*New Player* Paladin(Ancient)/Warlock(Archfey) Tank/Smite Battery 5e

[Blind_Prophet]

Hey guys, just trying out 5e (and writing this for the second time because my computer hates me :P, sadly means due to time constraints I'll have to paraphrase alot more.) and I'm frustrated/confused by some new rules and could use some help with my build


Build Concept: Simple Farmer or something similar (gatherer?) from a remote village who manages to save the nearby forest which he's loved since a child from an attack of some sort and because reasons (currently discussing with friends) Emmantiensien empowers/recruits my character as a Paladin to protect the balance between civilization and nature (Emerald Faction of course)

This is where canonically I get all my starting equipment (fluff wise it's made of of wood,leaves, vines,etc., mechanically it's an Arcane Foci which I wield as a Q-staff, Chain Mail armor worn below my robes and a shield w/ Emm's Holy Symbol) and by a fun suggestion (our group always discusses and builds character concepts together, even if it's for Society, Encounters or Adventurer League where Roleplay is a bit ignored in my experience) I'm given a mysterious book with a Bark cover and leaves for pages, binded/sealed by vines (or other artifact) written in Sylvan, I am to translate/study it to gain further favor/power from Emm'. (basically how I start gaining Lock levels)

Originally I thought Wizard but thier Int based and Sorcs use their magics innately so after some thought/discussion it was decided that Archfey Warlock fit pretty well (fluff wise mechanically some of the archfey abilities are almost counter intuitive to a tank)

Oh and this is my WIP progress "motto" type thing...trust me I know it's kind of lame at the moment "Despite the fact that I'm Quick to a joke and slow to raise my weapon you would be wise not to judge me by my appearance for you shall be judged and if you are deemed a threat my blows hit the with weight of the forest and nature itself"


Issues:

1. Extremely limited amount of feats at only 5 (3rd = 7, PF = 10) exasperated by the fact that you have to sacrifice your stat boosts for them and you max starting stat is 16 (technically 17 with the right race but its a waste since stat increases are +2 and max is 20)

2. Said feats come at every 4 CLASS levels not character meaning all multi-classes pretty much NEED to be multiples of 4 per class (iow Pally 5/Lock3 would only get one feat when Pally8 would get 2 despite both being Lvl 8, or in my case I need to go Lock12/Paladin8 instead of 13/7 or maybe 12/7/1 depending on how the story goes) this forces me to plan ahead alot more instead of just going with the flow of the story (ie. when i get time to read the book)

3. Arbitrary stat requirements for multi-classing...original character was an old man, with only average str, dex and int (8 is average right?) but very wise and charismatic using the spell shillelagh but that stat requirement basically killed this forcing me to crank Str and dump Wisdom. It even forced me to go Half-elf instead of human since I would of had to reduce Charisma as well (the extra +1 cha and +1 to two other stats fixed that) I lose the "mundane" race (which i almost never play since im always a human the rest of my life) but gain "fey ancestry" which could explain my fascination with the forest


Anyways here's my build as it stands currently (open to suggestion...just remember focus is Tanking, improving my allies and fueling that smite for a punishing OA. (Lock is mainly for regenerating spell slots for smite usage/spell level mechanically)

Goal: Tank w/ Punishing OAs through Smites and EB+Warcaster.
Background: Folk Hero? Hermit?
Stats: Str 13/Dex 10/Con 16/Int 8/Wis 10/Cha 16
Race: Half-elf

1 Pally 1: Fairly weak level, only level actually reliant on Str for attack (no eldritch blast or shillelagh)
2 Lock 1: Gain eldritch blast, if human I'd have chosen War Caster so I could apply EB to my OAs
3 Pally 2: Smites mainly, would have done this at Char Lvl 2 but I'd be unlikely to hit anything anyways
4 Lock 2: Gain Up to 2 spells (aka smites) an encounter but irrelevant until
5 Lock 3: Gain my Tome for Shillelagh and other cantrips (thinking Booming Blade and/or Green-Flame Blade but still looking)
6 Lock 4: Feat Mainly: Warcaster if I'm reading the rules for Arcane Foci wrong, if I'm reading them right I'd likely bump up Sentinel/PoleArm
7 Pally 3: Pretty weak level again, disease immunity is nice but unless they upped it's danger in this edition, rarely used. Chose Ancient Oath
8 Pally 4: Again Just for Feat: Choose Sentinel if Warcaster was chosen otherwise likely Polearm here and Sentinel at Lvl 6
9+ Not sure, Lock increase the power of smite but paladin gains two powerful auras at 6&7 not to mention the extra attack @ 5 for doubling up on smites.


