New toon for campaign looking for help (DND 3.5 all 3.5 no 3rd party AND...)

[Rerednaw]

First a little background and some campaign notes....and sorry it's kind of long.

DM runs custom campaign with a lot of house rules. He tends to immediately adapt follow-up encounters after we come up with solutions or new ideas or just get new abilities.

Experience for each encounter is exactly the same whether you are 1st level or 7th level.

For example when a new player brought in a Dragonfire Adept into the game at my suggestion, the DM ruled that breath weapons suffer from miss chance.

When my core wizard finally was allowed to go non-core and picked up a reserve feat (fiery burst) we faced endless waves of fire resist or immune creatures inside an active volcano.

At level 1, my core-only wizard (had to roll for gold too) ran into 11 encounters over 4 days with no sleep no rest and far away from anywhere to resupply. By 5th level he had managed to survive and by not buying anything amassed a total net worth of 300 gp. So slightly undergeared.

NPC spell casting was all but non-existent.
Magic items are not available for purchase.

I took some crafting feats to address the issue of no magic items...and I had 3 days to craft in 2 game months. He had just started on his Blessed Book when he died.

This campaign is really starting to feel like 'rocks fall you die' but even though everyone has re-rolled a new toon at least once (one person is on his 4th character now) I have not given up.

Our party is faced with an epic 'world-ending' quest. There are NO high level NPCs anywhere so it is all up to us.
For example as a consequence of our trying to find some help and do research the main capital city of the entire world was ravaged by...CR 1/2 skeletons and zombies led by a ghoul. The town guards were unable to hold off what seemed like to be several dozen of them which ended up wiping out the city. We did what we could but it was hard at level 1 to defend the entire city in the middle of the night with no spells or resources. Half the party died in the attempt though, even when we decided to withdraw and pull back we still ran into multiple encounters that killed PCs.

Several cities have fallen (dunno why skeletons and zombies don't create spawn) since then and it's looking rather grim. The elves have turned on some kind of deflector shield on their home and are keeping out everyone. The dwarves have retreated into the mountain kingdoms and sealed all their gates. We tried to bring the different races together but no one wants to work together.

My wizard just died after a surprise ambush in what was basically an EL12 encounter.
======
So that being said I'm working on making a character that is highly independent and does not need to worry about gear, sleep, and so forth.

I have a few candidates and am looking for suggestions on each:

#1-warblade.
Pros: High HP, abilities can go non-stop with easy recharge methods.
Cons: A martial with all that implies. (attack rolls, front-liner with no support, heavily gear dependent in close to zero wealth campaign) facing invisible spell-casting or SU using fliers. Party is martial heavy and caster light.

#2-dragonfire adept
Pros: all day abilities, no attack rolls, hard to kill.
Cons: already one in the party, substandard damage (unless seriously optimized), and may be house-nerfed.

#3-warlock
Pros: as per DFA
Cons: squishier than DFA, overlaps DFA only not as well.

#4-druid
Pros: not many spells but can have an AC to help fight. Wildshape all day.
Cons: won't be able to recover spells. Definitely will be out of gas by the 12th+ encounter of a day.

#5-psion
Pros: no Pun-pun, won't be as versatile but easy to make a replacement for my wizard. And with Midnight Augmentation, recharge power points quickly. Party currently doesn't have a knowledge character...or a face. Telepath would cover both. Plus I like being the party face.
Cons: bad press for being OP. Tier 2 wizard.

#6-non-core wizard
Pros: Tier 1 caster. Amazing with non-core.
Cons: I just played a wizard for 6 levels as a team-player. The moment he dropped he bled out in 6 rounds. And right after the first thing the party did was grab his gear and leave, ahem "go through his pockets for loose change." LOL.

#7-bard
Pros: Uh...nm. Well I do like being the party face.
Cons: Doesn't excel at anything unless I use Words of Creation. And not sure how he'd fit in with a party necromancer. Not enough martials to benefit from his buffs. And given that this party is notoriously bad at getting equipment the few times it is available (no CLW wands, potions, belt of healing, etc...), he'll be a heal-bot.

Current roster. The party currently has:

L7 Mongrelfolk DFA. (fire/cold/entangling/power surge/flyby attack. Has magic insight, endure element/breath immunity and flight). Newbie player which is why I recommended the class. (Fly, breathe, repeat)
L7 Human Barbarian Archer. Uses a lot of non-core stuff to fire 3x a round 1d10+7 per arrow ignores cover and concealment (via feats not magic items). I think he's using 3rd party. Highly optimized.
L5 Goliath barbarian. 4th toon for a player. Has only played this guy once and he fell into lava so hurt pretty bad. Not very optimized. Melee.
*L4 Human fighter. Axe/Bow Weapon specialization with both.
L7 Human Dread Necromancer.
*L5 Cleric
*L5 warforged artificer

*=not regular players, two guys were here once. The other twice. Stayed long enough to pick up magic treasure from one of the very rare times we actually got wealth and then poofed.

