Opinions on Death Cleric

[Corginin]

Greetings!

I finally get to play in a game with access to any of the officially released books and have decided on playing a Death Cleric who follows The Raven Queen (ain't no animating dead up in here). However I am having a bit of trouble deciding on how to build the actual character and looking for some suggestions. Stats are standard array, don't really care one way or another about optimization to the max. Most likely I will see if the DM is ok with switching Animate Dead out for another 3rd level spell such as Speak with Dead or Bestow Curse.

A few ideas I have had so far are:


Dex based V. Human taking Booming Blade via Spell Sniper and wielding a whip/shield.
Dex based V. Human with Warcaster using a rapier/shield (would be the most boring I believe, though great feat)
Dex based V. Human with Magic Initiate for Find Familiar(Raven for the extra flavor) and booming blade.
Str based Half Orc using a flail/shield, would possibly start Fighter 1 for action surge and fighting style or Paladin 2 for smite and fighting style.
Dex based Kenku could also be interesting and fun to roleplay but may be hard to fit in with the backstory, though mimicry could be kinda fun with it also


Getting past that V. Human feat is proving a pain.

Bit of backstory, our party is an up and coming metal band by the name Death Saves (subject to change). We have only played a few gigs together but people like us. My character will be a male playing the lead guitar/backup vocals to our female lead singer whom is a warlock. Also in the band is a fighter, gnome ranger, and our manager is a bard who doesn't play music.
Looking for some suggestions or ideas on how to build this character out further!

Anyone that has played a Death Cleric, how did you like it?

[MrFahrenheit]

There's a death cleric in the campaign I run (where I've barred vhumans).

Remember that above all else, you're a cleric first. Subclass is of secondary importance. Assuming 27 point buy, you should start your dex post-racial at 14, then let it lie. Since you have to land a hit first, you can declare touch of death when you do hit (and use a rapier). By mid-game, your spells are far more powerful and useful than relying upon divine strike for your damage output (but remember that divine strike isn't limited to melee like death touch is). Death touch is great, don't get me wrong, but you should only be in melee if you've run out of spell slots or you need to heal a tank.

[NNescio]

There's a death cleric in the campaign I run (where I've barred vhumans).

Remember that above all else, you're a cleric first. Subclass is of secondary importance. Assuming 27 point buy, you should start your dex post-racial at 14, then let it lie. Since you have to land a hit first, you can declare touch of death when you do hit (and use a rapier). By mid-game, your spells are far more powerful and useful than relying upon divine strike for your damage output (but remember that divine strike isn't limited to melee like death touch is). Death touch is great, don't get me wrong, but you should only be in melee if you've run out of spell slots or you need to heal a tank.

Or trying to make use of Spirit Guardians/Bestow Curse/Contagion.

[Corginin]

There's a death cleric in the campaign I run (where I've barred vhumans).

Remember that above all else, you're a cleric first. Subclass is of secondary importance. Assuming 27 point buy, you should start your dex post-racial at 14, then let it lie. Since you have to land a hit first, you can declare touch of death when you do hit (and use a rapier). By mid-game, your spells are far more powerful and useful than relying upon divine strike for your damage output (but remember that divine strike isn't limited to melee like death touch is). Death touch is great, don't get me wrong, but you should only be in melee if you've run out of spell slots or you need to heal a tank.

Good point on the divine strike working at range, didn't think about that. Part of the issue is I will be filling in as partial tank as well as the fighter is dual wielding and I will have more AC than him, so I wanted to make sure I was at least something capable in melee. Staying at range one tactic that might work is to play the part of a caster and then when enemies decide to "kill the softies" they will realize I am not so soft.

If I am reading it correctly, you can Death Touch on spells that require a melee spell attack as well yes? It doesn't include the word weapon if I recall correctly.

[MrFahrenheit]

Good point on the divine strike working at range, didn't think about that. Part of the issue is I will be filling in as partial tank as well as the fighter is dual wielding and I will have more AC than him, so I wanted to make sure I was at least something capable in melee. Staying at range one tactic that might work is to play the part of a caster and then when enemies decide to "kill the softies" they will realize I am not so soft.

