Middle Finger of Vecna's Witch class: Overpowered or Just Right?

[Giegue]

As the title asks. Just started folllowing middle finger of vecna and absolutely fell in love with the flavor of the witch class they made. It's dark, creepy, uses my favorite stat and is everything the Warlock should have been, but wasn't. However, at the same time it looks horribly overpowered on paper. Between the fact it gets 2 VERY STRONG features at 1st level along side it's full Spellcasting, a sizeable ammount of at-will "hexes" and spells known comproable to a bard it just seems straight up broken. However, nobody on its comments complains about the balance of any of those points, so I am wondering from those who have played one or seem one in play: is the Witch as broken as it looks on paper or is it more balanced then it first appears?

[jaappleton]

inb4DracoKnight :smallbiggrin:

(He's a member of MFoV)

EDIT: Honestly? It's a bit much. It is. It needs refining. It's about two notches too much.

[RedMage125]

Do you have a link for those of us who don't know what you're talking about?

[BigONotation]

I applaud their effort but they either never playtest or have no sense of balance. I do not allow any of their materials in my game.

[ShikomeKidoMi]

Definitely broken. The Curse abilities are, in and of themselves, too strong for first level abilities. Throwing two Hexes and full spell-casting on top of that, with a d8 hit dice is too much. And it doesn't look like the class balances out as you level, either.

I'll also note that the class looks like it took heavy inspiration from Pathfinder's Witch and Oracle classes, which may be part of the reason it's not balanced for 5th edition.

[Bahamut7]

Definitely broken. The Curse abilities are, in and of themselves, too strong for first level abilities. Throwing two Hexes and full spell-casting on top of that, with a d8 hit dice is too much. And it doesn't look like the class balances out as you level, either.

I'll also note that the class looks like it took heavy inspiration from Pathfinder's Witch and Oracle classes, which may be part of the reason it's not balanced for 5th edition.

I have to agree. As much as I want to try it...it just seems like a lot of freebies. Hexes and so many bonus spells. Not to mention no Witch Bolt, I know it sucked it 3.5/pathfinder, but I find it so iconic for the class. Maybe OP should seek a rebrew of the 4e Witch? I recall it being pretty balanced...but then again 4e had a lot of that.

[NNescio]

3rd-party conversions from Pathfinder are always suspect, and this is worse (in the cheesy sense) than Matt Mercer's Gunslinger and Blood Hunter.

[Submortimer]

I have to agree. As much as I want to try it...it just seems like a lot of freebies. Hexes and so many bonus spells. Not to mention no Witch Bolt, I know it sucked it 3.5/pathfinder, but I find it so iconic for the class. Maybe OP should seek a rebrew of the 4e Witch? I recall it being pretty balanced...but then again 4e had a lot of that.

Witch Bolt, the 5e spell, is not SRD, so anything that we make that is Patreon sponsored couldn't have it on its spell list.

[mephnick]

I applaud their effort but they either never playtest or have no sense of balance. I do not allow any of their materials in my game.

Unlike dndwiki I'll actually look at the stuff, but yeah the balance is all over the place.

[MrStabby]

This is why I don't use online homebrew.

Much better to do it yourself.

[Scarce]

Hey, all -- the author here!

Here's a link, for those who'd like to join the conversation. (http://www.middlefingerofvecna.com/2016/09/witch.html)

We're actively playtesting the witch, so I'm happy to discuss balancing details!

When it comes to the witch's DPR, it's generally right on par with the bard, and it's pretty far behind the warlock (at least until you get the Insidious Spell feature at 5th level, which helps round out the numbers in specific circumstances.) This is basically true because Hexes never deal damage -- they're like debuff cantrips, which you can extend using a Cackle.

There seems to be some concern about there being too many features at 1st level. I basically agree, but it doesn't seem right, at least to me, to move hexes to second level. In my mind, interaction with Hexes is the core of the class. If anyone would like to suggest an alternative placement of these features, I'll certainly consider them.

EDIT: One more note: In playtesting, the witch does feel right on par with 5e base classes, and a lot of this is due to the action economy. You can't Hex and cast a spell on the same turn, and you can't cackle and command your familiar to attack. And because most of the spell list, and indeed all the hexes, only deal with disabling enemies, not killing them outright, you get a sense that this class occupies a different area than most other classes.

[Flashy]

I'd say it's mostly okay with a few caveats. Its power grows pretty substantially as the party grows in a way not true for similar support classes, and there are definitely some hexes that are more powerful than others (mainly at-will invisibility and the pseudo-crown of madness).

Apart from that the balance feels basically reasonable.

[Scarce]

I'd say it's mostly okay with a few caveats. Its power grows pretty substantially as the party grows in a way not true for similar support classes, and there are definitely some hexes that are more powerful than others (mainly at-will invisibility and the pseudo-crown of madness).

Apart from that the balance feels basically reasonable.

Actually, I'd like to hear some thoughts on the Go Unseen hex. In my mind, the balancing factor is that all hexes require a verbal component when you cackle, which results in this entertaining disembodied laugh situation. That being said, it might need some more factors to limit it. Thoughts?

[Flashy]

Actually, I'd like to hear some thoughts on the Go Unseen hex. In my mind, the balancing factor is that all hexes require a verbal component when you cackle, which results in this entertaining disembodied laugh situation. That being said, it might need some more factors to limit it. Thoughts?

Honestly I'd just clarify in the text of the Hex feature that there are verbal and somatic components. When I got to the list of hexes at the end I skipped over the description at the top because I had already read the main Hex entry and so thought I knew how it worked. I didn't realize there were verbal and somatic components, and so thought it was a silent action. With the need to make noise it strikes me as quite reasonable.

[Dyscordia]

Hello! Just a lurker popping through with my two-cents!

I've been playing 5e for a long while now. Actually been playing since the starter set came out... :c

I fell in love with the Witch class and I'm currently playing it in my online game that we're streaming. Tonight is session 2, in fact! In our first session last week, we had two combat encounters and I didn't feel like I was more OP than anyone else in the party, but then again I've built my Witch to be more about support but dangling in the balance between white and black magic.

