Halfdragon monk again!!

[finaldooms]

Hi yall!! Back for the same player yet again.

Half dragon has claws, but he says he can use them with flurry. .i say no. Is that correct?

Also how do natural attacks work with extra attacks, and,high bab.?

..actually a link to rules on natural attacks would be mice
I thought i put 3.5 my bad

[Coidzor]

Natural Weapons and You (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=482.0)

That should help clear much of this up.

As long as you're not talking about Pathfinder or something.

[Gruftzwerg]

a) no, you can't use your natural attacks as unarmed strike. they are different things.
full attack with either 2 claws or full attack with unarmed strike. He could get multiattack to get claws as secondary attack. no flurry

b) Best solution for your player would be "Beast Strike" feat. Beast Strike lets you add your claw damage on top of your unarmed strike damage.
unarmed strike = (base unarmed strike) + (claw)
And since you are using unarmed strike to make use Beast Strike, you can flurry with it.

[Metahuman1]

Yeah, no, no, that is not correct.


He can attack with the claws. He will take a -5 penalty. If he flurry's, he'll also take a -2 for Flurry. The flurry penalty will go down normally. Taking the multiattack feat will lessen the -5 to a -2.

He get's half strength to damage to either the claws or his unarmed, whichever is the secondary.

The claws do benefit form an amulet of mighty fists if he get's/has one. And can from greater magic weapon because he's a monk.

[finaldooms]

Natural Weapons and You (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=482.0)

That should help clear much of this up.

As long as you're not talking about Pathfinder or something.

...so if i read that small blurb about monks right..thry treat natural atracks as monk weapons? Since flurry specifies monk weapons ( which include unarmed attacks)

[SirNibbles]

If you'd be kind enough to inform us of the version you're playing, it'd be a great help. I'll assume 3.5.

Monk can only flurry with special monk weapons or his Unarmed Strike. Natural Weapons are neither, thus you cannot use them as part of a flurry. Additionally, you cannot use Natural Weapons to deliver an Unarmed Strike (so you don't use your monk's Unarmed Strike damage for your Natural Weapons).

The Unorthodox Flurry feat (Dragon Compendium Volume I, page 109) allows you to flurry with any light weapon. Rules Compendium, page 45 states that Natural Weapons are considered light weapons.

___

EDIT: Here's some information regarding Natural Weapons and Unarmed Strikes with official sources:


Sources, in order of reference: Rules Compendium, page 16; Player's Handbook, page 116


UNARMED ATTACKS
Striking with punches and kicks is like attacking with a
melee weapon, except that such attacks usually provoke an
attack of opportunity from the foe you attack, provided that
opponent is armed. The attack of opportunity comes before
your attack. An unarmed attack doesn’t provoke attacks of
opportunity from other foes, nor does it provoke an attack
of opportunity from an unarmed foe. An unarmed creature
can’t make attacks of opportunity.

_

Properties of Unarmed Attacks:
-identical to using a melee weapon, with the following exceptions:

-provoke AoO from the person you attack
-cannot make attacks of opportunity



Simple Weapons

Unarmed Attacks

Gauntlet
Unarmed Strike
Light Melee Weapons

_

Properties of Unarmed Attacks:
-Unarmed Attacks are Simple Weapons
-two weapons are considered to be Unarmed Attacks: the Gauntlet and the Unarmed Strike



Properties of Unarmed Attacks:
-identical to using a melee weapon, with the following exceptions:

-provoke AoO from the person you attack
-cannot make attacks of opportunity
-Unarmed Attacks are Simple Weapons
-two weapons are considered to be Unarmed Attacks: the Gauntlet and the Unarmed Strike


Sources, in order of reference: Player's Handbook, page 116; Player's Handbook, page 121


Simple Weapons

Unarmed Attacks

Gauntlet
Unarmed Strike
Light Melee Weapons

_

Properties of Unarmed Strikes:
-Unarmed Strikes are a type of Unarmed Attack
-Unarmed Strikes are a Simple Weapon



Strike, Unarmed: A Medium character deals 1d3 points of
nonlethal damage with an unarmed strike, which may be a punch,
kick, head butt, or other type of attack. A Small character deals 1d2
points of nonlethal damage. A monk or any character with the
Improved Unarmed Strike feat can deal lethal or nonlethal damage
with unarmed strikes, at her option. The damage from an unarmed
strike is considered weapon damage for the purposes of effects that
give you a bonus on weapon damage rolls.

An unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon. Therefore,
you can use the Weapon Finesse feat (page 102) to apply your
Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls
with an unarmed strike.

_

Properties of Unarmed Strikes:
-Unarmed Strikes deal nonlethal damage
-any character with the Improved Unarmed Strike can deal lethal or nonlethal damage, at their option
-Unarmed Strike damage counts as weapon damage for the purposes of effects that give you a bonus to weapon damage
-an Unarmed Strike is always considered a light weapon



Properties of Unarmed Strikes:
-Unarmed Strikes are a type of Unarmed Attack
-Unarmed Strikes are a Simple Weapon
-Unarmed Strikes deal nonlethal damage
-any character with the Improved Unarmed Strike can deal lethal or nonlethal damage, at their option
-Unarmed Strike damage counts as weapon damage for the purposes of effects that give you a bonus to weapon damage
-an Unarmed Strike is always considered a light weapon


Sources, in order of reference: Rules Compendium, page 100


Natural Attacks

Natural attacks come in two forms—natural weapons and
special attacks. Natural weapons, such as fangs or claws, are
physically a part of a creature. Special attacks are special
ways a creature can use its inborn attributes to harm other
creatures.

_

Properties of Natural Attacks:
-Natural Attacks are either natural weapons (like claws or tentacles) or special attacks (like breath or gaze attacks)



Properties of Natural Attacks:
-Natural Attacks are either natural weapons (like claws or tentacles) or special attacks (like breath or gaze attacks)


Sources, in order of reference: Rules Compendium, page 100; Rules Compendium, page 16; Rules Compendium, page 45


ATTACKS

A creature making a melee attack with a natural weapon is
considered armed and doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity.
Likewise, it threatens any space it can reach. Unless otherwise
noted, a natural weapon threatens a critical hit on a natural
attack roll of 20.

Creatures don’t receive additional attacks from a high base attack
bonus when using natural weapons. The number of attacks
a creature can make with its natural weapons depends on the
type of the attack—a creature can make one bite attack,
one attack per claw or tentacle, one gore attack, one sting attack,
or one slam attack. Large or larger creatures that hav
arms or armlike limbs can make a slam attack with each arm.
Refer to the individual monster descriptions, which take
precedence over these general rules.

_

Properties of Natural Weapons:
-creatures attacking with Natural Weapons are considered armed and don't provoke AoOs
-Threatens any space it can reach
-don't receive additional attacks from a high base attack bonus
-attack number based on the type of attack



Natural Weapons
A creature that has a natural weapon, such as a claw or slam,
is considered armed. It can make unarmed attacks, but it can’t
use its natural weapons as if they were unarmed attacks, nor
can it apply abilities that affect only unarmed attacks to its
natural weapons.

_

Properties of Natural Weapons:
-considered armed
-can't use Natural Weapons to make unarmed attacks
-can't apply abilities that affect only unarmed attacks to its natural weapons



Unarmed strikes and natural weapons are considered
light weapons

_

Properties of Natural Weapons
-considered light weapons



Properties of Natural Weapons:
-creatures attacking with Natural Weapons are considered armed and don't provoke AoOs
-threaten any space they can reach
-don't receive additional attacks from a high base attack bonus
-attack number based on the type of attack
-considered armed
-can't use Natural Weapons to make unarmed attacks
-can't apply abilities that affect only unarmed attacks to its natural weapons
-considered light weapons

[finaldooms]

Ok i edited my first post sorry about that, and i might as well ask more since im on the topic

He uses a quarterstaff and if he attacks at lvl 1 can he use both ends as a full round? With twf penalties right?

Also since he has claws would he be able to at lvl 1 go staff claw..or staff staff claw? With the claw taking a -5 as secondary? Or does holding the staff prevent that due to full hands.?

What about twf with his unarmed ( yes il allow it) does he get the claw at the end of that chain?

[Melcar]

If you'd be kind enough to inform us of the version you're playing, it'd be a great help. I'll assume 3.5.

Monk can only flurry with special monk weapons or his Unarmed Strike. Natural Weapons are neither, thus you cannot use them as part of a flurry. Additionally, you cannot use Natural Weapons to deliver an Unarmed Strike (so you don't use your monk's Unarmed Strike damage for your Natural Weapons).

The Unorthodox Flurry feat (Dragon Compendium Volume I, page 109) allows you to flurry with any light weapon. Rules Compendium, page 45 states that Natural Weapons are considered light weapons.

___

EDIT: Here's some information regarding Natural Weapons and Unarmed Strikes with official sources:


Sources, in order of reference: Rules Compendium, page 16; Player's Handbook, page 116


UNARMED ATTACKS
Striking with punches and kicks is like attacking with a
melee weapon, except that such attacks usually provoke an
attack of opportunity from the foe you attack, provided that
opponent is armed. The attack of opportunity comes before
your attack. An unarmed attack doesn’t provoke attacks of
opportunity from other foes, nor does it provoke an attack
of opportunity from an unarmed foe. An unarmed creature
can’t make attacks of opportunity.