If I am reading it correctly, you can Death Touch on spells that require a melee spell attack as well yes? It doesn't include the word weapon if I recall correctly.

The larger issue here is that while DT works with DS, and it appears that you can cast a spell that depends on a melee attack with it (BB/GFB, if you have magic initiate, as an example, or a smite spell, etc etc), once you're out of CDs, you really don't want to stay in the front line. It also doesn't work with something like bestow curse, since you're making a melee SPELL attack in that instance.

Spirit guardians has a range of 15 feet, so break out that longbow and fight from the second line.

Bestow curse/contagion are great, but they're more a run up, tag bad guy, run back kinda deal.

Why do you have a better AC than the fighter? Max you should have is 16-17 with appropriate medium armor, and 18-19 with a shield - which would assume war caster. Fighter should be optimizing dex or str, and choosing armor accordingly (his AC should be 17-18, or 19-20 with a shield, and he wouldn't need a feat to maintain full effectiveness).

[gbg42]

I play a (somewhat modified) Death Cleric in my regular game, and I 100% agree on the 14 dex. You end up note needing any more, but its crucial you start with Wis as high as possible. Once you get to 3rd level spells, Vampiric Touch becomes even better since you can Death Touch through it. If your doing V. Human with standard array, I'd go for something like 8 14 14 10 16 12 after racial modifiers. Warcaster vs Magic Initiate honestly comes down to whether you'd want to spend more time spell attacking or weapon attacking.

Also, have you looked at the Grave Domain from Unearthed Arcana? The domain spells may be more to your liking.

[Biggstick]

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Variant Human Death Cleric.

Human Feat: Spell Sniper (grab BB or GFB). Focus on maxing out Wisdom. You can consider Warcaster at level 8 or 12, depending on if you think you need better opportunity attack options. Utilize a Whip and Shield from behind the Fighter. BB or GFB to your heart's delight in melee, while softening them up with Chill Touch at range.

One of the great things about going this route is that you've done a huge solid in your range capabilities. Spell Sniper extends the range of attack roll based cantrips, of which you as a Death Cleric should have two (BB/GFB and Chill Touch). For BB/GFB, that range extends from 5' to 10'. For Chill Touch, that extends your range from 120' to 240'. Chill Touch also hits two targets as long as they're right next to each other. You're improving your ranged cantrips as well as your melee capabilities (10' of range with melee capabilities, which is even better). On top of that, Spell Sniper removes cover benefits for the enemy, making your 240' range on Chill Touch great against every enemy unless they have full cover. I think this is the best route you could go for.

As for play of a Death Cleric, it's definitely a fun class. The really nice thing about Cleric is that you don't even have to go all the way to level 20 to really enjoy the class. If you decide you want to dip into another class, that's totally fine too! If you're considering multiclass at all, consider 1-3 levels of Rogue. This would grant you a ton of benefits, including the all powerful Cunning Action.

[Corginin]

Why do you have a better AC than the fighter? Max you should have is 16-17 with appropriate medium armor, and 18-19 with a shield - which would assume war caster. Fighter should be optimizing dex or str, and choosing armor accordingly (his AC should be 17-18, or 19-20 with a shield, and he wouldn't need a feat to maintain full effectiveness).


That is a very good question. But it is because I am using a shield and he is not(opted for two weapon fighting), though the difference is only 1 point.

No idea why I didn't think about using a longbow, as long as I couldn't use Reaper it would be more damage before Divine Strike.

Thanks!

[Corginin]

I play a (somewhat modified) Death Cleric in my regular game, and I 100% agree on the 14 dex. You end up note needing any more, but its crucial you start with Wis as high as possible. Once you get to 3rd level spells, Vampiric Touch becomes even better since you can Death Touch through it. If your doing V. Human with standard array, I'd go for something like 8 14 14 10 16 12 after racial modifiers. Warcaster vs Magic Initiate honestly comes down to whether you'd want to spend more time spell attacking or weapon attacking.

