I've removed the Identify spell and you should too!

[BigONotation]

Just like the title says, I've removed the Identify spell and the ability to spend a Short Rest with a magic item as methods of knowing what a magic item does. I'm here to report that it's been like found money for my table and their enjoyment of the game. Now you can't be sure what's curse, what has a sentience that will overtake you, what has hidden abilities that you will have to discover through various means.

The flaming sword which has a command word you don't know suddenly flares to life in the middle of combat when you were yelling out to a party member. The wand that shoots a Fireball instead of just being an arcane focus for the first time. The armor that binds to your skin and turns you into something... else.

It's all been great fun and I suggest your try it too.

[Kryx]

I removed the short rest ability and Identify gives advantage on Arcana checks to identify magic items in my games.

I agree that the change is for the better.

[mephnick]

I removed the short rest ability but still use Identify. Waiting 3 months to figure out what your new toy can do by fluke seems so tediously frustrating.

Player: "Oh it calms animals if I stick it in the ground? Would have been useful and fun to know that in our session a month ago with all the animals in it."

[Tetrasodium]

I removed the short rest ability but still use Identify. Waiting 3 months to figure out what your new toy can do by fluke seems so tediously frustrating.

Player: "Oh it calms animals if I stick it in the ground? Would have been useful and fun to know that in our session a month ago with all the animals in it."


LOL :D too bad you are all level twelve now & you got rid of it a while back in favor of the thing you were pretty sure actually did something on account of seeing the bbeg use it against your pal Thog.

[Pex]

How dare players know stuff! Who do they think they are to believe they deserve to have a magic item. I'll teach them to remember the DM is their lord and master.

[Tetrasodium]

How dare players know stuff! Who do they think they are to believe they deserve to have a magic item. I'll teach them to remember the DM is their lord and master.

Don't forget to laugh at them for walking around wearing random stuff that was never magical regularly just in case it did something

[pwykersotz]

How dare players know stuff! Who do they think they are to believe they deserve to have a magic item. I'll teach them to remember the DM is their lord and master.

Ugh...why do DM's always harp about the rules? I just want to play my character. Do I really need to know every little specification of what they create? Can't I just have fun and pretend to be in an imaginary world and experience the joy of discovery? Honestly, I'm just tired of treating this game like it's a math problem.

[JakOfAllTirades]

Thanks for this.

Finally, I can be a DM without the existential terror of my players using their characters' resources in a setting - appropriate manner to uncover useful in-game information.

[BW022]

I've never had a problem with identify.

1. There are mundane ways of learning what something does.
a) You can write the command word on the item itself.
b) The person who gave it to you tells you.
c) You force the person who you took it from to tell you.
d) They write it down in a book.
e) You see/hear them use it against you.
f) Knowledge checks.
g) You do some research -- library, talk to someone who saw it used, etc.
etc.

2. The spell itself isn't terribly restrictive -- wizards, knowledge clerics, certain rogues or eldritch nights, warlocks (tomb), the ritual casting (wizard) feat, magic initiate (wizard) feat, etc.

3. For someone which has access to the spell... it is a great way to contribute to a party.

4. There are other spells which can help determine what something does -- detect magic (to get the school of magic), speak with dead, augury, divination, commune, contact other plane, legend lore, etc.

5. You can hire someone to identify the item -- or cast another spell, or use any of the mundane methods to identify the item for you. The cost is typically so much less than the value of an item and few players get magical items until levels at which 50 or 100 gold isn't an issue.

6. Players can guess or find out certain items through trial and error. Put items in a bag and see if it holds more than it should.

7. Most weapons, armor, and many wondrous items can simply be used. Magical armor probably helps you just by wearing it without any command word.

8. I've almost never had any issues with players not being able to wait until going to a town to hire someone to identify an item. Few adventurers put someone months away from a town and even those tend to be higher levels were players have access to teleport and other faster travel spells.

etc.

I just don't see any problem with it. I find it is more of a reward if players need to work a bit to determine what it is. As a DM, you have 100% control over how difficult that might be and there are few limits to how the players might find out. You can make it as easy as the bad guy having a diary with a list of all the items in the treasure room along with the command words, a knowledge check to remember that some book in a library might know it, all the way to going on a quest to find the lone assistant of the wizard how created the item.

[RulesJD]

Just like the title says, I've removed the Identify spell and the ability to spend a Short Rest with a magic item as methods of knowing what a magic item does. I'm here to report that it's been like found money for my table and their enjoyment of the game. Now you can't be sure what's curse, what has a sentience that will overtake you, what has hidden abilities that you will have to discover through various means.

The flaming sword which has a command word you don't know suddenly flares to life in the middle of combat when you were yelling out to a party member. The wand that shoots a Fireball instead of just being an arcane focus for the first time. The armor that binds to your skin and turns you into something... else.

It's all been great fun and I suggest your try it too.

Except the DM can't track with 100% accuracy what is happening 100% of the time. So a player says the secret command word but the DM doesn't hear it, etc.

Also, Identify does a lot more than just Identify items.

[Gryndle]

having been a player in campaigns using similar rules, I say PASS. I didn't find that it added anything other than frustration and distrust of the DM.

and as a dm I wouldn't do that to my players.

so no thanks. at best this comes across as change for no better reason than change itself. at worst it comes across as screw-the players/DM on a god-trip

[Flashy]

This is one of those campaign dependent things?

