help me build perfect spy... rogue/warlock

[Joe dirt]

hey guys going to start a new game and want to build the perfect infiltrator character that also doesn't suck at combat...

i was thinking of going with warlock 3, and either rogue assassin X or arcane trickster X, for the mask of the many, alternate human for actor feat, pact of the tome so i can get the "friends" cantrip

anything else i missed? if so why? and thanks

[JellyPooga]

First up, the standard questions;

1) What level are you starting at?
2) What level do you expect to get to?
3) Are you focusing more on Rogue or Warlock?
4) How "solo" do you expect to be able to operate?

Some general advice, pending answers;

Bard might be a better option than Rogue; more spell slots than an AT, same Expertise, wider skill base from JoaT. For a small dip, Bard offers more.

Having said that, a single Class Warlock makes a fine spy/infiltrator all on his lonesome; the only unique thing a Rogue or Bard dip really offers is Expertise and as good as it is, the higher level abilities you'll get from Warlock may be worth more.

[Joe dirt]

First up, the standard questions;

1) What level are you starting at?
2) What level do you expect to get to?
3) Are you focusing more on Rogue or Warlock?
4) How "solo" do you expect to be able to operate?

Some general advice, pending answers;

Bard might be a better option than Rogue; more spell slots than an AT, same Expertise, wider skill base from JoaT. For a small dip, Bard offers more.

Having said that, a single Class Warlock makes a fine spy/infiltrator all on his lonesome; the only unique thing a Rogue or Bard dip really offers is Expertise and as good as it is, the higher level abilities you'll get from Warlock may be worth more.

1)we start at 3rd, i was thinking of 1rst level rogue for the skills, expertise in stealth and deception, then 2 levels of warlock for mask of many and devil's sight

2) this is a long term game

3)focus will be on rogue for sneak attack and extra actions to stealth

4)solo will be occasionally

[CursedRhubarb]

What materials are you allowed? If UA can be used then a Warlock with a Bard dip makes an amazing infiltration specialist/Assassin.

Fey, GOO, or Raven Queen look to make the best ones. Fey has great illusions available, RQ can get info from corpses and gets permanent flight at 6 as a bird, so can be ignored by guards until they get inside.

GOO can do some amazing tricks and would be my choice. With the telepathy, expertise in deception and persuasion, and the invocation to see through walls they can then use telepathy to turn the guards on one another or detect thoughts and get them to reveal information without ever entering the room. At 13th level and the Ethereal spell they can see the material plane so still see through walls and use telepathy to talk in the minds of people on the material plane, while the lock is not. Friends + Mask of Many Faces works wonders for getting into places, especially with expertise in Deception and Persuasion. Being able to pass on info to your pals via telepathy while in disguise is even more fun.

Bard gets you the expertise and Jack of All Trades as well as some nice spell options and more slots you can use.

[JellyPooga]

If your main focus is on Rogue, then Arcane Trickster is definitely the way to go. Having said that, if infiltration is your game, then focusing on Rogue will hurt you more than help; after level 1, Rogues really don't get that much better at infiltration; even a level 5 Wizard has more options with the likes of Invisibility, Fly and Gaseous Form, which is why I highly recommend Bard as an alternative to Rogue, especially if you're only planning on dipping Warlock (and not the other way around).

Lore Bard is a skill-monkey beyond compare; between 6 skill proficiencies, JoaT, Enhance Ability and Peerless Skill, they really do have every base covered, not to mention being able to cherry pick spells with (Additional) Magical Secrets; Pass Without Trace and Fly are both great choices for an infiltrator type.

GOOlock is a great spy (if not the best), but only if you have the chance to plan your day and aren't facing frequent encounters. Assuming you're playing a fairly vanilla D&D game, Warlock is really just a way to get Devils Sight and a decent combat cantrip; don't expect anything godlike out of it. Having said that, pushing your Warlock levels up to 5th is a solid move; getting short-rest 3rd level spell-slots is extremely handy, not to mention the extra Invocation; of particular note for an infiltrator is One with Shadows for at-will (if stationary) Invisibility. Pact of the Chain is definitely worth considering instead of Tome; having an extra pair of flying, invisible eyes is better than a couple of extra Cantrips, both in combat and out.

I would start as Bard 3, probably push for Bard 6 to get the Additional Magical Secrets, then think about multiclassing to Warlock after that (so you get to actually roleplay making your Pact...always fun!). I wouldn't bother with the Actor feat; it's nice to have, but uneccesary when you have access to Enhance Ability; for a scout, the Skulker Feat is practically a necessity to avoid the Disadvantage dim light imposes on Perception checks, not to mention the additonal hiding opportunities. With that and Darkvision, you really don't need Devils Sight which, while amazing on paper, is a situational bonus at the best of times (seriously, how often are you really subjected to magical darkness unless you cast it yourself?). Having said that, you really don't want to be doing any solo stuff at too low a level; the risks are high and the reward low. So with that in mind, I'd recommend playing a non-human Race and grabbing Skulker at level 4; Half-Elf and Drow are both great choices for a Cha-based spellcasting infiltrator and if you're thinking of taking Mask of Many Faces, the latter especially; the extra spells don't hurt, but the 120ft Darkvision in conjunction with Skulker is fantastic. Svirfneblin (Deep Gnome) is also a good choice despite the unintuitive bonus to ability scores; with their racial Feat, that at-will Nondetection will give your GM the middle finger at the least expected time and again that 120ft Darkvision, but without the Sunlight Sensitivity of the Drow.

[Captain Morgan]

GOO Warlock of Lore Bard straight up strike me as better than Multiclassing. Or at least, you'll need to sink a lot of levels into the Caster side before it's worth dipping. Spells just add such a crazy level of utility for this. Let's look at the Warlock.