Also, have you looked at the Grave Domain from Unearthed Arcana? The domain spells may be more to your liking.

I have looked at the Grave Domain, however we aren't allowed any of the UA material.

And Warcaster vs Magic Initiate is a hard decision because they both have their merits.

[Corginin]

Variant Human Death Cleric.

Human Feat: Spell Sniper (grab BB or GFB). Focus on maxing out Wisdom. You can consider Warcaster at level 8 or 12, depending on if you think you need better opportunity attack options. Utilize a Whip and Shield from behind the Fighter. BB or GFB to your heart's delight in melee, while softening them up with Chill Touch at range.

One of the great things about going this route is that you've done a huge solid in your range capabilities. Spell Sniper extends the range of attack roll based cantrips, of which you as a Death Cleric should have two (BB/GFB and Chill Touch). For BB/GFB, that range extends from 5' to 10'. For Chill Touch, that extends your range from 120' to 240'. Chill Touch also hits two targets as long as they're right next to each other. You're improving your ranged cantrips as well as your melee capabilities (10' of range with melee capabilities, which is even better). On top of that, Spell Sniper removes cover benefits for the enemy, making your 240' range on Chill Touch great against every enemy unless they have full cover. I think this is the best route you could go for.

As for play of a Death Cleric, it's definitely a fun class. The really nice thing about Cleric is that you don't even have to go all the way to level 20 to really enjoy the class. If you decide you want to dip into another class, that's totally fine too! If you're considering multiclass at all, consider 1-3 levels of Rogue. This would grant you a ton of benefits, including the all powerful Cunning Action.

Regardless, the idea of using a whip just sounds like too much fun which is why it was on my list.

Glad to know someone enjoyed it! The Rogue dip does sound like it could be fun and interesting and play up the dexterous nature of my character and fits in the background just fine.

[Syradin]

I have to say that if you are going to be the lead guitar of a band you HAVE to use a Greataxe for your melee weapon, because what guitarist is ever without his Axe.

[Phascogale]

I play a (somewhat modified) Death Cleric in my regular game, and I 100% agree on the 14 dex. You end up note needing any more, but its crucial you start with Wis as high as possible. Once you get to 3rd level spells, Vampiric Touch becomes even better since you can Death Touch through it. If your doing V. Human with standard array, I'd go for something like 8 14 14 10 16 12 after racial modifiers. Warcaster vs Magic Initiate honestly comes down to whether you'd want to spend more time spell attacking or weapon attacking.

Also, have you looked at the Grave Domain from Unearthed Arcana? The domain spells may be more to your liking.

Currently playing an Aasimar Grave domain cleric. I think it works well. I like the whole image of the angelic cleric.

After the battle player on low hitpoint must do penitents to get healing (know themselves to zero hp) so I can use Circle of Mortality to Max the Cure spells. Only the Penitent shall be healed.

[NNescio]

The best vehicle to deliver DT is Spiritual Weapon, which is a melee spell attack despite being able to be summoned at range (up to 60 ft) and moved even farther on subsequent rounds.


The larger issue here is that while DT works with DS, and it appears that you can cast a spell that depends on a melee attack with it (BB/GFB, if you have magic initiate, as an example, or a smite spell, etc etc), once you're out of CDs, you really don't want to stay in the front line. It also doesn't work with something like bestow curse, since you're making a melee SPELL attack in that instance.

DT works with melee spell attacks, since it only specifies "melee attack", not "melee spell attack". DS wouldn't work with spell attacks tough, since it specifies "weapon attack".

Bestow curse wouldn't work with DT, but that's BECAUSE of a completely different reason -- you don't make any attacks at all with it. Instead you touch a target (this is automatic as part of casting the spell if you're within range, no need to roll) and the target has to make a SAVE instead.



Spirit guardians has a range of 15 feet, so break out that longbow and fight from the second line.

Within 15 ft means enemies can run up and whack you. Or run away. Also your Spirit Guardians aren't going to be particularly effective at AoE/Control if only the edge touches your enemies.