Even just reading the class on paper, it didn't seem unbalanced to me. Yes, it gets the Hexes at will, but they all require saves. Some saves are fairly easy to beat and some are harder than others. I only have used one so far, and that was a buff to a party member! I don't think that the Witch class itself is unbalanced as is, but that's just my opinion. In fact, I expect to probably do the least amount of damage in the party. Our current make up is: barbarian, bard, cleric, druid, fighter/paladin multiclass, and myself as the witch.

If anyone is interested in seeing the Witch in play, PM me for the link for last week's session! Twitch servers went down last week, so we had to stream via YouTube. But this week, barring any mishaps, we will be starting at 8:30 PM Eastern Standard on Twitch. Just look up "TheImgurianScrolls"!

Shameless advertising, I know. But since I am actively playing the Witch class, so you guys can watch if you'd like to see it in action! We're all still level 1, but 100 exp away from leveling up. I'm willing to share my character sheet as well if requested~!

[Scarce]

Honestly I'd just clarify in the text of the Hex feature that there are verbal and somatic components.

It's actually not that the hexes themselves require verbal or somatic components to cast (though I should consider including somatic components.) Cackling, that is, extending the duration of the hex by one round, requires a verbal component. This does mean that you're invisible for one round before you make a peep. That's all basically according to plan, but I will concede that this hex might need another type of debuff to keep it in line.



In fact, I expect to probably do the least amount of damage in the party.


So far, this has been exactly what I've experienced in playtesting. When you count the rounds spent buffing/hexing and the fact that many of your spells don't deal damage, your primary damage sources are your hexes and your familiar, which starts feeling a little underwhelming. We implemented the Insidious Spell feature to fix that exact problem, and hopefully to make it feel a little more rewarding to spend your action hexing.



Shameless advertising, I know. But since I am actively playing the Witch class, so you guys can watch if you'd like to see it in action! We're all still level 1, but 100 exp away from leveling up. I'm willing to share my character sheet as well if requested~!

Sounds interesting -- I'll give it a look. If you run into anything that you think might need to be tweaked, feel free to leave a comment on the witch page, and I'll be sure to address it. (Also, namedropping MFoV on stream is always welcome!)

[Flashy]

It's actually not that the hexes themselves require verbal or somatic components to cast (though I should consider including somatic components.) Cackling, that is, extending the duration of the hex by one round, requires a verbal component. This does mean that you're invisible for one round before you make a peep. That's all basically according to plan, but I will concede that this hex might need another type of debuff to keep it in line.

My point is that you don't need to cackle to extend the effect another round. Because the Go Unseen effect lasts until the end of your next turn you just use your action to reapply the effect during your next turn. As long as you don't have a competing action (which you usually won't) you can continue in this fashion indefinitely. Cackle is only necessary when you want to avoid a repeated saving throw.

[ShikomeKidoMi]

EDIT: One more note: In playtesting, the witch does feel right on par with 5e base classes, and a lot of this is due to the action economy. You can't Hex and cast a spell on the same turn, and you can't cackle and command your familiar to attack. And because most of the spell list, and indeed all the hexes, only deal with disabling enemies, not killing them outright, you get a sense that this class occupies a different area than most other classes.
Damage per round is not the be all and end all of power, as anyone who's read any of the 'god wizard' threads could tell you. Crowd control/debuff is a perfectly valid build for many existing classes, such as Bard or Wizard.

Also, you forgot to mention curses when talking about how too many features are piled on first level.

I've built my Witch to be more about support but dangling in the balance between white and black magic...In fact, I expect to probably do the least amount of damage in the party. Our current make up is: barbarian, bard, cleric, druid, fighter/paladin multiclass, and myself as the witch.

If your support build caster is doing the least amount of direct damage in the party that doesn't actually say anything about whether or not the class is unbalanced. Not only is direct damage not the only measure of power, you just admitted you weren't building for damage in the first place.

[Scarce]

Damage per round is not the be all and end all of power, as anyone who's read any of the 'god wizard' threads could tell you. Crowd control/debuff is a perfectly valid build for many existing classes, such as Bard or Wizard.


I agree completely. The witch is intended to occupy the role of a primarily single-target debuff class, which the edition does not currently have. The bard and wizard can slip into these roles for a very short time with the right spells and some cooperative saving throws, but this is solely what the witch focuses on.

The problem that we were running into was that the witch in playtesting didn't feel strong. For the player, there was little incentive to gamble on a hex if doing so might be a complete waste of your turn and didn't offer any substantial output in terms of damage. I think we've fixed this problem, and I'm very satisfied with where the witch stands in terms of debuff potential.



Also, you forgot to mention curses when talking about how too many features are piled on first level.


Yeah, I'd like to ask you about that. I don't have much interest in restructuring the class table entirely to swap the level for Hexes or Spellcasting (I mean, I'll do it if I'm convinced it's necessary, but I'm not there yet) but I am open to messing with the Curses, and even possibly downgrading them to the level of ribbons. From your comments, it seems that the Curses are the main thing that sets you over the edge in terms of level 1 power. After all, level one has only 3 features, which is one more than just about any other class.

What, in particular, about these strikes you as powerful? What would you modify, if you were put on the spot?

[Scarce]

My point is that you don't need to cackle to extend the effect another round. Because the Go Unseen effect lasts until the end of your next turn you just use your action to reapply the effect during your next turn. As long as you don't have a competing action (which you usually won't) you can continue in this fashion indefinitely. Cackle is only necessary when you want to avoid a repeated saving throw.

That is a very good point! (Our witch only got this hex properly last session, so we haven't seen it in action but one time.) I'll add a 1/minute limitation on its use.

[Markoff Chainey]

I applaud their effort but they either never playtest or have no sense of balance. I do not allow any of their materials in my game.

This.

<stupid over-generalized statement on my side, sorry!>

[Submortimer]

This.

