Cleric feat advice, both selection and order

[Elysiume]

Character: Human Cleric of Desna, Travel and Luck domains. Ability scores 13 12 14 10 18 10
Party: Half-elf Fighter (THF), Halfing Rogue (ranged), Halfling Bard (ranged), Gnome Sorcerer (illusion focus), Elf Druid (summoning focus)

The party is clearly lacking in people willing to go toe-to-toe, so I'll be spending a lot of time in (or near) melee, although I don't plan to focus a huge amount on melee combat. I have a heavy mace and a starknife, and will be almost exclusively using the mace for obvious reasons. I'd initially planned to focus more on summons, but the Druid really has his heart set on summons, and I don't want to overlap (and slow down combat with two sets of summons). The only book that's blanket allowed is the CRB, with stuff from ACG/APG being maybes, UC/UM softer maybes, and anything else purely on a case-by-case basis. Note that I already have Improved Initiative; I've been dragging my heels on picking a second feat, and my GM has been lenient (we're only level 1).

Feats I expect to take eventually:

Heavy Armor Proficiency (CRB): I'm probably going to end up frontlining, so I'm going to want to put as much steel, mithral, and adamantium as possible between me and whatever I'm fighting.
Tower Shield Proficiency (CRB): Same as above. (see below)

Feats I'm considering:

Deific Obedience (ISG): Desna's obedience is easy to meet, and grants an additional +1 initiative bonus and a +4 sacred bonus to perception checks to not be surprised in a surprise round. A nice way to be even more certain my buffs are landing early on in the encounter. Down the line I'll also grab some extra spells and perks. Nice fluff value, too.
Combat Casting (CRB): As above. The Travel subdomain gets me a ton of options for positioning--especially if I can take Grace (APG) to leverage my 40-with-Longstrider base speed--but there will probably be cases where I need to cast a spell in melee.

Other stuff:

Quick Draw (CRB): Mostly (entirely?) for drawing metamagic rods.
Spell Focus (Conjuration) → Augment Summons (CRB): I said I didn't want to edge into the summons space, but hey--summons are neat, and clerics get a lot of summon spells.
Spell Focus (Enchantment/Necromancy) → Greater Spell Focus (Enchantment/Necromancy) (CRB): I didn't fully pump WIS, so I'm not going to be effortlessly throwing Command or Bestow Curse at people. Neither Enchantment nor Necromancy really provide a sweeping benefit, though.
Metamagic (CRB, APG, UM): Maybe Extend (CRB), Quicken (CRB), Bouncing (APG), Echoing (UM)? Or maybe I just lean harder on rods.
Heighten Spell (CRB) → Preferred Spell (APG): Choosing a spell to spontaneously cast could be quite nice. Maybe Lesser Restoration or a domain spell?

Are there any good feats I'm missing? Are there any terrible feats I've listed?

[Firechanter]

Nothing wrong with Improved Ini; as a primary spellcaster you want to get your spells out early.
The whole situation looks familiar -- it can be hard in PF groups to find volunteers to hold the front line.

Not much point in Tower Shield Prof imho. Your melee damage will be pitiful enough already; taking another -2 to Hit while further boosting your AC basically just tells the enemy they should simply ignore you in melee altogether.

Question: how is the Rogue planning to get in her Sneak Attacks at range?

Off hand I can't really advise you on what feats to take because it's not really apparent what you are trying to accomplish. If you want to be a Tank, you don't achieve that by being super-difficult to hit, you need to be able to prevent the enemy from attacking the squishier teammates. With your ability scores, you should probably focus on offensive casting, Battlefield Control.

[Elysiume]

Good point regarding the tower shield--I somehow overlooked the -2 attack penalty! The rogue is planning to lean hard on stealth and sniping. They're basically trying to optimize for 30' ranged combat right now.

Battlefield control sounds more my style than a sort of passive total defense build.

e: Just realized that Spell Focus (Conjuration) would also make it easier to banish someone to hell with Plane Shift, which is a nice perk.

[Stewzors]

If you are considering combat casting, may want to consider skill focus : concentration.

