Enervating Shadow does not say it is a darkness effect, nor does it meet the definition of a darkness effect (there is no such definition AFAICT).

[Gruftzwerg]

nor does it meet the definition of a darkness effect (there is no such definition AFAICT).

since "darkness effect" has no special definition in 3.5 you fall back to the default english definition.

altering "darkness" via magic, so you are concealed in it sounds like a magical darkness effect to me, which is penetrated by true seeing.

[Mordaedil]

What ruling is it that overrides the Cleave benefit that you apply the same modifications to the next attack? Is it something in Hideous Blow itself?

[Gruftzwerg]

Hideous Blow is a "charge" triggered on your next attack (defined by an "attack roll"). As soon as you hit, the charge is used.