They are hopeless when it comes to balance and I think it's on purpose: "Hey, look here, thats better than anything in the books" - and by "better" they mean balantly OP.

I'd like to know your metric for this. We spend an inordinate amount of time trying to make sure our work is NOT unbalanced, and whIle a few things will slip through the cracks it is most assuredly not on purpose.

Aside from that, it seems like you personally have some issues with how the core book itself is balanced, judging from your large list of fixes, so I'm not certain that I trust your judgement that our work is somehow "blatantly OP".

[jaappleton]

I'd like to know your metric for this. We spend an inordinate amount of time trying to make sure our work is NOT unbalanced, and whIle a few things will slip through the cracks it is most assuredly not on purpose.

Submortimer,

Hello. I admire the work you and the fellow members of MFoV do, and I overall enjoy the majority of your work. I especially like the theme stuff, like the Magiteck series.

However, I have to agree to an extent. Some of the stuff is fine. I really love a majority of the Monk stuff, and some of the Warlock stuff I quite like. Those are my favorite classes, so those are the ones I look at most.

But there are a few where its a bit eye popping. There's some outliers which are "Yeesh... I can't bring that to the table." Not all of them, but there are some outliers.

[Joe the Rat]

There seems to be some concern about there being too many features at 1st level. I basically agree, but it doesn't seem right, at least to me, to move hexes to second level. In my mind, interaction with Hexes is the core of the class. If anyone would like to suggest an alternative placement of these features, I'll certainly consider them.

Sort of like Smiting (Paladin 2), Invocations (Warlock 2), Ki abilities (Monk 2), Channel Divinity (Cleric 2), etc.? Level 1 is foundational features - things that anyone picking up the class for the first time needs to get a grip on first (martial, caster, can fight naked), or defining choices that set the character foundation (Gods, Patrons, and Origins). A lot of class classic or class-defining options come online at 2 (cunning action, ranger/paladin casting AND fight styles AND smiting for Daddy P, wizard specialty, and druid caster/beast focus, ACTION SURGE), with level three adding the subtypes if this was not already set.

Remember tier 1 play is short - you're looking at maybe a level a session to get to 3. This gives you time to learn the ropes. So spread those features out: basic play, main feature, archetype.

[Submortimer]

Submortimer,

Hello. I admire the work you and the fellow members of MFoV do, and I overall enjoy the majority of your work. I especially like the theme stuff, like the Magiteck series.

However, I have to agree to an extent. Some of the stuff is fine. I really love a majority of the Monk stuff, and some of the Warlock stuff I quite like. Those are my favorite classes, so those are the ones I look at most.

But there are a few where its a bit eye popping. There's some outliers which are "Yeesh... I can't bring that to the table." Not all of them, but there are some outliers.

Sure, I agree. I know of a few off the top of my head that got out the door with nowhere near enough testing beforehand.

Where I, personally, take umbrage here is the belief that we somehow unbalance our material on purpose. This is far from the truth, and even a casual read of the site will show you that our work is both A) constantly evolving to be better and more refined, and B) heavily scrutinized by our regulars. The number of post release edits on the Witch itself is pretty evident of that.

We take our job really seriously on the site. We want to and try to provide both interesting and balanced content, and we always accept constructive criticism, but I cannot abide blanket statements about the whole of our work that simply aren't true.

[jaappleton]

Sure, I agree. I know of a few off the top of my head that got out the door with nowhere near enough testing beforehand.

Where I, personally, take umbrage here is the belief that we somehow unbalance our material on purpose. This is far from the truth, and even a casual read of the site will show you that our work is both A) constantly evolving to be better and more refined, and B) heavily scrutinized by our regulars. The number of post release edits on the Witch itself is pretty evident of that.

We take our job really seriously on the site. We want to and try to provide both interesting and balanced content, and we always accept constructive criticism, but I cannot abide blanket statements about the whole of our work that simply aren't true.

I agree with that, and I really respect how you've handled yourself here. As someone that's done a few homebrews myself (mostly over at r/UnearthedArcana, and nowhere near the amount you and the rest of the crew have done) I totally understand where you're coming from.

People making blanket statements simply isn't fair. Honestly, it's a big insulting to the entire homebrew process.

[Ninja_Prawn]

People making blanket statements simply isn't fair.

Especially when there's five of us writing for the blog! I feel like every writer has a natural 'balance point' and at some point is going to need feedback to bring them into line with what other people are doing.

[Scarce]

Sort of like Smiting (Paladin 2), Invocations (Warlock 2), Ki abilities (Monk 2), Channel Divinity (Cleric 2), etc.? Level 1 is foundational features - things that anyone picking up the class for the first time needs to get a grip on first (martial, caster, can fight naked), or defining choices that set the character foundation (Gods, Patrons, and Origins). A lot of class classic or class-defining options come online at 2 (cunning action, ranger/paladin casting AND fight styles AND smiting for Daddy P, wizard specialty, and druid caster/beast focus, ACTION SURGE), with level three adding the subtypes if this was not already set.

Remember tier 1 play is short - you're looking at maybe a level a session to get to 3. This gives you time to learn the ropes. So spread those features out: basic play, main feature, archetype.

To get things back on topic: I think this raises a very interesting question about the witch. Should Hexes be moved to level 2 with Cackle?

Right now, I give it 3 features at level 1, largely because Hexes are very anemic at this level. Without the ability to cackle, each hex is a 1-round debuff that takes your action and requires a save. I did this so that players from level 1 can get acquainted with their hexes before considering the action economy of extending them with Cackle.

Second level already has Familiar, which I consider to be a rather substantial feature. Frankly, I think Hexes are basically a ribbon at level 1, and come into their own at level 2, but would it be wise to shift all the hex stuff to level 2 for the sake of presentation?

[MrStabby]

People making blanket statements simply isn't fair. Honestly, it's a big insulting to the entire homebrew process.

I agree. Not all homebrew is bad. Stopped clock, monkeys and typewriters etc..