We have 3 npcs. A CE orc warrior, 80 year old adept healer, and 5th level NPC cleric who is a hireling that we pay for every spell. They mostly occupy party time by needing to be ferried back and forth but do help heal in a pinch. No idea about he CE orc, the archer decided to take him in as a bondsman after defeating him.

So any ideas on which toon?

[GilesTheCleric]

Ouch, that's a mean GM. At least it encourages you to diversify your approach?

In terms of what to play, I think your list is going in the right direction. I might suggest Crusader over Warblade, since you get built-in heals and delayed damage with the Crusader, increasing your versatility and lowering your reliance on others. Druid sounds like a great pick, since you have everything you need right at your fingertips; Bard is the same, but you'll need more optimisation for it to be as powerful. That said, it's probably difficult for a GM to complain at you specifically, when it's the other people using your attack and damage bonuses to do things.

In addition to those, I would also recommend Cleric, for the same reasons as the Bard or Druid. Do be sure to worship an ideal instead of a deity, and make absolutely certain that your GM won't force you to add the DF component to all the spells that don't already have it (and then deny you access to the book with Summon Holy Symbol). Cleric can behave a lot like the Bard, in that you can buff your allies so that you're less likely to incur GM wrath down upon your character specifically, and the Cleric will require much less effort (and fewer non-core books) than the Bard in order to do well. Clerics also have the side bonus of being able to change their approach to the game 100% in just 24 hours, and they don't require 8 good hours of rest to prep spells like a wizard does.

Also, you probably shouldn't focus too much on turning if skeletons are the primary foe in the campaign. It's incredibly easy to steamroll undead that are way above your paygrade, and the GM might see that as a challenge (which will end in a party wipe), or will nerf your turn somehow (I don't even know how that's possible, aside from using PF's "turning" or just giving all your foes turn resist +20 or something). Maybe they'll say it has a miss chance *shivers*.

[ATHATH]

How does your DM feel about Magic of Incarnum?

[Rerednaw]

Ouch, that's a mean GM. At least it encourages you to diversify your approach?

In terms of what to play, I think your list is going in the right direction. I might suggest Crusader over Warblade, since you get built-in heals and delayed damage with the Crusader, increasing your versatility and lowering your reliance on others. Druid sounds like a great pick, since you have everything you need right at your fingertips; Bard is the same, but you'll need more optimisation for it to be as powerful. That said, it's probably difficult for a GM to complain at you specifically, when it's the other people using your attack and damage bonuses to do things.

In addition to those, I would also recommend Cleric, for the same reasons as the Bard or Druid. Do be sure to worship an ideal instead of a deity, and make absolutely certain that your GM won't force you to add the DF component to all the spells that don't already have it (and then deny you access to the book with Summon Holy Symbol). Cleric can behave a lot like the Bard, in that you can buff your allies so that you're less likely to incur GM wrath down upon your character specifically, and the Cleric will require much less effort (and fewer non-core books) than the Bard in order to do well. Clerics also have the side bonus of being able to change their approach to the game 100% in just 24 hours, and they don't require 8 good hours of rest to prep spells like a wizard does.

Also, you probably shouldn't focus too much on turning if skeletons are the primary foe in the campaign. It's incredibly easy to steamroll undead that are way above your paygrade, and the GM might see that as a challenge (which will end in a party wipe), or will nerf your turn somehow (I don't even know how that's possible, aside from using PF's "turning" or just giving all your foes turn resist +20 or something). Maybe they'll say it has a miss chance *shivers*.

Actually the foes are everything you can imagine...double advanced, custom multiple templates, etc...for example my previous wizard was hit by Thoqquas that were +14 to hit which is a bit higher than normal...plus advanced Salamanders, and Efreeti and Mephit (8 of them) inside an active volcano etc...and oh yeah forgot about the level 7+ evoker who was chaindropping walls of fire on us...anyway...want to be well rounded and super survivable.

:)

Magic of Incarnum? He was allowing anything 3.5. Which is why one of my alt builds was an Midnight Augmenting Telepath. (e.g. recharge psionic batteries in a few minutes). Took 2 EK feats for Astral pet of Stomping and Energy Missile. And of course he's going to use Schism though not to the ridiculous infinite-loop versions. He'll settle for a lowbie secondary power (like Vigor) as needed.