Remaining Feats/ASI: Next Either Warcaster or Polemaster if not chosen yet, after that Shield Master and likely +2 Cha

Possible Invocations: Ancient Secrets (Not sure how rituals work, but gotta be some good ones and its tome specific), Angonizing Blast (My cha is high, cha to damage is good), Beast Speech (Mainly for fluff reasons, wish it included plants too), Eldritch Spear (EB is my only ranged attack may as well improve it), Repelling Blast (Ranged control helps wen I can't be there directly)

Anyways thanks in advance for reading through this and for any help you offer...oh one more note Adventure Leagues rules state that I can only use the PHB and one other "non-playtest" book of my choice (ie. the M:TG Zenikar and Unearth Arcana books are considered playtest material)

Oh and here's an image to represent my general visual idea of the character (remember the armor is UNDER the robes, trick some enemies into thinking im a squishy caster)...not sure what I'm doing appearance-wise with the 13 Str, tempted to just ignore it. Show my 13 for arbitrary requirement that act like it's an 8 fluff wise.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/6d/8a/23/6d8a23397632d2712c814cf3bb4fcaca.jpg

[Steampunkette]

Since you're clearly being empowered by a forest lord as a defender, why not drop Archfey for Hexblade and refluff it as Emm empowering you explicitly as a warrior?

Then you can drop Strength and Dex a bit in favor of Charisma and Constitution, grab pact of the tome and pick up Shape Wind and Earth from Elemental Evil (For their tactical and noncombat uses) along with Thorn Whip. For the base Warlock cantrips go EB and GFB. If you get a third, take Booming Blade.

Thorn Whip is, technically, a melee spell attack, so if someone provokes and you have Warcaster you can drag them back to where you are to eat up their movement. It's not -as- good as Sentinel for stickiness, but it also allows you to reshape the battlefield on the fly.

When and if you get BB that makes a better sticky.

Gives you a more useful pact ability, in the Curse, which improves your chance of crit-smiting.

[gfishfunk]

I'll reply longer later, but...

Shellaigh out of the Tome pact will end up using charisma and not wisdom. That is good for the build.

Average stats are 10, not 8. 8 implies deficiency, which can be good for some RP.

You don't want to go every other or nearly. Hitting level 5 with paladin meets you extra attack. You will feel not having it off you push that back too far.

[Blind_Prophet]

Since you're clearly being empowered by a forest lord as a defender, why not drop Archfey for Hexblade and refluff it as Emm empowering you explicitly as a warrior?

Hexblade? I've only seen Archfey, Fiend and Old one...book/page?

or do you mean the pactblade? it's cool and easily fluffed as vines and thorns that writhe and reshape at my will but than I'd need to switch to Str or Dex focused which would kill the "Old Wise Man" concept since I'd lose Cha-based Shillelagh and sadly the shifting blade concept is kinda of nullified by being limited to a Q-staff or club even if I could find another way to get that cantrip.



Then you can drop Strength and Dex a bit in favor of Charisma and Constitution

I don't think I can use Shillelagh on my shifting pact blade...also I'd love to drop Str...I originally had it at 8 but Multi-classing as a Paladin inexplicably requires 13 Str. Is there a way around this?

Side-query: Does having an 8 dexterity give me -1 AC (im wearing chainmail and later plate if it matters)



grab pact of the tome and pick up Shape Wind and Earth from Elemental Evil (For their tactical and noncombat uses) along with Thorn Whip. For the base Warlock cantrips go EB and GFB. If you get a third, take Booming Blade.

Thorn Whip is, technically, a melee spell attack, so if someone provokes and you have Warcaster you can drag them back to where you are to eat up their movement. It's not -as- good as Sentinel for stickiness, but it also allows you to reshape the battlefield on the fly.

Thorn Whip sounds cool, can't complain about more Battlefield Control , thanks :D I'll also look into SWE at the very least it sounds like it fits my fluff.


