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kreytor
2007-07-24, 09:58 PM
Got a group of four in my campaign: Sorcerer, Wizard, Knight and Scout. They are about third level coming up on fourth pretty quickly. I am having a hard time challenging them without wounding them. They take a long time to heal up from any decent battle. With only one meatshield, once he gets hurt they are very reluctant to continue into dangersous areas.

I have been thinking of giving them sometihng to help out, but not certain what that should be. A ring of Regeneration would help in some ways but is a bit powerful.

Should I include an NPC such as a low level bard, adept or cleric? Or just give an item that allows them to cast cure light wounds a couple times a day?

Isomenes
2007-07-24, 10:16 PM
Isn't there a healing spell in the Wizard spell list in some splatbook? V-something? (I only remember because of its oddity.)

Draz74
2007-07-24, 10:25 PM
You could "hurt them without damaging them" by fighting them entirely with save-or-suck effects from enemy casters. The classic way of doing this is swarms of low-level Kobold Sorcerers. :smallamused:

Or you could demand that one of them multiclass into something with healing abilities. Even a one-level dip in Dragon Shaman would be quite helpful. Or a one-level dip in Ranger or Bard or Paladin would allow the use of a Wand of Cure Light Wounds. (Scouts don't get hurt much by a 2-level Ranger dip, especially if they're planning on taking Swift Hunter.)

Or you could go with the item idea. A stash of Potions of Cure X might be more believable than a custom item that non-healer classes can use. Keaough's Ointment (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#restorativeOintment) (or whatever it's called in the PHB) could work too.

Thinker
2007-07-24, 10:31 PM
Remind them that they can hire outside help. Don't cater to them. If they don't want to get healing thats their problem, not yours. Hit them with a death and they'll see.

Rachel Lorelei
2007-07-24, 10:44 PM
Thinker, that's a terrible way to look at it. If the party has no healing, which the game requires, that *is* the DM's problem, since the DM wants everyone to be having fun, hopefully... and sitting around rather than adventuring isn't fun. "Kill them so they learn better" is antagonistic DMing.

Try Belts of Healing, from the Magic Item Compendium. Relatively cheap, and they provide a solid amount of healing for low levels. After that, well, suggest one of them pick up Leadership for a healing cohort.

calebcom
2007-07-24, 11:00 PM
I've played in a party that went from level 1 to level 20 with no healer. They did fine, our DM was constantly trying to actually challenge us. at lvl 20 our rogue killed a balor in 1 round.


However our guys were incredibly smart in stacking the odds in their favor.

Ponce
2007-07-24, 11:03 PM
Could let the sorcerer cast a few healing spells, as the bard would.

Yechezkiel
2007-07-24, 11:11 PM
I recommend a house rule, letting them heal their level + con mod per night (instead of just level). It's minor, but helps (normal natural healing is painfully slow).

Otherwise they are really going to need an PC or NPC healer. It's better then just giving them an item that solves the problem (in my opinion).

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-07-24, 11:12 PM
A stash of Potions of Cure X might be more believable than a custom item that non-healer classes can use.
Yeah. Along those lines, almost every NPC that has a reasonable expectation to be injured in my campaigns carries one or more healing potions. This includes most of the bad guys. So, if the PCs are quick enough to dispatch the baddies before the baddies drink their potions, the PCs manage to obtain the potions as loot.

It's a dangerous world. It's best to be prepared.

Oh, yes, and you could also try playing with the Reserve Points (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/unearthedInjury.html#reserve-points) rules from Unearthed Arcana.

MeklorIlavator
2007-07-24, 11:15 PM
You could also give them a free bonus feat: Fast Healing(Or whatever its called. Its in the complete Warrior). Effectively doubles healing per night. Also, remember that if someone makes a heal check: Longterm aid, the recipients healing rate is also doubled. And that stacks with Fast Healing, so that should help a lot.

Aquillion
2007-07-24, 11:27 PM
Houserule that the scout gets UMD (they're not that powerful of a class, it won't break them.) Then give them a wand of CLW. Presto.

Alternatively: Have the party discover a magic healing spring somewhere. They still have to travel back to it for healing, and you should place some limits on it so they can't abuse it when they get teleport, but a spring that heals 1 hp per minute you spend soaking in it (with water that is nonmagical when removed from the spring) wouldn't be too abusable and would solve your problems nicely. Maybe the spring itself could be a plot point or a quest reward--the players could hear a rumor of it and have to go on an adventure to discover its exact location, then later they'd have to protect it from evil forces that want to abuse its power somehow or whatever.

Plus some healing potions for when they need quick field healing, naturally.

SadisticFishing
2007-07-24, 11:35 PM
Or, if you want a balanced party and to be a mean DM (I do this when my party really doesn't want to heal, but they all try to force each other to)... Don't do anything special. They get a decent amount of power from not having a constant healer (33% more if the healer does nothing but heal), so they shouldn't be coddled.

Xuincherguixe
2007-07-24, 11:39 PM
Potions of Cure Light Wounds for when they really need healing. Maybe some sort of item that lets them heal a smidge every round.

Aquillion
2007-07-24, 11:49 PM
Or, if you want a balanced party and to be a mean DM (I do this when my party really doesn't want to heal, but they all try to force each other to)... Don't do anything special. They get a decent amount of power from not having a constant healer (33% more if the healer does nothing but heal), so they shouldn't be coddled.The thing is, it doesn't really work like that. WoTC realized that people never want to play the healer, so they made the healing classes significantly overpowered to compensate. Even totally unoptimized, a cleric can afford to buff themselves, wade into combat at key points, then heal everyone up afterwards. And even if a healer never does any "field healing", simply having a healer around means that the entire party can recover completely with a single day of downtime (verses literally months without no healer at all.)

They can survive on healing potions, sure, but "33% more" just isn't true. A party with no cleric is losing a huge amount and will be operating significantly below where a party of their size otherwise would; the DM has to figure out how to accommodate for this. If you don't--if you just keep throwing four daily encounters at the party as if nothing was wrong--nobody is going to have any fun, because they're going to get brutally slaughtered. (That doesn't necessarily hold true for really optimized parties, but none of the CR-type guidelines do in that case anyway.)

