Small Tweaks for a Better Game: Mundane Antimagic

[Grod_The_Giant]

We all know that magic trumps nonmagic in 3.5. A big part of that, once you move beyond the battlefield, is that magic is really hard to stop without using more magic-- and more powerful magic. I mean, it only takes a 4th level spell to teleport soldiers into a castle, but an eighth level spell to stop that? And one that needs to be renewed every two weeks or so? Bah. The thing is, that's not the case for a lot of fiction. So, as one Small Tweak for a Better Game (the first of many, perhaps?), I propose some houserules to allow purely mundane characters to deal with magic just a little bit better.

Salt: Salt is anathema to unearthly creatures. A line of salt functions similarly to a Magic Circle Against Evil. Outsiders, undead, and summoned creatures cannot cross or disturb a line of salt, provided the line is at least one inch thick. More specficially, they can't touch or manipulate the salt with their own power, whether by mundane tools, physical limbs, or esoteric powers. Indirect means relying on other agents or uncontrolled phenomena - such as the wind that happens to blow through an open window - can still be 'aided' in disrupting a salt line. If such creatures touch more than an ounce or so of salt, they suffer 1d6 damage. A pound of salt costs 5 gold, and can be use do draw a total of fifty feet of salt line. Laying down an unbroken line of salt takes time, however-- one full round action per five foot segment, which provokes attacks of opportunity. [Earth] creatures are unaffected.
Some credit to Sergev for wording

Witch's Bath: Water is the element of purity, particularly when blessed. Submerging a creature or object in holy or unholy water for a full round has the ability to wash away magic, as though a targeted Greater Dispel Magic had been cast, with a caster level of 5. Alternately, if the bath is being administered by another character, the caster level is equal to their ranks in Knowledge (Religion) or Spellcraft. The (un)holy water does not need to be pure; one 25 gold flask is sufficient to bless a small barrel of water. Using holy water leaves [Good] spells unaffected and confers a +5 bonus on the check against [Evil] spells, while the opposite is true for unholy water. If an ongoing spell or effect survives one witch's bath, it cannot be affected by another.
Credit to Sergev

Moly Candle: A candle made from the moly plant burns blue in the presence of magic. Whenever a new aura (see Detect Magic for details) comes within 100 feet of a moly candle, the flame jumps, sparks, and turns a brilliant blue color. It does not return to its original color until all magic is removed from its range, but it continues to spark when new auras enter its presence.

Running Water: Water is the element of purity. Natural (ie, non-conjured) running water, be it rain, a river, or even a shower, acts to disrupt and dispel ongoing magic. Immersion in running water produces the effects of a targeted Dispel Magic spell. If only partially immersed (between ~25 and 75% of your body), the dispel check is made with a +5 bonus, and occurs at the end of the first full round of exposure, and then once per minute afterwards. Casting a spell while partially immersed has a 25% failure chance. If fully immersed, the dispel check is made with a +10 bonus and occurs at the end of the first full round of exposure, and then once per round afterwards. Casting a spell while fully immersed has a 50% failure chance. A rainstorm counts as partial exposure, unless protected by a good cloak or umbrella. The 25% failure chance affects spells cast through a rainstorm, even if the caster is dry. Spells with the [Water] descriptor, spell-like abilities used by [Water] creatures, and the Water Breathing spell are not affected.

Silver: Silver is a magically inert material. Even a thin layer of silver blocks teleportation and divination magic altogether. An area fully enclosed by silver (approximately; it doesn't need to be airtight, but no windows or large cracks) is treated as a solid object for the purposes for teleporting into or out of it, though once inside one could teleport around the interior. Silver also extends into the ethereal plane, affecting incorporeal creatures as though they were solid-- a ghost cannot walk through a silver wall, and can be affected by a silver blade. A pound of silver costs 5 gold and can be used to cover 10 square feet of surface. Armor may be lined with silver to provide a bonus on saves against spells and spell-like abilities, granting a +1 bonus to saves against spells and spell-like abilities for 500 gold.
Note: You can use any special material you want; I mostly like silver because I read the Bartimaeus trilogy at a formative age

What do people think?

[inuyasha]

I love these ideas, and I've considered something similar with salt and silver before, but never running water

My only real questions are these:

1. Does saltwater have any special effect

2. How would you react if one of your players filled large water balloons with saltwater and silver coins, and then bombed magic-heavy cities with them?

[Zanos]

Counters to spells often come online before the spells themselves, and in may cases are absolute. Protection from Evil is level 1 and can ward against much higher level spells, nondetection is 3rd and scrying doesn't come online until 4th, Dimensional Lock is 8th, sure, but Forbiddance is 6th and is also naturally permanent. Mage's private sanctum is 5th and blocks divination completely. Also, I assume you're referring to dimension door as an example...but using a 7th level spellcaster to bring two soldiers into a castle is probably not a good use of any of those resources.

Individual effects:

Under these rules, a pretty paltry amount of salt can render very powerful creatures as a non-threat as early as level 1, many of which are encounter staples. Clearing out the family crypt of zombies just became a heck of a lot easier. OTOH minions actively lead by a spellcaster have little to worry about as the spellcaster can either direct them to indirectly remove the salt, or just do it himself.

The running water rules are a little unclear. Does rain count as partial immersion? I can see ponchos(or travel cloaks which explicitly keep you completely dry) as very popular equipment among low level spellcasters. Full immersion doesn't happen often in my experience, PCs are often loathe to actually go swimming since it puts them at a massive disadvantage against creatures with actual swim speeds. They're even more loathe to do it if it's gonna dispel their buffs.

The silver rules for warding locations are fine but honestly probably too cheap, any location of any import that isn't dirt cheap is going to be warded for a trivial cost, making those abilities essentially worthless. Armor giving bonuses against spells is a little cheap for it's effect too, but medium/heavy armor are quite bad otherwise so that's probably fine. Getting total immunity to mind affecting spells for 250gp is pretty ridiculous though, isn't that school hamstringed enough?

[Psyren]

I mean, it only takes a 4th level spell to teleport soldiers into a castle, but an eighth level spell to stop that?

Actually, it takes a 7th-level spell, unless you either (a) know the castle like the back of your hand, in which case it's probably yours anyway, or (b) want those soldiers to be in the walls, privy, or 100 miles distant.

I'm not just posting this to be contrary though - my larger point is that a lot of these campaign-bruising spells have limitations built in that GMs are expected to use, even if few on this forum do. Teleport not only has a chance of failure, it has the all important energy clause that opens the floodgates to any number of discouragements. Bargaining with called creatures has the "unreasonable commands" and "subversion" clauses. Simulacrum has the "appropriate abilities" clause. And so on.

High-level spells do get around some of this stuff, but lets be honest - I wouldn't want salt or silver beating something like Gate either. At some point, magic should win.

Also, I definitely think the idea of being able to dispel with water balloons or a hose is iffy at best.

[Dagroth]

Also, I definitely think the idea of being able to dispel with water balloons or a hose is iffy at best.

It does turn a Decanter of Endless Water into a powerful tool at lower levels though. :smallbiggrin:

I also don't like Silver being the anti-magic material, considering you need Silver (and sometimes Magic + Silver) weapons to overcome many creature types' DR.

Inventing a new material, like Orihalcum, works better. Just be sure to remind PCs who want Orihalcum weapons/armor... it can't be enchanted.

[PacMan2247]

I like these ideas as a general thing, though I'm inclined to agree with Zanos on the armor bit- if nothing else, only the heaviest of armors actually encases a character; anything less than that and there are an awful lot of vulnerabilities for the magic to exploit. Silver is also much softer than metals that are generally used for armor, so if you were going to allow for a save bonus, a penalty to the armor bonus seems appropriate (and let's face it, at higher levels, AC just doesn't keep up well against the attacks coming in anyway). I kinda like the idea of someone using a salt variant on dwarven stone armor to ward against incorporeal attacks and possession.

There are traditions in almost every culture dealing with this sort of mundane ward against the supernatural, and I like the idea of incorporating that sort of thing. Most of the time, knowledge of that sort of thing was the purview of sages, wise women, and the like- would it be appropriate to make these expanded uses of different skills? Heck, all the purported powers of different crystals could give people other than Crystal Masters reason to take Knowledge: gemology.

[Zancloufer]

Well this does essentially shut down any buffs, undead, outsiders or mind effecting spells SUPER FREAKING CHEAP.

1 SP per foot to make a line that instantly shuts down all summoning and calling spells, not to mention undead and any outsider that can plane-shift?!?

Decanter of Endless water is now discount mage's disjunction at will!

250 GP to be immune to most enchantment and illusion magic?!? +750GP on your armour gives you +3 (seemingly untyped) bonus to spells!

Your masterwork Silver Full Plate would probably cost ~2k GP and grant +3 saves vs all magic. Which isn't mind effecting (Silver plated helmet), or hasn't been stopped by your item of Line of Epic Dispel Magic at will (Decanter of Endless Water). Plus you can just throw literally 50GP worth of salt on the ground around you to stop any sort of undead, summon or outsider from attack you. That is >12k GP to pretty much be "Screw you Wizards I R level 5 Fighter Rawr!".

[Dagroth]

Actually, I would rule that the Line of Salt had to be put down carefully to ensure that there were no places where the line was less than an inch wide.

Dumb monsters (skeletons, zombies, etc.) are stumped. Smart monsters start throwing rocks... not at the party, but at the line of salt!

[Psyren]

Dumb monsters (skeletons, zombies, etc.) are stumped. Smart monsters start throwing rocks... not at the party, but at the line of salt!

Or they squirt water at it to "dispel" it :smallbiggrin:

[Grod_The_Giant]

Counters to spells often come online before the spells themselves, and in may cases are absolute. Protection from Evil is level 1 and can ward against much higher level spells, nondetection is 3rd and scrying doesn't come online until 4th, Dimensional Lock is 8th, sure, but Forbiddance is 6th and is also naturally permanent. Mage's private sanctum is 5th and blocks divination completely. Also, I assume you're referring to dimension door as an example...but using a 7th level spellcaster to bring two soldiers into a castle is probably not a good use of any of those resources.
Okay, point, but I don't want magic to be the only way to stop these things, otherwise you run into situations where every noble needs either high-level casters of their own, pretty much on retainer, or is instantly obliterated by the first mid-level caster who wanders by.


Under these rules, a pretty paltry amount of salt can render very powerful creatures as a non-threat as early as level 1, many of which are encounter staples. Clearing out the family crypt of zombies just became a heck of a lot easier. OTOH minions actively lead by a spellcaster have little to worry about as the spellcaster can either direct them to indirectly remove the salt, or just do it himself.
Hmm, add in a little Dresden Files, then? Need to shed a drop of blood to activate the line, and once you do anything crossing it/shooting across it breaks it. (Though the warded creatures can't even try). That way it's a barrier, but not a safe firing line.


The running water rules are a little unclear. Does rain count as partial immersion? I can see ponchos(or travel cloaks which explicitly keep you completely dry) as very popular equipment among low level spellcasters. Full immersion doesn't happen often in my experience, PCs are often loathe to actually go swimming since it puts them at a massive disadvantage against creatures with actual swim speeds. They're even more loathe to do it if it's gonna dispel their buffs.
Rain should be partial, yeah. A good poncho should work too. I should add a rule about trying to cast through rain.