_

Properties of Unarmed Attacks:
-identical to using a melee weapon, with the following exceptions:

-provoke AoO from the person you attack
-cannot make attacks of opportunity



Simple Weapons

Unarmed Attacks

Gauntlet
Unarmed Strike
Light Melee Weapons

_

Properties of Unarmed Attacks:
-Unarmed Attacks are Simple Weapons
-two weapons are considered to be Unarmed Attacks: the Gauntlet and the Unarmed Strike



Properties of Unarmed Attacks:
-identical to using a melee weapon, with the following exceptions:

-provoke AoO from the person you attack
-cannot make attacks of opportunity
-Unarmed Attacks are Simple Weapons
-two weapons are considered to be Unarmed Attacks: the Gauntlet and the Unarmed Strike


Sources, in order of reference: Player's Handbook, page 116; Player's Handbook, page 121


Simple Weapons

Unarmed Attacks

Gauntlet
Unarmed Strike
Light Melee Weapons

_

Properties of Unarmed Strikes:
-Unarmed Strikes are a type of Unarmed Attack
-Unarmed Strikes are a Simple Weapon



Strike, Unarmed: A Medium character deals 1d3 points of
nonlethal damage with an unarmed strike, which may be a punch,
kick, head butt, or other type of attack. A Small character deals 1d2
points of nonlethal damage. A monk or any character with the
Improved Unarmed Strike feat can deal lethal or nonlethal damage
with unarmed strikes, at her option. The damage from an unarmed
strike is considered weapon damage for the purposes of effects that
give you a bonus on weapon damage rolls.

An unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon. Therefore,
you can use the Weapon Finesse feat (page 102) to apply your
Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls
with an unarmed strike.

_

Properties of Unarmed Strikes:
-Unarmed Strikes deal nonlethal damage
-any character with the Improved Unarmed Strike can deal lethal or nonlethal damage, at their option
-Unarmed Strike damage counts as weapon damage for the purposes of effects that give you a bonus to weapon damage
-an Unarmed Strike is always considered a light weapon



Properties of Unarmed Strikes:
-Unarmed Strikes are a type of Unarmed Attack
-Unarmed Strikes are a Simple Weapon
-Unarmed Strikes deal nonlethal damage
-any character with the Improved Unarmed Strike can deal lethal or nonlethal damage, at their option
-Unarmed Strike damage counts as weapon damage for the purposes of effects that give you a bonus to weapon damage
-an Unarmed Strike is always considered a light weapon


Sources, in order of reference: Rules Compendium, page 100


Natural Attacks

Natural attacks come in two forms—natural weapons and
special attacks. Natural weapons, such as fangs or claws, are
physically a part of a creature. Special attacks are special
ways a creature can use its inborn attributes to harm other
creatures.

_

Properties of Natural Attacks:
-Natural Attacks are either natural weapons (like claws or tentacles) or special attacks (like breath or gaze attacks)



Properties of Natural Attacks:
-Natural Attacks are either natural weapons (like claws or tentacles) or special attacks (like breath or gaze attacks)


Sources, in order of reference: Rules Compendium, page 100; Rules Compendium, page 16; Rules Compendium, page 45


ATTACKS

A creature making a melee attack with a natural weapon is
considered armed and doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity.
Likewise, it threatens any space it can reach. Unless otherwise
noted, a natural weapon threatens a critical hit on a natural
attack roll of 20.

Creatures don’t receive additional attacks from a high base attack
bonus when using natural weapons. The number of attacks
a creature can make with its natural weapons depends on the
type of the attack—a creature can make one bite attack,
one attack per claw or tentacle, one gore attack, one sting attack,
or one slam attack. Large or larger creatures that hav
arms or armlike limbs can make a slam attack with each arm.
Refer to the individual monster descriptions, which take
precedence over these general rules.

_

Properties of Natural Weapons:
-creatures attacking with Natural Weapons are considered armed and don't provoke AoOs
-Threatens any space it can reach
-don't receive additional attacks from a high base attack bonus
-attack number based on the type of attack



Natural Weapons
A creature that has a natural weapon, such as a claw or slam,
is considered armed. It can make unarmed attacks, but it can’t
use its natural weapons as if they were unarmed attacks, nor
can it apply abilities that affect only unarmed attacks to its
natural weapons.

_

Properties of Natural Weapons:
-considered armed
-can't use Natural Weapons to make unarmed attacks
-can't apply abilities that affect only unarmed attacks to its natural weapons



Unarmed strikes and natural weapons are considered
light weapons

_

Properties of Natural Weapons
-considered light weapons



Properties of Natural Weapons:
-creatures attacking with Natural Weapons are considered armed and don't provoke AoOs
-threaten any space they can reach
-don't receive additional attacks from a high base attack bonus
-attack number based on the type of attack
-considered armed
-can't use Natural Weapons to make unarmed attacks
-can't apply abilities that affect only unarmed attacks to its natural weapons
-considered light weapons

Remember, that the unarmed attacks of a monk counts as both manufactered and natural weapons, for spells and feats and abilities. So a mormal monk is wielding both manufactered and natural weapons, even though he hasno claws. The monk in question thus has two sets of natural weapons!

[Bronk]

Ok i edited my first post sorry about that, and i might as well ask more since im on the topic

He uses a quarterstaff and if he attacks at lvl 1 can he use both ends as a full round? With twf penalties right?

Also since he has claws would he be able to at lvl 1 go staff claw..or staff staff claw? With the claw taking a -5 as secondary? Or does holding the staff prevent that due to full hands.?

What about twf with his unarmed ( yes il allow it) does he get the claw at the end of that chain?

It's already okay for the player to two weapon fight with two ends of a quarterstaff or one end of the quarterstaff and unarmed strike, because the unarmed strike uses the entire body.

You're right, he wouldn't get claw attacks while using a quarterstaff because he's using those hands to hold the weapon.

However, don't forget that half dragons have bite attacks too. The player could use that while using a quarterstaff without any problems.

[Darrin]

In the interests of pedantry...



You're right, he wouldn't get claw attacks while using a quarterstaff because he's using those hands to hold the weapon.


That's actually an "unwritten rule". There's nothing in the text of the Core rules that says you lose a natural attack if that appendage is doing something else. Although you could argue that this should be obvious enough that the designers considered common sense would be clear here. Or we could drag out the "it's a free action to let go or regrip a weapon" thing.

There's also a bit of grey area about whether additional attacks are considered part of a Flurry or can be done outside of a Flurry. You could argue that secondary natural attacks happen after the Flurry, and are thus not part of the limitations imposed on Flurry attacks. But that's sort of in House Rules territory, which in the interest of preserving your sanity is probably where you should be anyway.

Other than that, everyone else is on top of the RAW.

[SirNibbles]

...so if i read that small blurb about monks right..thry treat natural atracks as monk weapons? Since flurry specifies monk weapons ( which include unarmed attacks)

No.

Unarmed Attacks are attacks made with one of two weapons: Gauntlets or the Unarmed Strike. Natural Weapons are a completely different thing.

_

According to some people, you can do a flurry with your Unarmed Strike as your primary attack and then secondary with your Natural Weapons as long as your Natural Weapon doesn't require the use of a limb you already used.

Example: You are an 8th level Monk with a Bite attack.

You attack with an Unarmed Strike Flurry of Blows.
+5/+5/+0
You use your Bite attack as a secondary attack.
-6 (-5 for secondary attack with a Natural Weapon, -1 for Flurry of Blows)

Whether this 'secondary attack'- a term which is only vaguely defined- is considered part of the Flurry of Blows or not is debatable. If it is, you could not Flurry+Natural without Unorthodox Flurry.

From ROTG, Unarmed Attacks (Part Two)
http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20070403a
"A nonmonk weapon or a natural weapon can't be combined with a flurry in any way."

I have not been able to find enough information one way or the other to definitively state which is correct. As a DM, I would allow a Flurry (composed completely of UAS and/or Monk Weapons) to be followed by secondary attacks with Natural Weapons. The Natural Weapons would take a cumulative penalty from Flurry of Blows and the secondary attack penalty (-5, or -2 with Multiattack).

_

Certain Natural Weapons can't be used as secondaries with UAS because they use the same limb. In order to combine UAS and Natural Weapons, you treat UAS as being made with your primary limb. This means that you can't make a claw attack or something similar with that same limb, even as a secondary attack. If you have 2 claws, you can make a single claw attack as a secondary attack (plus other natural attacks like a bite).

[Karl Aegis]

The Fiendish Gelatinous Cube Monk 10 from an Elite Opponents article has this attack routine:

Melee slam +9 (1d6+1 plus 1d6 acid) or
Melee unarmed strike +9/+4 (4d6+1 plus 1d6 acid) or
Melee unarmed strike +9/+9/+4 (4d6+1 plus 1d6 acid) with flurry of blows

As you can see it cannot use it's natural slam attack when making an unarmed strike or using a flurry of blows. There's probably a vampire monk in the Monster Manual if you want to see if this is consistent between monsters.

[Telonius]

Here's how I would parse it.

Claws are part of the Monk's body. If he wants to use a claw to deliver the Monk's unarmed strike as part of a Flurry, that's perfectly okay - if his "hands" are empty, he wouldn't be forced to use kicks or headbutts, or whatever. But if he connects with a claw as part of a Flurry, it will do the damage that his unarmed strike would normally do, not the damage he would get from the claw attack. Anything that modifies a Claw attack specifically (Improved Natural Attack: Claw, for example) would not function; anything that modifies an unarmed strike would function.

