Lastet Champion Fix, take # 215,679

[djreynolds]

Thanks to Mrs. Steampunkette thread, there were some good ideas. And I was looking

I want something fun. How about something even crazier?

At 7th level instead of remarkable athlete

The Crowd Pleaser... your uncanny ability with weapons inspires others

At 7th level....

When you hit with a critical hit (19,20) you gain temporary hit points equal to half your fighter level and you can share these with anyone within sight or hearing of you. These last until your next short rest.

If you score a natural 20, one friendly who is in sight or hearing of you gets an inspiration die that can be used. This lasts until their next short rest or are lost if the champion becomes incapacitated on unconscious

When you roll a 1, you lose hit points towards your maximum hit point level, a number equal to half your fighter level, these hit points can only be regained once you have scored a critical hit again. Any temporary hit points for you or your teammates are lost.

At 15th level....

When you score a critical hit (18,19,20) you gain temporary hit points now equal to your level and can share these with anyone within sight or hearing of you. These last until your next short rest.

If you score a natural 20, all friendly within sight or hearing of you gain an inspiration die. This inspiration die last until their next short rest or are lost if the champion becomes incapacitated on unconscious

When you roll a 1, you lose hit points towards your maximum hit point level, a number equal to your fighter level, these hit points can only be regained once you have scored a critical hit again. Any temporary hit points for you or your teammates are lost.

[Ryuu Hayato]

Remarkable athlete is one of most useful feat of the Champion. The Champion don't need a rework, just a some buff on the lvl 3/15 ability.

- At lvl 3, your weapon attacks score a critical hit on a roll of 19-20. Also, you gain +1 on all damage rolls.
- At lvl 15, your weapon attacks score a critical hit on a roll of 17-20.

BM have 6 superiority dice and at lvl 15 is a d12 (6x6,5 = 39). With a +1 on all damage rolls, the champion have a tool to do a sustained damage. After 10 turns, you can do 30/40 damage with this just +1 on damage.

Score a critical hit on 17 will make a critical more often. When everybody have 5% chance to score a critical hit, you have 20%. With advantage, you'll have +- 40% to score a critical hit.

[MasterMercury]

Remarkable athlete is one of most useful feat of the Champion. The Champion don't need a rework, just a some buff on the lvl 3/15 ability.

- At lvl 3, your weapon attacks score a critical hit on a roll of 19-20. Also, you gain +1 on all damage rolls.
- At lvl 15, your weapon attacks score a critical hit on a roll of 17-20.

BM have 6 superiority dice and at lvl 15 is a d12 (6x6,5 = 39). With a +1 on all damage rolls, the champion have a tool to do a sustained damage. After 10 turns, you can do 30/40 damage with this just +1 on damage.

Score a critical hit on 17 will make a critical more often. When everybody have 5% chance to score a critical hit, you have 20%. With advantage, you'll have +- 40% to score a critical hit.

And let Remarkable Athlete stack with proficiency, giving them 1.5 proficiency in Athletics and such. Not better than a rogue's expertise, but better than everyone else.

[Ryuu Hayato]

And let Remarkable Athlete stack with proficiency, giving them 1.5 proficiency in Athletics and such. Not better than a rogue's expertise, but better than everyone else.

Remarkable Athlete give +2/+3 on iniciative. If you have only +2 on DEX, you'll have +5 on iniciative rolls, steath, acrobatics. You equals to BM or EK with 20 DEX. For a lvl 7 ability it's really great.

A 20 DEX champion fighter will have +8 on iniciative, steath, acrobatics. This is only -3 points (or 15% less effective) to compare with proficiency guy. If you let the ability stack with proficience, it'll have a lack of balance.

The only thing that you can buff this feature is add Athletics expertise or just give proficiency on Athletics skill. But I only prefere proficiency on Athletics.

[Geodude6]

Stop trying to fix the champion. It might not be as exciting as the Battlemaster (aka Warlord Lite) or the Eldritch Knight, but it's still pretty good and a viable alternative to the other martial archetypes.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?398053-In-Defense-of-the-Champion

It's simple, but that means less bookkeeping.