For me the issue is that it is rarely, if ever, better than something you could homebrew yourself. Consider the witch. The player that wants to play the witch has an idea of what a witch is, the key features and how important each of them are. Taking someone else's homebrew won't reflect that - just the creator's views and balanced not according to your games but to what they are used to.

If you do your own homebrew not only are you likely to get something more balanced but you will also get something closer to what your players are actually keen to play.

[Sariel Vailo]

i thought it was ok

[Kane0]

Seems aight. Good team player kind of class. My only concern is that it might be a little... busy?

But you know what is completely, totally and utterly unforgivable? Not responding to my emailed contributions! #Slayer #IotSV

[Bahamut7]

I honestly thought it was odd you get your familiar at level 2...granted you can take the appropriate spell at level 1 but I feel like the class feature version should be level 1.

[ShikomeKidoMi]

Yeah, I'd like to ask you about that. I don't have much interest in restructuring the class table entirely to swap the level for Hexes or Spellcasting (I mean, I'll do it if I'm convinced it's necessary, but I'm not there yet) but I am open to messing with the Curses, and even possibly downgrading them to the level of ribbons. From your comments, it seems that the Curses are the main thing that sets you over the edge in terms of level 1 power. After all, level one has only 3 features, which is one more than just about any other class.

Have you considered just giving one Hex and no curse at level one, if you really want to start out with a hex? It'd be a lot more balanced with other classes. Alternately, one curse and no hexes, I'll get into my suggestions on if you want to go that route below.

What, in particular, about these strikes you as powerful? What would you modify, if you were put on the spot?
Well... let's break them down:
Hideous: Disadvantage on saves is pretty powerful in and of itself, even if only vs one effect. This is fairly strong for a level one ability. But you also get free single target Frighten once an an encounter on top of that, which doesn't even take an action and preempts the normal initiative order. At least it's only one target and only for one round. If this power was one or the other of the two effects it'd be a lot better [and of the two, Frighten is a lot more balanced]. You clearly know disadvantage on saves is powerful or you wouldn't have made it the classes' capstone feature.
Hollow: This is basically the same as a level one Warlock power, so it would be okay if you weren't getting two Hexes as well.
Possessed: This is probably fine (with the same caveat as Hollow), but you forgot to add in 'of a level you can cast', which might cause problems with some players.

[Dyscordia]

So far, this has been exactly what I've experienced in playtesting. When you count the rounds spent buffing/hexing and the fact that many of your spells don't deal damage, your primary damage sources are your hexes and your familiar, which starts feeling a little underwhelming. We implemented the Insidious Spell feature to fix that exact problem, and hopefully to make it feel a little more rewarding to spend your action hexing.


Yeaaaaaaah, about that! Tuesday was session 2 and all hell broke loose. In true Elder Scrolls fashion, we started session 1 as prisoners with nothing but our clothes. When we finally escaped the cave, we were ambushed again. My AC is a whopping 11 and I have 8 HP! I tried to use the Disorient hex on one of my pursuers but he managed to resist and one shot me after I spent 3 rounds just running and trying to live. But I managed to nat20 my death save on the very next turn and ran the hell away~

Witches don't get the fun stuff like Shield and Mage Armor, so they have to fully rely on armor. Which sucks at the moment because all of the other players are front-liners and called dibs on the salvageable armor so far. Which is fair! I'm not meant to be on the front line, but she's been singled out as a practitioner of witchcraft and for some reason people don't like that! But the point is, witches are squishy as hell but sooo fun to play so far. We've made it to level 2 (barely). My chosen hexes now are: Discord, Go Unseen (I'm debating between this and Mire or Obfuscate), and Ward. My chosen familiar is an owl named Weiss who's mostly going to help deliver heals to the party once she gets Cure Wounds at level 3 (flyby is amazing). I'm probably going to stick with the owl form indefinitely, but the will-o-wisp is pretty cool too. I had considered having a sprite, but I don't think they have much of a presence outside of Valenwood (if they even exist at all in the Elder Scrolls setting).

To make a very long story short, I'm thoroughly enjoying the class and my DM has made it VERY clear that the people of Tamriel despise witches and I should probably expect to be singled out on occasion. Which is what I planned/was hoping for (I'm a glutton for punishment, what can I say)! I do have to agree that Witch Bolt should've been included in the spell list, I mean come on~ It's in the name! And even though it isn't really thematic with the class, Mage Armor or even Shield would have been nice to have as well, but this just means I'm going to have to be extremely careful about how I approach combat situations. In character, she would 1000% choose flight over fight but I realize that that won't always be an option. Hopefully I'll just have better luck with my debuffs in the future!

I'll definitely keep you updated on how the witch is fairing in actual play! Our DM hinted at the possibility of fighting werewolves/direwolves in the upcoming session. :c

[Bahamut7]

I do have to agree that Witch Bolt should've been included in the spell list, I mean come on~ It's in the name! And even though it isn't really thematic with the class, Mage Armor or even Shield would have been nice to have as well, but this just means I'm going to have to be extremely careful about how I approach combat situations.

The creators confirmed that the reason it is not on there is because of the SRD, or OGL rules. If they included it, they would have had some problems. Your best bet is to ask your DM to include in your campaign for you and consider any of the options in the thread about improving the spell. Thats what I will do when I play the class next.

[MrStabby]

The creators confirmed that the reason it is not on there is because of the SRD, or OGL rules. If they included it, they would have had some problems. Your best bet is to ask your DM to include in your campaign for you and consider any of the options in the thread about improving the spell. Thats what I will do when I play the class next.

What about brass dragons, green hags and crawling claws?

[Bahamut7]

What about brass dragons, green hags and crawling claws?

Not sure, just saying what they told me.

[Submortimer]

Not sure, just saying what they told me.

Those things may, in fact, not be in the SRD. We've made mistakes with that before, and edits will be made.

[Submortimer]

But you know what is completely, totally and utterly unforgivable? Not responding to my emailed contributions! #Slayer #IotSV

I will inform Scarce that he is negligent in his duties, and will commence flogging until he spits out PDFs!