If the Monk uses the claw as part of his Claw attack (claw/claw), then it would deal damage as a Claw attack, not as an unarmed strike. He would not get any bonuses for extra unarmed damage, or any of the other Monk stuff (counts as adamantine, magic, etc for Damage Reduction).

A Monk (or any other character) wielding both manufactured and natural weapons can use them both in a full attack action. If he uses a flurry (a full attack action) he can then finish off with his natural attacks. They would be at -5 from being a secondary weapons, and another -2 from the Flurry penalty (decreasing to -1 at 5th level, and disappearing at 9th). Whether or not you would allow the Monk to do that is kind of debatable; I'm guessing he's going to claim he's holding the quarterstaff in one claw, then the other, while he makes his claw attacks. Personally I'd throw him a bone on that. We're talking about a half-dragon Monk here. He's already rocking a +3 level adjustment, and has levels in Monk. It's not like he's going to break the game if he gets two more attacks at -7 to -5 each.

[AnachroNinja]

No.


_

According to some people, you can do a flurry with your Unarmed Strike as your primary attack and then secondary with your Natural Weapons as long as your Natural Weapon doesn't require the use of a limb you already used.

Example: You are an 8th level Monk with a Bite attack.




Certain Natural Weapons can't be used as secondaries with UAS because they use the same limb. In order to combine UAS and Natural Weapons, you treat UAS as being made with your primary limb. This means that you can't make a claw attack or something similar with that same limb, even as a secondary attack. If you have 2 claws, you can make a single claw attack as a secondary attack (plus other natural attacks like a bite).

This isn't strictly accurate. Improved unarmed strike doesn't use any specific limb. It's noted that you're entire improved unarmed strike attack routine could be made up of kicks, knees, body blocks, and similar without involving your hands at all. This is to allow non humanoid creatures to stop make use of it, IE the gelatinous cube monk.

Me personally, since IT'S is treated like other weapons, I don't see any reason why you can't use your normal attack routine with it and then follow up with secondary natural attacks the same way monsters do with their weapons/natural attacks. It's not exactly overpowered anyway, you're a monk after all.

[SirNibbles]

This isn't strictly accurate. Improved unarmed strike doesn't use any specific limb. It's noted that you're entire improved unarmed strike attack routine could be made up of kicks, knees, body blocks, and similar without involving your hands at all. This is to allow non humanoid creatures to stop make use of it, IE the gelatinous cube monk.

_

Me personally, since IT'S is treated like other weapons, I don't see any reason why you can't use your normal attack routine with it and then follow up with secondary natural attacks the same way monsters do with their weapons/natural attacks. It's not exactly overpowered anyway, you're a monk after all.


I'm just going based on the ROTG article.

_

You definitely can do your normal attack routine and then follow up with secondary natural attacks. Whether or not you can flurry and do this is debatable.

[Gruftzwerg]

Remember, that the unarmed attacks of a monk counts as both manufactered and natural weapons, for spells and feats and abilities. So a mormal monk is wielding both manufactered and natural weapons, even though he hasno claws. The monk in question thus has two sets of natural weapons!
emphasis added.
It counts only for spells and effects as both manufactured and natural weapon. But he is still wielding an unarmed strike, not natural attacks. Means, you can't exchange "normally" your unarmed attack with claws in your flurry.

As said, take "Beast Strike", do unarmed damage = (unarmed + claw) and flurry..
Problem solved and DPS increased = win win

[Bronk]

In the interests of pedantry...

To be truly pendantic, I would note that dropping an item is a free action, so a half dragon monk could flurry, two weapon fight with a quarterstaff, drop it, then follow it up with a claw claw bite attack once, but would have to wait to pick the weapon up again... unless they had another quarterstaff and the quick draw feat.

[Gruftzwerg]

To be truly pendantic, I would note that dropping an item is a free action, so a half dragon monk could flurry, two weapon fight with a quarterstaff, drop it, then follow it up with a claw claw bite attack once, but would have to wait to pick the weapon up again... unless they had another quarterstaff and the quick draw feat.

I have the image of a Shaolin monk "dropping" his quarterstaff for a brief moment on his shoulder to attack with his hands. I would ask your DM if you can "balance" the quarterstaff temporary on your shoulder (DC 10 check?^^).

[Bronk]

I have the image of a Shaolin monk "dropping" his quarterstaff for a brief moment on his shoulder to attack with his hands. I would ask your DM if you can "balance" the quarterstaff temporary on your shoulder (DC 10 check?^^).

Heh! You could call it the "Jackie Chan" feat!

[emeraldstreak]

That's actually an "unwritten rule". There's nothing in the text of the Core rules that says you lose a natural attack if that appendage is doing something else.


In the PHB.

The Core clearly shows one cannot combine weapons held in hands and claws in monster entries like the Bearded Devil and the Horned Devil.

[Dagroth]

From ROTG, Unarmed Attacks (Part Two)
http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20070403a
"A nonmonk weapon or a natural weapon can't be combined with a flurry in any way."

Point of Order.

There are feats that allow you to add some weapons to the list of Monk Weapons.

There's a Prestige Class (Shou Disciple) that allows you to Flurry with any weapon.

I am certain there are other exceptions to this "in any way" ruling.

Using absolutes in language is almost always a bad idea.

[Melcar]

emphasis added.
It counts only for spells and effects as both manufactured and natural weapon. But he is still wielding an unarmed strike, not natural attacks. Means, you can't exchange "normally" your unarmed attack with claws in your flurry.

As said, take "Beast Strike", do unarmed damage = (unarmed + claw) and flurry..
Problem solved and DPS increased = win win

And feats! Thats why you can take improved natural attack, for more unarmed damage!

[finaldooms]

Im so glad for this site lol, i think i got one more question

Can someone give me the table for twf? Im going ahead and saying he can get his bite after quarterstaff since that works...and for his flurry he can add natural attacks after at the -7 ( the bite since his hands were full of quarterstaff..unless he tells me he kicks them)

He is really wanting to focus on double weapon fighting with that staff >> had to also explain to him he pays double cost for enchantments ( both ends)

[Gruftzwerg]

And feats! Thats why you can take improved natural attack, for more unarmed damage!

Irrelevant and a waste of feat if you have necklace with sizing.

Or would you waste a feat just to overcome one step of -2 penalty? A feat starving build needs to spent his feats somewhere else.

Just to point out again:

a feat for negating a -2 penalty, compared to some gold for a necklace which results in more possible damage and they both don't stack with each other.

So a big NO NO to imp Natural Attacks here. It always makes me laugh when I see it in "optimization" builds for unarmed/natural attackers. It makes no sense once you have access to "sizing".

@finaldoom:
his Bite is a secondary attack, normally done at -5. If he takes Multiattack -2.
http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/rg
have a look at "unarmed attack part 1 - 3". should give you all basic info (outside of special feats, that may overcome/change certain thing.. like always^^).

[Melcar]

Irrelevant and a waste of feat if you have necklace with sizing.

Or would you waste a feat just to overcome one step of -2 penalty? A feat starving build needs to spent his feats somewhere else.

Just to point out again:

a feat for negating a -2 penalty, compared to some gold for a necklace which results in more possible damage and they both don't stack with each other.

So a big NO NO to imp Natural Attacks here. It always makes me laugh when I see it in "optimization" builds for unarmed/natural attackers. It makes no sense once you have access to "sizing".


Sizing as in getting bigger? I dont know the item-type... are you playing a colossal human???

Anyway, optimization and monk is not two things that go hand in hand in my view... It all depends on what level of optimization you play on... Tippy's... nobody is even playing monk, but in a magic starved campaign, at low optimization.... 4d8 damage 5+ times per round with pounce... I see very viable. But then again. It depends on the level of optimization!

However, I was just mentioning it, because it can be done. I don't know what hybrid you are building but the monks unarmed attacks are both manufactured and natural for feats as improved natural attacks...

[Telonius]

Irrelevant and a waste of feat if you have necklace with sizing.

Or would you waste a feat just to overcome one step of -2 penalty? A feat starving build needs to spent his feats somewhere else.

Just to point out again:

a feat for negating a -2 penalty, compared to some gold for a necklace which results in more possible damage and they both don't stack with each other.

So a big NO NO to imp Natural Attacks here. It always makes me laugh when I see it in "optimization" builds for unarmed/natural attackers. It makes no sense once you have access to "sizing".

@finaldoom:
his Bite is a secondary attack, normally done at -5. If he takes Multiattack -2.
http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/rg
have a look at "unarmed attack part 1 - 3". should give you all basic info (outside of special feats, that may overcome/change certain thing.. like always^^).

I'm guessing -7 is for the Flurry penalty. -2 to all attacks during the round; natural attack would be included in that.

[emeraldstreak]

So a big NO NO to imp Natural Attacks here...It makes no sense once you have access to "sizing".


If you actually read INA you'll see it is not a size increase. Your natural weapon/unarmed strike remains the same size, but more vicious (and the math just happens to be "as if a size increase").

Secondly, Sizing unarmed strike (say with Necklace of Natural Weapons) will incur attack penalties as if using an oversized weapon. The correct way to do this is magic like Greater Mighty Wallop.