Side-note: Love the avatar/forum name...huge steampunk fan...curretly playing a Gnome tinker in pathfinder that has managed to become a sort of steampunk ironman w/ a roving medical bot.


I'll reply longer later

More is always appreciated but thanks for the fast reply :D



Shellaigh out of the Tome pact will end up using charisma and not wisdom. That is good for the build.

I was originally going to use Magic initiate (or w/e it's called) but only the pact of the tome (and a Bard ability) seems to use Charisma so that's why I used the tome pact instead of chain or blade. Wisdom was mostly a flavour choice although it helps my survival and insight checks the former being flavorful and the latter pairing well with diplomacy which pairs well with my Neutral Good Alignment/Violence as a last resort but NOT a pacifist personality.



Average stats are 10, not 8. 8 implies deficiency, which can be good for some RP.


Even better TBH, I wanted him to have a deficit in at least Str if not Dex...I might bump int up to 10 by swapping it with dex though...he's not stupid just...average.



You don't want to go every other or nearly. Hitting level 5 with paladin meets you extra attack. You will feel not having it off you push that back too far.

It's not ideal but until my first level of Lock I'm useless due to my low str...even more so if there's a way to dump it to 8. From there's it's what is need first Warcaster is needed ASAP and so is smite, than locks needs a few levels to empower smite and get pact of the tome for the shillelagh cantrip amongst others, open to suggestion on an order that doesn't make me useless for the first few levels though (otherwise at the VERY least P/W/W/W is pretty set.

[Millstone85]

Hexblade? I've only seen Archfey, Fiend and Old one...book/page?It is from Unearthed Arcana, which is a series of test material on the official website.

Not the first thing I would mention to a new player. :smallconfused:

There is one more patron that has been released in a proper book: the Undying, in Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide. But it is not thematically appropriate for your character, and probably not so great mechanically either.

[gfishfunk]

My last message was garbled due to posting via phone. Let's try again. Edit: your reply came in while typing this up.

1. Feats for your build really just adds options. You already have lots of options, so you can just focus on grabbing stats and never feel it, perhaps with the exception of war caster. A lot of pally spells are verbal only, so you could get by even without that.

2. Don't worry too much about total progression. Just worry about 1 through 6 with a vague idea of where to go. Builds rarely survive actual play. And generally turns into a feel it out progression that a clinical construction.

3. Variant human is only better than other races for levels 1-3. (IMO) and only better if you are feat dependent. You look like you won't be, so Half Elf or whatever would be just fine. I would pump STR (or Dex) to 14 and ease back Con to 14 as well. 13 is not great, and you need to make your attacks stick.

4. I would go pally 1-3, warlock 1 somewhere in there, then pally +3, resulting in warlock 1, pally 6. This gives you the best paladin features and reusable smites on warlock slots. Pally 6 gives you the best paladin feature, giving an amazing save aura. This can't be overstated.

If you want a lot more warlock early, go paladin 2 then warlock 5 with pact weapon and invocation for extra attack. You need two attacks for a melee class. If you go cantrips with the Tome pact, and use booming blade, it is less optimal because it doesn't stack with extra attacks. Your decision.

[gfishfunk]

Also note, paladins benefit nearly the least form shellaigh due to smites. You already can deal d8 damage, as a melee class, your STR or Dex is good for armor class so you are hitting well, and many paladin features give you an ability to overcome resistances so having a magic weapon is less necessary.

Do remember that is you drop strength, you won't be able to function in most heavy armor.

[Blind_Prophet]

It is from Unearthed Arcana, which is a series of test material on the official website.

Not the first thing I would mention to a new player. :smallconfused:

Ah, UA don't think that's a valid bool for the Adventurer's League



There is one more patron that has been released in a proper book: the Undying, in Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide. But it is not thematically appropriate for your character, and probably not so great mechanically either.

I assume it's undead related, sounds "unnatural" not good for me...good opponent for me though. :D




1. Feats for your build really just adds options.

That is true but w/o them I won't be doing much tanking...the control is to supplement the control not the primary. Unless I'm missing something...does Paladin have any 4e-esque tank abilities.



A lot of pally spells are verbal only, so you could get by even without that.


