Damage resistance ... not enough?

[BB944]

Hey guys,

Just a quick thought here followed by more detail if you care to read.

Why is it that all Monsters that have a resistance or even immunity to damage from bludgeon, piercing, and/or slashing ALWAYS take full damage from ‘magical’ weapons? Shouldn’t the more powerful monsters (TARRASQUE, Major Demons/Devils, Ancient Dragons….) have the ability to be immune to that damage type and resistant to it if it came from a magical weapon?
What do you guys think??? Am I missing something in terms of balance?



-------------------Long winded version below-------------------


I always felt this to be, well... dumb. I would rather see it in a sort of tiers
Resistant vs non magical
Resistant vs all
Immune to non-magical, resistant vs magical.


This whole thing came to being because I am planning on my party of 8, 11th level heroes to encounter (and not win, but escape) a Goristro in a maze. Noting that he still will take FULL damage from my heroes ... and they have easily dropped more than 300 HP in DMG in one round... they should not have a chance vs a CR 17 monster... but based on the damage resistance .. They do. And since one is a illusionist, another is a Sorc .... they have pretty good one at that. My only hope was the Goristro to 'Tank' and 'save' till he killed a few of them for not running when they had the chance. But if he is going to be taking full damage from a Ranger with 20 +1 arrows, a OotA Paladin, a Fighter, and a Totem Barb.... this is well... not going to end well. Especially if they land a 'save or suck' spell on him.

My thought is to suggest a house rule that states the following:
If a monster has a greater than … say … CR15 (or it just makes sense like a golem) they should be resistant to those damage types even if the type is Magical.
And if they have an immunity to non-magical versions of that damage, then should be resistant to the magical types, not normal Damage.

[PhoenixPhyre]

I'd have to think about the suggestion, but one problem with the specific situation is that solo monsters always die fast due to action economy. If that demon has allies, the party will get seriously hurt or killed. Alone he's a punching bag.

[Seafarer]

I registered to say that this:



This whole thing came to being because I am planning on my party of 8, 11th level heroes to encounter ... they should not have a chance vs a CR 17 monster...

...is just straight-up wrong. A CR 17 monster is worth 18,000 XP. You have 8 characters, so that's 2,250 XP per character, putting it at a high-Medium-difficulty encounter. Then there's the fact that it's a single monster against a party of more than 5 PCs - that means you have to halve its effective XP value for that party. This puts it as an Easy encounter for that party.

If you want to change monsters to have damage resistances that the PCs are less likely to have the tools to overcome, you need to recalculate their CR to compensate. This isn't an issue for the goristro, by the way - it's high-enough CR that multiple resistances don't actually affect its effective HP for CR - but if you change anything below that challenge, you'd need to consider it before using the monster, otherwise it could throw off difficulty calculations.

[BW022]

Why is it that all Monsters that have a resistance or even immunity to damage from bludgeon, piercing, and/or slashing ALWAYS take full damage from ‘magical’ weapons?


Because it is simple. It avoids the 3.x issues where you had all sorts of bizarre combinations, rulings and complex math, fighters having to carry around golf bags of weapons, martial types unable to damage creatures while spell casters had no problems, etc. It also assumes that magical weapons are rare and that you can't realistically expect folks to have all sorts of types of magic weapons.

You are free to add any additional restrictions, but realize it isn't likely to make the game any more enjoyable. It just means that martial characters are even more disadvantaged vs. higher CR monsters vs. spell casters or else you'd better be willing to give a ton of magical weapons to players.

[BB944]

I registered to say that this:



...is just straight-up wrong. A CR 17 monster is worth 18,000 XP. You have 8 characters, so that's 2,250 XP per character, putting it at a high-Medium-difficulty encounter. Then there's the fact that it's a single monster against a party of more than 5 PCs - that means you have to halve its effective XP value for that party. This puts it as an Easy encounter for that party.

If you want to change monsters to have damage resistances that the PCs are less likely to have the tools to overcome, you need to recalculate their CR to compensate. This isn't an issue for the goristro, by the way - it's high-enough CR that multiple resistances don't actually affect its effective HP for CR - but if you change anything below that challenge, you'd need to consider it before using the monster, otherwise it could throw off difficulty calculations.

I guess I don't quite understand that relation to Party size to CR ... and I intended there to 10 fiendish minotaurs (same stats just immune to poison and resistant to fire, CR4 instead of 3)

But I have read a few times that a CR represents a challenging encounter to a party of 4 of the same level. So... double the Party and they should be able to go toe to toe with a CR 16? (CR 11 = 7,200xp and CR16 = 15,000) Just making sure I understand correctly? And if it is just one monster ... they can take on a CR 20? wait what?

[Seafarer]

I guess I don't quite understand that relation to Party size to CR ... and I intended there to 10 fiendish minotaurs (same stats just immune to poison and resistant to fire, CR4 instead of 3)

But I have read a few times that a CR represents a challenging encounter to a party of 4 of the same level. So... double the Party and they should be able to go toe to toe with a CR 16? (CR 11 = 7,200xp and CR16 = 15,000) Just making sure I understand correctly? And if it is just one monster ... they can take on a CR 20? wait what?