Bestow curse/contagion are great, but they're more a run up, tag bad guy, run back kinda deal.

Risking an OA in the process then.


Why do you have a better AC than the fighter? Max you should have is 16-17 with appropriate medium armor, and 18-19 with a shield - which would assume war caster. Fighter should be optimizing dex or str, and choosing armor accordingly (his AC should be 17-18, or 19-20 with a shield, and he wouldn't need a feat to maintain full effectiveness).

Ehh... unless the DM has banned feats, War Caster is almost a given for most Clerics (like Natural Spell for Druids back in 3.5e) except possibly Light (even Arcana wants to mix it in if he has BB/GFB). Extra two AC is too hard to pass up for a priority target such as the Cleric ("shoot the medic first"), and the advantage on concentration saves helps you keep your potent concentration spells going (even an L1 spell like Bless is a potent force multiplier and makes you a priority target) . It also makes your OAs far more deadly, as you can Bestow Curse/Contagion with OAs with it.

Also, while by strict RAW a cleric cannot cast somatic spells with his shield hand (emblazoned with holy symbol) if it doesn't have an inexpensive material component, some DMs would handwave this requirement (due to the ludicrousness of a shield hand only being able to be used for somatic when there's an additional material component, which would imply more effort instead of less). In any case even if the DM does stick to strict RAW here, the Cleric without Warcaster can just sheathe his weapon to cast V/S and S spells instead (giving up potential OAs until his next turn).

The only issue with shields on a Cleric is that it hampers most ranged weapon attacks. This is not an issue at midrange (60 ft for most, 120 ft for Death and Arcana) though since a Cantrip deals comparable damage to to DS + weapon attack anyway (lower at L1-L4, L8-L10 and L14-L17, higher otherwise).

[Dudu]

My opinion on Death Clerics is that they woud certainly benefit greatly from Potent Cantrip. They don't get it. Instead the class features push toward melee, even though you don't get heavy armor proficiency. So you will probably stick to a rapier and try to hit. The channel divinity puts some ok damage, just don't think you will hit as hard as a barbarian with it.

I certainly had more fun with Arcane and Tempest cleric.

Animate Dead is one spell I have a hard time using. But that's more due to the nature of the campaign. We are mercenaries and most of adventuring day happens inside cities walls. Milleage might improve further from civilization. Vampiric Touch is a lame ass spell... for your typical arcane caster. For the death cleric, it might be a superb duelling option. To this day I never used it, though. My concentration knows two spells, Bless, and Spirit Guardians, both avaible for every cleric.

Overall, MrFarenheit is right. Never forget you are a cleric. The party is counting on you. Healing Word, Cure Wounds, Bless and Revivify are still staples, I wouldn't ditch those for "flavor" purposes.

Their capstone would certainly make casting Contagion much more deadly. Overall, I think this is one of the weaker subclasses, stronger than Trickery Domain, but that's it. At least is that how I feel after playtesting. I mean, you won't suck, far from it, afterall, you are a cleric.

My veredict it:
Pick it for flavor but don't sacrifice your most prized cleric roles for the sake of it. And if you want an undead army, play a Necro Wiz instead.

[MrFahrenheit]

The best vehicle to deliver DT is Spiritual Weapon, which is a melee spell attack despite being able to be summoned at range (up to 60 ft) and moved even farther on subsequent rounds.



DT works with melee spell attacks, since it only specifies "melee attack", not "melee spell attack". DS wouldn't work with spell attacks tough, since it specifies "weapon attack".

Have you used this in practice? If this is RAW, I'm surprised we haven't seen more threads regarding palabard builds that take spiritual weapon through magical secrets and then smite+BB/GFB away at what effectively amounts to range.


Bestow curse wouldn't work with DT, but that's BECAUSE of a completely different reason -- you don't make any attacks at all with it. Instead you touch a target (this is automatic as part of casting the spell if you're within range, no need to roll) and the target has to make a SAVE instead.

You're right there. My mistake.


Within 15 ft means enemies can run up and whack you. Or run away. Also your Spirit Guardians aren't going to be particularly effective at AoE/Control if only the edge touches your enemies.

