How badly would things break to add exhaustion on top of X/day abilities

[Larpus]

Got the idea from a discussion in another thread and how Frenzy's exhaustion mechanics might've been an alternative/overhaul of the current X/day mechanics.

So, basically I'm asking:

Ignoring the existence of Frenzy and other abilities which already cause exhaustion on use (because they'd first need to be converted to X/rest format), how badly would the game break if abilities that are currently X/rest now could also be used more times by taking exhaustion levels for each additional time they're used?

I do intend to include spell slots in the discussion at least, possibly with a harder limit for them, limiting this "exhaust = extra slots" mechanic to up to spell level 3~5 at maximum.

Does it make any difference if it were open to only martial classes as opposed to everyone? Would this make them too powerful?

There're too many X/rest abilities to list and I haven't read far into all the classes as of now, so I won't list them, if anyone thinks of a particularly problematic one, by all means mention it.

This is meant to be a discussion, I'm not making any particular claim or anything, just want input on possibly problematic abilities that do need a hard rest-cycle limit that not even a dreaded exhaust level balances.

[N810]

Maybe you could start with a list of all the once a day abilities ???

[DanyBallon]

Here's a few x/day abilities from the top of my head:

Rage
Action surge
Spell slots


Would this happen for x/rest abilities?

[Larpus]

Maybe you could start with a list of all the once a day abilities ???

Changing the idea to x/rest abilities, there are now way too many to list and I honestly don't have enough knowledge (nor time to learn) about all classes, so I won't be listing any, but if you can think of one x/rest ability that might become problematic, please, do mention it.


Here's a few x/day abilities from the top of my head:

Rage
Action surge
Spell slots


Would this happen for x/rest abilities?

Upon some better investigation....there are surprisingly very little x/day or, more appropriately, x/long rest, abilities.

So yeah, I suppose x/rest abilities are fair play, originally didn't plan on including them as an exhaustion level sounds overboard for them, but I can see the strategic value in being able to use an ability without the needed recharge even at a steep price.

Also didn't intend to include spell slots, but they have precedence in fiction and worthy of inclusion for the discussion at least.

Perhaps they'd need a stricter rule since higher level magic gets so game-breaking, so perhaps limiting this exhaustion mechanic it to level 3~5 slots maximum.

[CursedRhubarb]

Perhaps they'd need a stricter rule since higher level magic gets so game-breaking, so perhaps limiting this exhaustion mechanic it to level 3~5 slots maximum.

Limiting spells to only lvl 3,4, and 5 spell slots would make it so casters wouldn't be able to use the exhaustion ability until lvl 5 where martials could use it from lvl 1.

[DanyBallon]

Changing the idea to x/rest abilities, there are now way too many to list and I honestly don't have enough knowledge (nor time to learn) about all classes, so I won't be listing any, but if you can think of one x/rest ability that might become problematic, please, do mention it.



Upon some better investigation....there are surprisingly very little x/day or, more appropriately, x/long rest, abilities.

So yeah, I suppose x/rest abilities are fair play, originally didn't plan on including them as an exhaustion level sounds overboard for them, but I can see the strategic value in being able to use an ability without the needed recharge even at a steep price.

Also didn't intend to include spell slots, but they have precedence in fiction and worthy of inclusion for the discussion at least.

Perhaps they'd need a stricter rule since higher level magic gets so game-breaking, so perhaps limiting this exhaustion mechanic it to level 3~5 slots maximum.

That was my concern as well. Limiting that mechanic to level slots 1-5 (I included level 1-2 as well because, even if they won't see much uses, it still may be useful at lower level) will prevent a wizard to cast wish twice a day to the cost of a single exhaustion level.

[Quoxis]

Action surge up to 5 times per day at level 2 seems OP. That's all i'll say.

[tomato]

Here's a few x/day abilities from the top of my head:

Rage
Action surge
Spell slots


Would this happen for x/rest abilities?

Action Surge recharges on a short rest, not a long rest.

[DanyBallon]

Action surge up to 5 times per day at level 2 seems OP. That's all i'll say.

The character that will use action surge up to 5 time per day at level 2 will end up near dead, and have no mean to reduce the penalty from exhaustion, unlike the barbarian. He will also need to rest for almost a whole week to recover from exhaustion. It's up to the player to decide if it's worth the trouble.