[emeraldstreak]

Im so glad for this site lol, i think i got one more question

Can someone give me the table for twf? Im going ahead and saying he can get his bite after quarterstaff since that works...and for his flurry he can add natural attacks after at the -7 ( the bite since his hands were full of quarterstaff..unless he tells me he kicks them)

He is really wanting to focus on double weapon fighting with that staff >> had to also explain to him he pays double cost for enchantments ( both ends)

Sounds horribly unoptimized but it's his character.

[Dagroth]

Superior Unarmed Strike (Tome of Battle) is the feat you get first, before getting Improved Natural Attack.

Just remember that Improved Natural Attack is for one attack mode only, not all of them.

Also remember that if you want the Necklace of Natural Attacks to affect more than just your Unarmed Strike (which, if I remember right, counts as two attacks) it costs more.

Building a custom item of Greater Mighty Wallop shouldn't be too hard. Make it handwraps, for appropriate flavor.

[Gruftzwerg]

Sizing as in getting bigger? I dont know the item-type... are you playing a colossal human???


Necklace of Natural Attacks + X, with "sizing" weapon enchantment.
The necklace buffs unarmed strike (US) and natural attacks (NA) at the same time. US & NA always count as light weapon, despite their (colossal?^^) size. You just take -2 penalty per step size increase.

edit: to clarify, just your hands are colossal. Your regular size remains unchanged:
Baika no Jutsu (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6kbdlm0bPo)


If you actually read INA you'll see it is not a size increase. Your natural weapon/unarmed strike remains the same size, but more vicious (and the math just happens to be "as if a size increase").

Secondly, Sizing unarmed strike (say with Necklace of Natural Weapons) will incur attack penalties as if using an oversized weapon. The correct way to do this is magic like Greater Mighty Wallop.
while Greater Mighty Wallop is nice on its own, here it is suboptimal. It only counts for bludgeoning, which excludes Claws. While "sizing" implies a penalty it also counts for claws. And if you are worrying about the penalty, PA users deal with much higher penalties. You just need to adjust to the AC of the actual encounter.
The question with INA is, what happens with further size increase? do you treat your new buffed damage as medium size weapon damage on the DMG table and than go up? I don't think so. IMHO (even if it only counts as 1 size bigger) you stack further size increase ontop of your large counting hands and just end up with one -2 penalty step lesser to get colossal size damage. Cause what happens if your colossal size weapons count as "one size bigger"? Nothing! The table ENDS there and the text doesn't provide information for further calculations. So anything calculating more than colossal size damage is homebrew imho (if I am wrong here, pls correct me and a source be very nice pls).


Superior Unarmed Strike (Tome of Battle) is the feat you get first
Superior Unarmed Strike does lesser than a Monk's belt, doesn't stack and costs a feat. I guess that should be of enough info why you should only take it in a magic item starving campaign. Further only of interest if you multiclass out of "unarmed strike"-progressing classes. If you have 20 lvl worth of "US" progress, the Monk's Belt and Superior Unarmed Strike become useless.
Take a Monk's Belt: "count as 5 lvl higher monk" (note that all the items & feat talk about "count as XXX higher" so they both increase your base monk lvl and override each other. Further the Monk's Belt also increases your monk AC & movement which the feat doesn't.
Really, unless you play a Vow of Poverty Monk who multiclasses out of monk progress, than and just than you might consider taking this feat..

[finaldooms]

I love how just saying monk generally makes the thread grow quickly lol

Need to check something though..for his attack at lvl one not counting str feats or magic his attack combo ( assuming i dont let him drop the staff) would be
Quarterstaff -4 quarterstaff -8 bite -5?

And if i let him drop the staff it would be
Quarterstaff -4 quarterstaff -8 claw-5 claw -5 bite -5?

[Gruftzwerg]

I love how just saying monk generally makes the thread grow quickly lol

Need to check something though..for his attack at lvl one not counting str feats or magic his attack combo ( assuming i dont let him drop the staff) would be
Quarterstaff -4 quarterstaff -8 bite -5?

And if i let him drop the staff it would be
Quarterstaff -4 quarterstaff -8 claw-5 claw -5 bite -5?

he isn't (or at least shouldn't) using TWF.

"A monk has special options with a quarterstaff":
Means, you can exchange any of your unarmed attacks (even in full attack & flurry) with a blow from the quaterstaff.
He gets -2 flurry penalties on all attacks incl. his naturals:
Quarterstaff/unarmed strike (exchangeable as you like) -2; -2; -7
or with dropped staff:
-2; -2; -7; -7; -7

add multiattack and the "-7"s drop to "-4"s.
At lvl 1 even with multiattack this will be a flurry of misses against any half way decent AC. BaB 0, an ability mod of max 4~5 & no magic to enhance. And I bet he is trying to go for Weapon Finesse, which he can't pick before lvl 3 (requires BaB:+1..), which would cause even more negative impact.

Just to draw a lil picture of what you should be aware of.
At later lvls he might profit for all those extra attacks, but that is totally fine for monks. Monks are limited in their ways to apply and increase damage and there is nothing OP about this.
You should just suggest him to be careful at the low levels that he should adjust (flurry/no flurry) to the encounter as a barb with Power Attack does. You don't just go blindly for max dmg rolls, you keep your chance to hit in mind. ;)

BTW: Flurry & adding secondary NA. IMHO and many in this and other forums believe that RAW it is possible, while some at wizards (the archive and FAQ) tell you otherwise. But since there is not errata to back up their (wizard/faq) POV, it's not more worth that what anyone else says.^^

[finaldooms]

he isn't (or at least shouldn't) using TWF.

"A monk has special options with a quarterstaff":
Means, you can exchange any of your unarmed attacks (even in full attack & flurry) with a blow from the quaterstaff.
He gets -2 flurry penalties on all attacks incl. his naturals:
Quarterstaff/unarmed strike (exchangeable as you like) -2; -2; -7
or with dropped staff:
-2; -2; -7; -7; -7

add multiattack and the "-7"s drop to "-4"s.
At lvl 1 even with multiattack this will be a flurry of misses against any half way decent AC. BaB 0, an ability mod of max 4~5 & no magic to enhance. And I bet he is trying to go for Weapon Finesse, which he can't pick before lvl 3 (requires BaB:+1..), which would cause even more negative impact.

Just to draw a lil picture of what you should be aware of.
At later lvls he might profit for all those extra attacks, but that is totally fine for monks. Monks are limited in their ways to apply and increase damage and there is nothing OP about this.
You should just suggest him to be careful at the low levels that he should adjust (flurry/no flurry) to the encounter as a barb with Power Attack does. You don't just go blindly for max dmg rolls, you keep your chance to hit in mind. ;)

BTW: Flurry & adding secondary NA. IMHO and many in this and other forums believe that RAW it is possible, while some at wizards (the archive and FAQ) tell you otherwise. But since there is not errata to back up their (wizard/faq) POV, it's not more worth that what anyone else says.^^

Honestly i ried talking him out of half dragon. In the first place, and i knew with flurry it would ne the -2 ( aka use the chart) i just needed to know for when he just wants to not flurry cause i feel he will alot

[Gruftzwerg]

Honestly i ried talking him out of half dragon. In the first place, and i knew with flurry it would ne the -2 ( aka use the chart) i just needed to know for when he just wants to not flurry cause i feel he will alot

maybe try to convince him into a monk (1-2) warlock (3-4), enlightened fist (to progress Eldritch Blast, invocations and monk unarmed strike) build.

He could take Eldritch Claws (feat: lets you add Eldritch Blast dmg on unarmed strike. gives 2 claw attacks). If you than go Beast Strike to use Eldritch Claws as unarmed strike, you get:

Beast Strike= (Eldritch Claws) + unarmed strike
= (unarmed strike + eldritch blast) + unarmed stike
= 2xunarmed stike + eldritch blast.

Beast Strike counts as unarmed strike and is flurry-able.

Than he takes Eldritch Glaive (instead of the quarterstaff) and can choose either one of em for the next round (would keep it more simple to track you both of you ;).

On later level he could take Quicken SLA Eldritch Glaive to use 3/day both for an entire round. (and TWF with it, Glaive as main and Beast Strike as offhand with all monk unarmed offhand bonuses)

[Zombimode]

That's actually an "unwritten rule". There's nothing in the text of the Core rules that says you lose a natural attack if that appendage is doing something else. Although you could argue that this should be obvious enough that the designers considered common sense would be clear here.

It may be unwritten but it is applied consistently to Monster statblocks.

[finaldooms]

Honestly i dont like allowing anything higher than la 2 ( no rhd) but he was insist so i figured id let him and see how long he lives.

Since wr are on the topic of attacks

Does twf give an extra attwck for every main hand? Like at lvl 1 he would lvle qs/qs

Then at...whatever lvl bab goes up to 6/1 wouls he have
Qs/qs +qs/qs? Or just qs/qs + qs?
Or does he need the twf feats to get those added attacks? ..the link tobthe twf guide would help

[emeraldstreak]

while Greater Mighty Wallop is nice on its own, here it is suboptimal. It only counts for bludgeoning, which excludes Claws. While "sizing" implies a penalty it also counts for claws. And if you are worrying about the penalty, PA users deal with much higher penalties. You just need to adjust to the AC of the actual encounter.
The question with INA is, what happens with further size increase? do you treat your new buffed damage as medium size weapon damage on the DMG table and than go up? I don't think so. IMHO (even if it only counts as 1 size bigger) you stack further size increase ontop of your large counting hands and just end up with one -2 penalty step lesser to get colossal size damage. Cause what happens if your colossal size weapons count as "one size bigger"? Nothing! The table ENDS there and the text doesn't provide information for further calculations. So anything calculating more than colossal size damage is homebrew imho (if I am wrong here, pls correct me and a source be very nice pls).