I like it as an idea, but given that the two campaigns I'm in currently are both ultra high-magic investigational campaigns it's too critical a tool.

[KorvinStarmast]

This is how we had to do it back in the early days.
It's a way to do it. It can work.

FWIW, the spell wasn't in the original game, but it has bee in the game since AD&D 1e (late 70's) so you might say it's become a fixture/tradition.

The "short rest" and time with an item strikes me as not a bad Role Playing decision, in terms of "what would you do once you had some time alone with a magic item?" I'd offer that many people would try to figure out what it does/how it works. Adventurers trend toward inquisitive.

I like the 5e method as is, but having played for so long in the mode you have chosen, know that it can work out just fine.

[Battlebooze]

If your campaign is a particularly low magic game, where magic items are rare and not explicitly needed to survive, then this could be kind of fun.

In a regular campaign, I'd be unhappy to play with this for all the reasons mentions above.

[pwykersotz]

I find that it's campaign dependent. A lot of times a spell or monster will take a concept and destroy it. If your campaign is centered around magic items doing crazy things, Identify might not be for you. If it's about a daring infiltration, Knock, Invisibility, and Silence might be off the table.

Identify, Remove Disease, and other powerful "fix it instantly" spells are a wonderful way to give players tools to take care of the things which plague them but which aren't a campaign focus. However, if a mysterious plague is your main hook, you might want to consider taking out the spell to instafix it. I had that problem with Remove Curse, myself.

[Inchoroi]

I kept Identify, but removed the short rest thing identify, because that's boring.

[MeeposFire]

I find that keeping items secret nd finding out more about them works well in a novel but is annoying in practice for me. Trying to remember to apply bonuses the player does not know about and keeping track of whatever the item does is so much work with little payoff in my experience. I have always been surprised how little the players cared about the experience heck they were often more annoyed by the lack of knowledge than excited at the discovery. This is why lately I have just allowed the various easy ways of identifying most magical items (some plot items and artifacts may not be so easy) and it seems to make my players happier.

[ProphetSword]

I kept Identify, but removed the short rest thing identify, because that's boring.

See, now, I found it to be the opposite. In my campaign, when you spend that hour with the item it will trigger any negative effects. If it's cursed, you become cursed. If it's an intelligent item, it will reveal itself and the battle of wills will begin if there's a differing point of view. That kind of thing.

There's also the fact that players will find items and won't know what they do until they take a short rest. Sometimes it will prompt them to do so, but sometimes they have to wait instead of having the answer immediately.

[mgshamster]

See, now, I found it to be the opposite. In my campaign, when you spend that hour with the item it will trigger any negative effects. If it's cursed, you become cursed. If it's an intelligent item, it will reveal itself and the battle of wills will begin if there's a differing point of view. That kind of thing.

There's also the fact that players will find items and won't know what they do until they take a short rest. Sometimes it will prompt them to do so, but sometimes they have to wait instead of having the answer immediately.

Heh.

Player: I steal the magic sword from the bbeg!

DM: Success. You feel the need to take a short rest, immediately. The sword seems to want to bond to you.

Player: But, were in the middle of battle!

[Ninja-Radish]

Just like the title says, I've removed the Identify spell and the ability to spend a Short Rest with a magic item as methods of knowing what a magic item does. I'm here to report that it's been like found money for my table and their enjoyment of the game. Now you can't be sure what's curse, what has a sentience that will overtake you, what has hidden abilities that you will have to discover through various means.

The flaming sword which has a command word you don't know suddenly flares to life in the middle of combat when you were yelling out to a party member. The wand that shoots a Fireball instead of just being an arcane focus for the first time. The armor that binds to your skin and turns you into something... else.

It's all been great fun and I suggest your try it too.

That sounds absolutely awful, no thank you! Me and my group wouldn't touch an item until we're sure it isn't cursed. Picking an item up and playing with it isn't a safe way to figure out what it does.

[Trask]

How dare players know stuff! Who do they think they are to believe they deserve to have a magic item. I'll teach them to remember the DM is their lord and master.

Any fun that doesn't deliver every single advantage, power and knowledge to the player is badwrongfun!

[Knaight]

There are specific campaign structures where this could work, but it does involve the magic items taking up a lot of GM-headspace. If magic items aren't particularly central somehow, I'd be inclined to advise avoiding this.

[sotik]

The players in my game have no magical weapons yet, so I haven't yet put my homebrew rule into play. But I was going to do something along the lines that resting with the item, will only unlock a little bit about it each time. So it takes several rests for players to fully know the potential the item has, and atune to it. Identify is still an option, but it allows the user to fully identify only 1 item during a rest.

I've also decided curses can only be revealed by special NPCs. So even if a player knows it's full potential, they have no idea if it will do them harm in the long run.

[Beechgnome]

This just seems like one of those things that should be decided as a table, at the start of a campaign, with players and DM agreeing to the house rule because of the nature of the campaign.

In a mystery campaign, identify might be the only way players have of finding a crucial clue, for example.

And if the players need the magic items to survive your Yawning Portal deathtrap, it's just a bad, frustrating experience.

