Druids and Lycanthropy

[ComaVision]

In the campaign I'm currently DMing, the mostly-CE group is trying to strike up an alliance with a group of lycanthropes. The only way I can see that really happening is if the group accepts the "kiss" and become lycanthropes themselves. If they accept, I'll have a discussion with them about whether they want to have the full template and not level up again or if they want a watered down version (probably just the shapeshifting).

My problem is that one of the group is a NE Druid. If he accepts, he will lose all his class features, including the animal companion he's quite fond of. Obviously, the easiest solution is ignore the alignment implications and continue on but I think that would feel cheap for both of us. I thought about letting him rebuild as a CE Druid variant but have been unable to find one. I also considered letting him retrain into a buffed up Blighter (switch out the spell lists, instead of a separate progression) but that is still a major nerf.

Does anyone have any ideas about how to acknowledge the impact of the druid accepting lycanthropy without making the character nonviable? The player is a good sport and will probably be fine with whatever.

This may be a moot point if the group declines or gets side-tracked but I'd rather think about it before than after.

[Inevitability]

You could have the druid become a Quasilycanthrope (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20040721a) instead. It doesn't seem to lock down alignment like normal lycanthropy does.

Also, is every single lycanthrope in the group CE? How hard would it be to throw in a single member of a NE species?

[sleepyphoenixx]

Only werewolves are "always chaotic evil".
Weretigers and wereboars are both neutral, so they don't conflict with a druids alignment restrictions.
There's also tons more animals that make viable lycanthropes that aren't statted out (and so have no pre-assigned alignment), so he could just pick one that strikes you as suitably neutral-evil. Were-vulture? Were-snake? Were-hyena?

There's also the alignment section in the Lycanthrope entry (at the bottom), so you can just handwave it.

Alignment

Any. Noble creatures such as bears, eagles, and lions tend to produce good-aligned lycanthropes. Sinister creatures such as rats, snakes, and wolves tend to produce evil-aligned lycanthropes. This is a reflection of how these animals are perceived, not any innate quality of the animal itself, so the alignment of the animal form can be arbitrarily assigned.

[Uncle Pine]

Have the Druid be afflicted by lycanthropy and keep living on until he eventually fails the lycanthropy will save and shifts alignment. Then have Atonement (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/atonement.htm) cast on him.

[ComaVision]

You could have the druid become a Quasilycanthrope (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20040721a) instead. It doesn't seem to lock down alignment like normal lycanthropy does.

That might work. I could always fluff it that the druid's connection to the wilds changed the effect.


Also, is every single lycanthrope in the group CE? How hard would it be to throw in a single member of a NE species?

Only werewolves are "always chaotic evil".
Weretigers and wereboars are both neutral, so they don't conflict with a druids alignment restrictions.
There's also tons more animals that make viable lycanthropes that aren't statted out (and so have no pre-assigned alignment), so he could just pick one that strikes you as suitably neutral-evil. Were-vulture? Were-snake? Were-hyena?


They're all weresharks and are well established in the campaign to be CE. Nobody has done a Detect Chaos or anything but I think it would be noticed.

Thanks for the suggestions.

EDIT:

Have the Druid be afflicted by lycanthropy and keep living on until he eventually fails the lycanthropy will save and shifts alignment. Then have Atonement (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/atonement.htm) cast on him.

Interesting. I guess there's no RAW that would have the lycanthropy snap him back to CE beyond the initial time?

[Vizzerdrix]

Well, what other sorts of werecriters might the sharks have around? Maybe a were barracuda, octopus, or turtle of some sort?

Maybe because he can already shift his form, they have him preform a ritual instead to prove he is sharky enough. At the end, give him something neat like horrid dire sharks added too his summons list.

Also, they may ask him to remain unchanged so he can assist in some other way. Dedicated silver handeler, maybe?

[ATHATH]

The Druid could get infected, secretly cast Cure Disease on himself, then PRETEND to be a Were-Shark by using his Wildshaping.

[ShurikVch]

My problem is that one of the group is a NE Druid. If he accepts, he will lose all his class features, including the animal companion he's quite fond of. Obviously, the easiest solution is ignore the alignment implications and continue on but I think that would feel cheap for both of us.Note: Malar, god of all evil lycanthropes, is CE; his chosen are all CE too... unless the chosen is Druid!