Thanks for the advice guys keep it coming!

[Dagroth]

Multi-class Cleric/Crusader. Very high survivability. Get the Touch of Healing reserve feat as soon as you can. Since it only heals up to 1/2 total hit points and requires touch, I can't imagine how your DM would nerf that.

Assuming you're coming in at level 5, Start with Cleric 3 and get Touch of Healing as your 3rd level Feat, then get Crusader 2 for tanking goodness. This, of course, assumes you're a Human or Half-Elf since you'll need Cleric to be a favored class or take the 20% xp penalty.

If you're not a Human, then you'll need to put off getting Touch of Healing until your 6th level Feat unless you go single-class Cleric.

[Metahuman1]

I'd go with the Psion with the recharge trick. Or better yet, an Erudite (I'm away from books ATM so that may be spelled wrong.).

Play it as a warforged insert race that get's int bonuses, and maybe drop dragonborn onto yourself for extra Con.

Prioritize the recharge trick and ways to boost your manifester level and learning powers were ever possible. From there, boost up your own defenses, leave yourself some escape options, and then,

Then you do minor damage and help out the party. Point out to the DM that your not doing much, your just giving your allies a helping hand in whatever they are doing.

Takes a lot of wind out of his sails since you have survivability and that's good, but your not actually the one stomping any of his encounters.

Also it helps avoid the need for sleep. Warfordged don't need it, Erudite don't prepare, and Recharge means you need at most like 5 minutes of down time to restore PP.

[Arbane]

Why are you sticking with this game?

[Particle_Man]

Multi-class Cleric/Crusader. Very high survivability. Get the Touch of Healing reserve feat as soon as you can. Since it only heals up to 1/2 total hit points and requires touch, I can't imagine how your DM would nerf that.


Also, you can prestige up to Ruby Knight Vindicator if you live that long.

But Warforged Psion (telepath) is nice too. Especially since you can take the feat that gives you a great armour class (adamantine body?) and not need heavy armour proficiency for it, nor have any psionic power failure chance (well I dunno, with your DM . . .). Mind you, I had a lot of fun with Warforged Psion (shaper). Astral Constructs for the win! ;)

If Magic of Incarnum is on the table you might consider a LN cleric 3/incarnate 1/sapphire hierarch.

[Hurnn]

VoP druid, you don't need money or items they are all basically built in for you, if you can't rest or memorize spells you still have your animal companion and wild shape to fall back on. Pick up wild cohort for some cheep additional muscle and action economy breaking.

[ShaneMRoth]

Hard to say what to do here...

I'd lean towards warblade, except I have no idea how severely the DM will nerf blade magic.

Based on the composition of the party, it looks like the group could use a rogue, but again... I have no idea how severely the DM will nerf rogue abilities... and the nature of the campaign suggests that the rogue will have nothing to do but become Zombie Chow...

Based on your posts, it seems to me that this DM doesn't want you to play any spellcasters. And a psion is just another spell-caster. It's entirely possible that he doesn't realize that he doesn't want PC spellcasters. Nonetheless, what he does speaks more loudly than what he says. Take the hint.

Frankly, since this campaign has such a high turnover rate, I'd say play a fighter.

That's right. Not a barbarian. Not a ranger. Definitely not a paladin. A fighter.

A human fighter. The most vanilla player-character possible.

Optimize him, or don't. As things stand, that is the least of your concerns.

Until you figure out what this DM really wants (and what he really doesn't want) a plain-old, mom-and-pop, meat-and-potatoes, off-the-rack fighter might be your best bet for now.

[Metahuman1]

Also, you can prestige up to Ruby Knight Vindicator if you live that long.

But Warforged Psion (telepath) is nice too. Especially since you can take the feat that gives you a great armour class (adamantine body?) and not need heavy armour proficiency for it, nor have any psionic power failure chance (well I dunno, with your DM . . .). Mind you, I had a lot of fun with Warforged Psion (shaper). Astral Constructs for the win! ;)

If Magic of Incarnum is on the table you might consider a LN cleric 3/incarnate 1/sapphire hierarch.

You don't even need to do that. There's a power you can pick up that works like Psionic mage Armor.

Added with the Incarnum Recharge trick and a couple of manifester level boosts, you can easily have all the AC you need and then some to help survival.

[Rerednaw]

I'd go with the Psion with the recharge trick. Or better yet, an Erudite (I'm away from books ATM so that may be spelled wrong.).