[DanyBallon]

Action Surge recharges on a short rest, not a long rest.

oups! my bad :smallbiggrin:

[Mith]

Ideas: Casters pay 1 level of exhaustion per level of spell slot? This caps at 5, since I would rule that attempting to cast 6th level spells this way just kills the caster.

In order to extend an x/rest ability beyond x, make a Con save of DC 10 +(X+number of uses after you run out of "safe" uses). This signifies that the PC is pushing themselves well beyond their limits. For Casters IIRC, only Sorcerers get a Con save proficiency, so they will be the best at such saves. This makes sense as they are master manipulators of magic in a way no one else is. For Martials, this works for things such as Rage and Superiority Dice.

If one fails the save, they take the Exhaustion penalty, but do not succeed in gaining an extra use of resources. For short rest abilities, the DC resets on a short rest, but they do not recover resources until they complete a long rest

[DanyBallon]

I would be more inclined to have a fix DC(probably 20) and if you beat the DC on a CON saves you don't get an exhaustion level. This would favor best characters that have proficiency in CON saves. But may lead to abuses if a character maxed out it's CON saves.

[Cybren]

Ideas: Casters pay 1 level of exhaustion per level of spell slot? This caps at 5, since I would rule that attempting to cast 6th level spells this way just kills the caster.

In order to extend an x/rest ability beyond x, make a Con save of DC 10 +(X+number of uses after you run out of "safe" uses). This signifies that the PC is pushing themselves well beyond their limits. For Casters IIRC, only Sorcerers get a Con save proficiency, so they will be the best at such saves. This makes sense as they are master manipulators of magic in a way no one else is. For Martials, this works for things such as Rage and Superiority Dice.

If one fails the save, they take the Exhaustion penalty, but do not succeed in gaining an extra use of resources. For short rest abilities, the DC resets on a short rest, but they do not recover resources until they complete a long rest

I could see an alternative to the "only one spell of each level above 6th" rule in spell points replaced with "after your first spell above 6th level further ones cause a level of exhaustion"

[Larpus]

Limiting spells to only lvl 3,4, and 5 spell slots would make it so casters wouldn't be able to use the exhaustion ability until lvl 5 where martials could use it from lvl 1.

Poor phrasing on my part, I really did mean "up to level 3/4/5", with the level 3~5 meant as the unsure capping point as I'm still not 100% familiar with 5e spells and overall spell power, though 5 seemed like a fair maximum point with 3 being the bare minimum cap for it to remain useful at later levels.


Ideas: Casters pay 1 level of exhaustion per level of spell slot? This caps at 5, since I would rule that attempting to cast 6th level spells this way just kills the caster.

In order to extend an x/rest ability beyond x, make a Con save of DC 10 +(X+number of uses after you run out of "safe" uses). This signifies that the PC is pushing themselves well beyond their limits. For Casters IIRC, only Sorcerers get a Con save proficiency, so they will be the best at such saves. This makes sense as they are master manipulators of magic in a way no one else is. For Martials, this works for things such as Rage and Superiority Dice.

If one fails the save, they take the Exhaustion penalty, but do not succeed in gaining an extra use of resources. For short rest abilities, the DC resets on a short rest, but they do not recover resources until they complete a long rest

While I certainly don't dislike your idea, I'm not the greatest fan of leaving such a thing up to chance as exhaustion levels seem nasty enough, at least at lower levels and I meant it more as an "heroic effort", so having chance involved might have the opposite effect.

That said, I can certainly see the merit in not leaving it as dependable as "1 exhaustion = 1 more use of the thing" depending on the DM, campaign or players.

[Pex]

Very.

Do anything and suddenly a PC is Disadvantaged on all ability checks, making it that much easier to fail at tasks. Do anything more and it just gets worse.

PCs should not be punished for doing things they are supposed to do. It is bad enough Frenzy gives exhaustion.

I've been playing 5E Middle Earth. PCs can get exhaustion in the Journey phase just because the Guide rolled low on a d12. It's one thing about the game rules I really don't like. The game becomes harder just because. It's frustration, not fun.

[DanyBallon]

Very.