Thus, if CE god make exception for Druids, then it should be completely OK

If you want to make it "more difficult", you may ask Druid to make Will save, and keep the alignment if successful

[Uncle Pine]

Interesting. I guess there's no RAW that would have the lycanthropy snap him back to CE beyond the initial time?
There actually is. The relevant bits are the following:

Thereafter, the character is subject to involuntary transformation under the full moon and whenever damaged in combat. He or she feels an overwhelming rage building up and must succeed on a Control Shape check (see below) to resist changing into animal form. Any player character not yet aware of his or her lycanthropic condition temporarily becomes an NPC during an involuntary change, and acts according to the alignment of his or her animal form.

A character with awareness of his condition retains his identity and does not lose control of his actions if he changes. However, each time he changes to his animal form, he must make a Will save (DC 15 + number of times he has been in animal form) or permanently assume the alignment of his animal form in all shapes.
From the above we can extrapolate that:
- every afflicted lycanthrope, even one that is aware of his condition, will either need to be good at his shtick in his animal form, crank his Control Shape modifier to reasonable levels (+24 being the sweet spot), or accept that he's inevitably going to suck as he's forced to spend a whole standard action to force himself out of animal form after every full attack routine he's subjected to;
- using Atonement to fix a wereDruid alignment is only a temporary fix unless his Control Shape modifier is +24 or greater.

Control Shape isn't the best skill to sink one's skill point in, but something the Druid could do is buying a +10 competence Control Shape item for 10,000 gp and a masterwork tool for 50 gp, putting him halfway through the bonus he needs to never fail a check. Control Shape's also a Wis-based skill, so that should help as well.

[PacMan2247]

Personally, I've always felt that the Monster Manuals even making alignment suggestions on lycanthropes was a load of crap, to say nothing about requirements. Animals are, thanks to Intelligence scores below the accountability threshold, Neutral by definition: they have instincts, not intentions. If the idea is that the character loses higher mental functions and becomes a creature of instinct, that doesn't change anything, because during that transformation, the were-character's Intelligence score and personality are out of the equation. If the character retains its mentality after infection, then it also retains its normal impulse control- it might struggle with unfamiliar or stronger impulses than before, but the mindset and personality are still there.

Wolves in particular are pack animals, with a very distinct hierarchy- if they're stepping off neutral on the order/chaos axis, it isn't towards chaos. I would make the same argument for any lycanthrope based on a pack or herd animal. Even solitary predators like the sharks used as a base in this particular example know when they're out of their territory, and if they aren't prepared to contest hunting rights, they'll leave when faced down by a stronger predator. Animals aren't chaotic, it's just that humans aren't always capable of understanding the factors driving their actions, especially as you get further away from the basic primate viewpoint.

[Thurbane]

Just be aware, that in WoTC-speak "always" doesn't actually mean always, when it comes to alignment. LG Succubi are a thing, and outsiders tend to be much more locked to their alignment than Humanoids etc.

[druid91]

The problem with that is that Lycanthropes are meant to marry the worst parts of both forms. The savage violence of an animal, with none of the innocence of an unthinking beast.

They know what they do and do it anyway. I always felt that yes, they retain their normal impulse control. But human impulse control is notoriously bad. Now throw in a hardwired desire to devour your neighbor every full moon.

[sleepyphoenixx]

That's only werewolves. Werebears for some reason are Lawful Good.
The section on becoming a lycanthrope mentions that the alignment is based on the popular perception of the animal, not the animal itself. And that it can be assigned arbitrarily.
So it's basically "magic reaches into the populations minds and sets your alignment to CE because most people think wolves are bad". Which meshes with the perception of wolves in some parts of western europe during medieval times (see the Big Bad Wolf archetype), but there are plenty of countries that have viewed wolves more positively, sometimes enough to use them as a national symbol.

So in a country that reveres wolves as symbols of strength and loyalty you'd probably get lawful neutral/good werewolves. A country that views wolves as the archetypical protector of family they'd probably be neutral/neutral good. You get the idea.
You might even get packs of lycanthropes with different alignments based on their regions of origin that way, which i think would be more interesting.