The silver rules for warding locations are fine but honestly probably too cheap, any location of any import that isn't dirt cheap is going to be warded for a trivial cost, making those abilities essentially worthless. Armor giving bonuses against spells is a little cheap for it's effect too, but medium/heavy armor are quite bad otherwise so that's probably fine. Getting total immunity to mind affecting spells for 250gp is pretty ridiculous though, isn't that school hamstringed enough?
I can crank up the cost, but it shouldn't be too expensive or it's useless. I'm entirely okay with teleportation magic becoming useless for infiltrating high-value targets, though-- there are still plenty of uses for it, and plenty of places that won't be caked in silver.


Actually, it takes a 7th-level spell, unless you either (a) know the castle like the back of your hand, in which case it's probably yours anyway, or (b) want those soldiers to be in the walls, privy, or 100 miles distant.
Dimension Door was what I was thinking about


Also, I definitely think the idea of being able to dispel with water balloons or a hose is iffy at best.
Water balloons won't work because they're not flowing. And probably aren't immersing 25% of your body. That's why the dispel takes a full round to kick in; you need to make someone stop in the middle of the river to become vulnerable, not just splash them. Not sure where you'd get a firehouse in D&D.


Decanter of Endless water is now discount mage's disjunction at will!
It should be nonmagical flowing water, right.


250 GP to be immune to most enchantment and illusion magic?!? +750GP on your armour gives you +3 (seemingly untyped) bonus to spells!
I'll drop the helmet thing, definitely. Maybe the armor thing too.


Actually, I would rule that the Line of Salt had to be put down carefully to ensure that there were no places where the line was less than an inch wide.

Dumb monsters (skeletons, zombies, etc.) are stumped. Smart monsters start throwing rocks... not at the party, but at the line of salt!
Good call, though I think the salt needs to be immune to tampering from said spirits, otherwise it's kind of useless.

[Segev]

The first "impracticality" worry I had was that the running water thing makes spells like water breathing near-useless. Especially in rivers. It also does invite the invention of medieval super-soakers. The ability to just keep throwing buckets of water, or to bathe in a river until an unwanted effect goes away, is a little too much, I think.

Maybe instead have running water diminish the range and emanation/area of spells cast over it. Treat it as twice the distance if a spell or its AoE passes over or through running water.

[Psyren]

Dimension Door was what I was thinking about

First, if they can get that close they have a number of other ways inside. I'd say Lock is the worst of your problems at that point.

Second, Dimension Door is still a [teleportation] effect and therefore still subject to the same limitations like the energy clause.



Not sure where you'd get a firehouse in D&D.
...
It should be nonmagical flowing water, right.

You can dump 2 gallons of purely nonmagical water on someone's head with Floating Disk, a 1st-level spell. You've just made things even easier for casters at that point.


Good call, though I think the salt needs to be immune to tampering from said spirits, otherwise it's kind of useless.

That sort of clause works for Binding because they're stuck in a circle and can't really do anything. For broader applications of salt, there are all kinds of indirect things they can do to mess with it. Like, scaring nearby animals (rats? dogs?) into running across the line and disrupting it, or opening a nearby window on a breezy/rainy day.

[Beheld]

I don't want bad solutions to non-problems in the first place. But I definitely don't want them to negate entire campaigns by dispelling water breathing and making the elemental plane of water a really ****ty place.

[Grod_The_Giant]

The first "impracticality" worry I had was that the running water thing makes spells like water breathing near-useless. Especially in rivers.
You're right. That would be bad. Why would I--

Spells with the [Water] descriptor, spell-like abilities used by [Water] creatures, and the Water Breathing spell are not affected.
Oh yeah.


It also does invite the invention of medieval super-soakers. The ability to just keep throwing buckets of water, or to bathe in a river until an unwanted effect goes away, is a little too much, I think.

Maybe instead have running water diminish the range and emanation/area of spells cast over it. Treat it as twice the distance if a spell or its AoE passes over or through running water.
I could see having it accelerate the duration instead, perhaps? But good luck getting a strong enough pump and enough water to maintain the kind of stream you need to get that effect.


First, if they can get that close they have a number of other ways inside. I'd say Lock is the worst of your problems at that point.

Second, Dimension Door is still a [teleportation] effect and therefore still subject to the same limitations like the energy clause.
Needing "strong magical energy" is sort of the kind of thing I'm trying to get away from.


You can dump 2 gallons of purely nonmagical water on someone's head with Floating Disk, a 1st-level spell. You've just made things even easier for casters at that point.
Flowing water. It has to last a full round.

the dispel check is made with a +5 bonus, and occurs at the end of the first full round of exposure, and then once per minute afterwards.
I'm 100% behind you that dumping a bucket of water on someone's head shouldn't do anything.


That sort of clause works for Binding because they're stuck in a circle and can't really do anything. For broader applications of salt, there are all kinds of indirect things they can do to mess with it. Like, scaring nearby animals (rats? dogs?) into running across the line and disrupting it, or opening a nearby window on a breezy/rainy day.
That sort of thing should be fine. I'll have to work on the wording... something like "Cannot directly interfere with the line, such as by pushing the salt aside with a foot or sword, but can attempt to break the line through less direct means, such as recruiting helpers or creating wind."

[Segev]

For the salt, I'd go with "can't touch or manipulate the salt with their own power, whether by mundane tools, physical limbs, or esoteric powers. Indirect means relying on other agents or uncontrolled phenomena - such as the wind that happens to blow through an open window - can still be 'aided' in disrupting a salt line."

For the water, my problem with it is that it invites so many "games" with the system. I don't think it practical, and the fact that you have to make specific exception for [water] spells starts making one wonder why they get a pass. If the flowing water disrupts magic, shouldn't [water] spells not work?

Perhaps, instead, you should go with a more abstracted effect, where magic can't cross or is disrupted by ley lines or the like, and note that ley lines are very frequently found sharing riverbeds.

[lord_khaine]

Okay, point, but I don't want magic to be the only way to stop these things, otherwise you run into situations where every noble needs either high-level casters of their own, pretty much on retainer, or is instantly obliterated by the first mid-level caster who wanders by.

Im a 100 % behind this idea, and might even steal parts for a personal campaign at some point. Not 100 % sold on the running water thing, newer liked that part in the Dresden files.

But i could see the idea in metals generally being very magically innert. Maybe with each kind providing a bonus against a specific school of magic, when part of a armor. And disrupting the flow of spells from that type in general. So that either silver or cold iron would then disrupt teleportation spells. Perhaps sages and mystics could shape geometic wards from those metals to increase the spell disruption chance, and thereby provide walls that blocked out teleportation. Or a massive sigil inlaid in the kings audience chamber that constantly tries to dispel mind affection spells.

Do like the idea of having Orichalcum as the completely magically innert metal though. Having SR: yes if you tries casting a spell directly on it. Giving Spell resistance if made into an armor. And ignoring a lot of defensive spells if made into a weapon.
But of course also completely impossible to enchant.
And not certain about how it should act with different sort of damage reductions. Besides those comming from spells of course.

[daremetoidareyo]

More than silver, cold iron should be the anti-magic metal.

I love these ideas btw. Except the running water thing. It's inherently too messy for the types who prefer dnd to other systems, generally and lovingly derogatorily speaking.

[Psyren]

Needing "strong magical energy" is sort of the kind of thing I'm trying to get away from.

"physical or magical energy." So there are already wholly mundane solutions, is the point I'm making.



That sort of thing should be fine. I'll have to work on the wording... something like "Cannot directly interfere with the line, such as by pushing the salt aside with a foot or sword, but can attempt to break the line through less direct means, such as recruiting helpers or creating wind."

I agree it should be fine, but that's how it works for a very small circle currently. For a large enough area, salt is easy enough to screw with that it may as well not be there.

Though I concede that it's funny to envision the Fighter doing something like this:

https://i2.wp.com/www.ourgodgivenmission.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/Stay-Salty-.gif?fit=400%2C217

[Cosi]

We all know that magic trumps nonmagic in 3.5. A big part of that, once you move beyond the battlefield, is that magic is really hard to stop without using more magic-- and more powerful magic. I mean, it only takes a 4th level spell to teleport soldiers into a castle, but an eighth level spell to stop that? And one that needs to be renewed every two weeks or so? Bah. The thing is, that's not the case for a lot of fiction. So, as one Small Tweak for a Better Game (the first of many, perhaps?), I propose some houserules to allow purely mundane characters to deal with magic just a little bit better.

This is the wrong approach. Of course magic is better than mundane. Mundane is defined as "things you can do", magic is defined as "things you can describe". Magic is always going to be better. The answer should be to give people some damn magic.


Salt: Salt is anathema to unearthly creatures. A line of salt functions similarly to a Magic Circle Against Evil. Outsiders, undead, and summoned creatures cannot cross or disturb a line of salt, provided the line is at least one inch thick. If such creatures touch more than an ounce or so of salt, they suffer 1d6 damage. A pound of salt costs 5 gold, and can be use do draw a total of fifty feet of salt line. Laying down an unbroken line of salt takes time, however-- one full round action per five foot segment, which provokes attacks of opportunity. [Earth] creatures are unaffected.

This should definitely have a CR cap. It's not a great idea to begin with, but having 5 GP worth of salt make you immune to Lolth seems really bad for the setting.


Running Water: Water is the element of purity. Natural (ie, non-conjured) running water, be it rain, a river, or even a shower, acts to disrupt and dispel ongoing magic. Immersion in running water produces the effects of a targeted Dispel Magic spell. If only partially immersed (between ~25 and 75% of your body), the dispel check is made with a +5 bonus, and occurs at the end of the first full round of exposure, and then once per minute afterwards. Casting a spell while partially immersed has a 25% failure chance. If fully immersed, the dispel check is made with a +10 bonus and occurs at the end of the first full round of exposure, and then once per round afterwards. Casting a spell while fully immersed has a 50% failure chance. A rainstorm counts as partial exposure, unless protected by a good cloak or umbrella. The 25% failure chance affects spells cast through a rainstorm, even if the caster is dry. Spells with the [Water] descriptor, spell-like abilities used by [Water] creatures, and the Water Breathing spell are not affected.

Just off the top of my head, Naga are magic users that live in water. Having water screw with magic seems deeply problematic for them, along side all the Kuo-Toa cultists, Black Dragons, or Sahuagin priestesses the game has running (well, swimming) around. If water dispels magic, you can't have great fortresses of mystic coral submerged beneath the waves, or vast bubble cities on the Elemental Plane of Water. Actually, if rain counts, you can't have permanent magic outside.

Losing those things seems way worse than having magic beat mundane countermeasures.


I'm not just posting this to be contrary though - my larger point is that a lot of these campaign-bruising spells have limitations built in that GMs are expected to use, even if few on this forum do. Teleport not only has a chance of failure, it has the all important energy clause that opens the floodgates to any number of discouragements. Bargaining with called creatures has the "unreasonable commands" and "subversion" clauses. Simulacrum has the "appropriate abilities" clause. And so on.

This is, obviously, a bad plan. You don't have to screw people out of teleport. You can just write plots teleport doesn't break. It's not even hard. For example, all exploration plots. If you don't know where you're going, you can't very well teleport there.

You don't need any restricts on teleport to make the game work. You just need to apply the same creativity that Psyren applies to screwing his players to writing good adventures.


Okay, point, but I don't want magic to be the only way to stop these things, otherwise you run into situations where every noble needs either high-level casters of their own, pretty much on retainer, or is instantly obliterated by the first mid-level caster who wanders by.

Why not? In a world where high level characters are explicitly better than low level ones, shouldn't you expect kingdoms to generally be ruled by the highest level interested party?

[Grod_The_Giant]

For the salt, I'd go with "can't touch or manipulate the salt with their own power, whether by mundane tools, physical limbs, or esoteric powers. Indirect means relying on other agents or uncontrolled phenomena - such as the wind that happens to blow through an open window - can still be 'aided' in disrupting a salt line."
That's pretty good.