[Specter]

I'm one of those who doesn't want this fix, but if it's gonna happen, keep it simple. 'Every time you score a critical hit, you gain 1d6 temporary hit points. At level 15, this improves to 2d6'.

[Astofel]

I'd like to see the Champion get the Rapid Strike ability that the Knight, Samurai and Sharpshooter from UA have. For those who don't know, it allows you to forgo advantage on one attack to immediately make another attack as a bonus action.

[Deleted]

Remarkable athlete is one of most useful feat of the Champion. The Champion don't need a rework, just a some buff on the lvl 3/15 ability.

- At lvl 3, your weapon attacks score a critical hit on a roll of 19-20. Also, you gain +1 on all damage rolls.
- At lvl 15, your weapon attacks score a critical hit on a roll of 17-20.

BM have 6 superiority dice and at lvl 15 is a d12 (6x6,5 = 39). With a +1 on all damage rolls, the champion have a tool to do a sustained damage. After 10 turns, you can do 30/40 damage with this just +1 on damage.

Score a critical hit on 17 will make a critical more often. When everybody have 5% chance to score a critical hit, you have 20%. With advantage, you'll have +- 40% to score a critical hit.

Remarkable athlete is pitiful. Half prof bonus to initiative is the only real bonus you get out of this and that's sad. The fact that Jack of All Trades laughs at remarkable athlete just shows how hilariously bad this featire is.

Critical hits are something anyone can do. The subclass isn't giving you anything new. You do the same thing as a commoner but more often... Yay...

Getting a level 1 feature at level 10 is also pitiful.

The champion can do one thing, which anyone can do well enough, the champion needs to be fixed.

...

It isn't just the champion that needs fixed, the entire fighter needs fixing.

My rractive fighter is a way to do it, but needs to be uodated a bit more before I would call it truly finished.

[Matticusrex]

to the people saying champion is okay, you ever play any other martial class? Champion is a ****ing joke.

[mr-mercer]

To the people saying champion is not okay, have you ever played any martial characters at all? Champion is a beast.

[SmokingSkull]

I can admit that on paper the subclass doesn't seem much, but ime it's actually quite capable. Note that this is anecdotal but I'm playing one in our campaign, level 14 currently (11 Fighter/3 Barbarian), at first it was a bit plain but after about level 10 (I was 7 Fighter/3 Barbarian at that point) or so it became much more fun for me. Remarkable Athlete pairs nicely with Rage, bonus fun if you get a Ring of Jumping like I do, my character can Hulk leap all over the place :smallsmile:. Once I got my second fighting style (My two are GWF and Archery respectively) I became a capable switch hitter, couple that with the fact that I have Mobile for my defensive purposes when the Rage isn't available makes him a shocktrooper. It is true that I multiclassed but the character is more Fighter than Barbarian, all part of the concept.

My point is whether you're playing it single or multiclassed, the Champ is what you make of it. I'm having fun leaping about the place, shooting my greatbow at cowards who refuse to face me, or switching to my axe for the beatdown. The Barbarian levels were more for story purposes and flavor but I will not deny the two classes pair together nicely.

[toapat]

I can admit that on paper the subclass doesn't seem much, but ime it's actually quite capable.

the problem with champion fighter is not that its bad at damage, its passable at that.

The problem with Champion fighter, is it exists as a subclass separate from Berserker Barbarian.

its literally the subclass about punching things really really hard, but its on the class about punching things for optimal value per punch. and while i recognize that every game needs an Auto-pilot capable class, i dont feel you need multiple such classes

[SmokingSkull]

So then what is the Champion supposed to be? It is the no fiddly bits, kick butt archetype that can and does exist alongside the Berserker. Plus not everyone wants to be the savage from the frontier, and more to the point one can argue that the Berserker shouldn't exist at all either with a Champion already there. However I find this argument weak at best and doesn't solve the so called problem. Besides your table experience will vary, in some campaigns players have buyer's remorse and find the Champion lacking.