The_Werebear
2007-07-24, 11:50 PM
You may want to look into the vitality point (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/vitalityAndWoundPoints.htm#vitalityPoints) system. Recovery goes faster that way, provided you don't take too many critical hits along the way.

Damionte
2007-07-24, 11:59 PM
Remind them that they can hire outside help. Don't cater to them. If they don't want to get healing thats their problem, not yours. Hit them with a death and they'll see.

I agree with Tinker. My own group of players are always reluctant to play a cleric. Then bitch when they don't have enough healing. My turn to GM is coming up and I normally play the cleric. I've warned them they're ogign to need one.

If they don't make at least one person with the remote possibility to heal I won't cater to them either. I'll run tyhe adventure as before and let them dfeal with it. They chose not to bring a healer thus they choose to deal with the consequences of that.

Once thier progress slows to a crawl or they lose a coupel of characters they'll figure it out.

BardicDuelist
2007-07-25, 12:16 AM
We have this problem often, which is why I almost always play a character with UMD or a bard. No one in our group likes clerics (most of the time).
Healing potions help, but what I may recomend is a Healer from the miniatures handbook hireling.

The group gets less XP and has to pay gold to have somone follow them around healing. I would have the healer take a vow of non-violence, and possibly be a roleplaying nag ("Was that really necessary? We could have talked it out."). They get practically nothing but healing spells, and a lot of them.

One thing, though, is remember that things that damage levels or ability scores are significantly tougher without a cleric, druid, or to a lesser extent paladin. Without regeneration, heal, etc. those fights are significantly tougher to bounce back from. I would still use them, but adjust CR appropriately.

The group should learn that they may have to sell some really cool items that they find to pay for hirelings/potions, etc.

Make healing stuff accessable in most situations, but at a cost.

Thinker
2007-07-25, 12:17 AM
Thinker, that's a terrible way to look at it. If the party has no healing, which the game requires, that *is* the DM's problem, since the DM wants everyone to be having fun, hopefully... and sitting around rather than adventuring isn't fun. "Kill them so they learn better" is antagonistic DMing.

Try Belts of Healing, from the Magic Item Compendium. Relatively cheap, and they provide a solid amount of healing for low levels. After that, well, suggest one of them pick up Leadership for a healing cohort.

The latter was more what I was suggesting. Going with hirelings or cohorts is a good way to help them out. Thats why I recommend suggesting it as a possibility, but not forcing them into anything. Then if they continue to disregard life-threatening situations because they have time to heal, make it harder on them. In your world magical healing is used to stave off death for adventurers. And making encounters that are life-threatening is not antagonistic DMing. Sorry if I wasn't very clear with my initial response.


I agree with Tinker. My own group of players are always reluctant to play a cleric. Then bitch when they don't have enough healing. My turn to GM is coming up and I normally play the cleric. I've warned them they're ogign to need one.

If they don't make at least one person with the remote possibility to heal I won't cater to them either. I'll run tyhe adventure as before and let them dfeal with it. They chose not to bring a healer thus they choose to deal with the consequences of that.

Once thier progress slows to a crawl or they lose a coupel of characters they'll figure it out.
I am Thinker, after the namesake of the famous statue. Not to be confused with Tinker, the first part of a brand of toys. I recommend that you, too suggest they get a hireling or a cohort if they do not want to be a healer.

Clerics are not just heal-bitches. You could also point out to them Binders: they are great for out of combat healing. Crusaders are great for in-combat healing. There are all sorts of alternatives. Most healing I've seen is done out of combat anyway.

Rachel Lorelei
2007-07-25, 12:20 AM
Because... making people play something they don't want to leads to more fun? Or not taking party composition into account? Great DMing, there.

BardicDuelist
2007-07-25, 12:26 AM
Because... making people play something they don't want to leads to more fun? Or not taking party composition into account? Great DMing, there.

I agree. Hence: They have access to healing magic, they just have to pay for it with their gold. If they run out of gold, they may have to sell one of their cool magic items.

Sidenote: Is there a SRD for the miniatures handbook, or is the healer anywhere online?

Rachel Lorelei
2007-07-25, 12:29 AM
I agree. Hence: They have access to healing magic, they just have to pay for it with their gold. If they run out of gold, they may have to sell one of their cool magic items.

Those magic items are part of the power their characters are supposed to have. Without them, they'll get hurt more, have to spend more money, etc. Potions are an expensive way to heal during downtime.

Besides, it's still punishing the group because nobody felt like being the proverbial heal-bitch.

Damionte
2007-07-25, 01:51 AM
Having to use magic items, or take a hireling is part of what I consider the consequences of not having someone on the team that can heal.

This is a large party ofplayers. Usually from 6-7 players plus the GM. If they can't figure out they need to take at least one person with the capacity to heal with them, then it's going to be on them.

There are enough base classes that heal that they should be able to find at least one that has enough flavor for one of them to fit into an interestign concept. Even splashing a level or 3.

Cleric
Healer
Druid
Bard (Arcane)
Favored Soul
Shugenja
Spirit Shaman
Ranger
Palladin
Ardent (Psionic)
Dragon Shaman

And these are just the base classes that can heal without magic items. Not to mention the UMD skill monkeys like Rodue & Warlocke.

This is a 7 man party. They should be able to squeze at least a few levels of some of these classes into thier builds. If they can't then it'll be up to them to figure it out as they go.

I'm the same way with the other base skills. If they don't take any meat shield warriors then I expect them to be good at crowd control or johnny on the spot with summun monster. If no one in the party can disarm traps through skill then they should have detect traps or knock handy, or just be prepared to bash in doors with an axe the old fashioned way and use thier fort and reflex saves to disarm traps. In a party this large I can't afford to tailor encounters just for the abilities they have. Party this large should have at least 1 person in it that can handle most generic situations one way or another.

The players are forwarned that I won't tailer to them. They've been warned to be balanced, and they're making characters at the table together as a group.

In my experience this has always turned out better than having a hole in the party. When multiple people do the same thing the overlap in abilities tends to cause more boredom than being the guy who had to play a healer.