Unfortunately Eldritch blast does have a somantic component so I can't even use my shield without war caster unless I can use my q-staff as an arcane Focus, also CMIIW but with Warcaster I can apply my Eldrtch Blast (or other spell) to my OA so it would be Q-Staff(1d8)+Polearm Master(1d8)+Eldritch Blast(1d10)+Sentinel(stop movement)



2. Don't worry too much about total progression. Just worry about 1 through 6 with a vague idea of where to go. Builds rarely survive actual play. And generally turns into a feel it out progression that a clinical construction.


I normally don't but the 4/4/4/4 of feat's makes it very hard to level "fluidly"



3. Variant human is only better than other races for levels 1-3. (IMO) and only better if you are feat dependent. You look like you won't be, so Half Elf or whatever would be just fine. I would pump STR (or Dex) to 14 and ease back Con to 14 as well. 13 is not great, and you need to make your attacks stick.

Shillelagh makes my q-staff attack use Cha for atk and damage & my eldritch blast is cha based as well i don't need Str



4. I would go pally 1-3, warlock 1 somewhere in there, then pally +3, resulting in warlock 1, pally 6. This gives you the best paladin features and reusable smites on warlock slots. Pally 6 gives you the best paladin feature, giving an amazing save aura. This can't be overstated.


Agreed without the Aura I'd take Paladin 2 and be down with it, but Warlock 1 doesn't grant me my tome, nor my invocations (ie. Agonizing blast or repelling blast)


Also note, paladins benefit nearly the least form shellaigh due to smites. You already can deal d8 damage

Only with 2-hands, shillelagh loses no die step and gives room for a shield (post War-caster), plus it being powered by nature is flavorful


as a melee class, your STR or Dex is good for armor class so you are hitting well

Shillelagh replaces Str w/ Cha for Atk/dmg...how does Str help my AC (serious question did I miss something)



and many paladin features give you an ability to overcome resistances so having a magic weapon is less necessary.

Agreed, Shillelagh is mostly for the Cha to Atk/dmg and the flavour, not to mention being able to hold it one handed without lowering the damage die.

[gfishfunk]

Most heavy armor has minimum strength requirements.

[gfishfunk]

Stats options without racial modifiers from a point-buy perspective:

Str: 8
Dex: 14
Con: 14
Wis: 10
Int: 10
Cha: 16

This enables you to go medium armor with your +2 Dex and no Str requirement (15 from armor, +2 Dex, +2 shield = 19). You can go one less point of Con and one more point of Dex (or vice versa), and then add in your human racial bonuses for a Dex 16 / Con 14 (or vice versa). Of you can swap Str and Dex. Your choice.

Shelleighlah only really matters if you are committed to a quaterstaff (based on what you said earlier). You can easily use a mace, call it a wooden mallet, and reflavor it with your Pact Weapon feature (if you do that instead of Tome) and have it work thematically. Alternatively, you can go shelleighlah and quarterstaff. If you do have Shelleighlah, it won't stack with booming blade (not to my knowledge, though I could be wrong).

Glancing at the Heavy Armor stuff, you need a Str 15 to wear the two best, and a Str 13 to wear something decent.

[Blind_Prophet]

Most heavy armor has minimum strength requirements.

Oh, well the throws a monkey wrench in the system, which ones don't...or rather where does it say that I'm going to check under equipment to see but is it magic item specific or something..is there a chart? (aside from the "armor" chart of course, checking that shortly)


Stats options without racial modifiers from a point-buy perspective:

Str: 8
Dex: 14
Con: 14
Wis: 10
Int: 10
Cha: 16

This enables you to go medium armor with your +2 Dex and no Str requirement (15 from armor, +2 Dex, +2 shield = 19). You can go one less point of Con and one more point of Dex (or vice versa), and then add in your human racial bonuses for a Dex 16 / Con 14 (or vice versa). Of you can swap Str and Dex. Your choice.

Shillelaghs only really matters if you are committed to a quarterstaff (based on what you said earlier). You can easily use a mace, call it a wooden mallet, and reflavor it with your Pact Weapon feature (if you do that instead of Tome) and have it work thematically. Alternatively, you can go shelleighlah and quarterstaff. If you do have Shelleighlah, it won't stack with booming blade (not to my knowledge, though I could be wrong).