Others (like me) have found exactly what we were looking for and enjoy the subclass for what it is. I've managed to use my Remarkable Athlete to (indirectly) affect my social standing with npcs in the game due to my exploits of physical prowess. Even though it's more suited to Exploration this ribbon of an ability had an impact on the Social pillar of things for me, though again ymmv. Hell I'd argue that to fully take advantage of what the Champion is you got to think outside the box, find ways to use your physical abilities to woo, impress, intimidate and awe others npc and otherwise. You don't need a mechanical ability to do that at all, however that's not to say I won't contribute a little more meaningfully to this thread but I had a few ideas concerning this in the past so without further ado:

Forced March
If you spend at least an hour stretching, performing breathing exercises and readjusting the straps of your packs and redistributing their weight you and a number of friendly creatures equal to your Fighter level who take part during this gain the following benefits:
*Advantage on Constitution checks and saving throws made to stave of hunger, thirst and exhaustion.
*You and affected creatures can benefit from a full day's worth of food and water by consuming only half as much needed.
*Additionally you and the affected creatures can travel twice the distance you normally could over land in the same amount of time.
This benefit lasts for eight hours or until you and the affected creatures take their next long rest.

Alternatively I thought of this one for those more concerned with the Social pillar:

Tempered Personality
The trials and tribulations you've endured up to this point have changed you, shaped you, hardened you to the point where you've become a force all your own. You gain advantage on Charisma ability checks made to interact with non hostile creatures who can see, hear and understand you within 30 feet of you and whose Intellect score is no lower than a 6. This ability does not work if the creature is deaf, mindless, or if they are immune to the Charmed or Frightened condition.

These could be suitable alternatives to the ribbon granted at level 7, or if you're so inclined put them into the base Fighter chassis so players can have one of these and everything else, or both if you're a generous DM.

[DivisibleByZero]

To the people saying champion is not okay, have you ever played any martial characters at all? Champion is a beast.
This.

I can admit that on paper the subclass doesn't seem much, but ime it's actually quite capable.
And this.

[toapat]

So then what is the Champion supposed to be?

Rules burden.

Honestly having at least a minimum required amount of RP is fine, and having the completely average Butter Sandwich of Champion Fighter takes away from the game a hell of alot more than Berserker barbarian.

[Strill]

Stop trying to fix the champion. It might not be as exciting as the Battlemaster (aka Warlord Lite) or the Eldritch Knight, but it's still pretty good and a viable alternative to the other martial archetypes.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?398053-In-Defense-of-the-Champion

It's simple, but that means less bookkeeping.

Excitement and simplicity have nothing to do with it. The problem with the Champion is that all it does is damage, and it's bad at it. The Battlemaster easily out-performs the Champion at damage over the course of an adventuring day, and can do all sorts of other things too. Champion needs a bigger damage buff.

[djreynolds]

I have played with the champion with and without feat and multiclassing, it is a fine class

But it really depends on the player, sometimes I want to play a grunt with a rifle and an E-Tool in the bush.

Sometimes I want to play a jet pilot, hello Paladin.

Now first off, we all know all classes are not equal... not at inception nor at 20th level.... its life and it ain't changing.

Okay, back to playing a champion. I have played them when there were no feats or multiclassing allowed.... and now its how I come to judge a class.

Would you play a champion without feats?

No, they are boring, lets be honest it okay.

And the idea they are for newbies is IMO, very, very humbly, is silly, in the hands of an experienced gamer, they are very good. I enjoy them.

What I want is something fun and critical hits are not fun.

It should be exciting and perhaps awesome when a champion scores a critical hit.

And I think the my train of thought where perhaps it can positively or even negatively effect teammates "could" be cool.

I mean the archetype isn't called "man-at-arms", it is called Champion.

I like the idea of when the champion scores a critical hit... they and their teammates are better for it.

And when the champion misses, they feel cursed.

This is all spit balling here, I don't want this to be about damage, I want it to be about game play.

Would that be fun, if when the champion scores a critical hit the whole party gets inspired and when score a 1... the party feels cursed? Until the champion scores another critical hit.