Level 1: gets you telepathy, charm person, and hex for disadvantage on wisdom checks. Hex can go a long way towards making up the skill gap for expertise and the other abilities can't be replicated by a rogue.

Level 2: Invocations kick in. This is actually a great reason to max your Warlock levels because there are so many great ones. Seekng through walls and Disguise Self are probably top priority, but you can eventually get extra skill proficiency, silent image at will, levitation for Bypassing walls and such, and more. Agonizing Blast will make you competitive in combat with practically no other investment, and Repelling Blast will make said combats a little less boring. Devil's Sight is normally a strong option but isn't needed because...

Level 3: you went Chain and got an invisible flying tiny drone whose senses include devil sight and you can share at any time. Get Voice of the Chainmaster and your spying and communication range just became unlimited. What's a rogue got to compete with that? Oh, but that's not all. Invisibility, Detect Thoughts, and Suggestion just came into your spell pool. As did Phantasmal Force, which is not only useful for infiltration but can easily end fights.

Level 4: More of the above spells plus an ASI. If feats are allowed Actor is great.

Level 5: Finally a third invocation. From here out the pace you get these increases. And your spell list can now include Sending and Clairvoyance for reconnaissance where your imp can't reach and reporting in. Sending+ Voice of the Chainmaster makes for arguably few best long term spy. A Warlock solely focused on staking out an area can literally send a report every hour, or he can leave his familiar behind and go about his business.

Level 7: Dimension door is the only spy tool I see, but 4th level slots raises your casting power and you can pick up fight enders like Black Tentacles and Banishment. Plus progressing for more spells and Invocations.

Level 9: you just got scrying, rejoice. Dream and Contact other plane may be useful as well. Plus telekinesis.

Level 11: a third spell slot, and a once per day Mass Suggestion or True Seeing? Sign me up.

Level 13: say hi to Etherealness. She can make you an invisible spy that can walk through walls.

Level 15: Glibness and Dominate Creature.

Level 17: Astral Projection and Foresight.

I haven't done an intensive comparison between Bard and GOO Lock here, but I suspect the Lock comes out even in ahead for pure spying while also easily being able to do better damage. But Bard will probably do a great job.

[Captain Morgan]

Upon further reflection, I think this is a fair comparison between the GOO chainlock and the Lore bard.

The Bard will excel in infiltration through the front door. He's going to have the spell slots to try and fix a lot more curve balls on the fly, can potentially charm not only his own way into the enemy base, but get the rest of the party in as well. Seeming, Modify Memory, and Programmed Illusion are all pretty great for this, and you're going to be rolling your deception and persuasion at a higher value. The downside is that "brute facing" your way through an enemy compound can chew through your spell slots, and if/when a fight does break out because you failed a bluff check or whatever, you'll have a lot less to bring to bear. A 2 level dip in Warlock can alleviate this some, but it's delaying all your other sweet spell options. Basically, the Bard does the spy equivalent of kicking down the door and charging in.

The Warlock doesn't have as many she can cast consequetively to pull that off. Nor does she have as many spells known. What she does have is superior scouting abilities, numerous great at will abilities, and a few options completely unique to the Warlock. A Warlock could have the enemy compound almost entirely mapped out before setting foot in it, if she even needs to set foot in it at all. She can see through walls. She can spot magical traps casually everywhere she goes. She can cast arcane eye at will or see the true form of any creature hidden by illusion or transmutation. She can even turn a defeated enemy into her own spy. And she's always pulling her weight in combat.

Which one is better? Hard to say. Depends on your personality, creativity, and the campaign. And also party make up. Having a wizard with the right spells in the party can drastically shift what you need. Passwall looks pretty great when you know what's on the other side already, and a lot Bard spells overlap with the wizard list.

[JellyPooga]

Upon further reflection, I think this is a fair comparison between the GOO chainlock and the Lore bard.

The Bard will excel in infiltration through the front door. He's going to have the spell slots to try and fix a lot more curve balls on the fly, can potentially charm not only his own way into the enemy base, but get the rest of the party in as well. Seeming, Modify Memory, and Programmed Illusion are all pretty great for this, and you're going to be rolling your deception and persuasion at a higher value. The downside is that "brute facing" your way through an enemy compound can chew through your spell slots, and if/when a fight does break out because you failed a bluff check or whatever, you'll have a lot less to bring to bear. A 2 level dip in Warlock can alleviate this some, but it's delaying all your other sweet spell options. Basically, the Bard does the spy equivalent of kicking down the door and charging in.

The Warlock doesn't have as many she can cast consequetively to pull that off. Nor does she have as many spells known. What she does have is superior scouting abilities, numerous great at will abilities, and a few options completely unique to the Warlock. A Warlock could have the enemy compound almost entirely mapped out before setting foot in it, if she even needs to set foot in it at all. She can see through walls. She can spot magical traps casually everywhere she goes. She can cast arcane eye at will or see the true form of any creature hidden by illusion or transmutation. She can even turn a defeated enemy into her own spy. And she's always pulling her weight in combat.

Which one is better? Hard to say. Depends on your personality, creativity, and the campaign. And also party make up. Having a wizard with the right spells in the party can drastically shift what you need. Passwall looks pretty great when you know what's on the other side already, and a lot Bard spells overlap with the wizard list.

This is a pretty accurate comparison; the Bard is better "on the fly" due to its versatility, skills and range of spell slots, while the Warlock tends to take a little forethought and planning and even then can get caught out if something goes wrong with "the plan", but has some unique tricks up his sleeve that more than make up for this weakness.