Do anything and suddenly a PC is Disadvantaged on all ability checks, making it that much easier to fail at tasks. Do anything more and it just gets worse.

PCs should not be punished for doing things they are supposed to do. It is bad enough Frenzy gives exhaustion.

I've been playing 5E Middle Earth. PCs can get exhaustion in the Journey phase just because the Guide rolled low on a d12. It's one thing about the game rules I really don't like. The game becomes harder just because. It's frustration, not fun.

I think, you missed the point. The idea is to allow class features to go beyond the limit of x/rest, at the cost of an exhaustion level. So if you could rage twice per day and want to rage a third time, you can, but you will get an exhaustion level for using it a third time.

[N810]

Ahhh, ok

I rather like it then.

[Pex]

I think, you missed the point. The idea is to allow class features to go beyond the limit of x/rest, at the cost of an exhaustion level. So if you could rage twice per day and want to rage a third time, you can, but you will get an exhaustion level for using it a third time.

Oh.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3FnpaWQJO0

:smallsmile:

[SharkForce]

just make sure you account for ways to remove exhaustion levels and especially ways to become immune to exhaustion.

[retaliation08]

Things like Portent and the Lucky feat may be problematic since the nature of the abilities allows them to potentially override the penalty for overuse by adding extra die rolls to counter the disadvantage from exhaustion.

[Cybren]

those are a little bit different though, portent tells you to roll so many dice, it's not an ability that has X number of uses per long rest, and lucky likewise gives you a pool that you can use to power things, not "up to three times per long rest you can do this", else, you'd have to apply that to sorcery points

[DanyBallon]

just make sure you account for ways to remove exhaustion levels and especially ways to become immune to exhaustion.

Why?
Being immune to exhaustion, or easy way to remove exhaustion, would mean that they will be able to get more use than normally available for free. Wouldn't this unbalance the game?

[SharkForce]

Why?
Being immune to exhaustion, or easy way to remove exhaustion, would mean that they will be able to get more use than normally available for free. Wouldn't this unbalance the game?

that would be why it's important to take those things into account.

[DanyBallon]

that would be why it's important to take those things into account.

My bad, I was reading it as if you were suggesting to add means to remove or be immune to exhaustion.

As far as I know only Greater restauration can remove an exhaustion level. I can't remember well, but maybe the Warforged in Eberron UA was immune to exhaustion, but UA are known to not be balanced.

[SharkForce]

My bad, I was reading it as if you were suggesting to add means to remove or be immune to exhaustion.

As far as I know only Greater restauration can remove an exhaustion level. I can't remember well, but maybe the Warforged in Eberron UA was immune to exhaustion, but UA are known to not be balanced.

elementals are also immune to exhaustion ;)

[Mith]

While I certainly don't dislike your idea, I'm not the greatest fan of leaving such a thing up to chance as exhaustion levels seem nasty enough, at least at lower levels and I meant it more as an "heroic effort", so having chance involved might have the opposite effect.

That said, I can certainly see the merit in not leaving it as dependable as "1 exhaustion = 1 more use of the thing" depending on the DM, campaign or players.

I was taking inspiration from the already established Deathless effect of the Barbarian and Concentration effects.

[Larpus]

just make sure you account for ways to remove exhaustion levels and especially ways to become immune to exhaustion.

elementals are also immune to exhaustion ;)

You can't play as elementals though.....or can you?

Also, not taking into account UA stuff since that's not yet properly balanced, yadda, yadda and not everyone allows it anyway.


Things like Portent and the Lucky feat may be problematic since the nature of the abilities allows them to potentially override the penalty for overuse by adding extra die rolls to counter the disadvantage from exhaustion.
As mentioned, portent doesn't benefit from this proposed house-rule.

Lucky could apply in theory, since it's essentially "3/long rest".

I don't have a lot of experience with it though, since it's the first feat the DMs I play with ban, but even if it's allowed, I do agree that it's somewhat "the optimal use" of this house-rule.

I'd leave it to a DM call in this situation....in the hands of a player that solves pretty much everything with Lucky and/or a big group (where a single character is less likely to be rolling many things in a given day), it might be overpowered to allow it to work, but on the hands of a player who mixes and matches his strategies or small groups, it should be fair game.