[Zanthy1]

having been a player in campaigns using similar rules, I say PASS. I didn't find that it added anything other than frustration and distrust of the DM.

and as a dm I wouldn't do that to my players.

so no thanks. at best this comes across as change for no better reason than change itself. at worst it comes across as screw-the players/DM on a god-trip

Agreed, very rarely would a player actually not want to know what their new toy does, and if that is the case, they simply won't cast identify on it. As a DM I do't even use it most of the time anyways, saying "You have found a +1 sword, or a cap of water breathing."

[DanyBallon]

Agreed, very rarely would a player actually not want to know what their new toy does, and if that is the case, they simply won't cast identify on it. As a DM I do't even use it most of the time anyways, saying "You have found a +1 sword, or a cap of water breathing."

See, I wouldn't have fun playing in such a game, nothing against you, but I find it boring to know right away that I found a +1 magic weapon. The fun comes from discovering it's magical property from using it, or by having (finding if no one in the party can) someone cast a spell.

It's just a matter of playstyle.

In our game, we decided to remove the automatic discovery of magical properties trough short rest. But it was a group decision.

[LordVonDerp]

Now you can't be sure what's curse, what has a sentience that will overtake you, what has hidden abilities that you will have to discover through various means.
So, you deliberately removed players' ability to make meaningful choices about magic items, with the intention of using magic items that remove player agency.

[Pex]

Any fun that doesn't deliver every single advantage, power and knowledge to the player is badwrongfun!

When the DM is purposely screwing over the players for the sake of screwing over the players in the metagame, yes, I will call that badwrongfun and not apologize for it. More so demanding other people follow the example. "You should too!"

[jas61292]

When the DM is purposely screwing over the players for the sake of screwing over the players in the metagame, yes, I will call that badwrongfun and not apologize for it. More so demanding other people follow the example. "You should too!"

Screwing over players is telling them thier identify fails repeatedly.

Telling them that identify and short rests do not identify item properties in a campaign is opting for a different style of campaign, and if the players know this, then they are not being screwed over.

Simply because it makes things more challenging does not mean it is bad. Personally, I find a lack of any uncertainty with magic items boring, and would prefer my DM to make this kind of change.

[pwykersotz]

Simply because it makes things more challenging does not mean it is bad. Personally, I find a lack of any uncertainty with magic items boring, and would prefer my DM to make this kind of change.

I have this problem with D&D magic as a whole. The overly codified spells which always produce identical results and have no sacrifice for the power bug me. I can't invest in it as a player, I feel like I'm pressing a button, not bargaining with the spirits to grant me their power or drawing from the mysterious plane of Shadows where dark things lurk. I want creative opportunities, not push to win.

I feel like this is what the removal of Identify does for the table in the OP. It presents a creative opportunity to figure out and use the item that the table is otherwise lacking.

[DanyBallon]

When the DM is purposely screwing over the players for the sake of screwing over the players in the metagame, yes, I will call that badwrongfun and not apologize for it. More so demanding other people follow the example. "You should too!"

Can I ask you why you assume that is always the DM trying to screw players. Have you though that the DM, or a player, brought the idea to the table and was voted in by all?

[Trask]

When the DM is purposely screwing over the players for the sake of screwing over the players in the metagame, yes, I will call that badwrongfun and not apologize for it. More so demanding other people follow the example. "You should too!"

You're wrong. He is not "screwing over the players", he's trying to make magic items more fantastical and give the game more of a discovery and experimental element. If he likes t and his players do too then then theres nothing wrong with that, or sharing it with others, and you coming in this thread to be sardonic and condescending to his idea is rude and you should feel bad for intentionally interpreting his idea in the worst possible way just because you have some bone to pick with perceived "tyrannical dm behavior"

[kenposan]

Like many, I killed the short rest thing. I allow characters to know something radiates magic, but not what without further investigation. Players need Identify, someone to cast it, or drop coin for a sage to research it. OR, they just get lucky. I had the flame tongue burst into flames on a Nat20. It was great. I like having 'accidental' moments like that and my player loved it.

[Gryndle]

there are a few things I would object too about the OP's post & idea. first is the "and you should too!" part. eh, don't tell me how to play. ever. just don't.

what I find objectionable about the idea is the removal of BOTH the Identify spell's ability to actually identify your magic item & its obvious quirks AND the ability to do the same with a short rest.

If you only removed ONE of those options, I would be fine playing in that game.

removing BOTH is a step too far for me

[jas61292]

there are a few things I would object too about the OP's post & idea. first is the "and you should too!" part. eh, don't tell me how to play. ever. just don't.

what I find objectionable about the idea is the removal of BOTH the Identify spell's ability to actually identify your magic item & its obvious quirks AND the ability to do the same with a short rest.

If you only removed ONE of those options, I would be fine playing in that game.

removing BOTH is a step too far for me

Personally, I just think they are both too easy. I don't mind there being a way to do it, but it's practically no cost in time ore resources.

Now, if you get rid of the short rest identification and remove the ritual tag from Identify, then I would be cool with it. Making it essentially free during down time, but somewhat costly in the middle of an adventure allows for meaningful choice, and not a situation where everything is expected to always be identified right away.

[KorvinStarmast]

I find Pex's objection to "you should too" appropriate.