Sure they can run up and attack, and take AoOs from the fighter as well. Fifteen feet is enough distance when you're second lining.

[Corginin]

My veredict it:
Pick it for flavor but don't sacrifice your most prized cleric roles for the sake of it. And if you want an undead army, play a Necro Wiz instead.

No worries there, I wholeheartedly agree with not sacrificing my cleric abilities and don't intend to. The only thing I would be not using at all is Animate Dead unless we can change it up a little so it is less raising the dead and more summoning some kind of spirit that my diety would be ok with.



Have you used this in practice? If this is RAW, I'm surprised we haven't seen more threads regarding palabard builds that take spiritual weapon through magical secrets and then smite+BB/GFB away at what effectively amounts to range.

I think what he is saying is that Touch of Death states 'melee attack' (I had to double check last night when I got home), whereas in your example Divine Smite says 'melee weapon attack'. Looking in the PHB it says under melee attacks that they are typically with a type of weapon but also that a few spells involve them.

I will personally double check with my DM obviously, but I am inclined to believe that the absence of spell/weapon and description of a melee attack in the PHB means that it would work with either.

[Citan]

Greetings!

I finally get to play in a game with access to any of the officially released books and have decided on playing a Death Cleric who follows The Raven Queen (ain't no animating dead up in here). However I am having a bit of trouble deciding on how to build the actual character and looking for some suggestions. Stats are standard array, don't really care one way or another about optimization to the max. Most likely I will see if the DM is ok with switching Animate Dead out for another 3rd level spell such as Speak with Dead or Bestow Curse.

A few ideas I have had so far are:


Dex based V. Human taking Booming Blade via Spell Sniper and wielding a whip/shield.
Dex based V. Human with Warcaster using a rapier/shield (would be the most boring I believe, though great feat)
Dex based V. Human with Magic Initiate for Find Familiar(Raven for the extra flavor) and booming blade.
Str based Half Orc using a flail/shield, would possibly start Fighter 1 for action surge and fighting style or Paladin 2 for smite and fighting style.
Dex based Kenku could also be interesting and fun to roleplay but may be hard to fit in with the backstory, though mimicry could be kinda fun with it also


Getting past that V. Human feat is proving a pain.

Bit of backstory, our party is an up and coming metal band by the name Death Saves (subject to change). We have only played a few gigs together but people like us. My character will be a male playing the lead guitar/backup vocals to our female lead singer whom is a warlock. Also in the band is a fighter, gnome ranger, and our manager is a bard who doesn't play music.
Looking for some suggestions or ideas on how to build this character out further!

Anyone that has played a Death Cleric, how did you like it?
Hi!
Mechanically, your best action will be usually Chill Touch each and every time you have two enemies close-by: unless, of course they resist to necrotic (until level 6 at least) or just immune to it (then no luck, switch tactic).

Why? Because...
- you can attack 2 targets at once (better chance of dealing some damage)
- on hit, those targets have disadvantage against you (so lesser chance to take damage).
- damage is not half-bad, and the range is great.

For other targets you have several options:
Sacred Flame if you are ok with it fluff-wise (it's radiant and "sacred" after all), or maybe ask the DM to modify it as "Unholy Flame" dealing necrotic: it works in melee without disadvantage.

Weapon cantrips are a nice idea but rely on your Dexterity.
If you want a true "melee attack" option, I would rather suggest taking Spellsniper: Druid for Thorns Whip (main): base 30 feet (so 60 feet), gives option to move the target or not, is compatible with your CD and rely on WIS.

If you want to use melee spells often such as Vampiric Touch or Bestow Curse, gaining some additional defense would be recommended, several options.
- Mobile with dual-wielding/Vampiric Touch/Thorns Whip.
- single level dip in Druid for Expeditious Retreat (keeps your concentration though, so the probably worst option here).
- double level in Rogue (Cunning Action)
- three+ levels in Long Death Monk: (decent natural armor, occasional THP -unless it's only weapon attacks, I don't remember-, a few ki points to Dodge or Dash when really needed.
- single level dip in Sorcerer or Wizard for Shield.