I do agree that both abilities can be used to offset the effects of the first level of exhaustion, but that's ok, since they're both limited resources anyway and potent abilities even without the house-rule (to the point that Lucky is constantly banned as a feat).


I was taking inspiration from the already established Deathless effect of the Barbarian and Concentration effects.

I see, and it makes perfect sense, as I mentioned, I certainly don't dislike it.

I prefer something simpler and closer "do X, suffer Y", but your idea is good for situations where something more complex and/or up to chance might be a better idea, such as when the players/DM simply prefers it or perhaps when it's a big group, as in such situation a single character can somewhat compensate their exhaustion levels by simply relying on others.


Some closing thoughts, from the responses so far, it seems that not much would break at all and it might actually be an engaging mechanic to players as well as actually give exhaustion some meaningful use.

I'll certainly apply it whenever I DM next and might bug my current DM about including it in for a session or two as a test.

[DanyBallon]

You can't play as elementals though.....or can you?

Also, not taking into account UA stuff since that's not yet properly balanced, yadda, yadda and not everyone allows it anyway.

A moon druid can use wild shape to transform into elementals at 10th level. And there is also the polymorph spell.

[Mith]

I think Moon Druid is the only relavent one, as Polymorph means you lose class features, whereas Moon Druids can cast while Wildshaped if I recall correctly.

[SharkForce]

I think Moon Druid is the only relavent one, as Polymorph means you lose class features, whereas Moon Druids can cast while Wildshaped if I recall correctly.

also shapechange.

and potentially you could true polymorph a party member into a creature which is immune to exhaustion but has useful abilities you'd like to spam but which normally are X/day.

also magic jar, if you can find a suitable target (in fact, magic jar could allow for quite a few shenanigans simply by making another target eat the exhaustion penalties).

[Thrudd]

also shapechange.

and potentially you could true polymorph a party member into a creature which is immune to exhaustion but has useful abilities you'd like to spam but which normally are X/day.

also magic jar, if you can find a suitable target (in fact, magic jar could allow for quite a few shenanigans simply by making another target eat the exhaustion penalties).

You'd need to take those abilities and spells into account and include rules caveats - such as no spell casting or class ability use while changed into such a form (I think it should be that way anyway, regardless of the exhaustion rules). This keeps shenanigans to a minimum. True polymorph should be more of an auto-win against one enemy (change the enemy into something like a snail) spell rather than a way to permanently super-power the entire party by changing them into monster races immune to everything.

I think the exhaustion thing could be good to add an extra layer of resource management and another choice players can make weighing risk vs reward. For spells, I would say that prepared spells can be cast after spell slots have been exhausted at the cost of 1 exhaustion level/spell level. For other abilities that are refreshed on long rests, simply one exhaustion level per extra use.
If you're worried about more powerful abilities being overused, maybe exhaustion cost should be tied to the character level at which the ability becomes available, or have tiers of abilities. the first tier abilities, those rewarded in levels 1-4, cost 1 exhaustion. second tier that are granted at levels 5-10 cost 2 exhaustion, level 11-16 costs 3 exhaustion, and 17-20 costs 4 exhaustion. Or something similar, whatever seems balanced for the abilities that emerge at those levels.

[Larpus]

A moon druid can use wild shape to transform into elementals at 10th level. And there is also the polymorph spell.

Good catch, not terribly familiar with druids myself.

One possible "catch all" solution is to add the "effects or abilities that grant immunity to exhaustion cannot prevent the exhaustion levels gained from overusing abilities from setting in and applying their penalties".

Alternatively, let the exhaustion levels "stack up" and apply themselves all at once whenever the character in question reverts to a non-exhaustion immune form. This is much less preferred because it looks quite mean, adds bookkeeping and is still prone to abuse by somehow permanently becoming an elemental (or other such exhaustion-immune creature).


You'd need to take those abilities and spells into account and include rules caveats - such as no spell casting or class ability use while changed into such a form (I think it should be that way anyway, regardless of the exhaustion rules). This keeps shenanigans to a minimum. True polymorph should be more of an auto-win against one enemy (change the enemy into something like a snail) spell rather than a way to permanently super-power the entire party by changing them into monster races immune to everything.