Equal CR in 5E is meant to be a Medium encounter for a party of four PCs. I suggest you read through pages 82-83 of the DMG, if possible, to give you a better idea of how encounter balance works.

EDIT: Adding minotaurs should go a fair way to evening the odds. Numbers are worth more than single chunks of HP in 5E.
EDIT again: I have too much time on my hands, so I ran the calculations. 10 CR 4 monsters and 1 CR 17 total 29,000 XP. There are 11 monsters total, which would normally mean you multiply that by 3, but since you have more than 5 PCs, you use the next multiplier down - x2.5. 72,500/8 = 9062.5 XP per PC - well into Deadly for 11th level. That's more what you want, although keep in mind that if you let them blow a full day's resources on the encounter, they still have a decent chance of winning.
EDIT yet again: How bad am I at this? Bad. Changed the numbers in the above to be correct this time.

[JackPhoenix]

While I won't explain how encounter building guidelines from DMG work, I present you with http://kobold.club/fight/#/encounter-builder, great tool for building encounters or checking how difficult the encounter you've build is expected to be. One goristro is indeed easy challenge for 8 level 11 characters, if you add 10 CR 4 enemies, it's about 3x deadly challenge for the same party (though if the minotaurs really are worthy of CR 4 depends if the party is actually affected by the change from standard minotaurs, i.e. uses poison and fire damage). If not, it's about 2x deadly challenge.

[BB944]

Equal CR in 5E is meant to be a Medium encounter for a party of four PCs. I suggest you read through pages 82-83 of the DMG, if possible, to give you a better idea of how encounter balance works.

EDIT: Adding minotaurs should go a fair way to evening the odds. Numbers are worth more than single chunks of HP in 5E.
EDIT again: I have too much time on my hands, so I ran the calculations. 8 CR 4 monsters and 1 CR 17 total 29,000 XP. There are 9 monsters total, which would normally mean you multiply that by 2.5, but since you have more than 5 PCs, you use the next multiplier down - x2. 58,000/8 = 7250 XP per PC - well into Deadly for 11th level. That's more what you want, although keep in mind that if you let them blow a full day's resources on the encounter, they still have a decent chance of winning.

Yup just read it out... and I think i will have refine my maze to include wandering Monsters and lots of hints of how to escape rather than defeat him... but as they say with enough treasure, and "a chance" adventurers can become rather cocky.

And I see the point of simplicity .. I do... and have for some time. still confuses me. We had another demon encounter earlier and the Nalfeshnee (they were only level 9) got dropped from two rounds of focus from our archer. That was not to mention the 5 Barlguras and the 4 Hezru's ... plus a bunch of Manes.... I meant that encounter to be hard (and it was, critically hurt two of them).. but the speed that they dropped the CR13 bothered me.

[Erys]

Why is it that all Monsters that have a resistance or even immunity to damage from bludgeon, piercing, and/or slashing ALWAYS take full damage from ‘magical’ weapons?

Outside what others have already mentioned about properly working CR in 5th... this statement is also incorrect.

See Demilich for details.

[Decstarr]

You are the DM, so you can give your monsters any resistancy/immunity you want to give them. I'd suggest though that you plan for at least 3 different ways that the party could still take out the baddie by smart usage of terrain e.g or any other way - at least 3 coz, well, you know, players NEVER understand what DMs expect them to do, or don't care :P
Nothing is more frustrating than the PCs blowing their load, trying out different attacks to no effect and then someone of them dies. It also depends entirely of the setting: If so far they got to level 11 in a cake walk, it would be entirely unfair to confront them with a battle that demands all of their capabilities AND good rolls on top.

Also keep in mind that the game is supposed to be about resource management and therefore, like others mentioned already, treat the CR with caution. A fully stocked nova-power-gaming party of 4 Pala/Sorc MCs around level 10 could probably 1 round quite a lot of the monsters that technically would be deadly for them. But if they had to walk through a hard dungeon already and use most of their spell slots and sorcery points, they'd possibly be in for a TPK. Also I am unsure how much it'll do to simply put some aides to the BBEG's side if it is still just one encounter and the party is fully stocked since they could technically just ignore the minions and nova the mobster to then deal with the footfolk. But that of course depends entirely on party composition.

In general, if you feel like supposedly big enemies seem too weak, either have the party fight several battles without a chance to go full rest before the final encounter OR make your baddies to be of the "reoccurring type". Maybe the baddie escapes on his last breath and when he returns, he has learned what the party can do from the first fight and this time is better prepared (with resistances/items/spells etc)?

[Bahamut7]

Why is it that all Monsters that have a resistance or even immunity to damage from bludgeon, piercing, and/or slashing ALWAYS take full damage from ‘magical’ weapons? Shouldn’t the more powerful monsters (TARRASQUE, Major Demons/Devils, Ancient Dragons….) have the ability to be immune to that damage type and resistant to it if it came from a magical weapon?
What do you guys think??? Am I missing something in terms of balance?