Eldritch_Ent
2007-07-25, 02:07 AM
Actually, as it stands, I think Thinker has the right idea. He's not being antagonistic- Antagonistic would be "Rocks Fall, nobody dies immediately, but you all slowly bleed to death because you don't have a healer."...

He's just not altering the rules based on poor player planning. I certainly don't believe it's right to coddle people because they sold the Plot MacGuffin for a kiss and w ink, or don't know how to make a decent character build, or chose to play a Monk instead of a Fighter, or a Blaster Mage instead of a Batman... All thinker is saying is you shouldn't reward players for dull decisions.

My suggestion would be to continue as normal- The PC's will have to spend resources to heal (Much as they would with a Cleric), just less in "Abilities per day" and more in "Time and Money".

However, a Ring of Vigor or the like could also be useful. Or at the very least make sure the party can purchase healing potions, wands, hirelings, all that sort of stuff.

And hey, I *LOVE* playing the Cleric! (Ohhhh no, there goes Tokyo- Go Go CoDZilla!)

Soepvork
2007-07-25, 02:32 AM
You might houserule some hit point healing with a successful heal check. I like to use the following:

If a wounded character gets treated with a succesful heal check, he'll regain (check-DC) hit points. Using the skill this way requires one hour. A character can take 10 but not take 20 on this check.

Of coure, you can set the "DC" whatever you want, 10 or 15 seems reasonable

SadisticFishing
2007-07-25, 03:33 AM
Heh, we played a three person party with no healer, but we were... rather optimised, so maybe my vision is a bit skewed. Wands of Cure Light Wounds work wonders for cutting down downtime though.

Kizara
2007-07-25, 04:19 AM
NPCs are your friend.

Cleric of Pelor/Fhar/Kord etc.

bigbaddragon
2007-07-25, 04:28 AM
Got a group of four in my campaign: Sorcerer, Wizard ....

Arcane casters can get healing via Arcane Disciple feat (Complete Divine pg 79). The feat gives access to spells from a cleric domain.

If you want to give them a cohort then make it the Healer class from Miniatures Handbook. It focuses on healing and removing some unfavorable conditions from characters (paralysis, disease, poison, fear, blindness ...) and at level 7 it doesn't provoke AoOs when casting healing spells.

EDIT: Arcane Disciple (Healing) drawback is that for those domain spells your primary casting stat is wisdom.

ChrisMcDee
2007-07-25, 04:37 AM
I'd give them a relatively fragile cohort/hireling that can heal them. They gain the healing ability but he'll need to be protected from danger. Give a little and take a little away :smallwink:

bigbaddragon
2007-07-25, 04:38 AM
Also wands of Lesser Vigor (spell is in Spell Compendium pg 229) are much better than wands of Cure Light Wounds for post battle healing. They cure 11 HP compared to d8+1 from wands of Cure Light Wounds.

warmachine
2007-07-25, 04:40 AM
Make the campaign in the wilderness where they're opposed by a tribe, such as orcs or goblins. The tribe commander knows he must send scouting parties to find the party but knows he has the advantage of numbers. As his scouting parties find the party, he launches hit-and-run attacks to wear down the spellcasters. The Knight and the Scout will do well and the party is likely to beat off all attacks by low level mooks. If the party doesn't keep moving, the tribe commander can deploy progressively more troops against them and the attacks increase. The Knight and the Scout will start to run down on HP and the party will be forced to retreat or die. The players will realise that healing will give them endurance.

How they get that healing is up to them: potions, wands, hired cleric, whatever. The DM is not railroading and is presenting level appropriate encounters that obviously make sense within the game world. They're up against a smart commander that's exploiting an obvious weakness: no Cleric or Paladin. The players just have to be smarter.

The Prince of Cats
2007-07-25, 04:44 AM
I would have to give another vote for the hireling idea. I have a party where the healer's player turns up about 3/4 of the way through the session if she comes at all. The players buy a lot of potions and I have let them hire a cleric if they want one. (generally, a cleric who has a great love of the Sanctuary (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/sanctuary.htm) spell)

The party do have too much money, I think. My wife and I trade out DMing. She seems to have a knack for finding pre-written missions which have more loot than the danger would indicate. I write my own, and give much less...

Healing potions... Just make sure that the NPCs think to use them too.

Overlard
2007-07-25, 04:45 AM
Being a healbitch sucks. I rarely play divine casters, as other players tend to complain that you're taking too many non-healing spells, or that you're using your spell slots to actually do interesting stuff in combat rather than saving them to convert to cures when the fighter takes one hit too many.

If they don't have a healer, simply make them pay for it. Literally. Either they shell out for potions, or pay a cleric/healer/whatever to accompany them, which isn't cheap. I tend to take ranks in UMD and then use wands/scrolls/staffs of healing, which is also expensive, but still lets me use the character I want.

Trying "not to hurt them" isn't what D&D is about, as far as I'm concerned. You should be providing challenges, and it's up to them to find a solution. If they're halfway through a temple riddled with traps, and the rogue dies & is replaced by a barbarian, do all the rest of the traps vanish? Should all the monsters have poor will saves as the sorcerer specialises in enchantments? Should the party only face undead when they're all clerics of Pelor? Should all the foes not use weapons or damaging spells as they don't have a dedicated healer?

Provide a balanced game, but remember that the players have to provide balance at their end too. Don't punish them for their party make-up, but don't change the fundamentals of the game to suit them.

ZeroNumerous
2007-07-25, 04:49 AM
I don't see why people complain about being a cleric. I enjoy it. Why? Because if someone makes me angry, I stop healing them. It's that simple.

As for dealing with a party that lacks healing.. Hirelings are 3 or 4 copper a day. It's sickeningly easy to hire a cleric.

Kizara
2007-07-25, 05:31 AM
Anyone with a PC class (lvl 1) is 30 gp/day. And that's assuming reasonably safe working condictions.
Reference from SBG.

You might be able to justify 'reasonably safe' if you keep them well out of combat and just have them heal-bot you after. Mind you, a lvl 1 cleric can't heal all that much if you're > lvl 5.