[Spellbreaker26]

Those things may, in fact, not be in the SRD. We've made mistakes with that before, and edits will be made.

Not to derail the thread but the Blue Mage class you guys came up with is really great.

As for the witch, it seems fairly decent. It's a bit weird that it uses Charisma as its spellcasting ability since there are so many other casters that do that (fluff-wise, witches seem like they're fighting warlocks for space) and from the lore it feels like more of a wisdom-based class.

[Scarce]

What about brass dragons, green hags and crawling claws?

I just checked -- Brass Dragons and Green Hags are, in fact, SRD, though crawling claws are not (they'll be removed promptly.)

Wizards should have included with the SRD a list of material from the core books that is not included. They removed things without discernible rhyme or reason, and it makes it very tough to make sure that things comply.

[Scarce]

Have you considered just giving one Hex and no curse at level one, if you really want to start out with a hex? It'd be a lot more balanced with other classes. Alternately, one curse and no hexes, I'll get into my suggestions on if you want to go that route below.


Thematically, the curse is the source of your power -- it needs to come at 1st level. I could move hexes up to level 2 (merging Cackle as a subfeature under Hex.) My thinking is that, because you can't extend a Hex's at level 1, they're basically one-round debuff cantrips which require a save -- more on the level of a ribbon. Moving it to level 2 gives you a familiar and hexes at the same time, which strikes me as probably being too much complexity and power introduced at once.



Well... let's break them down:
Hideous: Disadvantage on saves is pretty powerful in and of itself, even if only vs one effect. This is fairly strong for a level one ability. But you also get free single target Frighten once an an encounter on top of that, which doesn't even take an action and preempts the normal initiative order. At least it's only one target and only for one round. If this power was one or the other of the two effects it'd be a lot better [and of the two, Frighten is a lot more balanced]. You clearly know disadvantage on saves is powerful or you wouldn't have made it the classes' capstone feature.


I've been considering messing with this feature, actually. Originally, I had it planned as something to synchronize with the Evil Eye hex to make a kind of preferred debuff approach for this class, but you're right that it is probably too powerful. Removing the built-in disadvantage is probably the right solution to this one.



Hollow: This is basically the same as a level one Warlock power, so it would be okay if you weren't getting two Hexes as well.


Again, I maintain that the hexes are less powerful than cantrips at this level, since the effects last only for one round, deal no damage, and require a save. This might simply be a point to disagree on.



Possessed: This is probably fine (with the same caveat as Hollow), but you forgot to add in 'of a level you can cast', which might cause problems with some players.

That's a very good note! I'll add that right away. I might also remove spells from a few of these levels to keep this in line with the others -- free spell known for this class has been pretty potent in playtesting.

[Scarce]

And even though it isn't really thematic with the class, Mage Armor or even Shield would have been nice to have as well, but this just means I'm going to have to be extremely careful about how I approach combat situations.

Starting at 2nd level, you can hide behind your familiar. Also, you can get light armor, so do that at first opportunity.

[Flashy]

Again, I maintain that the hexes are less powerful than cantrips at this level, since the effects last only for one round, deal no damage, and require a save. This might simply be a point to disagree on.

They patently aren't though. Some of them are straight ports of Warlock invocations which allow you to cast leveled spells at will without the one turn limit (Disguise). Duplicity is a 50% miss chance for the next round at the cost of your action. Tremors has a high chance to grant your entire party advantage on melee attack rolls against every hostile within 30 ft of you until the hostile creature acts (more powerful if your table uses side initiative).

Even leaving those aside, a good point of comparison for Hex debuff against standard cantrip would probably be Evil Eye vs. Viscious Mockery. Viscious Mockery is d4 damage and disadvantage on a single attack roll. Evil Eye is disadvantage on all ability checks, all attack rolls, and the inability to move closer to the party. I'm not particularly convinced by the argument that the Evil Eye is really any weaker.

I also disagree with the assertion that the hexes can't do damage. Bleeding absolutely does inflict damage. It's not on the Witch's turn, but against tough enemies it's very plausibly 2d8 extra even in a normally sized party. As you get into the range of groups with six or seven PCs it starts to balloon to a devastating degree.

[Scarce]

They patently aren't though. Some of them are straight ports of Warlock invocations which allow you to cast leveled spells at will without the one turn limit (Disguise). Duplicity is a 50% miss chance for the next round at the cost of your action.

I think we can agree that those effects which can be replicated by spells are exploration and interaction features -- none of them are particularly offensive, even if they can play a role in combat. The key question for balance of 1st level features are those which provide a lot of damage of defense (making the highly lethal 1st level marginally less so) and those which provide excellent 1 level dips for other classes. Because of the limitations here, it doesn't provide a particularly attractive dip for power gamers, nor should these make 1st level remarkably easier.



I also disagree with the assertion that the hexes can't do damage. Bleeding absolutely does inflict damage. It's not on the Witch's turn, but against tough enemies it's very plausibly 2d8 extra even in a normally sized party. As you get into the range of groups with six or seven PCs it starts to balloon to a devastating degree.

Yes, this is the only Hex option with the potential to deal damage. At 1st level, if the target fails a Con save and your allies land hits, you can deal an additional 1d8 damage with each attack. If the target succeeds its save or none of your allies hit, you've wasted your turn. The added level of uncertainty makes this a lot more precarious, and brings it down to where a cantrip generally is.

[Ziegander]

Now, I haven't even read the class, but I gather we've got a full caster with hexes, and curses that lacks offensive punch with their spell list. People are taking issue with the hexes and curses being maybe too much being added on top of spells.

Again, I haven't read the class, but why not approach the design, and target power level, by building a reverse Bard. Instead of party buffs and inspiration, the Witch gets enemy rebuffs and hexes/curses. A hex and a curses are thematically the same thing, so I'm not sure why it's important that the Witch have two ability tracks dedicated to the same theme that operate differently. Also, the bard doesn't get two tracks of party support options either, so, if we're using that as our template, adding another to the Witch seems not only out of place but over-doing it before mechanics are even considered.