Now, if you get rid of the short rest identification and remove the ritual tag from Identify, then I would be cool with it. Making it essentially free during down time, but somewhat costly in the middle of an adventure allows for meaningful choice, and not a situation where everything is expected to always be identified right away. Nice idea, or perhaps make the ritual take longer so that during an adventure the wizard/party has to make a choice ... say ... as long as a short rest or a bit longer? (this makes the choice of "arcane recovery or identify" one the party has to make).

[DanyBallon]

Personally, I just think they are both too easy. I don't mind there being a way to do it, but it's practically no cost in time ore resources.

Now, if you get rid of the short rest identification and remove the ritual tag from Identify, then I would be cool with it. Making it essentially free during down time, but somewhat costly in the middle of an adventure allows for meaningful choice, and not a situation where everything is expected to always be identified right away.

You could just have the spell material component be destroyed after each use. The charaters will need to stock on pearls and those will be subject to being stolen, or used for trade. This solution works only if you are enforcing th material components though.

[Beelzebubba]

Yeah, the people immediately calling this DM aggression have had bad DMs.

I've done it this way as long as I can remember.


Magic items generally look or feel special. Their very nature makes people want to learn more, and the way I describe them clues this in.
They clearly radiate magic, and detect magic will give the school of magic it involves.
They have things on them, such as buttons, gems, runes, or other clues / affordances that give characters something to touch, read, or play around with.
I pepper the character's interaction with the item with clues, hints, suggestions. I treat it like a puzzle that is solvable, that I want to have the players solve, and treat it like an amusing riddle.
If they can't figure it out, or don't try, and a situation comes up where the item will be extremely useful, I have it give off light, noise, vibrations, whatever - like Sting giving off the blue light near Orcs. And then however the item goes off, I have it either do something funny or useful. Never punitive.


How incredibly BORING to turn this into a simple spell that just works! We might as well reduce all character interactions to Charisma checks without talking. Some of the best stories come from people doing the silliest things to try to get a magic item to work, and occasionally having a hilarious screw-up in the process.

[N810]

Maybe you could modify identify and add a DC roll to the spell.
1 fail
4-5 you kinda know what it does
6-10 you know it's name
11-15 you know how to use it
45-19 you know most things about it including charges and the like.
20+ you know everything about it including weather it's cursed or not.


Ps. I bet Beelzebubba only gives his players wands of wonder and decks of many things. :P

[DanyBallon]

Maybe you could modify identify and add a DC roll to the spell.
1 fail
4-5 you kinda know what it does
6-10 you know it's name
11-15 you know how to use it
45-19 you know most things about it including charges and the like.
20+ you know everything about it including weather it's cursed or not.


Ps. I bet Beelzebubba only gives his players wands of wonder and decks of many things. :P

Surfing on your idea, their could be a check (either a new skill, arcana or plain Int check) that allow you to identify a magic item DC based on rarity and variable success depending on how close you are from beating the DC. This would somehow work like it was in Baldur's Gate of old (except for the variable success). You could also keep the Identify spell, but make it ritual only, or having a more expensive material cost, etc.

[Lord Il Palazzo]

Yeah, the people immediately calling this DM aggression have had bad DMs.

I've done it this way as long as I can remember.


Magic items generally look or feel special. Their very nature makes people want to learn more, and the way I describe them clues this in.
They clearly radiate magic, and detect magic will give the school of magic it involves.
They have things on them, such as buttons, gems, runes, or other clues / affordances that give characters something to touch, read, or play around with.
I pepper the character's interaction with the item with clues, hints, suggestions. I treat it like a puzzle that is solvable, that I want to have the players solve, and treat it like an amusing riddle.
If they can't figure it out, or don't try, and a situation comes up where the item will be extremely useful, I have it give off light, noise, vibrations, whatever - like Sting giving off the blue light near Orcs. And then however the item goes off, I have it either do something funny or useful. Never punitive.


How incredibly BORING to turn this into a simple spell that just works! We might as well reduce all character interactions to Charisma checks without talking. Some of the best stories come from people doing the silliest things to try to get a magic item to work, and occasionally having a hilarious screw-up in the process.Let's see, either different players and groups enjoy different styles of game and no solution fits everyone, or I'm a "bad"/"BORING" (your words) DM because my players would rather spend their time adventuring than waving around every wand they find and shouting random words to try and guess how to activate it and generally jumping though hoops every time they find potentially interesting treasure.

I can't begin to guess which of these scenarios seems more likely...

[DanyBallon]

Let's see, either different players and groups enjoy different styles of game and no solution fits everyone, or I'm a "bad"/"BORING" (your words) DM because my players would rather spend their time adventuring than waving around every wand they find and shouting random words to try and guess how to activate it and generally jumping though hoops every time they find potentially interesting treasure.

I can't begin to guess which of these scenarios seems more likely...

You don't necessary have to wave it around to found what it does. It could be as simple to examine throughly, noting special characteristics, looking/asking about information on the item. Weapon and armor can still be used, but activated ability may be harder to discover by themselves. All these could lead to new adventures.

On the other hand, such style doesn't work well in games where you find lots of magic items. It's best suited for games where finding a magic item is quite rare.

[Lord Il Palazzo]

You don't necessary have to wave it around to found what it does. It could be as simple to examine throughly, noting special characteristics, looking/asking about information on the item. Weapon and armor can still be used, but activated ability may be harder to discover by themselves. All these could lead to new adventures.Like I said, different styles work for different games and different groups. My games tend to be more focused on the player characters and adventures usually stem more from their backstories than random quests they stumble into along the way. (Heck, I already have players complaining about how long it takes sometimes to make progress following existing plotlines; I doubt they'd be enthusiastic about having an extra plot hook tied to every magic item that turns up along the way.)