All can be answered by rereading the RAW.

Yes, Necklace of Natural Attacks can Size the natural weapon used for Beast Strike (and it's a good idea too because this damage is applied regardless of its attack penalties). However, this is not free - the Necklace costs more for more natural weapons affected. Meanwhile, Beast Strike can be done with claw or slam. Among the highest base damage dice for Beast Strike are a warforged's slam with battlefist (1d8) and a few sources of 1d8 claw damage (ie Feral template). However, claws only add Str x1, while a warforged's or, say, a Warshaper's (if he so wishes) slam is singular and adds x1.5 Str. That won't matter for Finesse (Dex) or Intuitive Attack (Wis) builds, but it does matter for Str builds (example (https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=1133161)).

On Improved Natural Attack - you are confounding two completely different objections:

- is INA a size increase: absolutely NOT (the RAW). There are others like this (ie battlefist).

- is that table the definitive list of all possible damages in the game. Now, apart from that being the flimsiest excuse ever, the answer is too an apparent "No." For example:

Prismasaurus' bite is 8d10 (Huge). Per its entry, it can advance to Gargantuan (16d8 - does not compute for "tablerers"). While advancing, it takes INA (bite) - 24d8 (does not compute times two for tablerers).

[emeraldstreak]

The Unorthodox Flurry feat (Dragon Compendium Volume I, page 109) allows you to flurry with any light weapon.





Glaive


On a side note, the Weapon Aptitude +1 enchantment (Tome of Battle) makes any weapon a special monk weapon.

[Darrin]

Honestly i dont like allowing anything higher than la 2 ( no rhd) but he was insist so i figured id let him and see how long he lives.


I'm curious when the exact moment of "I have made a terrible mistake" will finally sink in. Let us know if/when it happens.



Does twf give an extra attwck for every main hand? Like at lvl 1 he would lvle qs/qs

Then at...whatever lvl bab goes up to 6/1 wouls he have
Qs/qs +qs/qs? Or just qs/qs + qs?
Or does he need the twf feats to get those added attacks? ..the link tobthe twf guide would help

TWF OffHandbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?279079-3-5-The-TWF-OffHandbook).

Briefly:

Every creature may get one offhand attack by using the TWF rules in the PHB. They do not need the TWF feat to do this. However, without the feat, the penalties are huge: -6 primary/-10 offhand. Using a light weapon as your offhand attack reduces both penalties by 2. The offhand attacks are not "mapped" to your primary attack, so getting more primary attacks doesn't give you more offhand attacks. (However, this is a common houserule for some people attempting to "fix" the effectiveness of the TWF line of feats.)

There are two methods to get additional offhand attacks:

1) Take the Improved TWF and Greater TWF feats. This adds a second and third offhand attack respectively, but each with cumulative -5 penalty.

2) Get additional hands. Once you have three or more hands, the Two-Weapon Fighting feat becomes Multi-Weapon Fighting. Each additional "hand" after the first hand counts as an offhand. If a creature has 4 hands, then they have 1 primary and 3 offhands. Each of these offhands gets one attack with MWF. They each gain a second and third attack with Improved MWF and Greater MWF.

[Gruftzwerg]

- is INA a size increase: absolutely NOT (the RAW). There are others like this (ie battlefist).

- is that table the definitive list of all possible damages in the game. Now, apart from that being the flimsiest excuse ever, the answer is too an apparent "No." For example:

Prismasaurus' bite is 8d10 (Huge). Per its entry, it can advance to Gargantuan (16d8 - does not compute for "tablerers"). While advancing, it takes INA (bite) - 24d8 (does not compute times two for tablerers).

Prismasaurus is an exception to the normal rule on its own and provides its own information how to handle it, while INA fails at that.

If I size my fist/claw to colossus size and have INA, how will you (or the DM) determine the dmg beside from some homebrew rules? Can you provide any info how to handle further "count as one size bigger" is handled for colossus size?
I guess not and if that is the chase, than you just avoided some -2 penalties with INA, compared to someone who did just straight go for "sizing" to colossal size.

So, unless you can provide me official damage infos, how to handle damage size categories (counting) bigger than colossus, I still say that INA is crap and not worth the feat.

[emeraldstreak]

Prismasaurus is an exception to the normal rule on its own and provides its own information how to handle it, while INA fails at that.

If I size my fist/claw to colossus size and have INA, how will you (or the DM) determine the dmg beside from some homebrew rules? Can you provide any info how to handle further "count as one size bigger" is handled for colossus size?
I guess not and if that is the chase, than you just avoided some -2 penalties with INA, compared to someone who did just straight go for "sizing" to colossal size.

So, unless you can provide me official damage infos, how to handle damage size categories (counting) bigger than colossus, I still say that INA is crap and not worth the feat.

Where are these rules that handle the Prismasaurus as exception? I don't see them. This means it defaults to normal rules and yet its attack grows 8d10 to 24d8. Or do you refuse to admit the Prismasaurus' bite increases damage when it becomes Gargantuan and when it takes INA(bite)?

[Gruftzwerg]

Where are these rules that handle the Prismasaurus as exception? I don't see them. This means it defaults to normal rules and yet its attack grows 8d10 to 24d8. Or do you refuse to admit the Prismasaurus' bite increases damage when it becomes Gargantuan and when it takes INA(bite)?

The exception is that it's bite damage doesn't seems to be a standard value as it normally would been found in INA. Or do you see how to handle 8d10? Not 1d10, 8d10! I can't find any in the several descriptions of INA I found so far.


The damage for one of the creature's natural attack forms increases by one step, as if the creature's size had increased by one category: 1d2, 1d3, 1d4, 1d6, 1d8, 2d6, 3d6, 4d6, 6d6, 8d6, 12d6. A weapon or attack that deals 1d10 points of damage increases as follows: 1d10, 2d8, 3d8, 4d8, 6d8, 8d8, 12d8.


Sure, the Prismasaurus can become Gargantuan, and by regular game logic he becomes stronger. But unless you can provide flat values or a formula by how much he gets stronger ( /deals more damge), you are stuck to it's base damage because of "lacking" rules.. Sure in most cases the DM could housrule something, but that doesn't change the fact these values would be theoretical and not official.


And now back to my initial argument:
Unless you can provide damage values for sizes over colossal, stacking INA ontop of "sizing" it ain't worth it, cause you only reduce -2 size penalties and are stuck at max colossal damage. There isn't any category to look up higher than colossal. So once you can have colossal size, IFA becomes useless besides from the prevented -2 to hit step (wow, +2 to hit ..).

[finaldooms]

I'm curious when the exact moment of "I have made a terrible mistake" will finally sink in. Let us know if/when it happens.



TWF OffHandbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?279079-3-5-The-TWF-OffHandbook).

Briefly:

Every creature may get one offhand attack by using the TWF rules in the PHB. They do not need the TWF feat to do this. However, without the feat, the penalties are huge: -6 primary/-10 offhand. Using a light weapon as your offhand attack reduces both penalties by 2. The offhand attacks are not "mapped" to your primary attack, so getting more primary attacks doesn't give you more offhand attacks. (However, this is a common houserule for some people attempting to "fix" the effectiveness of the TWF line of feats.)

There are two methods to get additional offhand attacks:

1) Take the Improved TWF and Greater TWF feats. This adds a second and third offhand attack respectively, but each with cumulative -5 penalty.

2) Get additional hands. Once you have three or more hands, the Two-Weapon Fighting feat becomes Multi-Weapon Fighting. Each additional "hand" after the first hand counts as an offhand. If a creature has 4 hands, then they have 1 primary and 3 offhands. Each of these offhands gets one attack with MWF. They each gain a second and third attack with Improved MWF and Greater MWF.

Thank yoy very much! ! And its probably either guna be after this trapped hallway..or when something actually hits him- .- i mean really 11hp at ecl 4 is easy to kill even if i dont try( im not tryn for the record but a beginning orc hits nearly that hard)

[emeraldstreak]

Sure, the Prismasaurus can become Gargantuan, and by regular game logic he becomes stronger.

Wrong. It becomes stronger by RAW: go read the table for size advancement Ability adjustments, look for the Strength column. Not advancing Strength is homebrew.



But unless you can provide flat values or a formula by how much he gets stronger ( /deals more damge), you are stuck to it's base damage because of "lacking" rules.. Sure in most cases the DM could housrule something, but that doesn't change the fact these values would be theoretical and not official.


Wrong.

Increased size also affects a creature’s damage values.
This is RAW. A DM must advance the damage dice of the creature, otherwise he's homebrewing.

By your "logic" monsters/weapons that do
2d2 or more d2
2d3 or more d3
3d4 or more d4
3d10 or more d10
2d12 or more d12
can neither INA nor advance per RAW, which is, again, homebrew.

Finally, the RAW tables clearly show the progression for increasing damage dice, it's by 1/2 followed by 1/3, repeated over and over.

[SirNibbles]

I love how just saying monk generally makes the thread grow quickly lol

Need to check something though..for his attack at lvl one not counting str feats or magic his attack combo ( assuming i dont let him drop the staff) would be
Quarterstaff -4 quarterstaff -8 bite -5?