Roog
2007-07-25, 05:49 AM
Anyone with a PC class (lvl 1) is 30 gp/day. And that's assuming reasonably safe working condictions.
Reference from SBG.

You might be able to justify 'reasonably safe' if you keep them well out of combat and just have them heal-bot you after. Mind you, a lvl 1 cleric can't heal all that much if you're > lvl 5.

Stronghold Builder's Guide (I guess thats the SBG) p42
Level 1 Cleric - 30GP/month

Jack_Simth
2007-07-25, 06:12 AM
Could let the sorcerer cast a few healing spells, as the bard would.

Oddly, it's not even a house-rule to permit it; the Sorcerer is the only core class with leeway on the wording in the spell casting description for what spell list Sorcerers get their spells from. Drop an appropriate Arcane scroll of Cure X Wounds (or Heal, or something from the Vigor line) and the Sorcerer meets one of the examples on the PHB page 179 come next time your sorcerer can learn spells (at level up).

Saph
2007-07-25, 06:29 AM
Have to agree with Thinker on this. It's a bad idea to make an adventure cater too obviously to the party's makeup. It makes those players who HAVE planned ahead and tried to cover their weaknesses feel useless. I'd recommend it if you're playing with newbies, but not otherwise.

A simple solution would just be to tell this to the players. "Hey, you don't have a healer. This might be a problem. Have a chat with each other and figure out some way to make sure you don't all bleed to death in the wilderness." Then let them go shopping for magic items / take Leadership / find a NPC companion / stock up on healing potions / max out UMD and buy wands / whatever solution they come up with.

It's always better to let PCs solve these problems their own way then to drop a solution in their lap.

- Saph

kreytor
2007-07-25, 07:07 AM
Thanks for all the responses. This is a unique problem as my groups normally have at least one or two people who can cast some cure spells or use magic device. I will have to remember to give them more cure potions, but I think adding a Healing NPC might be a good idea.

One idea I had for the NPC was a Spiritual Advisor type. Basically a ghost or ancestor spirit who is helping. Maybe because the ghost can't remember why hes here anymore and the PC's seem like good folks.

The spirit NPC makes it easy to keep them from being killed. Plus great roleplaying moments when the invisible creature is chatting in your ear in front of the Mayor/Merchant House leader, etc...

Another idea was the intelligent animated item. While a intelligent magical item can cast cure moderate wounds 3x a day as a minor power, if it has a different alignment it might take bribes for healing.

When the characters get high enough level for an NPC cohort, I hope one of them takes leadership, but at this point only one person looks like he might do that. I will have to wait 3 levels to find out.

Thanks Everyone!

Dausuul
2007-07-25, 07:12 AM
I think I would just push them up to 6th as fast as possible, and strongly recommend that somebody take Leadership and get a favored soul with Augment Healing. IMO, that's the whole point of the Leadership feat; to fill out slots that the party needs but nobody wants to play, like the proverbial heal-bitch. Two of the characters are Charisma-users, so they shouldn't have trouble with this.

In the meantime, shower them with healing potions and the like. Alternatively, offer to let a healer NPC join them and act as somebody's cohort, on condition that that character takes Leadership immediately upon reaching 6th.


Have to agree with Thinker on this. It's a bad idea to make an adventure cater too obviously to the party's makeup. It makes those players who HAVE planned ahead and tried to cover their weaknesses feel useless. I'd recommend it if you're playing with newbies, but not otherwise.

Mm... it's one thing to not go easy on the party when they make dumb decisions, like not packing bows on an adventure with flying monsters. It's quite another to effectively demand that somebody make a character they don't want to play.

ZeroNumerous
2007-07-25, 07:28 AM
Anyone with a PC class (lvl 1) is 30 gp/day. And that's assuming reasonably safe working condictions.
Reference from SBG.

Don't know what you're talking about.. but.. Trained Hireling (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#hirelingTrained). 3 sp/day. I'd think a medic(Cleric level X) qualifies as 'trained'. I'd allow a Gather Information check to see if they find a Cleric of any sort who's willing to go with them. Chances are, there's atleast one Cleric Level 1 who's willing to go. From then on, just cut the Cleric in for the XP.

Arbitrarity
2007-07-25, 07:34 AM
I once played with another player, before I understood how wealth worked. He was payed 100gp/day. However, I had an income of 200gp/day from a bank, which I had bought, thanks to the DM making a monster that ate gold, and s*** diamonds. Literally. And it was a demi-friendly NPC.

I think that was a special case in cost terms.

Thinker
2007-07-25, 08:02 AM
Don't know what you're talking about.. but.. Trained Hireling (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#hirelingTrained). 3 sp/day. I'd think a medic(Cleric level X) qualifies as 'trained'. I'd allow a Gather Information check to see if they find a Cleric of any sort who's willing to go with them. Chances are, there's atleast one Cleric Level 1 who's willing to go. From then on, just cut the Cleric in for the XP.

He is referring to the Stronghold Builder's Guide, another book published by WotC. It gives guidelines for creating a stronghold and staffing it. One of the options for a staff is "Any PC Class" at 30gp per month. It says in the text that these are assumed to be 1st level and have a 12 or 13 in their primary attribute. Unfortunately it does not say what to do about hirelings higher than 1st level in that book.

Argent
2007-07-25, 08:38 AM
Mm... it's one thing to not go easy on the party when they make dumb decisions, like not packing bows on an adventure with flying monsters. It's quite another to effectively demand that somebody make a character they don't want to play.

My thoughts exactly. I'd rather see a little DM collusion (stocking a few extra healing potions/wands in stores, having some extra healing potions appearing in monster treasure, that kind of thing) instead of forcing someone to play a character type they don't want to. (Plus, having an NPC cleric is always a pain in the butt. Takes the DM's attention away from running combats and adventures when they have to play a DMPC.)

Thinker
2007-07-25, 09:05 AM
My thoughts exactly. I'd rather see a little DM collusion (stocking a few extra healing potions/wands in stores, having some extra healing potions appearing in monster treasure, that kind of thing) instead of forcing someone to play a character type they don't want to. (Plus, having an NPC cleric is always a pain in the butt. Takes the DM's attention away from running combats and adventures when they have to play a DMPC.)