My problem isn't with the style of game you and Beelzebubba are talking about. It's with the tone Beelzebubba took about it, declaring that people who run games that aren't his style are bad DMs and games that don't turn magic items into puzzles and mysteries are (and I quote) "BORING". Basically, my point is different styles work for different groups; there's no need to insult people who play different types of games than you.

[Astofel]

My DM removed Identify as well, although I don't know if he's removed short rest identification as well. We've only found one magic item so far (a decanter of endless water), but we had a great time figuring out what it was and how to use it. It was given to the party by an NPC who knew it was magical but not exactly what it was. The DM described it to us as simply looking like a bottle of water. We tried shaking it (nothing), tasting it (tastes like water), pouring a little of it (it made things wet), and finally just pouring it out on the ground, which is how we worked out it was endless. Then we noticed the command words written on it, and tried saying them with the bottle's stopper on and off before we eventually worked out you had to take the stopper off as you said the command word.

I personally change how Remove Curse works as well. I treat it more like Dispel Magic, with curses having 'levels' that require Remove Curse to be cast at higher levels to remove. Otherwise there's no point in giving your party cursed items or using a curse as a plot device, they just simply remove the curse and go on their merry way.

[DanyBallon]

Like I said, different styles work for different games and different groups. My games tend to be more focused on the player characters and adventures usually stem more from their backstories than random quests they stumble into along the way. (Heck, I already have players complaining about how long it takes sometimes to make progress following existing plotlines; I doubt they'd be enthusiastic about having an extra plot hook tied to every magic item that turns up along the way.)

My problem isn't with the style of game you and Beelzebubba are talking about. It's with the tone Beelzebubba took about it, declaring that people who run games that aren't his style are bad DMs and games that don't turn magic items into puzzles and mysteries are (and I quote) "BORING". Basically, my point is different styles work for different groups; there's no need to insult people who play different types of games than you.

In defence of Beelzebubba, a few post prior to his, some were arguing that a game where the actual means to identify a magic items were removed, was badwrongfun. His tone could have been a bit more agressive in response to those.

[JackPhoenix]

You could just have the spell material component be destroyed after each use. The charaters will need to stock on pearls and those will be subject to being stolen, or used for trade. This solution works only if you are enforcing th material components though.

That reminds me when I've played Baldur's Gate. Man, getting 100gp to identify every magic item I've found wasn't as easy as it sounds, especially early on. While you could wear magic stuff without identifying it, you couldn't use scrolls or wands, and cursed items were a thing. Or spending time memorising Identify and doing it on my own for free (I didn't liked to rest for no good reason, even though there wasn't any penalty for taking your time... yay roleplaying in a single-player CRPG). Those 3x day Identify goggles from BG2 were godsent.

While I agree with posters saying they've removed short rest identifying, what OP suggests sounds too much like playing "guess what I'm thinking" with your players. Yay, your sword burst into flames because you've randomly said some arbitrary word that wasn't hinted at in any way before... isn't that fun?

[Kalashak]

Just like the title says, I've removed the Identify spell and the ability to spend a Short Rest with a magic item as methods of knowing what a magic item does. I'm here to report that it's been like found money for my table and their enjoyment of the game. Now you can't be sure what's curse, what has a sentience that will overtake you, what has hidden abilities that you will have to discover through various means.

The flaming sword which has a command word you don't know suddenly flares to life in the middle of combat when you were yelling out to a party member. The wand that shoots a Fireball instead of just being an arcane focus for the first time. The armor that binds to your skin and turns you into something... else.

It's all been great fun and I suggest your try it too.

For what it's worth, Identify doesn't reveal curses

[Knaight]

While I agree with posters saying they've removed short rest identifying, what OP suggests sounds too much like playing "guess what I'm thinking" with your players. Yay, your sword burst into flames because you've randomly said some arbitrary word that wasn't hinted at in any way before... isn't that fun?

It could be, if the campaign was set up right. Putting aside how much tracking of stuff this needs and how easy it will be for things to slip through the cracks, a game where there are a lot of magic items and the way one effectively got them was usually along the lines of inadvertently activating something you already had where the campaign was set to focus on this could work. Take a bunch of characters who are explicitly magic item retrieval specialists, put them in the structure of a larger player controlled group where the players are playing both the retrieval specialists and devising magic item research procedures for the organization these characters are a part of, have a setting that facilitates this by having magic items be a major source of high risk high reward power where it's standard procedure for organizational conflict to involve organizations trying to get ahold of items as one way to get more influence (along with conventional political machinations, conventional military conflicts, methods of gaining followers, wealth production, etc.).

This could work well, and a core part of the engagement is lost with an easy Identify spell (though a more limited spell that can only get a portion of the items and that thus needs to be prioritized could easily work). It absolutely needs underlying rules that can be found, and it won't operate without the hidden information. It's also a textbook case of what I was talking about with this being the sort of decision that works for a particular type of game.

[BigONotation]

OP here. The "you should too!" wasn't meant to be prescriptive but as encouragement to try something different.

I absolutely talked this over with my table before the campaign began and got buy in and "you should too!" haha.