Glancing at the Heavy Armor stuff, you need a Str 15 to wear the two best, and a Str 13 to wear something decent.

If this was a home game we'd easily say the pact blade was just writhing vines and I wasn't limited to q-staff under shillelagh (since their all wood)...maybe limit it to bludgeoning and piercing, I dunno? (doesn't really matter :P) but unfortunately it's a "Adventurer League"

Speaking of "house rules" we would also remove the arbitrary Stat requirements on multi-classing (the "feat" system would be a larger discussion) but I haven't seen a RAW way around it? Is there one? or is AL not to strict?

That said Medium armor is a fair compromise :D

[Blind_Prophet]

Wow the str requirement is right in the armor chart, can't believe I missed that :smalltongue:

[Blind_Prophet]

I did some thinking/calculations and I was wondering how easy getting a +2 Magic item is in 5e, last I heard magic items were going to be super special & rare in "DnD Next" so not sure if that's changed since the beta testing phase.

Assuming there's no way around the "13 Str Multi-classing requirement" for Paladins Chain mail requires 13 Str (which I'm forced to have anyways) than plate armor is only a 15 req. so if I can get +2 Str Magic item I'm golden.

If there IS someway around the "13 Str Multi-classing requirement" for Paladins I'd dump Str & heavy armor than wear medium armor and bump Dex up a bit to compensate (so Half-Elf = Str 8/Dex14/Con14/Int10/Wis14/Cha16, Human = Str 9/Dex 14/Con 14/Int12/Wis14/Cha16, Variant Human w/ Res Con Feat = Str 8/Dex14/Con14/Int8/Wis14/Cha16) Half-Elf vs. V-Human is pretty much 10 Int vs. 8 Int w/ Prof in Con Saves. I think the latter wins out mechanically and fluff wise is more "mundane" which works for me (normally I prefer the exotic races but "humble beginnings" is important to this character)

Finally assuming getting a +2 Dex item is no biggie AND there's a way around the multi-classing req than 14 dex is not required since max dex bonus for medium is 2 thus be able to increase Con (so Half-Elf = Str 8/Dex12/Con16/Int10/Wis14/Cha16, Human = Str 9/Dex 12/Con 16/Int 10/Wis14/Cha16, Variant Human w/ Res Con Feat = Str 8/Dex12/Con16/Int8/Wis14/Cha16) Stat wise technically Reg Human beats Half-Elves by +1 Str so it's shifted to Human vs. Variant Human but still 10 int vs Con Save Proficiency. (Since the +1 Str is mostly irrelevant)

Side-note: I won't necessarily take Resilient (Con) at Lvl 1 might swap it with Sentinel but either way I get that +1 Con/Con Save Prof that I wouldn't get from a Normal human or Half-Elf.

Side-note2: A friend pointed out to me that "retraining" rules exist for Adventurer's League and since I'm new to 5e I don't want to make a bad impression by being "dead weight" for a level so It's best to suck it up and increase my Str for at least level 1 than "retrain" at Level 2 (Lock 1) to my "fluff friendly" stats, this would also give me a chance to talk to the AL coordinators about my plans and see if they'll allow some leeway on the Multi-classing Stat reqs.

Sidenote3: I also noted that whilst heavy armor grants no Dex Bonus it also ignores any Dex penalty to your AC.

[Isaire]

Assuming there's no way around the "13 Str Multi-classing requirement" for Paladins Chain mail requires 13 Str (which I'm forced to have anyways) than plate armor is only a 15 req. so if I can get +2 Str Magic item I'm golden.

Finally assuming getting a +2 Dex item is no biggie AND there's a way around the multi-classing req than 14 dex is not required since max dex bonus for medium is 2 thus be able to increase Con (so Half-Elf = Str 8/Dex12/Con16/Int10/Wis14/Cha16, Human = Str 9/Dex 12/Con 16/Int 10/Wis14/Cha16, Variant Human w/ Res Con Feat = Str 8/Dex12/Con16/Int8/Wis14/Cha16) Stat wise technically Reg Human beats Half-Elves by +1 Str so it's shifted to Human vs. Variant Human but still 10 int vs Con Save Proficiency. (Since the +1 Str is mostly irrelevant)