And if i let him drop the staff it would be
Quarterstaff -4 quarterstaff -8 claw-5 claw -5 bite -5?

Quick Draw allows you to draw a weapon as a free action. Would I be able to do Longsword/Longsword, drop the sword, switch to a rapier, do Rapier/Rapier, then Dagger/Dagger?

[SirNibbles]

On a side note, the Weapon Aptitude +1 enchantment (Tome of Battle) makes any weapon a special monk weapon.

"A wielder who has feats that affect the use of a particular type of weapon, such as Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, or the like, can apply the benefits of those feats to any weapon that has the aptitude quality."

Flurry of Blows is not a feat. Aptitude does not apply.

[Dagroth]

Quick Draw allows you to draw a weapon as a free action. Would I be able to do Longsword/Longsword, drop the sword, switch to a rapier, do Rapier/Rapier, then Dagger/Dagger?

No.

Quick Draw does not give you extra attacks. TWF only reduces the penalty for attacking with an off-hand weapon.

You only get one attack with your off-hand unless you have Greater TWF or Greater MWF (or the Superior version of same).

If you have a base attack of 6 and the Quick Draw feat, you could attack with your longsword, drop it and then do your second attack in the round with the rapier... why you would want to is beyond the scope of my answers.

If you have natural attacks, then you can attack with one, primary natural attack (at -5 to hit) in any round where you do a full attack with weapons. If your Primary Natural Attack form is Claw, then you do that. If your Primary Natural Attack form is Bite, then you do that. If you have the Multiattack Feat, then you are only at a -2 to hit with your natural attack.

If you do a Flurry of Blows, you are at -2 to every attack in that round... including a natural attack (if you have one) or an Attack of Opportunity. Higher level Monks reduce or Remove this penalty.

If you have Two Weapon Fighting, no weapons in hand and do a Flurry of Blows you can get 3 attacks, but they will all be at -4 (-2 for two "light weapons" and -2 for Flurry). If you follow up with a Bite, that will be at -7 (-2 for Flurry, -5 for Natural Attack in a round you used "weapons").

There is no enchantment that makes a weapon count as a Monk Weapon, but there is at least one class that makes all Martial Weapons into Monk Weapons (The Shou Disciple, from Unapproachable East). There are also a couple of Feats to make specific weapons count as Monk Weapons... but I can't recall them at the moment. I know one is for the Longspear and another is for the Two-bladed Sword.

The damage table for increasing size seems like a very logical progression.

1d6 -> 2d6 -> 3d6 -> 4d6 -> 6d6 -> 8d6 -> and then it breaks down.

If you start with 1d10 it goes, 8d6 -> 12d6
If you start with 1d12 it goes, 8d6 -> 10d6 -> 16d6
If you start with 1d20 it goes, 8d6 -> 12d6 -> 16d6 -> 24d6

I prefer to think that the 10d6 entry is a typo and make it 12d6.

At that point, you can see it goes +1, +1, +1, +1, +2, +2, +4, +4, +8

Clearly, the next logical increase is to 32d6, followed by 48d6 and then 64d6 (and then 96d6). Mathematics demands these results.

[emeraldstreak]

Flurry of Blows is not a feat. Aptitude does not apply.

But Unorthodox Flurry or any number of similar Eberron/DC feats do.

[Gruftzwerg]

Wrong. It becomes stronger by RAW: go read the table for size advancement Ability adjustments, look for the Strength column. Not advancing Strength is homebrew.
I was talking about "damage dice" since we started with INA and SUS and not about ability adjustment.




This is RAW. A DM must advance the damage dice of the creature, otherwise he's homebrewing.

By your "logic" monsters/weapons that do
2d2 or more d2
2d3 or more d3
3d4 or more d4
3d10 or more d10
2d12 or more d12
can neither INA nor advance per RAW, which is, again, homebrew.

Finally, the RAW tables clearly show the progression for increasing damage dice, it's by 1/2 followed by 1/3, repeated over and over.
sry, but imho what you say is RAI and not RAW. RAW the feats doesn't involve the DM anywhere in the text. Besides, there are barely thing that forces the DM as per text to do something and this is not one of em.
And the text doesn't imply that the table is ongoing.

So, if I use sizing to increase my hands/claws to colossal, to which size category does my damage change with INA? next bigger than colossal? there is nothing bigger and no more bonus to get.


A monk 20 has no use for Superior Unarmed Strike, cause he is already at the end of progress (lvl 20 here).

Same with colossal size as end of line. If I increase the size with "sizing", there is nothing left to do for INA. Anything that you try with further size increasing or counting wont work as per RAW. There is no rule/information provided that would back that up imho.

And by the same RAW logic, yeah, those monsters with odd values can't make use INA., cause the info isn't provided and no text guideline how to do it. You need to go RAI and homebrew those values and need DM approve. I know, the pattern how the damage changes is easy to see/guess, but that doesn't change the fact that the text doesn't give the DM the duty neither the info to build/calculate those values.

[emeraldstreak]

So, if I use sizing to increase my hands/claws to colossal, to which size category does my damage change with INA? next bigger than colossal? there is nothing bigger and no more bonus to get.


When a Medium creature takes INA, its natural attack stays medium size. When a Colossal creature takes INA, its natural attack stays colossal size. INA does NOT increase the size category of the natural attack, as very clearly stated in the RAW of the feat in plain English.

The fact that the attack becomes more vicious, and that the meta-expression of this viciousness happens to follow the mathematical progression that is also shared by other progressions in the game is of no consequence to said other progressions.



sry, but imho what you say is RAI and not RAW. RAW the feats doesn't involve the DM anywhere in the text. Besides, there are barely thing that forces the DM as per text to do something and this is not one of em.


If you don't size increase the damage dice of a monster when it advances in size, you are homebrewing. As simple as that.

[Melcar]

So, if I use sizing to increase my hands/claws to colossal, to which size category does my damage change with INA? next bigger than colossal? there is nothing bigger and no more bonus to get.

Colossal +, as per the Epic Level Handbook. Both Force and Prismatic Dragons are bigger than colossal at their highest age category.

[SirNibbles]

No.

Quick Draw does not give you extra attacks. TWF only reduces the penalty for attacking with an off-hand weapon.

You only get one attack with your off-hand unless you have Greater TWF or Greater MWF (or the Superior version of same).

If you have a base attack of 6 and the Quick Draw feat, you could attack with your longsword, drop it and then do your second attack in the round with the rapier... why you would want to is beyond the scope of my answers.

If you have natural attacks, then you can attack with one, primary natural attack (at -5 to hit) in any round where you do a full attack with weapons. If your Primary Natural Attack form is Claw, then you do that. If your Primary Natural Attack form is Bite, then you do that. If you have the Multiattack Feat, then you are only at a -2 to hit with your natural attack.

If you do a Flurry of Blows, you are at -2 to every attack in that round... including a natural attack (if you have one) or an Attack of Opportunity. Higher level Monks reduce or Remove this penalty.

If you have Two Weapon Fighting, no weapons in hand and do a Flurry of Blows you can get 3 attacks, but they will all be at -4 (-2 for two "light weapons" and -2 for Flurry). If you follow up with a Bite, that will be at -7 (-2 for Flurry, -5 for Natural Attack in a round you used "weapons").


I was joking to prove a point that you can't suddenly use a limb again, even if it's a Natural Weapon, just because you drop your held weapon.

_

It would appear that you can do a full attack and then use all of your Natural Weapons as secondary attacks, according to this ROTG article, plus several monster stat blocks (though I admit monster stat blocks and example builds are often wrong).

http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20070403a

It also states that if you use a hand to make a weapon/UAS, you can't use that same hand for a Natural Attack (like a claw or slam).

[finaldooms]

I was joking to prove a point that you can't suddenly use a limb again
It also states that if you use a hand to make a weapon/UAS, you can't use that same hand for a Natural Attack (like a claw or slam).

This is why i told him ( i think i finally talked him out of the quarterstaff) to at some point in time just tell me for his uas he is always kicking or something that isnt a punch lol so he can still claw claw bite

[Dagroth]

I was joking to prove a point that you can't suddenly use a limb again, even if it's a Natural Weapon, just because you drop your held weapon.

_

It would appear that you can do a full attack and then use all of your Natural Weapons as secondary attacks, according to this ROTG article, plus several monster stat blocks (though I admit monster stat blocks and example builds are often wrong).

http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20070403a

It also states that if you use a hand to make a weapon/UAS, you can't use that same hand for a Natural Attack (like a claw or slam).

That article is garbage, IMHO, and contradicts almost every monster stat block that shows options for a monster with natural attacks to use a weapon (like Lizardmen, for example).

[finaldooms]

Tad bit ironic >> but the sample half dragon actually helped with attacks since its using a double weapon
Itbwould be wp,wp,bite so no free hands..or its claw claw bite putting weapon down

[Gruftzwerg]

Colossal +, as per the Epic Level Handbook. Both Force and Prismatic Dragons are bigger than colossal at their highest age category.

which is an exception (rule of its own) to the regular sizes. For (I guess) almost anything else you are limited to the regular size rules. The table + text ends at colossal.
And even if there are sizes bigger than colossal. Unless you can provide rules how to handle their damage, or a guideline how the DM should rule em (happens here and there in the rule books), most creatures are struck to colossal size damage. And if you have odd damage values not represented in INA, the feat fails to work. Nothing in the text implies DM work, but you need it to make a bunch of scenarios possible.
If you go strict by RAW, INA is a really poorly written feat.

