Stinking Cloud: The Best Escape Spell?

[rudy]

Forgive me if there is already a thread about this; I could not find one.

So, 'Stinking Cloud' affects creatures that are within it at the start of their turn. Meaning that a caster that was surrounded (well, not completely surrounded, but flanked), could cast it centered on themselves, making the area heavily obscured. Meaning that they could then move out of the area without triggering opportunity attacks, leaving their flankers to try to save against it on their next turn.

RAW? RAI?

[BiPolar]

Forgive me if there is already a thread about this; I could not find one.

So, 'Stinking Cloud' affects creatures that are within it at the start of their turn. Meaning that a caster that was surrounded (well, not completely surrounded, but flanked), could cast it centered on themselves, making the area heavily obscured. Meaning that they could then move out of the area without triggering opportunity attacks, leaving their flankers to try to save against it on their next turn.

RAW? RAI?

Why do you think you wouldn't trigger an OA? Heavily Obscured just gives everybody the Blinded condition, which would generate Disadvantage on attacks. So you would still trigger the OA and they'd get attacks at Disadvantage against you.

[rudy]

Why do you think you wouldn't trigger an OA? Heavily Obscured just gives everybody the Blinded condition, which would generate Disadvantage on attacks. So you would still trigger the OA and they'd get attacks at Disadvantage against you.

Thought of that, but no. An opportunity attack is triggered against an enemy you can see. PH. pg 195. "You can make an opportunity attack when a hostile creature you can see moves out of your reach."

Best escape spell =D

[Cybren]

Fog cloud is probably better in that if you just want to escape, it's two levels cheaper.

[BiPolar]

Thought of that, but no. An opportunity attack is triggered against an enemy you can see. PH. pg 195. "You can make an opportunity attack when a hostile creature you can see moves out of your reach."

Best escape spell =D

Nice! That's super cool...and see below for fog cloud and lower cost :) But I may have to try something like this if my bard has to get away without using Dimension Door!

[rudy]

The fog cloud is a good point; ultimately it will depend on what level you are playing at, and the availability of spells, and the number of enemies that you would be tagging with stinking cloud, etc.

Fog cloud is certainly a lower spell cost, but stinking cloud is better action economy, in that it allows the escape while at the same time possibly denying actions to your foes on their next turn.

[DivisibleByZero]

I would personally rule that instead of a Con save vs your spell save DC, the caster would need to make a DC10 Con save. Stinking Cloud has a verbal component. The moment he finishes casting the spell, the cloud exists. It'd make him roll the DC10 Con save to hold his breath after finishing the casting, but before he inhales the cloud. If he doesn't get out of the cloud on that turn, he makes the save as per normal.

[rudy]

That's a bit of an arbitrary rule, but not unreasonable.

I actually came up with this idea when planning for my Yuan-Ti caster, which opens up a whole new line of fun with stinking cloud, since they are immune to poison.

[MrMcBobb]

I actually came up with this idea when planning for my Yuan-Ti caster, which opens up a whole new line of fun with stinking cloud, since they are immune to poison.

Ravi Asurasti the Great Unwashed One!

Just potters about in a stinking cloud the whole time and never washes his armpits. Stinky snake bastard.

[BiPolar]

That's a bit of an arbitrary rule, but not unreasonable.

I actually came up with this idea when planning for my Yuan-Ti caster, which opens up a whole new line of fun with stinking cloud, since they are immune to poison.

Yeah, I could go either way on that ruling. RAW, no damage unless you Start OR Finish your turn in it - which you aren't doing. However, using it as an escape mechanism does mean it's there so you can get away and that requires your presence in the cloud. But yes, Yuan-Ti FTW.

[sir_argo]

I guess I'm going to cause some contention.

The spell isn't about inhaling the gas. It's about smelling the gas. I believe that's why the description doesn't provide for holding your breath, only that you are a creature that needs to breathe. It's not about poison in your lungs, it's about a horrible odor in your nose. Some will argue that you should be able to take a free hand and pinch your nostrils closed, but the D&D 5e game mechanics are designed for play-ability, not to adhere to the laws of physics. Why can I drink a 16oz flagon of ale during combat as a free action before I smack you with the mug, but if I want to drink a 1oz potion it takes my full action? Why? Because drinking a flagon of ale during combat has no effect on the combat, but drinking a potion is as effective as casting a spell. It's a gameplay mechanic. Similarly, Stinking Cloud does not give you the ability to pinch your nose to avoid the effects. As a gameplay mechanic, if you cast it around yourself, you'll be effected.