Water-as-dispel seems to be a major sticking point, but I do think there should be some mundane/ritual way to get enchantments and the like off people. I liked running water because it's not the easiest thing to game; you need either substantial engineering or a natural feature. It's easy to imagine, say, people having to shower before meeting the king, but it's hard to force the BBEG to take a shower mid-fight-- you'd need to wrestle them into a river or something, which would be fun and satisfying in and of itself, methinks. But still...

What if immersion in running water merely made spells wear off sooner? That way you could have permanent magical effects out there without having to worry about getting rained out.
What if running water only worked for some spells-- say, illusions and enchantments? (Which are easy to counter with magic, yes, yes, I know. They're also the most likely to disrupt social structures here). Possibly in combination with the previous point?
We could switch gears entirely, go back to the classics, and let Moly plants be a natural dispel magic mechanism. That becomes a lot easier to game, though.



More than silver, cold iron should be the anti-magic metal.
That's not a bad thought.

[ATHATH]

It's going to be much harder to get the rainstorm boost for Call Lightning now...

[Haluesen]

It does turn a Decanter of Endless Water into a powerful tool at lower levels though. :smallbiggrin:

I also don't like Silver being the anti-magic material, considering you need Silver (and sometimes Magic + Silver) weapons to overcome many creature types' DR.

Inventing a new material, like Orihalcum, works better. Just be sure to remind PCs who want Orihalcum weapons/armor... it can't be enchanted.

That last part is what I really like, having antimagical gear that also cannot be magic. I can imagine it having a place in a few games.



Overall I like the idea of mundane ways to fight magic, but do feel that what was presented should be tweaked. That said most people here have already suggested good ways to make these work. I like the salt idea the most though because it is so common in media that most people will know about it. That makes it easier to integrate into a game.

[Dagroth]

I think an Orihalcum Chain Shirt would give SR 17, with +2 SR for every point of AC higher than 4. So an Orihalcum Breastplate would give SR 19 while Mountain Plate (+10 armor bonus) would give SR 29 (and should be appropriately expensive).

Oh, and needless to say, Orihalcum armor would have a 100% spell failure chance that even affects Divine Casters, Psionics, Incarnum, Binding... all forms of magic manipulation.

[daremetoidareyo]

Incense and herb burning is another potent material/ritual imbued with the power to dispel magicks and spirits. You could do running water for one spell type to dispel and different herbs dispelling other magic schools. Burning sage against necromancy/divinations, frankincense for nullifying compulsions, etc.

[Psyren]

That's pretty good.

Water-as-dispel seems to be a major sticking point, but I do think there should be some mundane/ritual way to get enchantments and the like off people.

I think you're a bit too fixated on "accessible to mundane" as opposed to "accessible to martial." In short, just because something is non-magical does not mean it can't still require special training or a technique of some kind. What about the likes of Shatterspell or Spell Sunder? The King would then find it in his best interests to employ a bodyguard capable of using such a technique, assuming he doesn't simply stick a dispel trap in the throne-room door.

Keeping outsiders and undead at bay with relatively common items, I can understand - after all, in the game today you can repel vampires with delicious seasoning, or present objects to a summoned fiend that it hates and fears to make it want to leave. These concepts exist in the game already. But magic being susceptible to running water seems unnecessary.

[rel]

How about tying your antimagic tricks to the skill system. There are a whole bunch of methods and traditions for defeating magic picking the right one to use for a given set of spells in a given situation and applying it correctly is a skill check.
The particulars aren't important your character just rolls their antimagic skill to targetted dispel. Or ward an area. Or a character. Or whatever you want available.

If you don't want spellcasters getting in on the antimagic skills scene add a clause that magic of any sort cannot buff antimagic checks and caster levels of all sorts apply a suitable penalty to the skill.

Also, this isn't a mechanical problem but it is a real thematic sticking point for me;
Teleporting invoves getting somewhere without passing through the intervening space.
Warding an area against teleportation by putting a box around it makes no sense whatsoever. It's like protecting an area from flying enemies by surrounding it with cattle traps.
Instead have your nega material or warding protect a radius around itself. bigger the source, bigger the radius. This actually makes sense unlike the nonsensical lead box idea and works a lot better for defending an area anyway.

[WhatThePhysics]

Salt: Salt is anathema to unearthly creatures. A line of salt functions similarly to a Magic Circle Against Evil. Outsiders, undead, and summoned creatures cannot cross or disturb a line of salt, provided the line is at least one inch thick. If such creatures touch more than an ounce or so of salt, they suffer 1d6 damage. A pound of salt costs 5 gold, and can be use do draw a total of fifty feet of salt line. Laying down an unbroken line of salt takes time, however-- one full round action per five foot segment, which provokes attacks of opportunity. [Earth] creatures are unaffected.

I wonder, does the salt need to be in powder form, and exposed on an open surface? If not, I can see halite arrowheads and slabs being very popular, and communities could incorporate both halite and salt into their buildings.


Running Water: Water is the element of purity. Natural (ie, non-conjured) running water, be it rain, a river, or even a shower, acts to disrupt and dispel ongoing magic. Immersion in running water produces the effects of a targeted Dispel Magic spell. If only partially immersed (between ~25 and 75% of your body), the dispel check is made with a +5 bonus, and occurs at the end of the first full round of exposure, and then once per minute afterwards. Casting a spell while partially immersed has a 25% failure chance. If fully immersed, the dispel check is made with a +10 bonus and occurs at the end of the first full round of exposure, and then once per round afterwards. Casting a spell while fully immersed has a 50% failure chance. A rainstorm counts as partial exposure, unless protected by a good cloak or umbrella. The 25% failure chance affects spells cast through a rainstorm, even if the caster is dry. Spells with the [Water] descriptor, spell-like abilities used by [Water] creatures, and the Water Breathing spell are not affected.

I'm going to assume Control Weather and Decanters of Endless Water won't produce such effects, as they require magic. Otherwise, armies will use that spell, or employ flying beasts for sprinkler styled battlefield control. Also, Cosi eloquently expressed (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21779579&postcount=19) my main concern with this houserule: it cripples aquatic creatures in their natural habitats.


To add to the list of suggested materials and methods, such as cold iron for magic resistance, and burning incense to dispel effects, what if cold iron can also penetrate magical defenses, and incense can "poison" spellcasters by applying the Impeded Magic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/planes.htm#impededMagic) trait onto them? That way, spellcasters will have to worry about mundane assassins sprinkling powdered incense in their drinks, shooting their minions with halite tipped arrows, then stabbing them in the back with a cold iron dagger.

[Zombimode]

We all know that magic trumps nonmagic in 3.5. A big part of that, once you move beyond the battlefield, is that magic is really hard to stop without using more magic-- and more powerful magic. I mean, it only takes a 4th level spell to teleport soldiers into a castle, but an eighth level spell to stop that? And one that needs to be renewed every two weeks or so? Bah. The thing is, that's not the case for a lot of fiction. So, as one Small Tweak for a Better Game (the first of many, perhaps?), I propose some houserules to allow purely mundane characters to deal with magic just a little bit better.

Salt: Salt is anathema to unearthly creatures. A line of salt functions similarly to a Magic Circle Against Evil. Outsiders, undead, and summoned creatures cannot cross or disturb a line of salt, provided the line is at least one inch thick. If such creatures touch more than an ounce or so of salt, they suffer 1d6 damage. A pound of salt costs 5 gold, and can be use do draw a total of fifty feet of salt line. Laying down an unbroken line of salt takes time, however-- one full round action per five foot segment, which provokes attacks of opportunity. [Earth] creatures are unaffected.

Running Water: Water is the element of purity. Natural (ie, non-conjured) running water, be it rain, a river, or even a shower, acts to disrupt and dispel ongoing magic. Immersion in running water produces the effects of a targeted Dispel Magic spell. If only partially immersed (between ~25 and 75% of your body), the dispel check is made with a +5 bonus, and occurs at the end of the first full round of exposure, and then once per minute afterwards. Casting a spell while partially immersed has a 25% failure chance. If fully immersed, the dispel check is made with a +10 bonus and occurs at the end of the first full round of exposure, and then once per round afterwards. Casting a spell while fully immersed has a 50% failure chance. A rainstorm counts as partial exposure, unless protected by a good cloak or umbrella. The 25% failure chance affects spells cast through a rainstorm, even if the caster is dry. Spells with the [Water] descriptor, spell-like abilities used by [Water] creatures, and the Water Breathing spell are not affected.

Silver: Silver is a magically inert material. Even a thin layer of silver blocks teleportation and divination magic altogether. An area fully enclosed by silver (approximately; it doesn't need to be airtight, but no windows or large cracks) is treated as a solid object for the purposes for teleporting into or out of it, though once inside one could teleport around the interior. Silver also extends into the ethereal plane, affecting incorporeal creatures as though they were solid-- a ghost cannot walk through a silver wall, and can be affected by a silver blade. A pound of silver costs 5 gold and can be used to cover 10 square feet of surface. Armor may be lined with silver to provide a bonus on saves against spells and spell-like abilities, granting a +1 bonus to saves against spells and spell-like abilities for 500 gold.
Note: You can use any special material you want; I mostly like silver because I read the Bartimaeus trilogy at a formative age

What do people think?

They are interesting ideas... but for my D&D 3.5 games I don't really want stuff like that. For me at least the Settings and stories that work best with D&D 3.5 are NOT about the plucky cook who finds her Courage and repells the mighty demon in the nick of time with a line of salt to save the life of the prince who then falls in love with the cook.
It is about the Court Mage, the First Knight and the High Priest of Church that are called and band together to destroy the demon after it has killed the prince (and an unnamed cook) and find the ones responsible for summoning it and bringing them to justice.

[Segev]

So the goal with the running water thing is more to have dispel magic available to non-mages, but only through some difficulty. The goal, conversely, is not to have magic in general interfered with by random environmental conditions (with the possible exception of the thematic "cross a river to escape the supernatural thing" trope). Is that right?

Given that Holy Water has, as a rather significant ingredient, silver, and your rules about silver being a magic-combating material, you could have it be Holy and Unholy water which has the dispelling effect. A ritual baptism by immersion could count as a targeted dispel magic. Perhaps with a CL equal to ranks in Spellcraft of the person performing the immersion. (No ranks still lets you try it, but you're relying solely on the power of the water and not doing anything 'clever' to enhance its likelihood of success.) The immersion might require a full round (as in, like casting summon monster) with a helpless or willing target.

This doesn't allow for the "cross the river to escape" trope, but it would be quite doable for any reasonably-sized village. Keeping a "witch bath" for such purposes is within the means of nearly any community. Under the care of the local priest, shaman, or what-have-you.

[yellowrocket]

After some thought on the implications of mundane anti magic, it's the only reason orcs and goblins are a threat. Otherwise is to easy to reach a pun pun level of magic.

Each if these methods is fallible to a degree but their existence explains the low level rulers of many of the kingdoms. Assuming you use these methods of course.

[Grod_The_Giant]

So the goal with the running water thing is more to have dispel magic available to non-mages, but only through some difficulty. The goal, conversely, is not to have magic in general interfered with by random environmental conditions (with the possible exception of the thematic "cross a river to escape the supernatural thing" trope). Is that right?
Exactly so.


Given that Holy Water has, as a rather significant ingredient, silver, and your rules about silver being a magic-combating material, you could have it be Holy and Unholy water which has the dispelling effect. A ritual baptism by immersion could count as a targeted dispel magic. Perhaps with a CL equal to ranks in Spellcraft of the person performing the immersion. (No ranks still lets you try it, but you're relying solely on the power of the water and not doing anything 'clever' to enhance its likelihood of success.) The immersion might require a full round (as in, like casting summon monster) with a helpless or willing target.