So, if it's reasonable for a Bard to spend a swift action to give an ally a floating d6 to one attack, check, or saving throw, then theoretically a Witch should be able to spend a swift action to put bad juju on an enemy and then use her reaction any time within the next minute to roll a d6 and subtract the result from their d20 roll whenever that creature makes an attack roll, check, or save. Steps on the Lore Bard a little, but it's in-theme and slightly worse since you have to set it up and then activate it.

Subclasses could then offer more ways to use the "Hex dice," and instead of Song of Rest the Witch should have some other scaling ability that is a passive, minor hassle to enemies. Maybe something like... Whenever a creature hostile to you and within 30ft of you would regain hit points, reduce the number of hit points it would regain by your proficiency bonus. Or something similar.

[Kane0]

If I were to build a Witch class I'd make it an Int based half caster built around one core ability of hexing/cursing and a side of warlockish invocations to modify that and provide other abilities.

But that would probably impede on the Int based Half caster Gish class I'd make too... though it could be a subclass to kill two stones with one bird...

[Ninja_Prawn]

I'm not sure why it's important that the Witch have two ability tracks dedicated to the same theme that operate differently.

The 'curses' in this class are not curses that the Witch creates. They're the source of the Witch's power: they get cursed, which makes them hideous, but also magical. It's kind of like a pact boon, thematically.

Another thing to bear in mind is the extremely limited number of spells known. The intention, if I'm not mistaken (I had zero involvement in this class), is that the 'standard round' for a Witch is Hex + Cackle, and actual spellcasting is only for emergencies. You might even be able to cut it to half-casting with no change to the 'feel'...

[Strill]

My first impression from looking over this class is that it has an absurd number of features, which completely shatters the encounters per day guidelines because they have so many more resources than other classes. D&D is a game of resource management. The game recommends 6-8 encounters per day because it's meant to drain the party's spells and HP, putting them in a tense situation where they don't know whether they can afford to use their powerful spells because they might need them for another harder encounter. The Witch, however, has so many resources, many of them at-will, that it's impossible to drain them all, destroying all possibility of tension.

Take the Wizard for contrast. What features does a Wizard have, which give them more resources per day?


d6 Hit Die
Full Spellcasting
Arcane Recovery
Subclass (sometimes)


And that's it. Once they're out of those things, they're back to spamming cantrips the rest of the day. Now look at the Witch. What does a Witch get to extend their resources per day?


d8 Hit Die
Full Spellcasting
Witch's Curse
Hexes
Grand Hexes
All four subclass abilities
Potions
Combat Familiar
Improved Familiar
Insidious Spell


That's an absolutely enormous number of resources! And no, your argument that Witches have few to no damaging abilities is irrelevant. There's all sorts of powerful combat spells in there. My Wizard would love to cast Fog Cloud at will, and your "Slumber" hex is at least as good as the 2nd-level Blindness/Deafness spell!

In other words, I think you should either cut back on some of these features, charge spell slots for some of them, put a limit on how many times they can be used, or lower the number of spell slots the Witch gets.


The 'curses' in this class are not curses that the Witch creates. They're the source of the Witch's power: they get cursed, which makes them hideous, but also magical. It's kind of like a pact boon, thematically.

Another thing to bear in mind is the extremely limited number of spells known. The intention, if I'm not mistaken (I had zero involvement in this class), is that the 'standard round' for a Witch is Hex + Cackle, and actual spellcasting is only for emergencies. You might even be able to cut it to half-casting with no change to the 'feel'...

Limited spells known? They get 14 of their choice, 10 from their Craft, and possibly more from their Curse or from various Hexes. That's more than the Bard.

Not to derail the thread but the Blue Mage class you guys came up with is really great.

As for the witch, it seems fairly decent. It's a bit weird that it uses Charisma as its spellcasting ability since there are so many other casters that do that (fluff-wise, witches seem like they're fighting warlocks for space) and from the lore it feels like more of a wisdom-based class.

Wisdom-based casters draw power from their ability to sense the subtle presence of a deity, and open a channel through which that deity empowers them. That doesn't sound like the Witch.

[MrStabby]

I think the bigger problem is the class's focus on debuffing an enemy. Sure a lot of classes get to do it but no classes really focus on it, for a good reason.

Spells like Hex stipulate that for the bonus damage to take place the attack must come from the caster of the spell - an important feature to stop the effectiveness of the spell scaling astronomically with party size.

Debuffing is not only very powerful but more importantly it is gamebreakingly asymmetric. Of course every class should have a chance to shine but the game goes wrong when encounters are so dominated by a single ability that they no longer are a challenge. Abilities such as the cleric's turn undead ability restrict the DM - in a campaign they should probably not have too many encounters based on large numbers of low wisdom save undead - especially low level and not without other non undead support. This restriction isn't really a problem - it is a narrow restriction and there is little harm breaking it on occasion.

A class based on debuffing however puts the DM in a similar position but instead of invalidating encounters based on a small subset of the monster manual or specific homebrewed creatures the class overwhelmingly dominates encounters based on smaller numbers of more powerful enemies. This will have a much more serious effect on the game - especially as the most important climactic fights will usually involve some kind of iconic, high level bad guy.

Debuffing just doesn't work well as a theme for a class over a campaign - or at least not work well. I built and tested my own witch class that had a similar focus on curses and learned this the hard way. When I see classes like this published it just looks like the authors have not tested it in a long campaign and have not done much more than run some numbers based on their experience of "typical" parties if at all.

[Strill]

Debuffing is not only very powerful but more importantly it is gamebreakingly asymmetric. Of course every class should have a chance to shine but the game goes wrong when encounters are so dominated by a single ability that they no longer are a challenge.

I disagree. Encounters being dominated by a single ability is par for the course in D&D. That's just what spellcasters do. Almost any spell a god-wizard casts is going to trivialize an encounter. The challenge is that you have limited spell slots, and you'll eventually run out of those spells. I think the problem with the Witch is that it has so many resources that it can never run out.