Flat bonus is 1 less (3 rather than 4) but is always active rather than just casting defensively... Also jumps to a +6 bonus if you take 10 ranks.

Hang on, I've been a boob got my 3.5 & PF rules crossed - ignore this post.

[Eldariel]

I do still recommend using some Summons, at least to a degree, and picking up Augment Summoning/Sacred Summons while at it. Summon Monster and Summon Nature's Ally are inherently quite different; Summon Monster especially shines at getting you creatures capable of using spell-likes or similar utility/extra caster effects, while SNA mostly gets you different fighters. There's room for both in the party. As long as you have your Summons and their abilities preplanned, it should be relatively smooth; just stick to summoning an individual thing and you'll be fine. Mostly because Summon Monster-line is one of the best things Clerics in Core PF get.

I do recommend picking up Quicken Spell if you plan on frontlining: getting Quickened Divine Favour before delivering a full smiting upon some heathen on level 9 is a sweet +3/+3 to all your attacks for the encounter for instance.

[Firechanter]

The rogue is planning to lean hard on stealth and sniping. They're basically trying to optimize for 30' ranged combat right now.

I'd really be curious as to how that pans out. Since you can't Hide in Plain Sight (unless Shadowdancer), you'd first have to find cover or at least get Concealment in order to try and hide. That costs actions and time. Overall, they'll be lucky to get in Sneaks every other round, effectively cutting their theoretical DPR in half, which makes Sneak Attack quite a raw deal.


Battlefield control sounds more my style than a sort of passive total defense build.

e: Just realized that Spell Focus (Conjuration) would also make it easier to banish someone to hell with Plane Shift, which is a nice perk.

Chain of Perdition is a pretty cool lowlevel BFC spell for Clerics.

[Geddy2112]

I would not grab heavy armor proficiency just yet, as you are level 1 and you can't really afford the good stuff. Once you can afford some full plate(level 3ish) then go for it, and just grab whatever cheap and good AC boosting armor you can find for now. You want a weapon to be a threat, and the other hand for casting. You could get a 2 handed weapon, which you can let a hand free to cast and then grab it as another free action(to threaten AoO's). If you want the 1 handed weapon, grab a buckler for the offhand. Gives you a bit more AC should you have to stand and swing/are attacked but also lets you cast.

I agree that as a caster you want to go first, but you won't be needing to buff as hard since you have a bard. If they get haste you won't need to prep blessings of fervor(although you both can as a failsafe) but other buffs and whatnot is still important. Instead of combat casting, ask if you can take the warrior priest feat. It is the hybrid of combat casting and improved initiative, only available to divine casters. You are not focused on channeling, but you might need to as a mass heal before mass cure wounds spells come online, so selective channel might be handy. Although you are probably best to just use it out of combat to top off, or blast hordes of undead. Necromancy has a lot of evil spells that will make your deity less than thrilled, so you won't get as much mileage out of a spell focus for it. Enchantment is good, but the bard might be going down that route and cover those bases.

Summoning is good, and sacred summons is the best feat for you. You can pick up focus and conjuration later. Remember that you can summon things that the druid cannot and vice versa-so pick things that don't overlap. A lantern archon or other truespeech angel can pinch hit for a tongues spell, for example. For metamagic, clerics have a lot of great choices for extend spell(it is also my personal favorite metamagic) to make all day buff's happen at mid to higher levels.

So all that in mind, I would grab
1st: deific obedience or warrior priest
3rd:heavy armor proficiency
5: sacred summons
7: deific obedience or warrior priest
9,11,13: metamagic, spell focus(conjuration), augment summons

[Elysiume]

I would not grab heavy armor proficiency just yet, as you are level 1 and you can't really afford the good stuff. Once you can afford some full plate(level 3ish) then go for it, and just grab whatever cheap and good AC boosting armor you can find for now. You want a weapon to be a threat, and the other hand for casting. You could get a 2 handed weapon, which you can let a hand free to cast and then grab it as another free action(to threaten AoO's). If you want the 1 handed weapon, grab a buckler for the offhand. Gives you a bit more AC should you have to stand and swing/are attacked but also lets you cast.