This doesn't allow for the "cross the river to escape" trope, but it would be quite doable for any reasonably-sized village. Keeping a "witch bath" for such purposes is within the means of nearly any community. Under the care of the local priest, shaman, or what-have-you.
That's a pretty good version, yeah. Perhaps with a Knowledge (Religion) check allowing you to temporarily bless water?


How about tying your antimagic tricks to the skill system. There are a whole bunch of methods and traditions for defeating magic picking the right one to use for a given set of spells in a given situation and applying it correctly is a skill check.
The particulars aren't important your character just rolls their antimagic skill to targetted dispel. Or ward an area. Or a character. Or whatever you want available.

There are traditions in almost every culture dealing with this sort of mundane ward against the supernatural, and I like the idea of incorporating that sort of thing. Most of the time, knowledge of that sort of thing was the purview of sages, wise women, and the like- would it be appropriate to make these expanded uses of different skills? Heck, all the purported powers of different crystals could give people other than Crystal Masters reason to take Knowledge: gemology.
I do kind of like the idea of tying various thaumaturgic rituals to a skill. Time and special materials to reproduce low-level magic seem fine to me. A holy water baptism to wash away spells, salt to bar outsiders, some sort of treated candle (moly?) that burns blue in the presence of magic...


Also, this isn't a mechanical problem but it is a real thematic sticking point for me;
Teleporting invoves getting somewhere without passing through the intervening space.
Warding an area against teleportation by putting a box around it makes no sense whatsoever. It's like protecting an area from flying enemies by surrounding it with cattle traps.
Instead have your nega material or warding protect a radius around itself. bigger the source, bigger the radius. This actually makes sense unlike the nonsensical lead box idea and works a lot better for defending an area anyway.
Technically, [Teleport] spells go through the Astral Plane; blocking astral travel blocks teleporting.


I wonder, does the salt need to be in powder form, and exposed on an open surface? If not, I can see halite arrowheads and slabs being very popular, and communities could incorporate both halite and salt into their buildings.
Yeah, I imagine that would work. It would be expensive as heck, presumably.


To add to the list of suggested materials and methods, such as cold iron for magic resistance, and burning incense to dispel effects, what if cold iron can also penetrate magical defenses, and incense can "poison" spellcasters by applying the Impeded Magic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/planes.htm#impededMagic) trait onto them? That way, spellcasters will have to worry about mundane assassins sprinkling powdered incense in their drinks, shooting their minions with halite tipped arrows, then stabbing them in the back with a cold iron dagger.
Mmm, that's not terrible. I'm not so much interested in it as a poison as in it as a more environmental hazard, one that-- like a salt circle-- might require a bit of thinking to get around.

[Segev]

I'd probably go so far as to allow any of K:Religion, Profession(priest), or Craft(Alchemy) produce holy water "mundanely." The spell becomes a shortcut, doing it much faster.

Edit: Given that I think we also have axiomatic and anarchic water (the lawful and chaotic equivalents of (un)holy water), we could probably have them work on any magic except that which has the [alignment] descriptor. So you can't use unholy water to dispel an [evil] spell.

Or do the reverse: it takes that aligned water to do it. The [evil] magic just causes the holy water to boil off.

[Mendicant]

I love these, and will definitely try them out.

Some other thoughts I had:

Sign against the evil eye: A hand motion that provides SR or a save bonus or some other protection against Bestow Curse, Baleful Polymorph, and spells with the evil descriptor.

Domovoi/lares/other household spirit:
A small, 1HD fey creature with always-on invisibility, detect magic, and true seeing who can cast magic circle against evil and dismissal as a 10th-level Cleric. Only stays and protects homes that are neat and clean where people don't use bad language. Has no power or no inclination to do anything outside its home.

A domovoi will be almost useless against any number of common monsters or even the baron's goons, but even a handful in a village could make that place a dodgy thing for a lot of evil spirits or demons or whatever, going some way towards explaining how those places survive between friendly adventurer visits.

[lord_khaine]

I think an Orihalcum Chain Shirt would give SR 17, with +2 SR for every point of AC higher than 4. So an Orihalcum Breastplate would give SR 19 while Mountain Plate (+10 armor bonus) would give SR 29 (and should be appropriately expensive).

Oh, and needless to say, Orihalcum armor would have a 100% spell failure chance that even affects Divine Casters, Psionics, Incarnum, Binding... all forms of magic manipulation.

Kinda think a 100 % spell failure chance is a little immersion breaking. Dislike the idea that a chain shirt is not the perfect mage restraint. Would instead just make it so that any attempt to use a supernatural ability has to breach the SR of the armor. Even skills that normally dont allow SR.


I think you're a bit too fixated on "accessible to mundane" as opposed to "accessible to martial." In short, just because something is non-magical does not mean it can't still require special training or a technique of some kind. What about the likes of Shatterspell or Spell Sunder? The King would then find it in his best interests to employ a bodyguard capable of using such a technique, assuming he doesn't simply stick a dispel trap in the throne-room door.

I belive that was the entire intention. To make mundanes a little less insignificant in the grand sceme of things. Or to provide more options for lovlevel people to in some way impair higher level ones.

[Zanos]

I belive that was the entire intention. To make mundanes a little less insignificant in the grand sceme of things. Or to provide more options for lovlevel people to in some way impair higher level ones.
Psyren's pointing out that you don't have to make counters to magical abilities available to everyone in order to make them available to martial characters. I kind of agree. The defense against a high level character should be another high level character of some type. So the nightmarish hodes of undead raised by the epic necromancer Cronenburg shouldn't be stopped by a peasant with a bucket of salt or an aqueduct, but rather someone or many lesser someone's of skill warding against them. And for the record, low level martial characters can't do jack against high level martial characters anyway in 3.5, so I don't see why it shouldn't be the same for casters. A 20th level fighter is worth probably any number of 1st level warriors.

So you could make it skill based or a feat chain, or something, rather than just stuff anybody can do.

[Psyren]

Psyren's pointing out that you don't have to make counters to magical abilities available to everyone in order to make them available to martial characters. I kind of agree. The defense against a high level character should be another high level character of some type. So the nightmarish hodes of undead raised by the epic necromancer Cronenburg shouldn't be stopped by a peasant with a bucket of salt or an aqueduct, but rather someone or many lesser someone's of skill warding against them. And for the record, low level martial characters can't do jack against high level martial characters anyway in 3.5, so I don't see why it shouldn't be the same for casters. A 20th level fighter is worth probably any number of 1st level warriors.

So you could make it skill based or a feat chain, or something, rather than just stuff anybody can do.

Indeed.

Now I'm not saying some counters (like salt) can be universal, but there should be limits to the kinds of things they can keep at bay. Adding a CL cap to the bath's dispel is a good example of what I would do. Similarly, I don't see why salt should be allowed to stop a Bebilith - at some point, you should just need a genuine Magic Circle. Basically with this, there should never be a reason to ask "why would I ever bother preparing the spell?"

[Mendicant]

I have yet to see anything in this thread that would really stop or even impede a 10th level caster, much less a 20th-level one.

[frogglesmash]

A couple thoughts on ways to expand the list of mundane protections:
A pretty common type in folklore is that certain plants and herbs etc. against different spirits/monsters/supernatural entities. You also find lot of cultures that use symbols and objects of spiritual or religious significance to ward people and locations.

[WhatThePhysics]

Yeah, I imagine that would work. It would be expensive as heck, presumably.
The halite arrows, or the halite/salt construction techniques?

If you interpret the mundane crystal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/specialMaterials.htm#crystalMundane) and masterwork projectile (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#masterworkWeapons) rules as being applicable to halite arrows, each shot costs 6 GP. That's pricey, but an extra 1d6 damage for every few arrows that hit would give mundanes a fighting chance against the likes of a wightocalypse.

As for warding buildings, it costs 18.52 GP to surround a 5 foot square with an inch of stuff that's 5 mm tall. If level 1 commoners get at least 5 GP/week with Profession checks of [1 (Roll) + 4 (Ranks) + 3 (Skill Focus) + 2 (Masterwork Tools)]/2, and a community of 100 workers has a 10% income tax rate, they can afford to ward 100 individual 5 foot squares in 260 days of taxes. It'd be a tiny equivalent of a storm cellar, except for demons and such. Towns and cities could afford to create funneling routes and kill zones in less than a decade, and eventually ward every 5 foot square of urban space.

[The Vagabond]

Psyren's pointing out that you don't have to make counters to magical abilities available to everyone in order to make them available to martial characters. I kind of agree. The defense against a high level character should be another high level character of some type. So the nightmarish hodes of undead raised by the epic necromancer Cronenburg shouldn't be stopped by a peasant with a bucket of salt or an aqueduct, but rather someone or many lesser someone's of skill warding against them. And for the record, low level martial characters can't do jack against high level martial characters anyway in 3.5, so I don't see why it shouldn't be the same for casters. A 20th level fighter is worth probably any number of 1st level warriors.

So you could make it skill based or a feat chain, or something, rather than just stuff anybody can do.
Pathfinder and 3.5 both have their own ritual system; A good method to make it so that it's somewhat limited is to use that instead of it being available to everyone, it's available upon request. The nightmarish hordes of undead can be stopped by a ritual led by the Wizard's party and the townsfolk.

[lord_khaine]

I have yet to see anything in this thread that would really stop or even impede a 10th level caster, much less a 20th-level one.

Perhaps you have not read it closely enough then.
A fortification he could not get into would certainly impede his ability to get into it. At least undetected.
And a critt from a arrow that bypasses his defensive spells would be if not fatal then most likely a bit annoying.

[Mendicant]

What fortification can't he get into? At worst, you have someone wealthy enough that they can lace every wall and ceiling of their fortress with silver and you can't teleport in or use etherealness. That's certainly a barrier, so maybe I'm being too broad, but is still a far cry from impossible to infiltrate magically. Invisibility, spider climb, knock, flight, polymorphing, shrinking, silence, domination and charming... there are still a lot of ways to magic your way in there without teleportation. If the owner of said fortification isn't packing some serious magic of his own, that caster can probably just nuke it without consequence anyway.

I think people are radically overestimating how much these changes will impact high-level play.

[Mendicant]

The biggest difference for higher-level play seems like the barriers to divination, imo. Most people with the resources to would probably invest in a silver/orichalcum Faraday cage for sensitive locations. You could build a whole espionage subplot around sabotaging the protection: cut into the cage to "break the seal" so to speak, and replace the damaged section with a device that lets you close things back up when you aren't listening in, in order to avoid the breach getting detected.

[WhatThePhysics]

Note: Apologies for the deleted post, Mendicant. OCD is a pain, and I didn't notice you were the one that replied before deleting.


What fortification can't he get into? At worst, you have someone wealthy enough that they can lace every wall and ceiling of their fortress with silver and you can't teleport in or use etherealness. That's certainly a barrier, so maybe I'm being too broad, but is still a far cry from impossible to infiltrate magically. Invisibility, spider climb, knock, flight, polymorphing, shrinking, silence, domination and charming... there are still a lot of ways to magic your way in there without teleportation. If the owner of said fortification isn't packing some serious magic of his own, that caster can probably just nuke it without consequence anyway.

I think people are radically overestimating how much these changes will impact high-level play.
Based on the first post's current contents, you're right. Even a fortress designed by an engineer with a blank check will be rather easy for a 10th level wizard to infiltrate.