Does Epic Level Handbook offer any special size information for colossal+ that I fail to see? I am looking but beside the mentioned Dragons I can't find any more info about it. But even if it did, unless it claim supremacy over all other books about "size" and suppresses the regular rules (PHB, DMG & I believe MM have "size" rules ), it would only work in the epic level vacuum world..

[zergling.exe]

Colossal +, as per the Epic Level Handbook. Both Force and Prismatic Dragons are bigger than colossal at their highest age category.


which is an exception (rule of its own) to the regular sizes. For (I guess) almost anything else you are limited to the regular size rules. The table + text ends at colossal.
And even if there are sizes bigger than colossal. Unless you can provide rules how to handle their damage, or a guideline how the DM should rule em (happens here and there in the rule books), most creatures are struck to colossal size damage. And if you have odd damage values not represented in INA, the feat fails to work. Nothing in the text implies DM work, but you need it to make a bunch of scenarios possible.
If you go strict by RAW, INA is a really poorly written feat.

Does Epic Level Handbook offer any special size information for colossal+ that I fail to see? I am looking but beside the mentioned Dragons I can't find any more info about it. But even if it did, unless it claim supremacy over all other books about "size" and suppresses the regular rules (PHB, DMG & I believe MM have "size" rules ), it would only work in the epic level vacuum world..

Colossal+ is further explained in the Draconomicon (and thus updated to 3.5) as being a virtual size category for epic dragons that have reached the colossal size. The only way to achieve this virtual size category is to be a dragon of colossal size that gains the appropriate number of HD for its type. The only benefits of this virtual size are included on pages 99-100 of the Draconomicon. Any rules from the ELH are obsolete.

[Gruftzwerg]

Colossal+ is further explained in the Draconomicon (and thus updated to 3.5) as being a virtual size category for epic dragons that have reached the colossal size. The only way to achieve this virtual size category is to be a dragon of colossal size that gains the appropriate number of HD for its type. The only benefits of this virtual size are included on pages 99-100 of the Draconomicon. Any rules from the ELH are obsolete.

thx for the info =)

so we have virtual size categories for a bunch of dragons that fit into the restriction (the right dragon type and the proper age).
Unless someone else can provide other info for"real" size categories (for all other races) above colossal, I still stand by my initial argument: INA is not worth the feat. (unless you are in a low-lvl & low-magic campaign, where it may come in handy).

[Melcar]

which is an exception (rule of its own) to the regular sizes. For (I guess) almost anything else you are limited to the regular size rules. The table + text ends at colossal.
And even if there are sizes bigger than colossal. Unless you can provide rules how to handle their damage, or a guideline how the DM should rule em (happens here and there in the rule books), most creatures are struck to colossal size damage. And if you have odd damage values not represented in INA, the feat fails to work. Nothing in the text implies DM work, but you need it to make a bunch of scenarios possible.
If you go strict by RAW, INA is a really poorly written feat.

Does Epic Level Handbook offer any special size information for colossal+ that I fail to see? I am looking but beside the mentioned Dragons I can't find any more info about it. But even if it did, unless it claim supremacy over all other books about "size" and suppresses the regular rules (PHB, DMG & I believe MM have "size" rules ), it would only work in the epic level vacuum world..

Specifically under the epic dragons, there is a table, that shows the colossal + damage dice. Page 181 in ELH. That might be specific to the dragons, since they are the only things bigger than colossal, but non-te less there is a rule legal size bigger than colossal, which have printed damage dice.

But let my just say, that I dont understand why the feat isnt giving you enought. Looking at theprogression of a level 20 monk from mediu to colossal, is four steps. There are six steps in the feat. So not unly can you look at it for colossal damage, but also for colossal + and ++.

What I'm saying is that a colossal + monk damages: 16d8

[zergling.exe]

Specifically under the epic dragons, there is a table, that shows the colossal + damage dice. Page 181 in ELH. That might be specific to the dragons, since they are the only things bigger than colossal, but non-te less there is a rule legal size bigger than colossal, which have printed damage dice.

But let my just say, that I dont understand why the feat isnt giving you enought. Looking at theprogression of a level 20 monk from mediu to colossal, is four steps. There are six steps in the feat. So not unly can you look at it for colossal damage, but also for colossal + and ++.

What I'm saying is that a colossal + monk damages: 16d8

As I said before, ELH material on Colossal+ is obsoleted by Draconomicon, which has specific listings for Colossal+ dragon natural weapons. Thus, Colossal+ doesn't increase damage by any formula, it merely sets dragon's natural weapons to a certain amount of dice. So the difference between a Colossal and a Colossal+ dragon's unarmed strike is N/A, because it is not changed. And you would have to be an epic dragon to even get to Colossal+ size, as it is a virtual size existing only for Colossal dragons.

Colossal++ is flat out homebrew with no RAW support.

[Melcar]

As I said before, ELH material on Colossal+ is obsoleted by Draconomicon, which has specific listings for Colossal+ dragon natural weapons. Thus, Colossal+ doesn't increase damage by any formula, it merely sets dragon's natural weapons to a certain amount of dice. So the difference between a Colossal and a Colossal+ dragon's unarmed strike is N/A, because it is not changed. And you would have to be an epic dragon to even get to Colossal+ size, as it is a virtual size existing only for Colossal dragons.

Colossal++ is flat out homebrew with no RAW support.

Does it specifically say, that draconomicon overrites the epic dragon entry in ELH?

Anyways, you can still just look at the feat. it goes from 1d10, 2d8, 3d8, 4d8, 6d8, 8d8 and 12d8, since monk does 2d10, we double the initial dice to 2d10, 4d8, 6d8, 8d8, 12d8, next step would be 8d8, thus 16d8.

[zergling.exe]

Does it specifically say, that draconomicon overrites the epic dragon entry in ELH?

Anyways, you can still just look at the feat. it goes from 1d10, 2d8, 3d8, 4d8, 6d8, 8d8 and 12d8, since monk does 2d10, we double the initial dice to 2d10, 4d8, 6d8, 8d8, 12d8, next step would be 8d8, thus 16d8.

Updated material takes precedence over the original, go ask in the RAW thread about girallon's blessing. It changed almost completely from 3.0 to 3.5, and even if you say you are using the 3.0 version they will only give answers about the 3.5 version. :smallmad:

Extrapolating is leaving RAW territory. RAW does not tell you what to do when you do not have a value that is listed. And again, Colossal+ exists only for a dragon's natural weapons outlined on page 100 of the Draconomicon, it doesn't affect it's unarmed strike, and non-true dragons (including Dragonwrought Kobolds since they don't advance by RHD) can't attain that virtual size.

And people are going to jump on me for saying Dragonwrought Kobolds aren't true dragons aren't they?

[Melcar]

Updated material takes precedence over the original, go ask in the RAW thread about girallon's blessing. It changed almost completely from 3.0 to 3.5, and even if you say you are using the 3.0 version they will only give answers about the 3.5 version. :smallmad:

Extrapolating is leaving RAW territory. RAW does not tell you what to do when you do not have a value that is listed. And again, Colossal+ exists only for a dragon's natural weapons outlined on page 100 of the Draconomicon, it doesn't affect it's unarmed strike, and non-true dragons (including Dragonwrought Kobolds since they don't advance by RHD) can't attain that virtual size.

And people are going to jump on me for saying Dragonwrought Kobolds aren't true dragons aren't they?

Remember that things that arent updated, still applies in their 3.0 form. Its not deleted from the game if its not updated!

Well deducing things that aren't in writing, based on other rules and examples are well within raw. The books would be thousands of pages long, if they actually had to write down every possibility of combination of feats and abilities and what supersedes what and what not...

When looking under monk, it has a table that tells you how much a large monk damages. That shows a level 20 monk to do 4d8 damage. When looking at the feat, that is the same as one step up from 1d10, except a monk does not 1d10, but 2d10, therefore its not 2d8, but 4d8. So it actually follows the feat line of steps except doubled.

[Dagroth]

Does it specifically say, that draconomicon overrites the epic dragon entry in ELH?

Anyways, you can still just look at the feat. it goes from 1d10, 2d8, 3d8, 4d8, 6d8, 8d8 and 12d8, since monk does 2d10, we double the initial dice to 2d10, 4d8, 6d8, 8d8, 12d8, next step would be 8d8, thus 16d8.

There is a table in the Arms and Equipment Manual that shows damage progression for a very large variety of base damage. That's where I got my numbers.

[SirNibbles]

That article is garbage, IMHO, and contradicts almost every monster stat block that shows options for a monster with natural attacks to use a weapon (like Lizardmen, for example).

Lizardfolk stat block excerpt

Full Attack: 2 claws +2 melee (1d4+1) and bite +0 melee (1d4); or club +2 melee (1d6+1) and bite +0 melee (1d4); or javelin +1 ranged (1d6+1)

_

I'm just going to go through the Monster Manual and see how many follow this rule.