Anyways... Your idea of Spell Sniper seems a very good one to me, whatever spell you go with, since it affects many of your domain spells. Should be fun. :)

[NNescio]

Have you used this in practice? If this is RAW, I'm surprised we haven't seen more threads regarding palabard builds that take spiritual weapon through magical secrets and then smite+BB/GFB away at what effectively amounts to range..

Divine Smite specifies "melee weapon attack", so it's invalid for Spiritual Weapon.

BB/GFB are spells, and they both require an action to cast. As part of the same action you make a "melee attack with a weapon". You get the melee attack as part of the BB/GFB, not the other way around. You cannot just freely substitute melee attacks, weapon or otherwise, with BB/GFB. This can get OP real fast with Extra Attack and Haste.

(This is a frequent mistake I see in my games too, from both sides of the DM screen.)

[MrFahrenheit]

Well I stand corrected then...spiritual weapon: yes for DT, no for DS.

[Dudu]

Divine Smite specifies "melee weapon attack", so it's invalid for Spiritual Weapon.

BB/GFB are spells, and they both require an action to cast. As part of the same action you make a "melee attack with a weapon". You get the melee attack as part of the BB/GFB, not the other way around. You cannot just freely substitute melee attacks, weapon or otherwise, with BB/GFB. This can get OP real fast with Extra Attack and Haste.

(This is a frequent mistake I see in my games too, from both sides of the DM screen.)
^Exactly.

By the way, to those reading, don't mistake Divine Smite, a paladin's feature, with cleric's Divine Strike. Divine Strike can be made with ranged weapons, but still carries the same "weapon" description. Same way, you cannot score Divine Strike with Spiritual Weapon, but you can with a bow (might be a good option for Deathcleric, but most of the time, Chill Touch is superior).


Hi!
Mechanically, your best action will be usually Chill Touch each and every time you have two enemies close-by: unless, of course they resist to necrotic (until level 6 at least) or just immune to it (then no luck, switch tactic).

Why? Because...
- you can attack 2 targets at once (better chance of dealing some damage)
- on hit, those targets have disadvantage against you (so lesser chance to take damage).
- damage is not half-bad, and the range is great.

Not really. You don't grant disadvantage against you unless the enemy in question is an undead.

Otherwise, Chill Touch's rider effect is that it forbids healing for one turn. Not a superb rider effect, but the damage is ok, and is necrotic which, for you, bypass necrotic resist once you get to lvl 6.

My experience playing the death cleric is: Those bonus from subclass are frivolities, the cleric can do, yes, quite a lot of damage, but that damage hails from your spells. At will options are lackluster, and should be, so actual martial characters won't lag behind you. In a lot of fights the action I used the most was... dodge. It might seem I was useless, but I was probably (biased opinion, I know) the MVP of the fights. The constant Spirit Guardians flaying every enemy (and slowing them) coupled with a Spiritual Weapon hitting targets was more than enough damage. Spiritual Weapon requires a bonus action, though, witch would occasionally be used as Healing Word. Actions could be replaced by Cure Wounds or other remediative action, but such decision wasn't needed. You could also use Action to Help an Ally hit someone else.

Notice how the strategy I mentioned above is:
1. Very action economy friendly. Spirit Guardians cost one action and lasts the whole fight if you make hitting you a hard task (and disrupting your concentration a hard task as well). The Spiritual Weapon attacks use bonus action.

2. The efficiency is conditional. We were surrounded by mooks. If it's few big, dangerous enemies, Bless might be better. Against mind affecting enemies Beacon of Hope might be better.

3. It's on every clerics arsenal. So you can a cleric of whatever, as long as you do your job both in field (good positioning coupled with some Dodges) and your job building your character (Resilient Con helps wonders, and Warcaster helps even more, you want to keep that concentration up).

Death Cleric's Chill Touch deserves a mention as an important tool to hit a key target. You forbid that target to heal for one turn, which ensures killing for your party members. It's not broken good, but it's handy.