In terms of making them work out a command word for a magic item or activating it, I tend to do checks based on usage or handling time as appropriate. If a player uses the +1 long sword, they very quickly realize its true nature in combat, if its cursed and they can't get rid of it they can learn that through use too.

At my table we like the mystery of magic items to be incorporated in how the PCs and world behaves.

[Gryndle]

Like I said, different styles work for different games and different groups. My games tend to be more focused on the player characters and adventures usually stem more from their backstories than random quests they stumble into along the way. (Heck, I already have players complaining about how long it takes sometimes to make progress following existing plotlines; I doubt they'd be enthusiastic about having an extra plot hook tied to every magic item that turns up along the way.)

My problem isn't with the style of game you and Beelzebubba are talking about. It's with the tone Beelzebubba took about it, declaring that people who run games that aren't his style are bad DMs and games that don't turn magic items into puzzles and mysteries are (and I quote) "BORING". Basically, my point is different styles work for different groups; there's no need to insult people who play different types of games than you.

Absolutely agreed. I would rather spend precious game time exploring ruins, tracking down or hunting intelligence on the enemy, or trying to find the missing npc/artifact McGuffin.

pretty much anything other than trying to figure what, if anything, some weird item does. especially considering, with the removal of the mechanical methods of identifying magic, you are entirely relying on the DM to decide if you have done enough silly bullsnot to learn anything useful about the item. to me THAT would be extremely boring, and frustrating.

[ProphetSword]

I'm glad it worked out for the OP and others, but it wouldn't be a fit for my campaign.

I remember playing AD&D and having a DM who made us figure out what items were. It was frustrating beyond belief. Not to mention it was boring for all the players except the one who had the item. They would spend a ton of time trying to figure the item out while the rest of us sat and twiddled our thumbs.

So, thanks for the suggestion...but I'll pass on bringing that kind of boredom to my own table.

[Haldir]

Without Identify so many exciting plot hooks suddenly become backstory mess that nobody will ever know about.

Get rid of that short rest malarky, but if my wizard who is an expert in magic items can't even casting effing Identify, screw that lame table anyway.

[Frogosaurus]

Bottom line up-front: Like anything else in D&D, what is a stellar idea for one group is game-killing anathema to another group.

I've got a campaign in which magic items are more likely to have been made by fey or outsiders (frequently those from the deep end of the alignment pool) rather than by magic item factories.

As such, the vast majority of items are homebrewed (not counting potions and such), and most of my items have multiple effects. Many also have disadvantages (usually, the disadvantage doesn't offset the advantage, because that would be pointless in a non-cursed item). Hags made a lot of the items in my game world, and their ethos shines through in the mix of good and bad that comes from things.

But ultimately, magic in my world is intended to be mysterious and potentially dangerous.

As such, Identify in my game allows an arcana check. Basic abilities are automatically detected/identified. Secondary and tertiary effects are detected (or not) depending on how good the arcana roll was. For some items, a History check is useful.

Does this require a fair amount of work for me as the DM? Yes, it does. I don't have any +1 swords lying around; crafting an item takes more brain bytes than if I just grabbed something out of the DMG.

But it works fine for my campaign, and for my players. But that's the key caveat here - it works for ME and it works for the PLAYERS in the group. For something like AL, or even a random grab-bag of players culled from meetup.com, it more than likely wouldn't go over very well.

(edit: of course, our wizard was recently transferred to a job in another city, and the guy I got to replace him is playing an Arcane Trickster, so nobody in the group knows identify at the moment anyway)

[Spellbreaker26]

I think this might work if you were running a very low magic item setting, but if not it seems like it could get very difficult.

[Asmotherion]

I disagree for two good reasons:

A) It's one of the ways to make a low level wizard have his moment... don't take that from him.
B) In case the party does not have a Wizard, I find the "Let's find us a Wizard to tell us what those things do" a perfect hookpoint, making the wizard either a questgiver or directly involved in the next quest.

Ofcource, in your world you can do whatever you feel like, I just give you the reasons why not to.

[Frogosaurus]

Earthdawn has an interesting way of handling magic item identification, but though I find that works well in context of that game setting (and particularly makes the Weaponsmith 'class' far more useful than it would otherwise be), it's not particularly directly translatable to 5e. (I will admit, however, that my use of tiered arcana checks to detect different aspects of a magic item was inspired by the ability of Earthdawn characters to gradually learn more about the magical threads tied to their items).

[BillyBobShorton]

I get both sides. While a little whimsical or even malignant mystery/sudden reveal can be fun, I also like my players to have items they know what to do with.

[KorvinStarmast]

OP here. The "you should too!" wasn't meant to be prescriptive but as encouragement to try something different. I suggest, as an occasional wordsmith, using a phrase like
"I highly recommend it"
or
"it's been a great success"
rather than "you should too"

since the tone (received) is different and more appealing in the two former examples.

This suggestion presumes that your intent was to encourage this decision since you found it to be successful. Like all free advice, this is worth about what you paid for it, and is only as valuable as you perceive it to be. :smallcool:

[LordVonDerp]

You don't necessary have to wave it around to found what it does. It could be as simple to examine throughly, noting special characteristics, looking/asking about information on the item. Weapon and armor can still be used, but activated ability may be harder to discover by themselves. All these could lead to new adventures.