Expecting items to boost your stats by +2 is highly highly optimistic. However, there is a more common item (gauntlets of ogre strength) that set your strength to 19. Can you rely on finding those for a build? Not sure. Not sure I'd recommend it for a first character.. At least the only penalty for missing the strength requirement is reduced movement speed :P

[Blind_Prophet]

Expecting items to boost your stats by +2 is highly highly optimistic. However, there is a more common item (gauntlets of ogre strength) that set your strength to 19. Can you rely on finding those for a build? Not sure. Not sure I'd recommend it for a first character.. At least the only penalty for missing the strength requirement is reduced movement speed :P

Ok so magic items are extremely rare (unlike 3rd edition) noted thanks :D

[gfishfunk]

Go with the following stats:

STR 15 (+1) = 16
Dex 8
Con 13
Wis 10
Int 10
Cha 15 (+1) = 16

Grab the feat Resilience at level 1 for Con saves and+1 Con. You would have to wait on War Caster, or vice versa.

I am now thinking that you are trying to do too much with your character and have too high of expectations. Your character is going to have a weakness. I see no reason for high wisdom in the build mechanically.

You CAN go pure Cha / Con without being a Paladin. You would be pure Warlock build though. Were I three DM, I would worry that your were trying to homebrew for munchkin purposes.

[gfishfunk]

Alternative stats (chewing over this some more)

Half Elf:
Str: 15 (+1) = 16
Dex 8
Con 15 (+1) = 16
Wis: 10
Int: 10
Cha: 14 (+2) = 16

You get Warcaster at level 4.

Alternative - Alternative:
Str: 14
Dex: 8
Con: 15 (+1) = 16
Wis: 10
Int: 10
Cha: 15 (+1) = 16

V Human feat: War Caster. At level 4, gain +2 Str. You likely will not have too much access to higher armor until level 5-6 anyway (I'm guessing. I really don't know the modules).

[Blind_Prophet]

Wis is pure fluff so I guess I could drop it to 10, I was just trying a mind over matter type thing, just a Tank with a punishing OA.

BTW a Tank to me isn't just tough, that just gets you ignored, you need to have ways to stop people from just walking past you (ie. Sentienel) and your OA needs to matter enough to discourage an enemy fomr risking it.

[Galadhrim]

As noted above you can still wear the heavy armor with a lower str, you just get a movement restriction. You probably won't be able to carry a whole lot but that shouldn't be too much of a problem since that seems to fit the character concept anyway.

[Blind_Prophet]

As noted above you can still wear the heavy armor with a lower str, you just get a movement restriction. You probably won't be able to carry a whole lot but that shouldn't be too much of a problem since that seems to fit the character concept anyway.

Hmmm...inhibited movement to portray an older combatant...sounds like a possible plan :D

[Blind_Prophet]

Considering dropping this idea and making a Firbolg Moon Druid instead, basically shift the "village" to the forest. a Small clan of Firbolgs that get attacked by loggers/poachers, the firbolgs try to defend theirselves but being that they have had no use for weapons and lived in quiet peace several are quickly dispatched despite their size, it's not until the forest guardian Emmantiensien slowly roses from his slumber that the invaders are scared off, shortly after "Jak" (temp name) as the wisest amongst the remianing members of the clan is tasked with finding out what happened as the neighbouring kingdom has long revered Emmantiensien and the forest where he resides, imparted with a small amount of Emm's powers "Jak" set's off to do just that.

Barely started but general idea is this: Moon Circle for wildshape focus, extra HP used to tank if necessary otherwise can always heal, beyond that wild shape gives me a wide array of options depending on the party's need (since the players are different most weeks, being an Adventurer's league and all) Note: The Monk1 level is to represent his time in the forest being all Zen and stuff. The Dex & Con are in case I run out of Wildshapes.

Firbolg Druid18/Monk1?


Str 9
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 17
Cha 10


1. Monk1 - AC = 10 + Dex + Wis
2. Druid1 - Druid Spellcasting
3. Druid2 - Wildshape, Moon Circle
4+ Druid - Observent (+1 wis-> 18 Wis, read animals)


4 Observant (+1 Wis)
8 Sentinel
12 +2 Wisdom (when am i expected to have 20 Wis by?)
16 Charger?