I agree that as a caster you want to go first, but you won't be needing to buff as hard since you have a bard. If they get haste you won't need to prep blessings of fervor(although you both can as a failsafe) but other buffs and whatnot is still important. Instead of combat casting, ask if you can take the warrior priest feat. It is the hybrid of combat casting and improved initiative, only available to divine casters. You are not focused on channeling, but you might need to as a mass heal before mass cure wounds spells come online, so selective channel might be handy. Although you are probably best to just use it out of combat to top off, or blast hordes of undead. Necromancy has a lot of evil spells that will make your deity less than thrilled, so you won't get as much mileage out of a spell focus for it. Enchantment is good, but the bard might be going down that route and cover those bases.

Summoning is good, and sacred summons is the best feat for you. You can pick up focus and conjuration later. Remember that you can summon things that the druid cannot and vice versa-so pick things that don't overlap. A lantern archon or other truespeech angel can pinch hit for a tongues spell, for example. For metamagic, clerics have a lot of great choices for extend spell(it is also my personal favorite metamagic) to make all day buff's happen at mid to higher levels.

So all that in mind, I would grab
1st: deific obedience or warrior priest
3rd:heavy armor proficiency
5: sacred summons
7: deific obedience or warrior priest
9,11,13: metamagic, spell focus(conjuration), augment summonsMakes sense on the HAP; I was also looking at grabbing it at level 3. Right now I'm using a light shield in the offhand; I'm not completely clear on RAW (and would appreciate a clarification) but my GM has ruled I can use my divine focus alongside a shield/mace. I see myself ending up using whatever fancy shields we get, since nobody else in my group is using shields (and only the THF fighter has shield proficiency).

The bard is definitely going down the route of Charm X, but I don't know how much combat-casted enchantment he'll be using. Honestly for necromancy it's like 90% for Bestow Curse, which just looks like a fantastically fun spell, in and out of combat. If I go for either SF here, it'll likely be at or after level 11.

I like that block of feats, but I'm not 100% clear on how Sacred Summons works. The summoned creature would need to have both Good and Chaotic as subtypes, right? That's just one Azata each at Summon Monster V, VI, and IX.

[Elysiume]

I'd really be curious as to how that pans out. Since you can't Hide in Plain Sight (unless Shadowdancer), you'd first have to find cover or at least get Concealment in order to try and hide. That costs actions and time. Overall, they'll be lucky to get in Sneaks every other round, effectively cutting their theoretical DPR in half, which makes Sneak Attack quite a raw deal.

Chain of Perdition is a pretty cool lowlevel BFC spell for Clerics.The GM and I were sort of nudging them towards melee, but they seem pretty set on range. I think they're retroactively swapping weapon finesse out for point blank shot, or something of the like. Without anything boosting their speed, repositioning is going to be tough.

Chain of Perdition is cool. What does BFC stand for?

[Geddy2112]

Makes sense on the HAP; I was also looking at grabbing it at level 3. Right now I'm using a light shield in the offhand; I'm not completely clear on RAW (and would appreciate a clarification) but my GM has ruled I can use my divine focus alongside a shield/mace. I see myself ending up using whatever fancy shields we get, since nobody else in my group is using shields (and only the THF fighter has shield proficiency).
You can use a divine focus so long as you can present it(so a ring, braclet, or other appropriate desnan symbol) but you have to be able to manipulate any other components, and have a free hand to use a somatic component. With a shield in one hand and a weapon in the other you will not be able to cast spells with somatic component. You could put your mace on a weapon cord and just drop it when you need to cast.

Since you want to use the fancy pants shields, have you considered going for a shield bash build? Get a spiked shield, enchant it and take the imrpoved shield bash feat. It is going to be hard to hit 15 dex to get shield slam and shield master, but even without those your shield can be a decent weapon in its own right.