Plating every ceiling, floor, wall, and door with silver can prevent ethereal travel, divinations, and teleportations into or out of each room, but they'll need vertical doors to hinder a polymorphed wizard. Moly candles can alert sentries to nearby magic, but nondetection with a caster level of 7 can always circumvent candles with a caster level of 1. A witch's bath has a 25% chance to shut down the wizard's strongest spells, but they can just escape a room filling up with (un)holy water by using resilient sphere, explosive runes, and passwall in tandem.

To be fair, we are talking about a 10th level wizard that's sufficiently prepared for such a mission. Unless it's a high powered campaign that hasn't devolved into a wish loop carnival, such a figure would be quite rare. If cold iron or orichalcum were antimagical, things would be much more difficult for the wizard. Even then, the wizard could just use major creation (antiosmium), resilient sphere, and teleport to obliterate the fortress and surrounding areas.


The biggest difference for higher-level play seems like the barriers to divination, imo. Most people with the resources to would probably invest in a silver/orichalcum Faraday cage for sensitive locations. You could build a whole espionage subplot around sabotaging the protection: cut into the cage to "break the seal" so to speak, and replace the damaged section with a device that lets you close things back up when you aren't listening in, in order to avoid the breach getting detected.

I believe casting alarm on the inner surfaces of a silver cage would discourage spies from penetrating it while within 20 feet, and surrounding it with a water filled shell that's linked to an internal pressure gauge can notify those inside of (impending) sabotage. Still, using telekinetic effects to quietly puncture the cage and prevent water from entering inside is doable, but we could go on and on about countermeasures to countermeasures. Either way, one could just use mage's private sanctum to increase internal security. Orichalcum being antimagical would likely require the alarms to be placed outside of the cage, which exposes them to dispelling, and seems suboptimal.

[Pleh]

I like it. Never been a big fan of casters living on a completely different level than the rest of the world. If magic is natural, it should have strange weaknesses that seem weak, but just have an arcane relationship with magic. Even Superman gets taken down with a rock.

The TV show Gargoyles reminded us that Fey are susceptible to Iron in some stories. The sound of an iron bell was enough to dispel all buffs on an elven lord and leave him weakened (we're talking classic elves, not the puny starting race kind).

RAW says that Jade can be a protection against taint and evil magic.

I like the idea of a party fleeing an over powered boss, taking shelter in a cave, and watching the boss glare at them furiously just outside. They wonder for a moment why he spares them, only to realize they are in a salt mine. It won't keep him out forever, but it has bought them the reprieve they needed.

I like the CR cap idea, but I'd rather see it function *like* SR. Monsters must make some kind of level check to overcome the defense, having more hit dice or higher level spells helps, and some are too weak to have a chance (no automatic successes on a 20). Even on a success, they can still have penalties to their actions until they leave the warded area.

I would add that any magically generated water has no dispelling qualities. It should be strictly native, mundane water that can dispel. The "sanctification" of making the water holy just invokes and amplifies the liquid's latent connection to magical processes.

[rel]

Exactly so.
Technically, [Teleport] spells go through the Astral Plane; blocking astral travel blocks teleporting.


This is true but teleporting on the material plane doesn't involve spatial travel on the astral plane.
In other words you don't go to the astral plane, move some distance while there then go back to the material plane.

To stop teleporting you need to block astral travel in the area of the material plane where the teleport either originated from or arrived at. not at some arbitrary point between material plane origin and destination.

[lord_khaine]

What fortification can't he get into? At worst, you have someone wealthy enough that they can lace every wall and ceiling of their fortress with silver and you can't teleport in or use etherealness. That's certainly a barrier, so maybe I'm being too broad, but is still a far cry from impossible to infiltrate magically. Invisibility, spider climb, knock, flight, polymorphing, shrinking, silence, domination and charming... there are still a lot of ways to magic your way in there without teleportation. If the owner of said fortification isn't packing some serious magic of his own, that caster can probably just nuke it without consequence anyway.

I think people are radically overestimating how much these changes will impact high-level play.

There has also newer been used the word impossible. But at the moment your wizard can no longer just dimension door inside his plan has a much lower rate of success. And the owner of said fortress then actually has a chance to implement measures to counter your other suggestions.

Also, i really would like to know how your level 10 wizard is going to nuke an entire fortress on his own, without being turning into a pincussion (or harried by flying monsters). What sort of absurd combo are you going to use, to destroy a large stone construction in a few rounds?


To be fair, we are talking about a 10th level wizard that's sufficiently prepared for such a mission. Unless it's a high powered campaign that hasn't devolved into a wish loop carnival, such a figure would be quite rare. If cold iron or orichalcum were antimagical, things would be much more difficult for the wizard. Even then, the wizard could just use major creation (antiosmium), resilient sphere, and teleport to obliterate the fortress and surrounding areas.

No, Major creation specifies that it can be used to create Matter. Its a serious grey zone to use it to create anti-matter.


I believe casting alarm on the inner surfaces of a silver cage would discourage spies from penetrating it while within 20 feet, and surrounding it with a water filled shell that's linked to an internal pressure gauge can notify those inside of (impending) sabotage. Still, using telekinetic effects to quietly puncture the cage and prevent water from entering inside is doable, but we could go on and on about countermeasures to countermeasures. Either way, one could just use mage's private sanctum to increase internal security. Orichalcum being antimagical would likely require the alarms to be placed outside of the cage, which exposes them to dispelling, and seems suboptimal.

I believe the main idea behind this were also to give some more tools to people without magic. And not just add another step to the magical arms race.

[WhatThePhysics]

No, Major creation specifies that it can be used to create Matter. Its a serious grey zone to use it to create anti-matter.
In that case, conjuring 10 cubic feet of a sufficiently unstable uranium isotope in a pond should do the trick.


I believe the main idea behind this were also to give some more tools to people without magic. And not just add another step to the magical arms race.
If we're only using nonmagical methods, those seeking privacy could wear orichalcum in a chamber that is plated with lead, orichalcum, and silver, surrounded by halite, submerged in a witch's bath, and contains moly candles.

[Fizban]

Okay, point, but I don't want magic to be the only way to stop these things, otherwise you run into situations where every noble needs either high-level casters of their own, pretty much on retainer, or is instantly obliterated by the first mid-level caster who wanders by.
So. . rituals incantations (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/incantations.htm) then, as has been mentioned. Which allow anyone with the skill checks to do up any effect for which the DM has approved an incantation. Which can be ridiculously specific such as say, a ritual that casts a permanent dimensional lock but only on castles during the feast of fortifications while two dozen people seed the area with 5,000gp worth of silver mirrors (net -8, DC 26).

Though I always throw in the caveat that I've never actually built any, since I agree with the others that it should take a caster to counter a caster, and cities of sufficient size have plenty of high level casters. If you can't get one on payroll you probably don't deserve to be in charge. A healthy dose of lead and proper entry point defenses is enough to make things difficult.

[Pleh]

So. . rituals incantations (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/incantations.htm) then, as has been mentioned. Which allow anyone with the skill checks to do up any effect for which the DM has approved an incantation. Which can be ridiculously specific such as say, a ritual that casts a permanent dimensional lock but only on castles during the feast of fortifications while two dozen people seed the area with 5,000gp worth of silver mirrors (net -8, DC 26).

Though I always throw in the caveat that I've never actually built any, since I agree with the others that it should take a caster to counter a caster, and cities of sufficient size have plenty of high level casters. If you can't get one on payroll you probably don't deserve to be in charge. A healthy dose of lead and proper entry point defenses is enough to make things difficult.

See, I don't get the idea that only casters counter casters.

Salt is a material component in spellcasting. Wouldn't it make sense that a substantial amount of it could disrupt the act of casting for spells that ask for material components?

I think people want magic to be too strong.

EDIT (to avoid double post):

I want to see casters have roughly the same power level as hackers do in our society.

Some use the power to take what they want, others try to disrupt social order, some just enjoy the power trip by itself. Others employ themselves to helping governments, corporations, and individuals by crafting magic items to sell or by providing longstanding service.

The best defense against an enemy hacker is a better programmer, but oftentimes just being more trouble than you're worth is enough. For common people, hackers make viruses. Wizard viruses are magic monsters. It makes sense that common people would have just enough knowledge arcana in their collective culture to know to have a firewall to keep out viruses and maleware and to not go to websites or agree to anything that seem illigitimate.

It's not that a determined wizard can't bypass a firewall made from salt. It's that adding salt should be a game changer that forces the wizard to do more work.

[Krazzman]

From the books/media I have seen that use mundane stuff to incapacitate casters/creatures:

Anti-Magic Swords, it never is mentioned how they work but against anything magical they are treated like a constantly dispelling sword. In the [X] Mage series those swords are basically used by an organization against magic. They cut through anything enchanted and suck the magic potential out of the foe you are fighting. This could work through a special material that depending on "purity" forces the hit caster to lose spell slots similar to a spell thief's ability, whilst also dispelling things. For DnD/Pathfinder some fine tuning would be needed.

Magic Absorbing Crystals, glow depending on sort of magic aura near. Don't know which book series it was.

Obsidian: this is from the Lightbringer series where they use color magic, filtering color through their eyes into solid and weaponlike things. With an open cut they suck the "Luxin" right out of the "caster". Similar fine tuning problem like Anti-Magic Swords.

Salt and Iron against incorporeal stuff like in the Supernatural TV-Series. The Same series has Phoenix Ash against the Mother of Monsters, Wood against "gods" and some other fun ritualistic stuff against "magic".

Iron Chains/Manacles: Block Magic in quite many books.

Leadsheets block divination and all other sorts of things. (Don't know which books that were).

Mirror Armor, gave bonus AC against Touch Attack of spells basically.

There are loads of "magic blocking"/dizziing or outright knockout powders in many many books as well as acupuncture like magic blocking.

[daremetoidareyo]

See, I don't get the idea that only casters counter casters.

Salt is a material component in spellcasting. Wouldn't it make sense that a substantial amount of it could disrupt the act of casting for spells that ask for material components?

I think people want magic to be too strong.


There are quite a few vocal caster-apologists on the forum who consistently advocate against any substantive caster nerfing. The typical solution to caster disparity is to give mundanes more magic.

Any counter magical measures that could be purchased by a normal member of npc society is anathmic to them. Don't want the mystical havenots have too much autonomy you see, then the power fantasy is that much less magical.

[Psyren]

There are quite a few vocal caster-apologists on the forum who consistently advocate against any substantive caster nerfing. The typical solution to caster disparity is to give mundanes more magic.

Any counter magical measures that could be purchased by a normal member of npc society is anathmic to them. Don't want the mystical havenots have too much autonomy you see, then the power fantasy is that much less magical.

Curses, you've seen through our dread scheme - we desire only to keep the unwashed muggle masses beneath our bootheel for all eternity, muahaha! *twirls mustache*

Or, you know, what we actually want is a sense of verisimilitude in our game worlds. Maybe defeating a 9th-level spell with a condiment is something you're totally fine with, but there is some set of the playerbase (and the designers, for that matter) that will generally consider that to feel silly.

The thread however is asking for feedback, and while I find the entire premise personally unnecessary, that isn't too helpful, so I've been willing to make concessions in order to participate. CL caps on behalf of the method, or CL checks on behalf of the monsters, both restore some of that lost verisimilitude in my opinion, which gets me a little more on board with these ideas.

[daremetoidareyo]

Curses, you've seen through our dread scheme - we desire only to keep the unwashed muggle masses beneath our bootheel for all eternity, muahaha! *twirls mustache*

Or, you know, what we actually want is a sense of verisimilitude in our game worlds. Maybe defeating a 9th-level spell with a condiment is something you're totally fine with, but there is some set of the playerbase (and the designers, for that matter) that will generally consider that to feel silly.