When are healing potions and wands not available in stores? There are plenty of monsters where it would be reasonable to find potions of all sorts. An NPC cleric doesn't have to be a pain in the butt if all the DM has to do is track spells per day. If there's no emphasis on the NPC the DM won't have to roleplay it often. Quiet and thoughtful is a valid personality type.

Dausuul
2007-07-25, 09:53 AM
When are healing potions and wands not available in stores? There are plenty of monsters where it would be reasonable to find potions of all sorts.

The question is how much of that is coming out of their wealth by level... if it's all counting against WBL, the party will suffer considerably.


An NPC cleric doesn't have to be a pain in the butt if all the DM has to do is track spells per day. If there's no emphasis on the NPC the DM won't have to roleplay it often. Quiet and thoughtful is a valid personality type.

It's still a pain to keep track of in battle. Of course, this can be solved by handing the NPC to a player to control in combat situations.

Arbitrarity
2007-07-25, 10:16 AM
In theory, WBL doesn't include a few temporary items that will be used up, which is why treasure tables give a bit more gold than WBL.

OverdrivePrime
2007-07-25, 10:29 AM
For this kind of party/game I actually suggest using the Armor as Damage Conversion rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/damageConversion.htm). They work pretty well, and have the added bonus of giving an illusion of being somewhat more realistic than the standard armor rules.

This means that your Knight can tank a little better, and heal most of his (now non-lethal) injuries over the course of the day. Same goes for the other armored characters (hopefully the scout isn't tanking, but he'll still draw some fire), and still highlights the mage's vulnerability.


Otherwise, yeah, strongly suggest that one of them snag the Leadership feat, or cross-class to something that can use heal wands.

Argent
2007-07-25, 11:52 AM
When are healing potions and wands not available in stores? There are plenty of monsters where it would be reasonable to find potions of all sorts.

Yes and yes. However, there are generally finite amounts of potions/wands available in stores, and not every monster will just happen to have a potion/wand as part of its treasure. A party without a cleric will need more of these items (and therefore more than would ordinarily be available), so some DM collusion is necessary to perhaps artificially provide more of these items.


An NPC cleric doesn't have to be a pain in the butt if all the DM has to do is track spells per day. If there's no emphasis on the NPC the DM won't have to roleplay it often. Quiet and thoughtful is a valid personality type.

This doesn't take combat into account. Even the quietest, most thoughtful, unobtrusive NPC needs to be maneuvered around in combat. It takes DM time to deal with NPCs; I'd rather see a DM have that time back to deal with the players and the monsters, and have the amount of healing magic available be a bit unrealistic.

mostlyharmful
2007-07-25, 12:12 PM
If you don't alter the way you DM they will be inconvenienced, If you do however the party has now been handed a world that works differently for them than for everyone else, you may as well refer to all NPCs as redshirts cause if they want to leave a big hole in their party there should be consequences (note consequences not TPK cause that's just boring).

that being said, if you want to comply with the party (and their is an arguement for "well we're the people available and none of us happen to be a Cleric" which is fair enough) Hit them with paralysis, dieases, ability drain and slow moving undead to run away from, it won't kill them but it would be a whole lot easier with a devine caster.

Is the reason there isn't a cleric or druid an ingame lack of the same which can lead to much more interesting worlds, or just because no-one wants to be a healbot?

Rachel Lorelei
2007-07-25, 12:19 PM
If you don't alter the way you DM they will be inconvenienced, If you do however the party has now been handed a world that works differently for them than for everyone else, you may as well refer to all NPCs as redshirts cause if they want to leave a big hole in their party there should be consequences (note consequences not TPK cause that's just boring).
Why should there be consequences? You never hear "someone better play a bard or else." Why is it "someone better play a cleric or druid (but preferably a cleric) or else"? The world *already* works differently for PCs. They're the PCs. They're having the adventures.

The point of the game is to have fun. A whole lot of people don't have fun when their main role is to heal the other players. That's why clerics and druids are the tough combat-capable classes they are in 3.0/3.5, but that doesn't sway a lot of people.
And if someone wants to play a rogue, they shouldn't have to play a cleric. It's relatively easy to compensate--just get them a certain amount of availible healing from other sources.
The party's already weaker for lack of a cleric or druid--no need to hurt them further.


I really don't understand the style of DMing that refuses to "cater to the players". DMing isn't a general case, you're DMing for a specific group of people--and, presumably, you want them to have fun. Sitting around all day after every encounter? Not fun. Selling your necessary equipment to pay for healing? Not fun. The DM isn't some sort of computer running a dungeon--the DM should be working with the players for a good time for all.

mostlyharmful
2007-07-25, 12:38 PM
this isn't about catering to the party, good magic shops with available potions/wands, monsters that pack wands/potions, cohorts, etc. is catering. The issue is that not having a combat medic has repurcussions, it doesn't have to be the focus of the character (medical kits, UMD, level dips, etc), removing the repurcussions is something that can be done a few times but if it gets to be a habit you've stopped challenging the PCs. Repurcussions can lead to good roleplay and the sense of realism in the game world, if you want to have the characters wade into combat then do so but don't expect them to regard combat as scary or leathel.

Arbitrarity
2007-07-25, 12:42 PM
I have no after combat healing. Combat is lethal.

I have after combat healing. Combat is still friggin' lethal.

tainsouvra
2007-07-25, 12:51 PM
Available sources of healing:
1- Magic items.
2- PC's with healing or even secondary healing.
3- Feats to enhance healing.
4- Cohorts via leadership.
5- NPC's via gold or favors.

It's totally fine if the players skip one or two of those. Skipping all five is a conscious decision, and the DM is not being antagonistic by allowing them to make that decision. It would, in fact, be a heavy-handed DM who forced them to have something that they consciously decided to not bring.