On the other hand, such style doesn't work well in games where you find lots of magic items. It's best suited for games where finding a magic item is quite rare.

They could, but such adventures would be focused on a single PC's interactions with an item.

[mgshamster]

I suggest, as an occasional wordsmith, using a phrase like
"I highly recommend it"
or
"it's been a great success"
rather than "you should too"

since the tone (received) is different and more appealing in the two former examples.

This suggestion presumes that your intent was to encourage this decision since you found it to be successful. Like all free advice, this is worth about what you paid for it, and is only as valuable as you perceive it to be. :smallcool:

From my perspective, a lot of people just took a lot of offense from what is a really common phrase. It's almost as if they were being disingenuous to cover up the embarrassment of being wrong for hammering down on him - once they realized that he was just trying to suggest a friendly way to make the game fun if your group likes that sort of thing.

Could he have phrased it better? Maybe. Did he use a phrase that is exceedingly common? Yeah. Did people over react and then use that phrase as an excuse? You betcha.

[Pex]

From my perspective, a lot of people just took a lot of offense from what is a really common phrase. It's almost as if they were being disingenuous to cover up the embarrassment of being wrong for hammering down on him - once they realized that he was just trying to suggest a friendly way to make the game fun if your group likes that sort of thing.

Could he have phrased it better? Maybe. Did he use a phrase that is exceedingly common? Yeah. Did people over react and then use that phrase as an excuse? You betcha.

I would resemble that remark except I'm not embarrassed nor wrong.

[Knaight]

From my perspective, a lot of people just took a lot of offense from what is a really common phrase. It's almost as if they were being disingenuous to cover up the embarrassment of being wrong for hammering down on him - once they realized that he was just trying to suggest a friendly way to make the game fun if your group likes that sort of thing.

Either that or a phrase that could be interpreted in either way based on context was interpreted as a mandate because it's a request to play games as they used to be played and the OSR crowd has a habit of insisting that theirs is the only way to play. One of the two.

[mgshamster]

Either that or a phrase that could be interpreted in either way based on context was interpreted as a mandate because it's a request to play games as they used to be played and the OSR crowd has a habit of insisting that theirs is the only way to play. One of the two.

Umm.. yeah. Anyone reading it that way is just trying to be offended over a really common phrase.

Heck, the OP didn't even say anything about OSR or anything old school. So reading it that way, not only would one have to recognize that it's an old school technique, one would also have to assume that OP was specifically an OSR fan trying to dictate his method onto everyone else.

That's a lot of assumptions and twisting one would have to do to conclude to OP meant it that way.

Of anyone did that, why, they would just have to be trying to be offended over what is a really common phrase.

Either that, or they're being disingenuous over their original assumptions and trying to hide behind the phrase as an excuse for being wrong.

One of the two.

[pwykersotz]

I second the miniature giant space hamster. People are touchy on some weird stuff. It was a friendly entreaty and a good idea to explore whether or not you decide to adopt it.

[Gryndle]

see, I didn't get "friendly entreaty" at all from the OP. what I got from it was arrogant and pushy on a combination of rules that seem arbitrary and nonsensical. so no, I am neither embarrassed nor apologetic at my reaction.

[mgshamster]

see, I didn't get "friendly entreaty" at all from the OP. what I got from it was arrogant and pushy on a combination of rules that seem arbitrary and nonsensical. so no, I am neither embarrassed nor apologetic at my reaction.

"I'm here to report that it's been like found money for my table and their enjoyment of the game."

"It's all been great fun and I suggest your try it too."

Yup. I can see it. Totally arrogant and pushy. Reporting that your players enjoyment have increased and suggesting people should try something they've had fun with is 100% arrogance and pushy. All the time, everytime - suggesting people should try something they've had fun with is bad.

[Gryndle]

ok, i'll concede that the body of the post wasn't that bad. its the title that got me riled. that and I just genuinely do not see the value of incorporating his idea into my game. at all.

The phrase "I've blah blah blah and you should too!" I pretty much only ever hear that from cheesy commercials (for which I liberally use the mute button) and my mother-in-law, for which I desperately wish there was a mute button.

[pwykersotz]

It makes me a little sad to see so many chips on so many shoulders, especially when talking with fellow enthusiasts about a game that we all play for fun. I think we'd all have a much better time if we assumed good faith and friendliness when reading posts. Oh well, I enjoyed the thought of this variant. :smallsmile:

[mgshamster]

ok, i'll concede that the body of the post wasn't that bad. its the title that got me riled. that and I just genuinely do not see the value of incorporating his idea into my game. at all.

The phrase "I've blah blah blah and you should too!" I pretty much only ever hear that from cheesy commercials (for which I liberally use the mute button) and my mother-in-law, for which I desperately wish there was a mute button.

I barked out a laugh at that. Now my wife is giving me a funny look.

[RickAllison]

It makes me a little sad to see so many chips on so many shoulders, especially when talking with fellow enthusiasts about a game that we all play for fun. I think we'd all have a much better time if we assumed good faith and friendliness when reading posts. Oh well, I enjoyed the thought of this variant. :smallsmile:

I think it could work in the right games. Come to think of it, maybe I should start up a PbP with the idea...