The thread however is asking for feedback, and while I find the entire premise personally unnecessary, that isn't too helpful, so I've been willing to make concessions in order to participate. CL caps on behalf of the method, or CL checks on behalf of the monsters, both restore some of that lost verisimilitude in my opinion, which gets me a little more on board with these ideas.

As usual, if it doesn't apply, let it fly.

This was a phenomenological observation, not an insult.

Verisimilitude ended at someone able to planeshift to hell and back with their clone. Putting some nerfs to that fingerwagging for unlimited cosmic power isn't where the verisimilitude should start. The tippyverse is a natural outgrowth of magic advocacy.

Requiring that only magic can surpress magic does keep the muggles down. The fantasy tropes stop making sense with caster supremacy as seen on these boards. There would never be a mundane king, they would all be liches. Which is a cool setting, but those liches would ban magic and genocide everyone who could learn it.

But, I've derailed us enough.

[Psyren]

As usual, if it doesn't apply, let it fly.

This was a phenomenological observation, not an insult.

Verisimilitude ended at someone able to planeshift to hell and back with their clone. Putting some nerfs to that fingerwagging for unlimited cosmic power isn't where the verisimilitude should start. The tippyverse is a natural outgrowth of magic advocacy.

Requiring that only magic can surpress magic does keep the muggles down. The fantasy tropes stop making sense with caster supremacy as seen on these boards. There would never be a mundane king, they would all be liches. Which is a cool setting, but those liches would ban magic and genocide everyone who could learn it.

But, I've derailed us enough.

That's precisely why D&D settings have deities, to keep them from devolving into the sort of Tippyverse magocracies you describe. Or if they don't have overt deities, they have some other checks-and-balances phenomenon that serves the same purpose, like Eberron's Prophecy. There are no lich-kings, dragon emperors or Pun-Puns running rampant even with magic being stronger because nobody is allowed to ascend that high. That is the design intent, and plenty of us like it that way.

[Segev]

Uncle's oft-repeated quote, "Magic must defeat magic," is okay as long as magic can be done by anybody. Sure, Peasant Pete might not be able to do 13 rituals for every kind of supernatural threat out there, but neither can he cure a disease by brewing a medicine. However, he can follow the local apothecary's instructions in administering a medicine to himself or his sick loved one, and he can likewise follow a rote set of instructions on laying out ritual incense and herbs at his thresholds to ward off evil spirits.

"Magic" need not be strictly spells. I mean, we already have (Sp) and (Su) abilities. Why not magic that anybody can do if they perform specific actions, and more powerful effects which are just skill checks to do right (with proper materials). Especially if these things are restricted to defensive measures rather than full-on active magic.

Tying in skill checks makes it feasible to have rolls against CL-based DCs, as well.

Even if standing in a 10-DC circle of salt just counts as protection against evil from a 1st level caster that lasts only as long as you don't move (rather than the actual spell's freedom to move about), that's something. Said 10-DC circle would be what the untrained lumpkin told to ring himself with salt might do. Or what an unseen servant could do. Though if it's a Spellcraft check, it still takes training, so neither of those could do it. Hrm.

Anyway, as you can see, I'm kind of feeling it out here, more than making a definite rules proposal.


There would never be a mundane king, they would all be liches. Which is a cool setting, but those liches would ban magic and genocide everyone who could learn it.
D&D has this. She rules the Githyanki race as their immortal god-queen.

[Zanos]

I want to see casters have roughly the same power level as hackers do in our society.

Some use the power to take what they want, others try to disrupt social order, some just enjoy the power trip by itself. Others employ themselves to helping governments, corporations, and individuals by crafting magic items to sell or by providing longstanding service.

The best defense against an enemy hacker is a better programmer, but oftentimes just being more trouble than you're worth is enough. For common people, hackers make viruses. Wizard viruses are magic monsters. It makes sense that common people would have just enough knowledge arcana in their collective culture to know to have a firewall to keep out viruses and maleware and to not go to websites or agree to anything that seem illigitimate.

It's not that a determined wizard can't bypass a firewall made from salt. It's that adding salt should be a game changer that forces the wizard to do more work.
Computers have inherent value, which is why hackers attack them. Even if there's no personal information in your machine it can still be wielded as part of a botnet to execute DDOS attacks or infected with ransomware. There are a lot of computers which are insufficiently protected because the series of tubes is a constantly evolving cat and mouse battle between security and exploitation. It is easy to go for the lowest hanging fruit when people becoming the lowest hanging fruit over time by simply not doing anything.

Almost none of these parallels apply to spellcasters. They aren't going to go after undefended locations. They are not valuable, and even if they were most spellcasters don't make a habit of kidnapping the inhabitants of hamlets and ransoming them.



There are quite a few vocal caster-apologists on the forum who consistently advocate against any substantive caster nerfing. The typical solution to caster disparity is to give mundanes more magic.

Any counter magical measures that could be purchased by a normal member of npc society is anathmic to them. Don't want the mystical havenots have too much autonomy you see, then the power fantasy is that much less magical.
Not at all what I'm saying. A commoner can buy a sword and armor, but he isn't going to be able to wield it with any sort of ability to provide even a minor inconvenience to a high level martial character. Non-magic magical counters are something that could easily fit into the setting, but they should require skill or training to wield against powerful spellcasters. Something being non-magical is not the same as being something anyone and their grandmother can do.


There would never be a mundane king, they would all be liches. Which is a cool setting, but those liches would ban magic and genocide everyone who could learn it.
I think you would struggle to find a propsperous nation in a printed D&D setting that wasn't either headed by a powerful spellcaster or had major backing from spellcasters. Neverwinter was ruled by Lord Nasher for example, a former adventurer himself, but he has the backing of the Many-Starred Cloaks to defend the city from magical threats.

I guess there might be some that were designed around not having magic to begin with.


That's precisely why D&D settings have deities, to keep them from devolving into the sort of Tippyverse magocracies you describe. Or if they don't have overt deities, they have some other checks-and-balances phenomenon that serves the same purpose, like Eberron's Prophecy. There are no lich-kings, dragon emperors or Pun-Puns running rampant even with magic being stronger because nobody is allowed to ascend that high. That is the design intent, and plenty of us like it that way.
That isn't true at all. The purpose of deities has never been to reign in powerful spellcasters, and in many settings the patrons of arcane spellcasters are among the most powerful gods in the setting anyway (Boccob, Mystra, Nethys). I can't think of a canon example in any popular D&D setting where it went "oh, this spellcaster is too clever or powerful, so the deities smote him and he was destroyed." That's bad, uninteresting, lazy writing. And it's ridiculous from a DMing standpoint too, you should just tell your players what you're comfortable with, not have the deities step in to troll them whenever their characters get more powerful than you're comfortable with.

And there are Lich Kings and Dragon Emperors. Far too many to name all of them in any reasonable timeframe. They don't take over the entire setting, usually, but tend to carve out pretty respectable parts of the world. Larloch, Szass Tam, The Simbul, Geb, Athas's Sorcerer Kings, Nex, etc. all pretty much kept nations entirely under their own control by virtue of their own power. In many of these cases the only thing that prevents the character from taking over even more of the setting is their own personalities, or other spellcasters.

[Cosi]

That's precisely why D&D settings have deities, to keep them from devolving into the sort of Tippyverse magocracies you describe. Or if they don't have overt deities, they have some other checks-and-balances phenomenon that serves the same purpose, like Eberron's Prophecy. There are no lich-kings, dragon emperors or Pun-Puns running rampant even with magic being stronger because nobody is allowed to ascend that high. That is the design intent, and plenty of us like it that way.

If the designers didn't want the setting to devolve into the Tippyverse, they should have written rules that don't support the Tippyverse. Writing rules that support the Tippyverse then smacking anyone who has the temerity to use those rules to do the things they say they do is bad design, and you shouldn't do it.

[Psyren]

That isn't true at all. The purpose of deities has never been to reign in powerful spellcasters, and in many settings the patrons of arcane spellcasters are among the most powerful gods in the setting anyway (Boccob, Mystra, Nethys). I can't think of a canon example in any popular D&D setting where it went "oh, this spellcaster is too clever or powerful, so the deities smote him and he was destroyed." That's bad, uninteresting, lazy writing. And it's ridiculous from a DMing standpoint too, you should just tell your players what you're comfortable with, not have the deities step in to troll them whenever their characters get more powerful than you're comfortable with.

And there are Lich Kings and Dragon Emperors. Far too many to name all of them in any reasonable timeframe. They don't take over the entire setting, usually, but tend to carve out pretty respectable parts of the world. Larloch, Szass Tam, The Simbul, Geb, Athas's Sorcerer Kings, Nex, etc. all pretty much kept nations entirely under their own control by virtue of their own power. In many of these cases the only thing that prevents the character from taking over even more of the setting is their own personalities, or other spellcasters.

"Other spellcasters" - yes, exactly, like the Harpers, or the Chosen of Mystra, or the Witches of Rashemen, or the Pathfinders - groups that all have deific sponsorship or sanction somewhere along the line. That's how these deities operate - not directly, but by helping to establish organizations of do-gooders to work on their behalf, and send them out on quests to get stronger. And you're absolutely right that the gods of arcane are typically the most powerful ones in the setting, which is why they tend to be the last line of defense. You're acting like Elminster and The Simbul's power has nothing to do with Mystra at all, or Raistlin's has nothing to do with Gilean, or Khelben or Amlaruil etc. Did you think they just studied really hard and got no help at all?

As for lich kings, I never said they don't exist. What I said is precisely what you said (emphasized above.) They are kept in check. Maybe they can run a region or even a nation, but the minute they set their gaze loftier than that, they'll have adventurers at their doorstep before you can say "questgiver." Who do you think is behind that?

[Zanos]

"Other spellcasters" - yes, exactly, like the Harpers, or the Chosen of Mystra, or the Witches of Rashemen, or the Pathfinders - groups that all have deific sponsorship or sanction somewhere along the line.
Sure, but there's also groups of spellcasters sponsored by Evil deities of similar power to continue to expand. Shar has her shadow weave adepts and the city of Shade, Larloch(who isn't a deity, but wields pretty comparable power) frequently sponsors the Red Wizards of Thay to further his interests elsewhere, Bane and Cyric work through the Zhentarim and it's Hounds. This isn't a dedicated effort by deities to keep spellcasters under control, it's a proxy war of deific influence in the material world. That's more Good vs Evil or Us vs. Them then it is Deities vs Spellcasters.


That's how these deities operate - not directly, but by helping to establish organizations of do-gooders to work on their behalf, and send them out on quests to get stronger. And you're absolutely right that the gods of arcane are typically the most powerful ones in the setting, which is why they tend to be the last line of defense. You're acting like Elminster and The Simbul's power has nothing to do with Mystra at all, or Raistlin's has nothing to do with Gilean, or Khelben or Amlaruil etc. Did you think they just studied really hard and got no help at all?
Mystra has also aided jerks, too. Larloch specifically received an intact chapter of the nether scrolls directly from her and later went on to screw with some of the chosen. She is acting to preserve the Weave and arcane magic by extension, which is her job. The only time she has ever acted to keep wizards and sorcerers from wielding power is when it directly threatened her. She was perfectly happy for the Netherese to keep chugging along for thousands of years, completely dominating the world and enslaving anyone who wasn't an arcanist to work the fields under their flying cities until one of them killed her, and thus damaged the Weave's integrity. And several of the chosen, including Elminster, were already incredibly powerful before they were chosen. I won't deny that Mystra aided them in combating mostly Evil threats, but those threats almost always hurt the power of arcane magic in Faerun. Mainly Shar.