Also, to anyone talking about a "heal bitch", you've been playing too many MMO-style games. D&D doesn't have those, it has clerics/paladins/druids/etc, who are all well-rounded classes rather than cure-spell dispensers. Druids, in particular, are so much fun that my old group cringes when they think of the havoc I caused with my last one...healing them afterward was more adding insult to injury than my primary reason for being there (handing the BBEG his spleen was the primary reason).

Remus of Rome
2007-07-25, 12:56 PM
one thing my brother did with his group when there were no clerics is he made the interdimentional cleric to heal them when they were about to die but they only got a number of times equal to the clerics powers who was a lvl equal to the groups avg lvl

d12
2007-07-25, 12:58 PM
The solution to such a problem is (potentially) very simple:

Sorcerers/wizards can use healing magic.

Boom, problem solved. If they still don't feel like knowing/preparing healing spells? That's why God invented wands. It really doesn't need to be any more complicated than that.

Telonius
2007-07-25, 12:58 PM
Why should there be consequences? You never hear "someone better play a bard or else." Why is it "someone better play a cleric or druid (but preferably a cleric) or else"? The world *already* works differently for PCs. They're the PCs. They're having the adventures.

The point of the game is to have fun. A whole lot of people don't have fun when their main role is to heal the other players. That's why clerics and druids are the tough combat-capable classes they are in 3.0/3.5, but that doesn't sway a lot of people.
And if someone wants to play a rogue, they shouldn't have to play a cleric. It's relatively easy to compensate--just get them a certain amount of availible healing from other sources.
The party's already weaker for lack of a cleric or druid--no need to hurt them further.


I really don't understand the style of DMing that refuses to "cater to the players". DMing isn't a general case, you're DMing for a specific group of people--and, presumably, you want them to have fun. Sitting around all day after every encounter? Not fun. Selling your necessary equipment to pay for healing? Not fun. The DM isn't some sort of computer running a dungeon--the DM should be working with the players for a good time for all.

It's not that no one is playing any particular class. It's that this particular party has left an entire party role unfilled. Meatshield, Skillmonkey, Arcane caster, Healer. Almost every campaign assumes that the party will have some capability in each of those four areas. All of the CR and ECL stuff is balanced for a party that fills all of those roles. If any party is completely lacking in one of those roles, the party will have a very difficult time.

As you said, the first rule of D&D is, "Have fun." If the DM has to plan around that kind of a gaping hole in the party makeup, it is a lot of long and tedious work. Regardless of which party role is missing, fixing that gap means rebalancing every single foe in the monster manual, going over every single encounter you planned to make sure that it won't be a TPK, and quite possibly rejiggering an entire campaign to accommodate a very silly decision on the part of the players. This is not fun for a DM. The players have to take a bit of responsibility at some point as well.

Argent
2007-07-25, 01:31 PM
this isn't about catering to the party, good magic shops with available potions/wands, monsters that pack wands/potions, cohorts, etc. is catering. The issue is that not having a combat medic has repurcussions, it doesn't have to be the focus of the character (medical kits, UMD, level dips, etc), removing the repurcussions is something that can be done a few times but if it gets to be a habit you've stopped challenging the PCs. Repurcussions can lead to good roleplay and the sense of realism in the game world, if you want to have the characters wade into combat then do so but don't expect them to regard combat as scary or leathel.

There's a disconnect in your argument here. Yes, changing the amount of healing magic available to the party is indeed catering -- but so what? That way, the players are having fun playing their chosen character type, and all it took was providing a small increase in the amount of healing items generally available. And changing the balance somewhat to accomodate the lack of clerics doesn't necessarily lead to combats being less lethal or scary, at least, not if you're a half competent DM. Any good DM has to do a certain amount of balancing and altering on the fly, and this is just another example of that necessary flexibility. I've played in multiple campaigns that had no cleric available. It was a challenge, yes, and there were times that we wished we had one -- but it wasn't gamebreaking.

LotharBot
2007-07-25, 01:32 PM
I don't know where people get the idea that a cleric is the "heal-bitch" in 3.5. Don't use your own spells for healing; use wands of CLW or vigor. Make the party pay for them. Only use actual spell slots for healing if the situation is dire. And you're still one of the best full casters in the game, even if you don't wade into melee.

As for your specific party: if the scout takes a quick dip into Ranger, he can use wands of CLW. If he takes a dip into Rogue and puts all of his skill points into UMD, he can also use wands of CLW or similar.

I strongly agree with both Telonious and tainsouvra. There are many ways your party could get some out-of-combat healing. This is another challenge for THEM to overcome. It's silly to force you as DM to have to overcome the challenge every single time you plan an encounter. They need to solve it once and for all, however they do it.

MrNexx
2007-07-25, 01:42 PM
Those magic items are part of the power their characters are supposed to have. Without them, they'll get hurt more, have to spend more money, etc. Potions are an expensive way to heal during downtime.

Besides, it's still punishing the group because nobody felt like being the proverbial heal-bitch.

Part of being in a party is having a balanced party, with a mix of skills. One of the big skills that is required is healing. If your party does not have healing, and you expect your DM to cater to you... then you might as well go play padless tackle football in a parking lot, and see how much "the DM" of life caters to your lack of foresight.

My suggestion: Make the players pay for their healing. Eventually, they'll get sick of buying potions of CLW, and figure they can buy a Wondrous Item that will cast some minor healing a few times a day for a bit more. It's one of the magic items that's forming part of their strength... but it's necessary because they're not prepared for the life of an adventurer.

Yakk
2007-07-25, 01:53 PM
The healing dependency of D&D is a flaw in the game, in my opinion. Healing should be useful, but making it as passive a job as it is in D&D and making it as powerful and as built into the game's assumptions is a bad idea.

So here is a house-ruled system that generates a heroic fantasy feel aimed at making D&D style adventures work in a low-healing world.

Soak:

Soak is equal to (Sum total of all static AC bonuses)+(Constitution Bonus)+(HD bonus).

Temporary increases to AC during a fight do not grant Soak. Losses to your AC bonuses removes that Soak for that fight. Lowering your shield to attack costs you that soak, and you cannot get it back during that fight.