The bard is definitely going down the route of Charm X, but I don't know how much combat-casted enchantment he'll be using. Honestly for necromancy it's like 90% for Bestow Curse, which just looks like a fantastically fun spell, in and out of combat. If I go for either SF here, it'll likely be at or after level 11.
Charm person can be combat cast, or really combat ending. Either way, taking a feat to increase your DC's by 1 for occassional or single spells is not worth it. You also have a pretty strong wis score already, and as you boost it with items and your ability score increases it will be relevant.

If you wanna use bestow curse, a +1 to the DC won't matter at super high levels anyways. Instead, you could boost it via metamagic which can also boost your other spells. Persistent spell is a +2 increase, but making them save twice is much stronger than +1 DC. Or take bouncing spell, so if it fails you can make bestow curse hit another adjacent person. Then again you could heighten the spell and really juice the DC. All of these work for the enchantment spells you might also prepare.


I like that block of feats, but I'm not 100% clear on how Sacred Summons works. The summoned creature would need to have both Good and Chaotic as subtypes, right? That's just one Azata each at Summon Monster V, VI, and IX.
This is correct, the creature must be chaotic good. However, any creature with a * applies the celestial or fiendish template when summoned, and has an alignment that matches yours. The elysium has animals and other monsters running about, that are chaotic good. Therefore these creatures could be summoned as a standard action.

[Elysiume]

This is correct, the creature must be chaotic good. However, any creature with a * applies the celestial or fiendish template when summoned, and has an alignment that matches yours. The elysium has animals and other monsters running about, that are chaotic good. Therefore these creatures could be summoned as a standard action.I may be derailing my own thread here, but does the celestial template grant alignment subtypes? Quoting from Sacred Summons and the Summon Monster block (emphasis mine):

When using summon monster to summon creatures whose alignment subtype or subtypes exactly match your aura, you may cast the spell as a standard action instead of with a casting time of 1 round.

When you use a summoning spell to summon a creature with an alignment or elemental subtype, it is a spell of that type. Creatures on Table 10–1 marked with an "*" are summoned with the celestial template, if you are good, and the fiendish template, if you are evil. If you are neutral, you may choose which template to apply to the creature. Creatures marked with an "*" always have an alignment that matches yours, regardless of their usual alignment. Summoning these creatures makes the summoning spell's type match your alignment.A celestial creature would have a chaotic good alignment, which would make the spell chaotic good. Do summoned creatures automatically have alignment subtypes that match their alignment? Is that in RAW, or a generally accepted RAI?

[Dagroth]

You could always have your Holy Symbol emblazoned on your Shield... That solves a lot of the problem.

[Firechanter]

The GM and I were sort of nudging them towards melee, but they seem pretty set on range. I think they're retroactively swapping weapon finesse out for point blank shot, or something of the like. Without anything boosting their speed, repositioning is going to be tough.

Hm, totally offtopic, but just curious: you keep referring to the Rogue player as "they", don't you know if it's a boy or girl?


Chain of Perdition is cool. What does BFC stand for?

BattleField Control. ;) Basically anything that keeps your enemies from moving and/or attacking, or generally leaving them with no good options. Includes Fog spells (what can't see you can't target you, particularly Ranged attackers), Grease, Entangle, Black Tentacles etc but also any kind of Walls, up to the Bigby line of spells. Most of these are not on the Cleric's standard list, but Chain of Perdition and Wall of Stone are, to name a few.

[Elysiume]

Hm, totally offtopic, but just curious: you keep referring to the Rogue player as "they", don't you know if it's a boy or girl?It's a guy, I'm just sort of in the habit of referring to people neutrally online.

BattleField Control. ;) Basically anything that keeps your enemies from moving and/or attacking, or generally leaving them with no good options. Includes Fog spells (what can't see you can't target you, particularly Ranged attackers), Grease, Entangle, Black Tentacles etc but also any kind of Walls, up to the Bigby line of spells. Most of these are not on the Cleric's standard list, but Chain of Perdition and Wall of Stone are, to name a few.Ah, makes sense.