As for lich kings, I never said they don't exist. What I said is precisely what you said (emphasized above.) They are kept in check. Maybe they can run a region or even a nation, but the minute they set their gaze loftier than that, they'll have adventurers at their doorstep before you can say "questgiver." Who do you think is behind that?
Okay, so your argument is that deities sponsor other spellcasters or powerful individuals to stop people who threaten their interests. I agree with that portion of it entirely, but it's not a targeted effort against spellcasters, spellcasters are just the most likely to threaten the interests of deities because they're more powerful than mundanes.

[lord_khaine]

In that case, conjuring 10 cubic feet of a sufficiently unstable uranium isotope in a pond should do the trick.

Good luck specifying the exact sort of unstable material though. Uranium is already by default unstable.


Though I always throw in the caveat that I've never actually built any, since I agree with the others that it should take a caster to counter a caster, and cities of sufficient size have plenty of high level casters. If you can't get one on payroll you probably don't deserve to be in charge. A healthy dose of lead and proper entry point defenses is enough to make things difficult.

Thats kinda the whole point of this tread though. The idea that casters should not be required to counter casters. And that at the very least there should be more mundanes of high or low lewel could to do either ruin the day of casters, or at the very least force them to work a bit harder.

[Cosi]

This isn't a dedicated effort by deities to keep spellcasters under control, it's a proxy war of deific influence in the material world. That's more Good vs Evil or Us vs. Them then it is Deities vs Spellcasters.

This is true. Really, "deities are active in the world" causes more problems than it solves. There are gods of destruction whose explicit goal is to cause the apocalypse. Causing the apocalypse with high level caster minions is painfully easy in D&D. Given the rules and interventionist deities, the world should be a smoking crater populated only by ravenous undead. The fact that it isn't is every bit as much a mystery as a world without interventionist gods being in medieval stasis.


Okay, so your argument is that deities sponsor other spellcasters or powerful individuals to stop people who threaten their interests. I agree with that portion of it entirely, but it's not a targeted effort against spellcasters, spellcasters are just the most likely to threaten the interests of deities because they're more powerful than mundanes.

Also, there are totally gods who would very much like a magical singularity. Any god of magic would presumably like there to be more magic. Good gods should like the prospect of putting an end to disease, feudalism, or subsistence farming. Depending on exactly how you execute your singularity, there should be other gods that are very much on board with it.

[Psyren]

I had a longer reply typed up but I think I've derailed the thread enough. So I'll drop it after concurring with this last point.



Okay, so your argument is that deities sponsor other spellcasters or powerful individuals to stop people who threaten their interests. I agree with that portion of it entirely, but it's not a targeted effort against spellcasters, spellcasters are just the most likely to threaten the interests of deities because they're more powerful than mundanes.

You're absolutely right, they (deities) do this not to target spellcasters - they do it to target disruption as a whole and maintain the status quo. But you have to understand that the whole point of magic is to change reality - whether on a small scale (there is no web here, now there is one) or a large one (Tippyverse.) So the fact that spellcasters ARE the ones who are most likely to threaten those interests is true, and it also makes perfect sense that they would be. The whole point of magic is to concentrate reality manipulation down to the individual level. Perhaps 3.5 and PF take it to an extreme, but it hasn't seemed to hurt their popularity any, and receptions to 4th and 5th has proven that this is still the overall paradigm and power fantasy that people want from their games.

[Pleh]

Computers have inherent value, which is why hackers attack them. Even if there's no personal information in your machine it can still be wielded as part of a botnet to execute DDOS attacks or infected with ransomware. There are a lot of computers which are insufficiently protected because the series of tubes is a constantly evolving cat and mouse battle between security and exploitation. It is easy to go for the lowest hanging fruit when people becoming the lowest hanging fruit over time by simply not doing anything.

Almost none of these parallels apply to spellcasters. They aren't going to go after undefended locations. They are not valuable, and even if they were most spellcasters don't make a habit of kidnapping the inhabitants of hamlets and ransoming them.

Who said anything about ransoming? Your imagination seems to be lacking. Helpless peasants can be enthralled to manual service, their souls harvested for power, their bodies animated, their blood used to fuel spells, they can be subject to experimentation, and much more.

Hackers don't hack computers to ransom them back to the owners. The parallels are sound.

A wizard that can find no use for a defenseless village full of humanoid resources is either too good or too stupid to realize the potential.

[Zanos]

Who said anything about ransoming? Your imagination seems to be lacking. Helpless peasants can be enthralled to manual service, their souls harvested for power, their bodies animated, their blood used to fuel spells, they can be subject to experimentation, and much more.

Hackers don't hack computers to ransom them back to the owners. The parallels are sound.

A wizard that can find no use for a defenseless village full of humanoid resources is either too good or too stupid to realize the potential.
Hackers do, actually. It's called ransomware and targets both individual and corporate systems.

Most casters are neutral to good, so I'm not sure where you got the idea that they're all just running around terrorizing peasants because they're low hanging fruit.

Most of what you listed is either remarkably inefficient or requires access to very specific prestige class features. Peasant blood isn't a spell component in high demand, high level casters don't need manual laborers, peasant undead suck and the world runneth over with already dead people anyway, and trapping a peasant soul costs more than the soul is actually worth.

[Cypher5]

Not sure if this counts as a small tweak or strictly mundane but your proposition was similar to one I myself have messed around with and the best one I have found was to use a modified version of Otataral from Malazan Series. Otataral is basically a rust red ore or dust that is created when powerful magic or other reality warping supernatural stuff happens, creating pockets of the stuff as an after effect of the use of magic. It nullify's any magic that comes in contact with it and the real kicker is that creatures that are exposed to it over time can absorb the the properties of Otataral and thus become immune. For me this helped with the solved the problem with having epic mages being countered by some peasants with a bag of salt or blobs of iron.

For me I just tweaked it a little for my own group use;

1. Spells over 5th level naturally create Otataral as a byproduct of the casting. Spell under 5th are too weak to create enough Otataral to last for any length of time.
2. Any spell can be decayed into Otataral, though only high level spells can make enough Otataral to start effecting the environment. The Abjuration school of magic is merely the proper way to dispel magic without creating Otataral.
3. Animals and plant life that are exposed to Otataral and gain the magical nullifying effect breed true and can pass down such traits to their offspring.

I found this worked out best for my own little band.Mages themself being able to create their own anti-magical bane forced an interesting choice for my caster's. You could drop those high level reality bending spells all day but run the risk of down the line of creating an ever increasing hostile environment. Cast to many meteor swarms and the next thing you know that even the squirrels can shrug off a fireball spell like it is nothing. I found this actually created a sense of consequence in using magic. You know like their could be a actual downside to breaking reality. I hope this helps

[Pleh]

Most casters are neutral to good, so I'm not sure where you got the idea that they're all just running around terrorizing peasants because they're low hanging fruit.

Where is it written that most casters are neutral to good? Why would evil casters be less common?


Most of what you listed is either remarkably inefficient or requires access to very specific prestige class features. Peasant blood isn't a spell component in high demand, high level casters don't need manual laborers, peasant undead suck and the world runneth over with already dead people anyway, and trapping a peasant soul costs more than the soul is actually worth.

Most of what I listed are common fantasy tropes, which the thread is trying to capture.

[dhasenan]

If the designers didn't want the setting to devolve into the Tippyverse, they should have written rules that don't support the Tippyverse. Writing rules that support the Tippyverse then smacking anyone who has the temerity to use those rules to do the things they say they do is bad design, and you shouldn't do it.

They created a game with rules suitable for a range of settings, published across a large series of books and articles, written by many people. They created a game where any one DM would only have access to a subset of the available content, and each DM might have a different subset. They created a game where DMs are expected to set house rules for what's allowed and what's in the universe's backstory. They created many different settings. They created abilities within the game that support the range of settings they envisioned and more.

Most of all, they prioritized what would make a fun game over what would make a consistent setting, relying on DMs to bridge that gap. This makes sense: they're in business to sell game books, not novels. For those of us who want a world that fundamentally makes sense, though, it's not as satisfying.

Tippyverse, however, depends on abusing Wish and self-resetting magic traps, and in custom magic items, and in not using cursed magic item rules, and in mages capable of expending vast amounts of XP on single items. Designing traps is explicitly called out as an activity involving DMs.

There are other ways to achieve outrageously high magic with rules as written. For instance, XP is rewarded for defeating creatures. You and four friends get together and have three-on-two fights using nonlethal damage, rotating the teams each time. Do that every day and you gain a level every other week, if not more often. Build a magic item of at-will healing and you can get a dozen levels a day if you're dedicated. Who needs mass magic items when you reach level 1000 the year after you come of age? But again, that's in the DM's purview, and the speed of gaining levels is a prioritization of the game experience over consistent worldbuilding.

[Zanos]

Where is it written that most casters are neutral to good? Why would evil casters be less common?
The number of (Good + Neutral) casters is higher than the number of Evil casters, since Evil hasn't won in the majority of settings.


Most of what I listed are common fantasy tropes, which the thread is trying to capture.
It's in the 3.5 forum using 3.5 mechanics in the OP, so if you're going to make an argument about what's efficient for people to actually do I'm going to assume 3.5 rules.

[Pleh]

The number of (Good + Neutral) casters is higher than the number of Evil casters, since Evil hasn't won in the majority of settings.

Not if gods are the reason lich kings don't rule the land. In that case, evil wizards can outnumber other casters 5 to 1 and it doesn't matter because gods.



It's in the 3.5 forum using 3.5 mechanics in the OP, so if you're going to make an argument about what's efficient for people to actually do I'm going to assume 3.5 rules.

I'm not saying we don't use 3.5 rules. I'm saying the OP implied designing houserules to modify 3.5 to capture fantasy tropes the system currently doesn't support very well.

[Zanos]

Not if gods are the reason lich kings don't rule the land. In that case, evil wizards can outnumber other casters 5 to 1 and it doesn't matter because gods.
That was never my point of view, so I'm not sure why you're throwing it in my face to argue against me.


I'm not saying we don't use 3.5 rules. I'm saying the OP implied designing houserules to modify 3.5 to capture fantasy tropes the system currently doesn't support very well.
So in order to argue that the system doesn't support his houserules very well, you created a scenario that wasn't at all based on how the systems current rules exist?

[Pleh]

That was never my point of view, so I'm not sure why you're throwing it in my face to argue against me.

I don't intend any degree of hostility and I'm sorry if I misattributed someone else's words to you. In my mind, the argument had become something of a group effort and unless otherwise stated, the magic apologists were largely forming a single set of arguments.

It doesn't negate my point that there can be other reasons that evil casters are in large number, but not as effective as theoretically possible (specifically such as something like salt being a magic inhibitor).


So in order to argue that the system doesn't support his houserules very well, you created a scenario that wasn't at all based on how the systems current rules exist?

I don't recall arguing that the system doesn't support his houserules very well. My position is quite the opposite: 3.5 has a few rules similar to his house rules already.

[bean illus]

I love the idea that mundanes have ways to glitch the magic users.
Obviously, mundane counter measures to magic would have severe limitations. I think those limitations should probably be attached to both a standard and a chance (something like a skill check), as well as other limitations.

Each counter/glitch should only work under certain circumstances, and perhaps against certain schools/etc, which is what Grod is working on.
It should be set up that most mundanes have a fair chance of thwarting a caster of equal CR for a few rounds (if the caster is present) or more (on a crit?). There should be a diminishing scale against higher CR, but there should always be a chance for the mundane to get extra lucky and have decisive effect on caster quite a bit higher than themselves.
Attaching the effect to a skill check might sorta work. Cha based? That way the character gets a chance to buy increase to this ability.