Play it as a warforged insert race that get's int bonuses, and maybe drop dragonborn onto yourself for extra Con.
... and help out the party. Point out to the DM that your not doing much, your just giving your allies a helping hand in whatever they are doing.
...Warforged don't need it, Erudite don't prepare, and Recharge means you need at most like 5 minutes of down time to restore PP.

What warforged race gives int bonuses please? Source?

Thanks!

[Metahuman1]

Warforged Fire Elf or Warforged Grey elf come to mind. (It's no more ridiculous then Warforged Mongrole Folk or Warforged Water Orc, which I've seen suggested elsewere. )

Both should be on the SRD, but the former is in Unearthed Arcana and the latter The Monster Manual. Just add Warforged.

[GilesTheCleric]

Warforged Fire Elf or Warforged Grey elf come to mind. (It's no more ridiculous then Warforged Mongrole Folk or Warforged Water Orc, which I've seen suggested elsewere. )

Both should be on the SRD, but the former is in Unearthed Arcana and the latter The Monster Manual. Just add Warforged.

Is this a PF thing, or have I missed the Warforged template hidden away in some silly place after all these years?

[Metahuman1]

As I understand it, Warforged can be modeled after any base race. Which is why for example there is literally a Warforged Titan stated out in at least one book.

Thus, a Warforged Grey Elf works RAW.

[GilesTheCleric]

As I understand it, Warforged can be modeled after any base race. Which is why for example there is literally a Warforged Titan stated out in at least one book.

Thus, a Warforged Grey Elf works RAW.

Wait, what? No, the warforged titan is a specific creature, just like the warforged berserker and warforged scout or whatever. Warforged are their own distinct race, created in the distant past of Eberron. No more were ever created in the era the setting is currently in; all players play as ancient warforged.

[Metahuman1]

... ... ...

They only stopped making them 2 years ago at the end of the war according to the Eberron Campaign setting, were the creature type first came to print. It says so in the book!

[GilesTheCleric]

... ... ...

They only stopped making them 2 years ago at the end of the war according to the Eberron Campaign setting, were the creature type first came to print. It says so in the book!

Is Eberron set right at the end of the war? If so, I concede the point. It's been awhile since I've read the lore (I usually play Spelljammer or FR).

In any case, I don't think that extrapolating from a monster statblock is RAW-tight proof of a Warforged template. Yes, you could do it, but there's no way to know what the actual rules of the template are -- it might have scaling/ HD-based factors, it might only apply to certain creature types (giants), etc. There's plenty of places that an extrapolated template would have to resort to brew/ GM handwaving in order to work.

[Metahuman1]

Yes, Default Eberron starts 2 years after the end of the war.


As for Warforged Titan, titans are outsiders, so, if there's limits I'm thinking not that many.


Also, again, apparently Warforged are generally compatible with other things like Mongral Folk or Dragon Born or Water Orc, as I've seen this recommended before. So I fail to see why Fire Elf or Grey Elf would not work given that.

[Deeds]

You're boned. If you play a ToB class expect to see ghosts. You've already said casters can't sleep and the DM is willing to bend over backwards to screw over your build and world.

You're best bet to save the world is to attack it. After attempting to rob and pillage a store, a level 12 NPC will surely come to arrest/kill you. That level 12 NPC could then solo the zombie outbreaks, etc

[JyP]

As it's an apocalyptic world, how your DM feels about Ghostwalk / Libris Mortis ?

Play the ghost of some assassinated adventurer - or any undead. No need to sleep anymore, and it seems to fit the campaign's tone - and you can even be best buddy with the Dread Necromancer.

[GilesTheCleric]

Yes, Default Eberron starts 2 years after the end of the war. My memory was clearly faulty on that point; I apologise.


As for Warforged Titan, titans are outsiders, so, if there's limits I'm thinking not that many.

Also, again, apparently Warforged are generally compatible with other things like Mongral Folk or Dragon Born or Water Orc, as I've seen this recommended before. So I fail to see why Fire Elf or Grey Elf would not work given that.

Okay, let's compare the warforged titan vs the titan, and find all the places where you need brew in order to decide how this template actually works.