[LudicSavant]

Sleet Storm also only makes people take saves at the start of their turn or upon entering, so you can cast it on yourself and walk out. Only thing that takes effect immediately is the difficult terrain.

[wilhelmdubdub]

Warforged?

[rudy]

It's a gameplay mechanic. Similarly, Stinking Cloud does not give you the ability to pinch your nose to avoid the effects. As a gameplay mechanic, if you cast it around yourself, you'll be effected.

I'm confused. If you're arguing gameplay mechanics, then the mechanics of the spell, unambiguously, allow you to cast the spell and walk out without being affected. If you argue that this is unreasonable (which is a position I have some sympathy for), then that is an argument from realism, not gameplay mechanics. To cite your example, it's no more "unreasonable" to cast the spell and walk out, than to quaff the flagon of ale in combat.

[NNescio]

I'm confused. If you're arguing gameplay mechanics, then the mechanics of the spell, unambiguously, allow you to cast the spell and walk out without being affected. If you argue that this is unreasonable (which is a position I have some sympathy for), then that is an argument from realism, not gameplay mechanics. To cite your example, it's no more "unreasonable" to cast the spell and walk out, than to quaff the flagon of ale in combat.

Or taking out an item stashed in god-knows-where at the bottom of your backpack with just a free object interaction.

...yeah, as DM I'd allow Stinking Cloud, Sleet Storm and other "start-of-turn BFC/CC/Aoe damage" spells/effects to be used this way, definitely. Fair's fair at the table, as there are plenty of monsters with similar annoying effects as well, and monsters with Legendary Action movement options can also just walk out off-turn.

[BiPolar]

I'm confused. If you're arguing gameplay mechanics, then the mechanics of the spell, unambiguously, allow you to cast the spell and walk out without being affected. If you argue that this is unreasonable (which is a position I have some sympathy for), then that is an argument from realism, not gameplay mechanics. To cite your example, it's no more "unreasonable" to cast the spell and walk out, than to quaff the flagon of ale in combat.

Actually, I think the problem is if you go by pure mechanics, the spell effects do NOT begin until the start of a creature's turn; meaning that the enemy you're hoping to blind won't be blinded when you leave your position, and you'd trigger the OA.

[NNescio]

Actually, I think the problem is if you go by pure mechanics, the spell effects do NOT begin until the start of a creature's turn; meaning that the enemy you're hoping to blind won't be blinded when you leave your position, and you'd trigger the OA.

Only the "lose an action" part of the spell is contingent on the enemy failing his saving throw at the start of his turn.

Heavy Obscurement immediately comes into effect the moment the spell is cast.

[Cybren]

Actually, I think the problem is if you go by pure mechanics, the spell effects do NOT begin until the start of a creature's turn; meaning that the enemy you're hoping to blind won't be blinded when you leave your position, and you'd trigger the OA.

The cloud still provides heavy obscurement, thus, creatures inside are still treated as having the blinded condition

[BiPolar]

Only the "lose an action" part of the spell is contingent on the enemy failing his saving throw at the start of his turn.

Heavy Obscurement immediately comes into effect the moment the spell is cast.


The cloud still provides heavy obscurement, thus, creatures inside are still treated as having the blinded condition

D'oh! You're right - although the technicality of having blinded condition is now "effectively blinded'. Thanks Errata?!

Anywho, this does seem like a good use, although it's a big spell to drop just to avoid an OA. Seems there better options, but if you're surrounded it's a neat idea.

[Maxilian]

For escape, i would actually prefer Phantom Steed (the steed will be the one taking the OA and it won't dissapear for 1 whole minute, so still got 10 rounds to move around with a speed of 100)

[Cybren]

D'oh! You're right - although the technicality of having blinded condition is now "effectively blinded'. Thanks Errata?!

Anywho, this does seem like a good use, although it's a big spell to drop just to avoid an OA. Seems there better options, but if you're surrounded it's a neat idea.

The weirdness of this interaction is one of the reasons i resent a 6 second turn... It's claimed that each turn overlaps with each other turn, but in practice the wizard casts a spell, finishes casting the spell, and then jogs out of the spells area, with everyone just standing and saying "yup that's their turn can't do nothin bout it"

[NNescio]

For escape, i would actually prefer Phantom Steed (the steed will be the one taking the OA and it won't dissapear for 1 whole minute, so still got 10 rounds to move around with a speed of 100)

You need to spend half your move to mount it, you may provoke OA mounting it puts you out of reach, and any creatures it draws OA from can choose to hit you with the OA instead.