Angel, Astral Deva
Full Attack: +3 heavy mace of disruption +21/+16/+11 melee (1d8+12 plus stun) or slam +18 melee (1d8+9)

Angel, Planetar
Full Attack: +3 greatsword +23/+18/+13 melee (3d6+13/19–20) or slam +20 melee (2d8+10)

Angel, Solar
Full Attack: +5 dancing greatsword +35/+30/+25/+20 melee (3d6+18/19–20) or +2 composite longbow (+5 Str bonus) +28/+23/+18/+13 ranged (2d6+7/×3 plus slaying) or slam +30 melee 2d8+13)

Hound Archon
Full Attack: Bite +8 melee (1d8+2) and slam +3 melee (1d4+1); or greatsword +8/+3 melee (2d6+3/19–20) and bite +3 melee (1d8+1)

Hound Archon Hero, 11th-Level Paladin
Full Attack: +2 cold iron greatsword +25/+20/+15/+10 melee (2d6+9/19–20) and bite +17 melee (1d8+2); or bite +22 melee (1d8+5) and slam +17 melee (1d4+2)

Marilith
Full Attack: Primary longsword +25/+20/+15/+10 melee (2d6+9/19–20) and 5 longswords +25 melee (2d6+4/19–20) and tail slap +22 melee (4d6+4); or 6 slams +24 melee (1d8+9) and tail slap 22 melee (4d6+4)

Bearded Devil (Barbazu)
Full Attack: Glaive +9/+4 melee (1d10+3 plus infernal wound) or 2 claws +8 melee (1d6+2)

Wow! Literally every single Monster so far can't use a limb to both use a weapon and make a Natural Weapon attack! I'm only 50 pages in though so maybe they change the rules after that point. If you want me to go through the rest of the book to prove wrong the claims you made without posting any sources, I'd be happy to do so.

_


This is why i told him ( i think i finally talked him out of the quarterstaff) to at some point in time just tell me for his uas he is always kicking or something that isn't a punch so he can still claw claw bite

=)


Tad bit ironic >> but the sample half dragon actually helped with attacks since its using a double weapon
It would be wp,wp,bite so no free hands..or its claw claw bite putting weapon down

=)

If you let him take the Dragon Tail feat from Races of the Dragon, page 98 (which requires the Dragonblood Subtype) he would get a tail attack as well. If he's going Human Halfdragon he can take Silverbrow Human as his base race to gain the Dragonblood Subtype if having the Dragon Type doesn't qualify him for those feats.

[Gruftzwerg]

When looking under monk, it has a table that tells you how much a large monk damages. That shows a level 20 monk to do 4d8 damage. When looking at the feat, that is the same as one step up from 1d10, except a monk does not 1d10, but 2d10, therefore its not 2d8, but 4d8. So it actually follows the feat line of steps except doubled.

Just to make it clear, that is how most tables will play it out (RAI) and my group is no different. But "if you go strict RAW", you aren't allowed to do this. The feat and even the Arms & Equipment text don't give you the permission/duty to do this. They say, "take these values and use them", not change em. Really poorly written rules.

[Dagroth]

Lizardfolk stat block excerpt

Full Attack: 2 claws +2 melee (1d4+1) and bite +0 melee (1d4); or club +2 melee (1d6+1) and bite +0 melee (1d4); or javelin +1 ranged (1d6+1).

You clearly missed the point.
The article clearly said that a monster with natural attacks could do a full attack with Improved Unarmed Strike/Flurry of Blows and then use every single one of its natural attacks in the same full attack.

In other words, it said that if you gave the Lizardfolk above the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, it's Full Attack would be "1 Unarmed Strike +2 melee (1d6+1), 2 Claws +2 melee (1d4+1) and bite +0 melee (1d4)"

This is counter to the idea that Improved Unarmed Strike (and Flurry of Blows) replaces manufactured weapons in an attack routine.

Also notice the Marlith's attack routine:


Marilith
Full Attack: Primary longsword +25/+20/+15/+10 melee (2d6+9/19–20) and 5 longswords +25 melee (2d6+4/19–20) and tail slap +22 melee (4d6+4); or 6 slams +24 melee (1d8+9) and tail slap 22 melee (4d6+4)

They don't give an attack routine if the Marilith has lost some of its longswords... why? Because it is established that a monster can only use its secondary natural attack (in this case, tail slap) when it is doing a full attack routine with manufactured weapons. This is because using manufactured weapons (or Improved Unarmed Strike) gains iterative attacks and natural attacks do not.

If the same Marilith had Greater Multiweapon Fighting, the 5 longswords would be +25/+20 melee... but unarmed it would still just be 6 slams.

[Melcar]

Just to make it clear, that is how most tables will play it out (RAI) and my group is no different. But "if you go strict RAW", you aren't allowed to do this. The feat and even the Arms & Equipment text don't give you the permission/duty to do this. They say, "take these values and use them", not change em. Really poorly written rules.

Following a patern, derived from RAW is RAW. Your strickt RAW interpretation would mean not giving more gold to a level 100 than to a level 40... Since the table doesn't advance that far! Anyways... use it how you will I personally consider it RAW, and just because it has not been printed for colossal monk, doesn't mean the feat doesn't works. The table in A&EG, doen't even have 2d10 damage as per the monk. Does that mean that the monk cant be increased at all? No, it mean that you use the table as a baseline. Again we would use the 1d10, and go 5 steps for the virtuel colossal + size, and the double it. Pesonally that RAW-enough.

[Dagroth]

Following a patern, derived from RAW is RAW. Your strickt RAW interpretation would mean not giving more gold to a level 100 than to a level 30... Since the table doesn't advance that far! Anyways... use it how you will I personally consider it RAW, and just because it has not been printed for colossal monk, doesn't mean the feat doesn't works. The table in A&EG, doen't even have 2d10 damage as per the monk. Does that mean that the monk cant be increased at all? No, it mean that you use the table as a baseline. Again we would use the 1d10, and go 5 steps for the virtuel colossal + size, and the double it. Pesonally that RAW-enough.

I disagree. I think you would use the table entry in the A&EG for the 1d20.

[Melcar]

I disagree. I think you would use the table entry in the A&EG for the 1d20.

That doesn't follow the stated 3.5 damage of the monk, nor the stated 3.5 damage for large monk.

[Gruftzwerg]

Following a patern, derived from RAW is RAW.

RAW has to give you the permission/duty to follow a pattern. But in chase of INA, it gives you numbers and a table to follow. The text doesn't say, "extend the table in the same pattern". Compared to other rules which explicitly say it when you have to extend the table.

See the mess of 3.5 RAW as it is. That's the reason why most (if not all) play RAI. And most people who think that they play RAW, can even read RAW and distinguish it from RAI. Cause reading RAW has rules on its own. You need to become a wording lawyer in the first place to be able to read RAW.

[SirNibbles]

You clearly missed the point.
The article clearly said that a monster with natural attacks could do a full attack with Improved Unarmed Strike/Flurry of Blows and then use every single one of its natural attacks in the same full attack.

In other words, it said that if you gave the Lizardfolk above the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, it's Full Attack would be "1 Unarmed Strike +2 melee (1d6+1), 2 Claws +2 melee (1d4+1) and bite +0 melee (1d4)"

This is counter to the idea that Improved Unarmed Strike (and Flurry of Blows) replaces manufactured weapons in an attack routine.

Also notice the Marlith's attack routine:



They don't give an attack routine if the Marilith has lost some of its longswords... why? Because it is established that a monster can only use its secondary natural attack (in this case, tail slap) when it is doing a full attack routine with manufactured weapons. This is because using manufactured weapons (or Improved Unarmed Strike) gains iterative attacks and natural attacks do not.

If the same Marilith had Greater Multiweapon Fighting, the 5 longswords would be +25/+20 melee... but unarmed it would still just be 6 slams.

Yes, it can use every single one of its Natural Weapon attacks, except for those that use limbs already used. Let's go back to the MM. (I'd previously only shown examples where Manufactured Weapons and Natural Weapons such as claws and slams shared the same limb since I thought that is what you were arguing).

Horned Devil (Cornugon)
Full Attack: Spiked chain +25/+20/+15 melee (2d6+15 plus stun) and bite +22 melee (2d8+5) and tail +22 melee (2d6+5 plus infernal wound); or 2 claws +24 melee (2d6+10) and bite + 22 melee (2d8+5) and tail +22 melee (2d6+5 plus infernal wound)

Ice Devil (Gelugon)
Full Attack: Spear +20/+15/+10 melee (2d6+9/×3 plus slow) and bite +14 melee (2d6+3) and tail +14 melee (3d6+3 plus slow); or 2 claws +19 melee (1d10+6) and bite +14 melee (2d6+3) and tail +14 melee (3d6+3 plus slow)

These two examples show it perfectly- they can't use their claws because those were used for weapon attacks (Two Handed Weapons) but they can use all their other Natural Weapons. Let's keep going.

Here's another example of the same limb being unavailable, this time with both being Natural Weapons:

Avoral (whose claws and wings are part of the same limb)
Attack: Claw +13 melee (2d6+2) or wing +13 melee (2d8+2)
Full Attack: 2 claws +13 melee (2d6+2) or 2 wings +13 melee (2d8+2)

Going back to multiple types of Natural Weapons combined with a Manufactured Weapon.

Troglodyte
Full Attack: Club +1 melee (1d6) and claw –1 melee (1d4) and bite –1 melee (1d4); or 2 claws +1 melee (1d4) and bite –1 melee (1d4); or javelin +1 ranged (1d6)

Troll Hunter
2 claws +16 melee (1d6+7) and bite +11 melee (1d6+3); or +1 battleaxe +17/+12 melee (2d6+8/×3) and claw +12 melee (1d6+3) and bite +12 (1d6+3); or javelin +10 ranged (1d8+7)