I think the exhaustion thing could be good to add an extra layer of resource management and another choice players can make weighing risk vs reward. For spells, I would say that prepared spells can be cast after spell slots have been exhausted at the cost of 1 exhaustion level/spell level. For other abilities that are refreshed on long rests, simply one exhaustion level per extra use.
If you're worried about more powerful abilities being overused, maybe exhaustion cost should be tied to the character level at which the ability becomes available, or have tiers of abilities. the first tier abilities, those rewarded in levels 1-4, cost 1 exhaustion. second tier that are granted at levels 5-10 cost 2 exhaustion, level 11-16 costs 3 exhaustion, and 17-20 costs 4 exhaustion. Or something similar, whatever seems balanced for the abilities that emerge at those levels.

That's something I pondered about, but with how little data I have about higher level abilities and/or how nasty exhaustion levels truly are in play, I literally have no way of figuring out how good/bad causing multiple exhaustion levels at once would be good or not, especially considering that anything above exhaustion 2 is already pushing adventuring closer to "impossible" levels.

Will have to dig the books later to see how many of the higher level abilities (other than spell slots) are rest-dependant as, from the top of my head, martial classes (which are more or less the main guys I intend to make good use of this house-rule) seem stop getting new rest-dependant abilities at around level 7 or so and start only getting more uses of their stuff.

[Thrudd]

Good catch, not terribly familiar with druids myself.

One possible "catch all" solution is to add the "effects or abilities that grant immunity to exhaustion cannot prevent the exhaustion levels gained from overusing abilities from setting in and applying their penalties".

Alternatively, let the exhaustion levels "stack up" and apply themselves all at once whenever the character in question reverts to a non-exhaustion immune form. This is much less preferred because it looks quite mean, adds bookkeeping and is still prone to abuse by somehow permanently becoming an elemental (or other such exhaustion-immune creature).



That's something I pondered about, but with how little data I have about higher level abilities and/or how nasty exhaustion levels truly are in play, I literally have no way of figuring out how good/bad causing multiple exhaustion levels at once would be good or not, especially considering that anything above exhaustion 2 is already pushing adventuring closer to "impossible" levels.

Will have to dig the books later to see how many of the higher level abilities (other than spell slots) are rest-dependant as, from the top of my head, martial classes (which are more or less the main guys I intend to make good use of this house-rule) seem stop getting new rest-dependant abilities at around level 7 or so and start only getting more uses of their stuff.

Well, the good thing is it's the player's choice. Things that give higher exhaustion levels would be that way because you don't want them being used too often, especially spells. They already get the normal amount of uses, right? Only going beyond the normal allotment starts accruing exhaustion. If a wizard wants to really risk it to get an extra fireball and save the day, that's their choice.

[Kane0]

Sure, why not.

[Mith]

What about creatures immune to Exhaustion cannot push themselves to the point that they can use this feature?

If this is a permanent change, they cannot use the ability. If it is a temporary form, all levels of exhaustion catches up after they change back.

[DanyBallon]

What about creatures immune to Exhaustion cannot push themselves to the point that they can use this feature?

If this is a permanent change, they cannot use the ability. If it is a temporary form, all levels of exhaustion catches up after they change back.

That could be it. As long as this restriction is in the same description as this new feature, I'm fine with it. What I don't want is to rewrite existing feature description to add this new mechanic and have exceptions written elsewhere.

And how would we name this new feature? Overchannel and Frenzy are already used...
Over the limit? Pushing yourself?
It would be best if it was one word though...

[danksteel]

That could be it. As long as this restriction is in the same description as this new feature, I'm fine with it. What I don't want is to rewrite existing feature description to add this new mechanic and have exceptions written elsewhere.

And how would we name this new feature? Overchannel and Frenzy are already used...
Over the limit? Pushing yourself?
It would be best if it was one word though...

A different system (Mutants & Masterminds) calls a similar mechanic "Extra Effort".

[DanyBallon]

A different system (Mutants & Masterminds) calls a similar mechanic "Extra Effort".

Extra Effort sounds good to me! It won't be as easy to form a verb with it, but it's simple and give a good idea of what you are doing.


Someone wants to write a first draft for Extra Effort?