Controlling a Mount

[...] if the mount provokes an opportunity attack while you're on it, the attacker can target you or the mount.


Also, spell requires one whole minute(!) to cast. If you have one minute to cast a spell in the middle of combat for some reason, you can cast LTH and roll the fight.

[Maxilian]

You need to spend half your move to mount it, you may provoke OA mounting it puts you out of reach, and any creatures it draws OA from can choose to hit you with the OA instead.


Also, spell requires one whole minute(!) to cast. If you have one minute to cast a spell in the middle of combat for some reason, you can cast LTH and roll the fight.

Ty for the info, did not remenbered that OA rule and yes, my bad, i forgot the casting time was that long.

[NNescio]

The weirdness of this interaction is one of the reasons i resent a 6 second turn... It's claimed that each turn overlaps with each other turn, but in practice the wizard casts a spell, finishes casting the spell, and then jogs out of the spells area, with everyone just standing and saying "yup that's their turn can't do nothin bout it"

I'd like to flavor this as the Wizard dropping a spell near him and running out (or rolling, if he has Acrobatics) of the rapidly-expanding cloud while everyone else becomes too distracted by the noxious fumes to take hits at him.

Giant Fart spell, indeed.

[BiPolar]

I'd like to flavor this as the Wizard dropping a spell near him and running out (or rolling, if he has Acrobatics) of the rapidly-expanding cloud while everyone else becomes too distracted by the noxious fumes to take hits at him.

Giant Fart spell, indeed.

I'm sorry, did we just make The Spleen?

[Specter]

Whatever happened to Misty Step? 2nd-level, bonus action, cast it, cast a cantrip to their face and move. If they don't dash, they don't get you, and if they do, they'll usually do nothing else.

[Maxilian]

Whatever happened to Misty Step? 2nd-level, bonus action, cast it, cast a cantrip to their face and move. If they don't dash, they don't get you, and if they do, they'll usually do nothing else.

The OP means it as its a way to evade OA and also do damage to the enemy

[NNescio]

Whatever happened to Misty Step? 2nd-level, bonus action, cast it, cast a cantrip to their face and move. If they don't dash, they don't get you, and if they do, they'll usually do nothing else.

Misty Step just lets you escape and you can only cast a cantrip with the action remaining.

Dropping a Stinking Cloud (or Sleet Storm, or even a Fog Cloud) lets you BFC an entire group of enemies AND escape.

[sir_argo]

I'm confused. If you're arguing gameplay mechanics, then the mechanics of the spell, unambiguously, allow you to cast the spell and walk out without being affected. If you argue that this is unreasonable (which is a position I have some sympathy for), then that is an argument from realism, not gameplay mechanics. To cite your example, it's no more "unreasonable" to cast the spell and walk out, than to quaff the flagon of ale in combat.

You are right. I thought that it was like so many other spells that say start your turn or first time you enter but I re-read it, and it does not have the later language.

Never say I won't admit when I'm wrong.

[Cybren]

I'd like to flavor this as the Wizard dropping a spell near him and running out (or rolling, if he has Acrobatics) of the rapidly-expanding cloud while everyone else becomes too distracted by the noxious fumes to take hits at him.

Giant Fart spell, indeed.

You can flavor it that way but it's not what's happening as per the rules. If the caster is moving before finishing casting the spell, the other creatures aren't blinded. It's nothing to do with the smell, because it works with fog cloud as well, and if the wizard is trying to avoid getting hit with OAs, they're disengaging, not casting

[dnd2016]

Do my archer allies also suffer from blind condition when attacking them from a distance?

[mcsillas]

Why do you think you wouldn't trigger an OA? Heavily Obscured just gives everybody the Blinded condition, which would generate Disadvantage on attacks. So you would still trigger the OA and they'd get attacks at Disadvantage against you.

In this scenario, there would be no opportunity attack since no one can see (blinded condition) while being located in or when looking into a heavily obscured area. Also, when creatures are attacking one another in a heavily obscured area, advantage and disadvantage cancel out, causing no penalty to attack. This works the same if you are attacking a creature outside of a heavily obscured area while being located in it, or when a heavily obscured area is between the two combatants. The only exception being when located in natural darkness, viewing something in an illuminated area.

http://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/02/02/blind-fog/
https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/725174854455050240
http://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/03/11/cloud-of-darkness-advantage-and-disadvantage/
http://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/05/30/i-ranged-attack-enemy-in-a-cloud-from-outside-cloud-advantage-or-disadvantage/

[FabulousFizban]

The best spell is the one that targets the enemy's weakest save. That will vary from case to case.

Diversify