[MrStabby]

I disagree. Encounters being dominated by a single ability is par for the course in D&D. That's just what spellcasters do. Almost any spell a god-wizard casts is going to trivialize an encounter. The challenge is that you have limited spell slots, and you'll eventually run out of those spells. I think the problem with the Witch is that it has so many resources that it can never run out.

OK sure, I should probably have included the word "disproportionately" in my description.

[Scarce]

d6 Hit Die
Full Spellcasting
Arcane Recovery
Subclass (sometimes)


And that's it. Once they're out of those things, they're back to spamming cantrips the rest of the day. Now look at the Witch. What does a Witch get to extend their resources per day?


d8 Hit Die
Full Spellcasting
Witch's Curse
Hexes
Grand Hexes
All four subclass abilities
Potions
Combat Familiar
Improved Familiar
Insidious Spell



I think you're being unfair here. The wizard is literally the most scant class in the entire book. Most of its features are just the fact that they have awesome spells. By contrast, the spells that the witch gets are very much on the same level as a bard.

Also, if the sole way to judge a class's power is the number of features, isn't the bard broken? It has tons of features!


d8 hit die and light armor
full spellcasting
bardic inspiration
expertise
bardic songs
magical secrets
countercharm
font of inspiration
subclasses and stuff




In other words, I think you should either cut back on some of these features, charge spell slots for some of them, put a limit on how many times they can be used, or lower the number of spell slots the Witch gets.


Now, I might be open to reducing the witch's spell slots or eliminating some of its spells to ensure that spell use isn't pushing the class to be too powerful. I'm not interested in limiting Hexes, however, since they're intended to be at-will and largely regulated by not dealing damage.

[Scarce]

I disagree. Encounters being dominated by a single ability is par for the course in D&D. That's just what spellcasters do. Almost any spell a god-wizard casts is going to trivialize an encounter. The challenge is that you have limited spell slots, and you'll eventually run out of those spells. I think the problem with the Witch is that it has so many resources that it can never run out.

See, I see what you're getting at: Hexes don't run out. From a top-down perspective, hexes are supposed to be constantly available, predominately single-target, deal no damage, and can hinder, but not outright disable a target. I intended this to be somewhat different from other things released so far, so comparisons to other classes will probably fail, by design.

If a particular hex is too powerful as written (or doesn't fit these goals), please let me know. We've been playtesting the witch for some time, but you can't select all of the hexes, so we haven't seen a few of them in action, and I'm always open to tweaking them.

[Strill]

Also, if the sole way to judge a class's power is the number of features, isn't the bard broken? It has tons of features!


d8 hit die and light armor
full spellcasting
bardic inspiration
expertise
bardic songs
magical secrets
countercharm
font of inspiration
subclasses and stuff

I'm not counting number of features. I'm counting the resources the class gets. As I said before, D&D is about resource management. Each fight is consuming some of your spells, some of your hp, some of your hit dice. In order to win, you have to make sure your resources last up to the final fight of the day. The features I listed were those which help you stave off the attrition.

You're listing things that don't give you extra resources. Expertise, for example, doesn't give you extra resources. When you're on your 7th fight of the day, Expertise is not going to be the trump card that helps you pull through. Likewise, Magical Secrets does not give you any more resources, only more versatility. Barely any of the subclass abilities even give you more resources, because they also consume your Bardic Inspiration.


I think you're being unfair here. The wizard is literally the most scant class in the entire book. Most of its features are just the fact that they have awesome spells. By contrast, the spells that the witch gets are very much on the same level as a bard. I see Hold Person, Invisibility, Hypnotic Pattern, Confusion, Dominate Person, Mass Suggestion, Fog Cloud. All top-tier spells.

I also disagree that the Wizard is the most scant class in the book. The Sorcerer is at least as scant as the Wizard. It may have metamagic, but it has to trade away Arcane Recovery in exchange for Sorcery points to use that metamagic. Depending on how much you value Sorcery Points, the Sorcerer is either on-par with the Wizard, or behind in resources. The same goes for the Cleric too. The Cleric gets full spellcasting just like the others, and rather than Sorcery Points or Arcane Recovery, it gets Channel Divinity. Same goes for the Druid as well. They get full spell slot progression, plus either Natural Recovery or Combat Wild Shape.

Do you see the pattern? Each full caster gets:


Spell slot progression
Auxilliary resource mechanic (Arcane Recovery, Channel Divinity, Sorcery Points, Natural Recovery, Combat Wild Shape, Bardic Inspiration)
Subclass abilities


And that is largely the extent of their resources. Once they run out of those, they're back to spamming cantrips. The rest of their kits consists of out-of-combat abilities, or abilities that have little to no effect on the attrition race.


See, I see what you're getting at: Hexes don't run out. From a top-down perspective, hexes are supposed to be constantly available, predominately single-target, deal no damage, and can hinder, but not outright disable a target. I intended this to be somewhat different from other things released so far, so comparisons to other classes will probably fail, by design.

Is that supposed to lessen the significance of these abilities, in my mind? Because hindering an opponent is already the optimal combat strategy for a God Wizard. In fact, Treantmonk recommends using Minor Illusion as your primary combat cantrip, just to give the opponent Disadvantage on one attack. In other words, a single disadvanatage is worth more than the meager damage a Wizard would otherwise do. So I don't see these abilities as being any less powerful just because they don't do damage.



Now, I might be open to reducing the witch's spell slots or eliminating some of its spells to ensure that spell use isn't pushing the class to be too powerful. I'm not interested in limiting Hexes, however, since they're intended to be at-will and largely regulated by not dealing damage. For example, if potions you brewed consumed spell slots, then that feature wouldn't bother me at all.