Type: Outsider (Chaotic, Extraplanar) -> Construct: Does it only apply for outsiders? And, Warforged are Living Constructs, not Constructs.
HD: 20d8 -> 12d10: Does it set it to d10, or is it a +1 size increase? And, it also somehow loses precisely 8 HD in the process. That's pretty unusual for a template.
Speed: -10ft: The size is the same, yet it's slower. And, how does this affect movement speeds other than the base rate?
AC: 19 natural -> 0 natural: So it removes natural armour. Or maybe it gives -19 natural armour.
BAB: +20 -> +9: Even after losing 8HD, this still doesn't add up. So it loses 8HD, but also +11 BAB. Yes, that's logical.
Special Attacks: Oversized Weapon, SLAs -> Powerful Charge, Trample: Okay, so it also loses its innate spellcasting ability, as well as being able to wield large weapons. Does it lose anything else? Is it entirely incapable of any form of casting? There's no way to know.
Special Qualities: Change Shape, DR 15/law, SR 32 -> DR 10/addy, low-light vision, energy resist 10: Wow. It not only loses its SLAs, but also its SR. That doesn't make any sense. Also it loses its original DR and has it replaced with an entirely different DR of another type. Very consistent. Also when it's reforged into a warforged, it gets bonus low-light vision, because DV 60' wasn't good enough and now it has metal eyes that can see better.
Abilities: Str 43, Dex 12, Con 39, Int 21, Wis 28, Cha 24 -> Str 28, Dex 8, Con —, Int 3, Wis 11, Cha 1: Okay, so that's -14 str, -4 dex, -- con, -18 int, -18 wis, -24 cha. There's so many problems here. Firstly, taking hits to your stats like that during chargen will leave anything that not on a homebrewed PB system that allows you to go over 20 as comatose as soon as you begin. Under regular PB, any race that doesn't have +2 int, +2 wis, and +8 cha and enough PB to get 18s in all three of those stats is toast. Right at chargen. And, again, we don't know what the rules are. It could be a racial -18 to int, or it could just set int to 3. Same with cha.
Alignment: Always C -> Usually LN: That's a 100% flip on the C/L axis. Impressive.

Whoever told you that extrapolating from a creature to create a template is a thing that's possible was wrong. The Warforged Titan is not a Titan with the Warforged template, just like how the Warforged Scout/ Charger is not a Scout/ Charger (not also race, unlike Beguiler) with the Warforged template.

All we need to do is read the statblock, notice the lack of a "Warforged Template/ Warforged Creatures" section with the rules on how to apply the template, and we instantly know that it's not a template. We could also look at the fluff: A huge golem forged of composite materials swings a massive axe and maul as it shambles forward. It's a golem. Golems are always created from scratch, not modified extant beings. It also says nothing about being a modified Titan, which would probably be relevant to mention.

I, too, would be happy to have a Warforged template that I could apply to any creature for easy access to living construct rules, or even just as another numerical bonus to stack on top of all the other templates that do the same thing. But whoever told you that this was a legal 1pp template had no idea what they were talking about. They were also hilariously wrong if they thought this was a good template in the first place. Look at those huge ability penalties! -14 to strength and they thought it was a good pair with Water Orc?

[Particle_Man]

To me "warforged template" sounds like "dwarf template". Warforged are a race in their own right. At best, they have subraces (again like dwarves).

[Metahuman1]

1pp? What on earth are you talking about?


It's not so much "turn an elf into a war forged elf" as "model this particular unit after a type of elf to mimic there abilities and give it some kind of edge." Which is nice if you can load up things like not needing sleep or food or water or being bothered by general environmental stuff or needing air or being poison able or prone to disease and an extra con onto, say, a dragon born water orc as an add on.

[Coretron03]

1pp? What on earth are you talking about?

Generally stands for either 1st person party or 1 power point. In this case power points I would assume.

[Thurbane]

This looks like it's in the wrong area. The area for other RPGs (http://www.sjgames.com/toon/) is: Older D&D/AD&D and Other Systems.

Or possibly Gaming (other) for video games (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=toon&defid=5529111).

[Rerednaw]

Getting back on track...

Gonna try a strongheart halfling druid. Focus on Wildshape and VoP with Exalted Fleshraker companion. Can go most of the day and fast enough to run away. If I am careful with Vigor spells and WS healing hopefully can stay alive long enough. Also plan on Touch of healing feat.

If this one buys the aggie then I'll go psion and melt faces...

[GilesTheCleric]

1pp? What on earth are you talking about?.

First party publisher/ published, ie. not homebrew. My apologies for being unclear.

[Metahuman1]

Ah. Ok then. Regardless sounds, as if the decision was made anyway.


to the OP: Remember, Druids can summon, and some of there summons can heal for the group, such as the unicorn.

Also remember, the druid's summons don't need healing, so there basically expendable bags of HP that have attacks and abilities and stuff. You can spread out and soak up a LOT of the damage your party would take that way.