Come to think of it, a PbP might just be the right format for such a campaign. The DM is more free to adjudicate someone splitting off to pursue a lead on a magic item while the others follow more normal leads. You don't have the same concerns about one player's quest to understand the hilt of a sword taking up community table time when there is no community table time.

[GPS]

Honestly, I feel like there's an easier solution to this problem. Just don't tell the players everything about the item. Hide details you want to be a surprise. If you're removing identify and short rest identification anyway, then kinda nerfing them instead won't do any harm.

[bardo]

Bypass the issue entirely by never giving the players any magic items! Haha. Seriously though...

Most of the time an activation method bears no meaning for the story, so aim for fun. I ask the players to describe how their character tries to activate an item. They try a few mundane things, I say nope, when they come up with something fun/interesting/bizarre I say "That worked!" and write it down into the adventure's lore.

World building is not just for DMs.

I don't have to wreck my brain coming up new activation methods. The players get an activation method they enjoy (hey, they came up with it). And best of all, the players don't know it's them coming up with all the activation methods!

Bardo.

[KorvinStarmast]

Did he use a phrase that is exceedingly common? Yeah.
Particularly in advertising. :smallyuk:

Did people over react and then use that phrase as an excuse? You betcha. I wish to subscribe to your newsletter. :smallwink:

[Psikerlord]

Just like the title says, I've removed the Identify spell and the ability to spend a Short Rest with a magic item as methods of knowing what a magic item does. I'm here to report that it's been like found money for my table and their enjoyment of the game. Now you can't be sure what's curse, what has a sentience that will overtake you, what has hidden abilities that you will have to discover through various means.

The flaming sword which has a command word you don't know suddenly flares to life in the middle of combat when you were yelling out to a party member. The wand that shoots a Fireball instead of just being an arcane focus for the first time. The armor that binds to your skin and turns you into something... else.

It's all been great fun and I suggest your try it too.
You might consider removing Raise Dead, Detect Lies and Teleport while you're at it (serious, game runs better without these abilities, imo).

[TurboGhast]

Bypass the issue entirely by never giving the players any magic items! Haha. Seriously though...

Most of the time an activation method bears no meaning for the story, so aim for fun. I ask the players to describe how their character tries to activate an item. They try a few mundane things, I say nope, when they come up with something fun/interesting/bizarre I say "That worked!" and write it down into the adventure's lore.

World building is not just for DMs.

I don't have to wreck my brain coming up new activation methods. The players get an activation method they enjoy (hey, they came up with it). And best of all, the players don't know it's them coming up with all the activation methods!

Bardo.

You can also not bother with specifying activation methods, and just say what type of action it takes to use a particular function. This also avoids the problem some items have, wherein it takes an entire action just to press a button, pull up a hood, or another task short enough that an entire action feels too long for it to take.

[McNinja]

Just like the title says, I've removed the Identify spell and the ability to spend a Short Rest with a magic item as methods of knowing what a magic item does. I'm here to report that it's been like found money for my table and their enjoyment of the game. Now you can't be sure what's curse, what has a sentience that will overtake you, what has hidden abilities that you will have to discover through various means.

The flaming sword which has a command word you don't know suddenly flares to life in the middle of combat when you were yelling out to a party member. The wand that shoots a Fireball instead of just being an arcane focus for the first time. The armor that binds to your skin and turns you into something... else.

It's all been great fun and I suggest your try it too.


You don't necessary have to wave it around to found what it does. It could be as simple to examine throughly, noting special characteristics, looking/asking about information on the item. Weapon and armor can still be used, but activated ability may be harder to discover by themselves. All these could lead to new adventures.

On the other hand, such style doesn't work well in games where you find lots of magic items. It's best suited for games where finding a magic item is quite rare.

My campaign has a ton of magical items. Making players figure out what each one did individually without a short rest/identity to help would grind the entire campaign to a halt. Not only that, but throwing new adventures at them to figure out what an item is or how to remove a curse would be absurd - in my campaign, the world has been plunged into an everlasting night. "Hey man let's go check out what this magical sword does, we don't need to figure out why its been night for the last 72 hours or why that black carriage pulled by nightmares flew across the sky."

One of the biggest problems I have with many video game RPGs is that the story only progresses when you do the missions. The worlds aren't living, persistent things. Skyrim, Fallout, the Witcher, Dragon Age Inq, etc. The huge dragon or evil organization that's destroying the world suddenly stops while you go do a side quest. In my campaign, if the players stop progress in the story, the world gets deeper into ****. There's no "side quests" and if there are, they hire people/sellswords to do them.

[mgshamster]

A way to split this would be to have all weaker magic items be automatically known, but the most powerful magic items have to be discovered.

Items of Very Rare or higher (like artifacts) need their own quest to discover everything about them. Or at the very least, need a very powerful mage who's also dedicated to magic item understanding (aka someone who doesn't Adventure). And that guy/gal might have some requirements of their own or need help in some other way.

Sure, you may know one or two things it could do (and may discover more as time goes on), but if you want to know everything it can do, you'll have to seek out someone who can tell you.

A good DM will also try to work that into the main or secondary stories, rather than making it a tertiary story.

For some games, this can work well. Especially the style of games that seems to be a series of smaller quests that may or may not have a larger over arching theme. For other games, it doesn't work well (like playing through a campaign​ with a time crunch and zero downtime - I really don't see it working in OotA). Really, it all depends on the campaign style.