[Scarce]

Do you see the pattern? Each full caster gets:


Spell slot progression
Auxilliary resource mechanic (Arcane Recovery, Channel Divinity, Sorcery Points, Natural Recovery, Combat Wild Shape, Bardic Inspiration)
Subclass abilities


And that is largely the extent of their resources. Once they run out of those, they're back to spamming cantrips. The rest of their kits consists of out-of-combat abilities, or abilities that have little to no effect on the attrition race.


The principle difference here is that I decided to substitute the auxiliary resource mechanic with something that runs persistently and uses a substantial amount of your action economy. Like I said, this isn't accidental or because I misunderstand the functionality of the base casters in this edition, but because I wanted the witch to play differently and occupy a different role. If the Hexes are appropriately powered, this should be an acceptable deviation from normal style.

Now, I'll concede that I could stand to revise the potions mechanic or the number of spell slots each day in order to bring the resources which can be brought to bear to be on par with other full spellcasters. It's also been a challenge getting the Familiar to work the way I intend it to. I'll work on that, and take into account any suggestions you have on the matter.

Also, you mention a handful of spells (Hold Person and Fog Cloud among them) which are considered top-tier. I'm open to pulling a few of these from the spell list, but I also have another suggestion you might think acceptable for this class: merging the Concentration of Hexes and Spells into a single channel. If using a Hex or a powerful spell are mutually-exclusive, would that considerably mitigate some of the power problems?



Is that supposed to lessen the significance of these abilities, in my mind? Because hindering an opponent is already the optimal combat strategy for a God Wizard. In fact, Treantmonk recommends using Minor Illusion as your primary combat cantrip, just to give the opponent Disadvantage on one attack. In other words, a single disadvanatage is worth more than the meager damage a Wizard would otherwise do. So I don't see these abilities as being any less powerful just because they don't do damage.


I haven't read Treantmonk since my days playing 3.5, but I think we're in the same territory. Disadvantage on one enemy attack without expending a resource is basically where I like the witch cantrips to be (though, it should be stated that none of my hexes directly apply disadvantage, with the exception of Agony, which has a 50% failure rate.)

I don't intend to convince you that Hexes are not powerful -- in fact, they're the cornerstone of the class. But my intent with the Hexes was to provide a small number of constantly-available choices, rather than an expendable resource.

On an side-note, it's refreshing hearing your thoughts on how this class should be balanced, specifically the focus on resource-management. I built much of its groundwork on a round-by-round question of action economy and choices available to the player, with the intent of making playing a witch fun before anything else. This is why a lot of the mechanics at play are inexhaustible and fighting for the bonus action; the focus was more in what you can bring to bear on a given turn.

[Strill]

I just noticed that all of the archetype perks are combat abilities - none of them are exploration or social-based. PHB archetypes, as a rule, make sure to have a mix of the three pillars, or to have abilities that are versatile enough to be used in multiple pillars. For example, the Fey Pact Warlock's Fey Presence is useful in both Combat and Social. The Shadow Monk's Shadow Step is good in both combat and exploration. The Berserker Barbarian gets Intimidating Presence, which is good in both combat and social.


The principle difference here is that I decided to substitute the auxiliary resource mechanic with something that runs persistently and uses a substantial amount of your action economy. Like I said, this isn't accidental or because I misunderstand the functionality of the base casters in this edition, but because I wanted the witch to play differently and occupy a different role. If the Hexes are appropriately powered, this should be an acceptable deviation from normal style.
If it were just that, I wouldn't have an issue. However, there's also the Curse, the Cauldron, and the Familiar. The archetypes are also debatably stronger than most other classes' archetypes. All of these things also give you more resources.

I think it's helpful here to compare how the Warlock is balanced. My impression of Warlock balance is this: If you convert a warlock's spells into spell points, assuming 2-3 short rests per day, they come out pretty close to other spellcasters, if not slightly ahead. So it's obvious that the developers were looking to give Warlocks a similar amount of spell power compared to other classes. However, that doesn't tell the whole story. A Warlock is obviously going to use some of those spell slots inefficiently because they have less freedom to pick the right tool for the right job. I believe that this inefficiency is what allows the developers leeway to give Warlocks invocations, on top of their spellcasting. Then there's the fact that if the party ever goes one too many fights without a short rest, the Warlock is out of luck and can't contribute. I believe that the Warlock's short-rest spell regeneration is what allows them to have high at-will DPR.

So from this we can imagine how other spellcasters would be, who had only half of a Warlock's restrictions:


If you had a class that regenerated spells on a short rest, but was not restricted to the same slot level (i.e. a full-caster version of the monk), it would necessarily have high at-will DPR.
If you had a hypothetical class that regenerated spells on a long rest, that were all the same slot level, this class would have low at-will DPR, but would have an invocation system, or some other set of bonus features over and above what might be expected for a normal spellcaster.


Therefore, I think that if the Witch recovered spell slots on a short rest rather than a long rest, it would be better balanced around the Hex mechanic, and you could possibly even make Hexes stronger.


Now, I'll concede that I could stand to revise the potions mechanic or the number of spell slots each day in order to bring the resources which can be brought to bear to be on par with other full spellcasters. It's also been a challenge getting the Familiar to work the way I intend it to. I'll work on that, and take into account any suggestions you have on the matter.


Also, you mention a handful of spells (Hold Person and Fog Cloud among them) which are considered top-tier. I'm open to pulling a few of these from the spell list, but I also have another suggestion you might think acceptable for this class: merging the Concentration of Hexes and Spells into a single channel. If using a Hex or a powerful spell are mutually-exclusive, would that considerably mitigate some of the power problems?

I'm honestly not against the Witch having interesting and powerful spell choices, and I think that removing spell options still doesn't address the core issue of having too many resources to expend. Besides, having full spellcasting but no good spells to spend it on is a bait-and-switch for the player. Shared Concentration is highly dependent on the spell list, and I don't think I've read through it enough to make any conclusions about it, but I can say that it would often leave the Witch with little to do, since all your hexes are blocked off while concentrating on something else. That kind of defeats the concept of the class doesn't it?

If you're so willing to remove all the powerful spell choices from the class, wouldn't it be simpler to just lower spell slot progression instead?