HD soak bonus is:
+0.5 for every 1d4
+1 for every 1d6
+1.5 for every 1d8
+2 for every 1d10
+2.5 for every 1d12

Every +10 HD soak bonus allows the player to add an additional Con Bonus to their Soak.

Round fractions down.

How Soak works:
Whenever you are hit, you deduct it from Soak instead of HP.
For every 10 points of Soak or fraction thereof from an attack you take, you also lose 1 HP.

Critical hits bypass Soak.

Soak refreshes rapidly after a fight. If there is no strong time pressure for the next fight (ie, creatures running to hear the commotion, a chase scene after a fleeing creature, or other reason not to spend time doing basic recovery), one's Soak is fully refreshed in each and every fight. If initiative order ends and there is even a brief breather, Soak is half refreshed (round down, as usual).

Example:
Bob the Fighter has 30 Soak and 40 HP.
He is hit by an arrow for 13 damage. This reduces Bob's Soak to 17, and also does 2 points of HP damage -- 17 Soak, 38 HP.
He is then hit by a critical attack with an axe for 16 damage. This is applied directly to HP, and Bob is now at 17 Soak and 24 HP.

The fight ends. Bob's Soak refreshes to 30.

The party is then ambushed by a spear trap. Three hit Bob for 3, 4 and 2 damage. This costs Bob 3 HP and 9 Soak. Bob regains half of this Soak before the Goblins, alerted by the trap, attack. He is at 21 HP and 25 Soak at the start of the fight.

He survives this fight taking another 3 points of HP damage.

The Party finishes searching the catacombs, and doesn't find any other creatures. They rest up for the night. To be continued...

Examples:
Level 5 Knight wearing Full Plate+1 and a Large Shield+2 with 18 Con and 12 Dex:
14+4*2+12 = 34 soak.

Level 5 Rogue wearing Leather+2 and 12 con 20 dex
9+1+5 = 15 soak.

Level 5 Wizard with 10 con
0+0+0+2 = 2 soak

Level 5 Barbarian wearing Hide+2 with 22 Con and 16 dex:
9+6*2+12 = 33 soak

Level 5 Ranger wearing Chain Shirt+2 with 16 Con and 16 dex:
9+3+7 = 19 soak

Healing:
Healing is weaker under the Soak model. A healing spell or effect can only heal (spell level*2)+(caster level/2) actual HP (rounded down), any excess is applied to Soak.

Resting:
You can gain up to (con stat) HP from a night's rest. However, this cannot heal more than half of your wounds, rounded up.

Ie, if you have taken 15 HP of damage, a night's rest cannot heal more than 8 HP.

A Heal check can heal +1 HP for every 10 on the heal check. The Healer takes a -5 penalty on all rolls for every patient past the first.

If one has access to healing materials, one heals an extra +1 HP for 1 gp in materials, +2 HP for 10 gp, +3 HP for 100 gp, +4 HP for 1000 gp, etc. used.

If one has access to civilized accomidations and one rests for an entire day, one heals an extra +1 for 1 sp per day, +2 for 1 gp per day, +3 for 10 gp per day. This is limited by one's social standing, willingness to stand out, and local level of civilization: most places don't have a place where you can spend 10 gp per day on living.

Note you heal up to your con stat, not your con bonus. So someone who has taken 100 damage with 20 con would have:
100
80
60
40
20
10 Note: cannot heal more than half of remaining damage
5
2
1
0
damage left, taking a total of 9 days to heal up, without medical attention or civilized rest.

Example:
When last we saw Bob, he was at 18/40 HP. Pretty beat up.

Bob has 16 Constitution, so he can heal up to 16 HP per night. However, he can also only heal up to half of the damage he's taken -- 11 HP.

Bob wakes up with 29/40 HP left. One of the party members used up 10 gp in healing materials and rolled a 16 on their healing check, healing Bob another 3 HP, for a total of 32/40 HP.

Wounded, Bob's party decides to advance, rather than waste another day recovering.

Goals:
The Soak mechanics make "light combat" less dangerous for the front line fighters. They will take some damage (criticals and a bit of damage on every hit that gets soaked), but if they are careful they won't take that much real HP damage.

The changes to healing make it harder to leverage heal-bots or heal-potions with the Soak mechanics.

The increased healing from rests allows a weeks break between adventures to be more than enough to be ready to go again. The "at most half of your wounds" prevents a night's rest from completely clearing damage all of the time, so resting after every fight isn't nearly as tempting.

Daerwyn
2007-07-25, 02:11 PM
I don't know where people get the idea that a cleric is the "heal-bitch" in 3.5. Don't use your own spells for healing; use wands of CLW or vigor. Make the party pay for them. Only use actual spell slots for healing if the situation is dire. And you're still one of the best full casters in the game, even if you don't wade into melee.

As for your specific party: if the scout takes a quick dip into Ranger, he can use wands of CLW. If he takes a dip into Rogue and puts all of his skill points into UMD, he can also use wands of CLW or similar.

I strongly agree with both Telonious and tainsouvra. There are many ways your party could get some out-of-combat healing. This is another challenge for THEM to overcome. It's silly to force you as DM to have to overcome the challenge every single time you plan an encounter. They need to solve it once and for all, however they do it.

Thank you, thank you, and thank you.
No core class is exclusively a heal-bot. Well, I suppose you could build your character that way, but that's a player choice. Even if the cleric has healing as a domain, and thus theoretically a focus, that's one spell per spell level. He still has other spells that he can fill out with whatever non-healing spell he feels like, and thus the player still gets to cast whatever spells he wants to fill out the flavor of his character.

I think the debate and possible tension here (with implicated DM libel and skirted ad hominem arguments) revolves around why we play the game. The way I see it, there are two reasons to play the game: 1 - to have fun, and it doesn't matter what rules get broken along the way, because the rules are there just to help make sure everyone has fun OR 2 - to play a game, where fun is a derivative of the pleasure you get from playing the game. Subtle difference; does anyone else know what I'm talking about?

The point of all that was to say that those who feel that the DM should not have to save the players from their own choices are playing the game to play a game. The game has rules and assumptions, and if you ignore those rules and assumptions then your game may suffer. Those that feel that the DM should work around the characters and challenge them based on the choices they make are more interested in the social dynamic and just having fun from being around the table.