[vasilidor]

as someone who has played a cleric in pathfinder, I found lots of good use out of the following: reach spell metamagic feat, great for healing. also summon monster type spells are not really viable until level 5 when Summon monster 3 comes online. before then you can get a lot of mileage out of cause fear, hold person, aid, selective channeling (helps avoid healing the enemy, most effective when used with focus fire). one good use for SM3 when it comes online is the lantern archon is both a great combat piece (a ranged at will touch attack) and support (at will aid spell) monster. the rhinos in summon monster 4 & 5 (i think) make for great tanks to block hallways in those pesky ten foot corridors. also summoned monsters make for great instant flank buddies. never doubt the ability of your save or suck spells to turn around otherwise difficult encounters. if you are using a lot of single target save or sucks consider bouncing spell metamagic feat.

ok, also consider scribe scroll and for a melee character: power attack. if you want to focus on the healer aspect of being a cleric the heal domain is an almost must have (at level eight all healing spells are empowered automatically). while there are spells that can boost your character's combat abilities only ever count on having enough time to cast one on yourself in combat before the need to smash in something's skull becomes an issue.

[Elysiume]

as someone who has played a cleric in pathfinder, I found lots of good use out of the following: reach spell metamagic feat, great for healing. also summon monster type spells are not really viable until level 5 when Summon monster 3 comes online. before then you can get a lot of mileage out of cause fear, hold person, aid, selective channeling (helps avoid healing the enemy, most effective when used with focus fire). one good use for SM3 when it comes online is the lantern archon is both a great combat piece (a ranged at will touch attack) and support (at will aid spell) monster. the rhinos in summon monster 4 & 5 (i think) make for great tanks to block hallways in those pesky ten foot corridors. also summoned monsters make for great instant flank buddies. never doubt the ability of your save or suck spells to turn around otherwise difficult encounters. if you are using a lot of single target save or sucks consider bouncing spell metamagic feat.

ok, also consider scribe scroll and for a melee character: power attack. if you want to focus on the healer aspect of being a cleric the heal domain is an almost must have (at level eight all healing spells are empowered automatically). while there are spells that can boost your character's combat abilities only ever count on having enough time to cast one on yourself in combat before the need to smash in something's skull becomes an issue.Agreed; I'm planning to grab SF (Conjuration) and Augment Summoning a bit later on. Power Attack would be good in the early levels, but I'm not expecting to be heavy into melee combat longterm. Regarding domains, I have my heart set on Travel at the very least, and I'm quite fond of Luck.

I'd say for my current progression, it's looking something like:

Planned:

1: Improved Initiative (CRB), Deific Obedience (ISG)
3: Heavy Armor Proficiency (CRB)
5: ???
7: Spell Focus (Conjuration) (CRB)
9: Augment Summoning (CRB)

Potentials:

Extend Spell (CRB)
Heighten Spell (CRB) → Preferred Spell (APG)
Persistent Spell (APG)
Quicken Spell (CRB)
Reach Spell (APG)
Scribe Scroll (CRB)
Warrior Priest (UM)


My GM plays Sacred Summons with it not working with celestial template (as the template affects alignment and doesn't grant subtypes), so with the base monster lists there isn't much it synergizes with.

[Pugwampy]

I would automatically have suggested selective channel feat but i see your charisma is non existent . :smalleek:

[Geddy2112]

Travel and luck are two of the best domains in the game, hands down. One of the many reasons Desna is best girl.

Scribe scroll is always a decent choice for a prepared divine caster, as you can make a handful of situational scrolls on an off day and then never need to prepare those spells again. It is a very strong choice for your party as there will be a fair amount of spells that overlap with the bard, sorcerer, and druid lists, so you can hand out said utility or whatnot scrolls. The bard and sorcerer in patricular can benefit because they are stuck with the spells they have, but you can give them a few spells they have on their list but don't want to waste a spell known slot for. Likewise, one or both of them will likely have a good use magic device score, so handing out a bunch of scrolls can make one or both a pinch hitter so you can focus your daily prep(of course, you can always keep these scrolls for yourself for the same effect).

Reach spell works well with a lot of the bad touch spells, but moreso for feeble arcane casters, where you are much beefier. You can use channeling or mass cure wounds spells to cure your allies if you outright need to. Quicken is good but the +4 to spell level is a hard pill to swallow, really best for 13+ level.