Mundane = ranks/2 + bonus + 20, can't try again for 24 hours?
Magic = level + bonus+ spell level + 20.

This would allow low CR mundanes to glitch some low level spells with relative consistency. but with diminishing effect against higher level CR?.

Mundane 1st level = 6 + 20
Magic 1st level = 6 + 20 ... beat by salt 50% of the time (only specific circumstances)

Mundane 20 level = 12 + 20 = 32 (+bonus)
Magic 20 level = 20 + 20 = 40 (+bonus) + spell level ... 1st lvl spell defeats mundane 73%, (9th lvl = 93%)

Of course only a very few mundanes would be optimized to this losing scale, so the numbers are really better than that against all but the most gifted mundanes.
And i think somewhere around 10th level a standard caster with a +3 item beats the most gifted and lucky mundane1 100% with a 1st lvl spell (step right over the salt and enter room). An fairly optimized 5th level caster should score with +3 item should beat giftedmundane1 90+% (and all other mundanes easily) with a 3rd lvl spell.

Oh well, i love the basic idea, and i'm done pretending i'm smart.

[lord_khaine]

The number of (Good + Neutral) casters is higher than the number of Evil casters, since Evil hasn't won in the majority of settings.

You cant draw such a conclusion from evil not having won in a majority of settings. It can just as easily be explained by evil being bad at coorperating.


I love the idea that mundanes have ways to glitch the magic users.
Obviously, mundane counter measures to magic would have severe limitations. I think those limitations should probably be attached to both a standard and a chance (something like a skill check), as well as other limitations.

I think your making stuff needlessly complicated here Bean Illus.

Magic is awfully versetaile. I dont think anyone here expected any of these changes to knock magic users a tier down. The changes wont stop wizards and the like from being kings of the hill, its mainly suposed to mean they have to work a little harder, or have a bit more to fear from being ganged up on by multiple lower level fighters/rogues, than they currently do.

[Rerednaw]

While a good idea one thing to keep in mind is the best source of mundane countermagic is well...magic.

Wall of Salt, Creation, Fabricate, Summon, etc...have to factor in "nope magic won't work to create manipulate " and now two guys with sticks beat up an archmage. If you want that...great.

Or add concentration check to every casting and remove concentration as a skill. Make concentration more Pathfinder and also much harder to use.

YMMV. Me I like magic...

[bean illus]

I think your making stuff needlessly complicated here Bean Illus.

Magic is awfully versetaile. I dont think anyone here expected any of these changes to knock magic users a tier down. The changes wont stop wizards and the like from being kings of the hill, its mainly suposed to mean they have to work a little harder, or have a bit more to fear from being ganged up on by multiple lower level fighters/rogues, than they currently do.

I didn't see it as very complicated (but i've been told that before).
In my 'mechanic' no tiers are changed, wizards are still top, but they do have to be just a tiny bit cautious of groups of mundanes getting lucky. Sound very similar to me.

My intent with the 'complications' was that a high level mundane would know a bit more and therefor scale towards failure against magic. (don't worry, i know most my ideas are not the best ones).


While a good idea one thing to keep in mind is the best source of mundane countermagic is well...magic.


Which seems to support my assumption that only talented and lucky mundanes would ever have more than small occasional success at mundane anti-magic.

[lord_khaine]

While a good idea one thing to keep in mind is the best source of mundane countermagic is well...magic.

Wall of Salt, Creation, Fabricate, Summon, etc...have to factor in "nope magic won't work to create manipulate " and now two guys with sticks beat up an archmage. If you want that...great.

Or add concentration check to every casting and remove concentration as a skill. Make concentration more Pathfinder and also much harder to use.

YMMV. Me I like magic...

Nice work trying to put up a strawman. Unfortunately you could just as easily say "and now a junior mage beats up a couple of legendary heroes"

Because thats the unfortunate situation right now. If you dont have any magic then your screwed. And a level 10 wizard could easily murder a level 15 fighter or two. While going the other way around, a couple of level 10 fighters would not even be considere a challenge by most level 15 wizards.

[martixy]

I specifically like the Silver bit. In general divination is already blocked by lead officially, so it makes sense for any castle or notable structure built in the D&D universe to be lead-lined as part of standard procedure. Extending that to silver for [Teleportation] spells is a logical short leap away.

I'm a bit iffy on the water thing. It puts a big crimp in water-heavy campaigns. There's issues with scale.

Salt is... very supernatural. :) For me it sounds kind of weird to lump all outsiders, from the imp to the balor. Also, the way it is worded, what is covered by the non-interaction clause? Physical contact with a tool? Sure. What about shooting an arrow that disrupts the line? What about any of the Instantaneous Conjuration (Creation) spells? Earthquake? How would it interact with spread-based spells like Darkness?

Further...There's a lot one can borrow from the Dresden universe.

The sunrise/sunset idea, the circles idea, the power of names, bits of yourself, the idea of thresholds. Some of it is even baked into the game to some degree(the bonuses you get for divinations for instance).

Thresholds are, IMO, a great idea with a lot of narrative potential(duh). Casters and supernaturals could suffer all manner of inhibitions and disadvantages to using their magical abilities(not complete breakdown though - even in the books, things powerful enough can overcome thresholds). It might work like "impeded magic", like proximity to the spire in the Outlands does, with varying degrees of impedance based on the integrity of the threshold.

P.S. Oh, btw, I forgot. There is actually already a material in D&D which impedes teleportation - solid positive energy. It's kind of on the extreme wrong end of the exotic-mundane scale though.

[Zanos]

Nice work trying to put up a strawman. Unfortunately you could just as easily say "and now a junior mage beats up a couple of legendary heroes"

Because thats the unfortunate situation right now. If you dont have any magic then your screwed. And a level 10 wizard could easily murder a level 15 fighter or two. While going the other way around, a couple of level 10 fighters would not even be considere a challenge by most level 15 wizards.
You don't have to be a level X anything to chuck salt, though. That's the issue.

[Mendicant]

Throwing salt at this point does 1d6 per attack and lets you make a fragile, immobile magic circle. It's a passive defense, and unless the person employing that defense has some level-appropriate response available, they're still doomed.


Or add concentration check to every casting and remove concentration as a skill. Make concentration more Pathfinder and also much harder to use.

The tweaks Grod proposed create more interesting problems to solve and more interesting solutions to problems. A check just uses up build resources on being allowed to do what your character is supposed to do. They aren't close to commensurate things.

This is also why I'm leery of checks to ignore these suggestions--a mob of angry commoners with torches and pitchforks could conceivably dunk a 2nd-level witch in a barrel of holy water. A 6th-level witch will require a much more elaborate plan and some actual firepower. Giving her a "nope" button that requires no real decision-making is boring. A sufficiently powerful creature or character is *already* capable of busting through a line of salt or avoiding a holy water bath, based on capabilities that are emergent in gameplay. Those are more fun, and more interesting, than Game of Boots (http://zeropunctuation.wikia.com/wiki/EVE_Online).

[Fizban]

Regarding the exact suggestions in the OP:

Salt: the main problem here is that wording it as salt-> spell effect does the opposite of undermining magic: it's just a poor substitute. It should be phrased as its own fact rather than borrowing a spell description. A line of salt blocks the passage of (whatever) and cannot be disturbed by them physically or magically (further definition of directness). The damaging effect basically removes all the low-level threat of such creatures, so that peasants who should flee in terror of minor demons and undead instead just have a guy throw salt at them, which I think is pretty lame. If the point is to remove the threat of summon spells then just mess with summon spells.

Witch's Bath: I don't actually understand what all this is supposed to do. If the mob dunks the witch they can get rid of Resist Energy (Fire) for a proper burning? It requires a willing or already beaten target and isn't strong enough to be of any real security value.

Moly Candle: a reasonable alchemical item, useful for making sure everyone's clean. Undermined by the phrase "new aura," which means it ignores anything that was already in range when lit thanks to "new," and even striking reference to Detect Magic the word "aura" can be referenced by a couple spells. Set a sufficiently low price and wide availability and you can hold meetings where people aren't allowed to show up with magic.

Silver: not particularly better than other teleportation adjustments, such as Frank and K's dungeon reasoning (40' of stone blocks tp) or simply using the same lead clause as [scrying] spells. At 5gp per 10 sq ft, it costs 50gp per 10 ft square. For comparison, Stronghold Builder's Guide puts lead lining at 1,000gp per 1,600 sq ft, about 3 times the cost but also explicitly inside the wall (which should entail extra cost), while the silver cost fails to include just how difficult it will be to perfectly sheet a lump of silver over that wide of an area (dare I say, a raw material cost setting the market price 3x higher). Teleportation spells can also be addressed via flat modifications to the whole descriptor, making the vulnerabilities an inherent part of the magic rather than a patched on counter.

Basically, if you want to weaken magic it's better to weaken magic, not make common materials mimic magic.


For removing magic I'd go with something like the thief's downfall:

Waterfalls: where water wears away stone, it also wears away magic. Passing under a waterfall (a natural source of water flowing off the edge of a natural stone precipice) automatically dispels one spell per 5' of distance or round spent standing within it, in order of strength from the highest level and caster level down, and casting a spell or activating a spell-like ability within/into the area is impossible. Many fortifications use aqueducts to channel nearby water sources into their underground dungeons and vaults, where they terminate in a fall carved from the natural stone in an opportune location.

[Vogie]

I dislike Silver being appropriated for teleportation as well - we already have lead as a material with innate antimagic properties. If you do want some form of secondary substitute, why not introduce some form of alternate, such as meteoric iron (a la Iron Druid series), Obsidian/Dragonglass(Black Prism Series), or maybe borrow from science and introduce the Faraday Cage?

I think a case could be made about Running water - Either flavored after Erosion, or that being based on a grounding principal (which flowing water, such as rivers, disrupt). Magic that is either water-based or water-adjacent is just fluffed as either a specifically different type of magic specifically made to resist water, or that the numbers shown are those adjusted for the presence of running water. (for example, Water breathing actually lasts for 6hours/level, but once you're actually in the water, it goes down to 2hours/level)

When it comes to salt, I think it would be decent as a mundane antimagic form AS LONG AS it can't be magically summoned. No "summon Walls of Salt", et cetera. But if a mage gets hit with an open bag of salt, or shot with a no-damage rock salt round, they have to deal with the salt first before they get their mojo back - Like Roy Mustang snapping his fingers in the rain. The salt lines or salt circles could certainly work as a mundane Wall of Force versus Demons and spirits *specifically*, but it shouldn't be universal antimagic solvent and condiment simultaneously.



Further...There's a lot one can borrow from the Dresden universe.

The sunrise/sunset idea, the circles idea, the power of names, bits of yourself, the idea of thresholds. Some of it is even baked into the game to some degree(the bonuses you get for divinations for instance).

Thresholds are, IMO, a great idea with a lot of narrative potential(duh). Casters and supernaturals could suffer all manner of inhibitions and disadvantages to using their magical abilities(not complete breakdown though - even in the books, things powerful enough can overcome thresholds). It might work like "impeded magic", like proximity to the spire in the Outlands does, with varying degrees of impedance based on the integrity of the threshold.

As a lover of the Dresden files, those make tons of sense with Dresden's ritual-style magic, but I don't know if the circles/names/et cetera works in Vancian-style magic.

I could certainly see the idea of Thresholds being a way to show why there aren't more people adventuring.