Naturally those are simplifications and there's often overlap.

But let me ask this: if you're playing a console RPG - just say FFXII because I happen to be playing it again now - and you decide to not build any of your characters with the Cure line of spells, do you a - decide the game is too hard because you keep dying and throw your controller down in disgust, b - buy hella hi-potions and max out the +potion healing lisences, or c - train a freakin' healer?

Yakk
2007-07-25, 02:13 PM
But let me ask this: if you're playing a console RPG - just say FFXII because I happen to be playing it again now - and you decide to not build any of your characters with the Cure line of spells, do you a - decide the game is too hard because you keep dying and throw your controller down in disgust, b - buy hella hi-potions and max out the +potion healing lisences, or c - train a freakin' healer?

Or d - play a game with an open-source combat engine, and mod the game engine. :)

BardicDuelist
2007-07-25, 02:17 PM
A suggestion for the DMPC problem:
Let the players move him/her around in combat. Have them hired to strictly be a healer, or give them a spell selection that would allow for little else, and leave it to the players to keep them safe. You simply roleplay interaction (which may or may not be necessary, but a spiritual advisor thing would work well) and keep track of spells (easy with a healer, but even with a cleric/druid/adept, etc. not that hard).

To give the players healing w/o items, making new characters, or a DMPC:
We houseruled that Wis. is for DC, but primary casting for the ability to use the spells in the case of the feat that lets Arcanists take domain spells. This might help, as having one of your casters take the healing domain at the cost of a feat (and letting them take a flaw so as to not screw their character concept, I recomend murkey-eyed) would not make them into a heal-bitch, but allow them to heal. Perhaps this would be a happy medium?

mudbunny
2007-07-25, 02:38 PM
Got a group of four in my campaign: Sorcerer, Wizard, Knight and Scout. They are about third level coming up on fourth pretty quickly. I am having a hard time challenging them without wounding them. They take a long time to heal up from any decent battle. With only one meatshield, once he gets hurt they are very reluctant to continue into dangersous areas.

A couple of ideas, some of them already mentioned:
Potions
Give the scout UMD as a class skill, let them find a wand of CLWs.
Potions.
Give the knight or scout some skill points in heal, and a couple of healer's kits.
Potions.
Increase the healing they receive overnight.
Potions.

Saph
2007-07-25, 05:53 PM
I don't know where people get the idea that a cleric is the "heal-bitch" in 3.5. Don't use your own spells for healing; use wands of CLW or vigor. Make the party pay for them. Only use actual spell slots for healing if the situation is dire. And you're still one of the best full casters in the game, even if you don't wade into melee.

Yeah, I really have no idea how anyone can still think that playing a Cleric or Druid somehow makes you a character who'll spend all their time healing. They're outrageously powerful, arguably the strongest classes in the game at most levels, and one or two wands will take care of half a campaign's worth of healing.

Having no healing in the party is a problem. Solving problems is what most D&D games are all about. It's not like it's all that hard to find ways to heal without having a cleric. Just let the players handle it. Games are generally more fun when the PCs figure out their own solutions, rather than the DM solving it for them.

- Saph

tainsouvra
2007-07-25, 10:53 PM
Yeah, I really have no idea how anyone can still think that playing a Cleric or Druid somehow makes you a character who'll spend all their time healing. I'd say it's from playing too many MMO's, but actually even those are realizing that "pure healer all the time" is dull and slowly diverting.

Kaerou
2007-07-25, 10:58 PM
Hire a CLeric NPC
Scout UMD + wand of cure X
Potions

Lavin
2007-07-25, 11:16 PM
I had to DM a campaign where I only had two players. It was alright, EXCEPT...! No healer. My solution? I made Healing Potions readily available and moderately priced. This prevented them from stocking up on nothing but healing potions, yet made it as if there were a healer in the party. It worked for me!

Matthew
2007-07-26, 05:45 PM
I think the debate and possible tension here (with implicated DM libel and skirted ad hominem arguments) revolves around why we play the game. The way I see it, there are two reasons to play the game: 1 - to have fun, and it doesn't matter what rules get broken along the way, because the rules are there just to help make sure everyone has fun OR 2 - to play a game, where fun is a derivative of the pleasure you get from playing the game. Subtle difference; does anyone else know what I'm talking about?

Good point, that. A lot depends on whether you build Parties for Adventures or you build Adventures for Parties.

Skjaldbakka
2007-07-26, 06:24 PM
I think that using Reserve (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/reservePoints.htm)+ increased potion loot if they kill the enemies before they drink them is a good plan, with the least effort involved.

Damionte
2007-07-26, 08:26 PM
Part of being in a party is having a balanced party, with a mix of skills. One of the big skills that is required is healing. If your party does not have healing, and you expect your DM to cater to you... then you might as well go play padless tackle football in a parking lot, and see how much "the DM" of life caters to your lack of foresight.

Exactly.

Also fro the "it's no fun to play the heal bot" crowd. It's not nessesary to playheal bot to be a cleric or any of the other healing classes. You can fill the healing role with very few spell slots.

A combat healer is not nessesary. You only need enough healing to top of the warriors after combat. That's to newer healing spells like the Vigor line this is much easier to do with fewer spell slots/points.

What this means at each level if you're the healer. Well at low levels you may need to save a coupel 1st level slots for a lesser vigor or cure light wounds instead of casting something else. Then again, what else did you need to caste at 1st level that is doing as much as lesser vigor.

If you're the healer part of your job is healign when the fight is over. So save soem of your spells for that. The reason clerics and druids get so many other goodies is to give them something else to do in combat other than burning thier spell slots. That's why both classes are also good in melee. You don't need to be burning more than a coupel spells in an actual fight.

I know some people just don't liek cleric but guess what someone needs to play one. The game is designed for a balanced 4 man party. Warrior, Healer, Skillmonkey, arcanist. Take one away and you have a problem. Take the healer away and you have a BIG problem. It's the only one of the big 4 you can't really do without.