The best way to understand this is actually quite simple. Imagine for a second that these supernatural beasts that have resistance or outright immunities, do so because of their inherent magic. A dire Wolf is stronger than a wolf for example. So let's take a look at a Skeleton and examine how this plays out.

An Animated Skeleton is inherently magical (duh). It's "body" makeup reduces the effectiveness of piercing and slashing weapons. Physically there are no Organs to pierce or flesh to slash. Bludgeoning weapons are able to physically hit these guys reliably. So how does a magic Slashing or Piercing weapon succeed where a mundane failed? Easy, the magical property of the weapon enable you to hit the Magic itself that is animating the skeleton. The true life force of the creature. The mundane staff or mace can physically break apart the creature so it is able to keep up in this case with the magical weapons.

As for higher tier creatures, I can understand your perspective, but in this system Magic Items are rarer and these creatures would be more of a threat as is. Plus, when you do acquire an enchanted blade that lets your fighting style finally be successful, it is more satisfying as a player and character.

As a DM you can always tweak creatures to your campaign specifications so long as you inform the players ahead of time the type of differences. For example, when I ran a 4e campaign I had restructured the resistance and vulnerability to surprisingly match what they decided on in 5e as I felt it made more sense, plus it rewarded players who built up enough resistance to actually be healed by elemental magic.

[Tanarii]

Also keep in mind that the game is supposed to be about resource management and therefore, like others mentioned already, treat the CR with caution.
Yeah, this is really importent to keep in mind. The game is balanced for approximately 3 Deadly to 16 Easy encounters per Long Rest, with two Short rests in between. Or some mix of encounters that is the equivalent. If your party isn't facing that in a day, the overall adventuring day won't be very difficult.

Also take into account that while non-combat encounters are encounters (challenges) too, if they aren't going to require any resources to bypass at best they're Easy encounters.

[Talionis]

If you make monsters more powerful recalculate the CR. Duh.

But to your real question I agree with your premise that if Monsters are resistant to some forms of damage being Magical shouldn't invalidate the resistance.

I think the reason Magic trumps the damage type is simple. Magic items are real rewards and rare and martial characters should be able to use their go to weapon most of the time. Having to have three different magic weapons is more than most campaigns give.

From a game standpoint WotC wants to allow your magic weapon to be your default weapon.

With that concept in mind do what you think is fun.

[Malifice]

Dude. 8 x 11th level PCs vs a single CR 17 is an 'easy' encounter.

They should wipe the floor with it, even more so if it's the only encounter of the adventuring day.

[Malifice]

Sounds like you're doing encounter difficulty and challenge ratings totally wrong. You're probably not policing the adventuring day either.

In any event if you want an appropriate solo deadly challenge, I suggest bumping the Goristro to CR 25 or thereabouts.

Double its HD and HP, increase its AC and proficiency bonus (attacks, skills and saves and DCs) by +3, and increase all damage dice for it's attacks by one die step per dice.

Grant it 2 legendary resistances and 2 legendary actions (either a fist attack or 20' movement + gore but not the same action 2/ row).

Maybe add a 'terrifying bellow' ability as well - usable as a bonus action. DC 18 wisdom save or be frightened, failure by 5 or more and be stunned. New save at the end of each turn to end the effect. Successful save renders you immune for 24 hours.

At an eyeball that places it in the deadly encounter area.

[Cespenar]

Adding 2 minotaurs to the Goristro puts it barely above Deadly, which would be a more reasonable fight than the punchbag fight that would be a lone Goristro.

Though if your party is as optimized as you make them to be, make it 6 to 10 minotaurs instead, especially if it's their only encounter that day.

[Malifice]

Adding 2 minotaurs to the Goristro puts it barely above Deadly, which would be a more reasonable fight than the punchbag fight that would be a lone Goristro.

Though if your party is as optimized as you make them to be, make it 6 to 10 minotaurs instead, especially if it's their only encounter that day.

I would have a few encounters of groups of minotaurs, a couple of traps, Golems bursting out of walls, a darkened area of the maze with shadow Demons and shadow mastiffs in it, and then the fight with the gloristro (Converted to be a more appropriate challenge by adding CR and upping its proficiency bonus armour class and hit dice, and adding legendary actions and legendary saves).

This would all be done in a framework where the party at 24 hours to escape the maze or else they are trapped in it for ever. Each short rest has a 25% chance of triggering an encounter with another group of Minotaurs, and a 5% chance of the goristro finding them.

[JackPhoenix]

The best way to understand this is actually quite simple. Imagine for a second that these supernatural beasts that have resistance or outright immunities, do so because of their inherent magic. A dire Wolf is stronger than a wolf for example. So let's take a look at a Skeleton and examine how this plays out.

An Animated Skeleton is inherently magical (duh). It's "body" makeup reduces the effectiveness of piercing and slashing weapons. Physically there are no Organs to pierce or flesh to slash. Bludgeoning weapons are able to physically hit these guys reliably. So how does a magic Slashing or Piercing weapon succeed where a mundane failed? Easy, the magical property of the weapon enable you to hit the Magic itself that is animating the skeleton. The true life force of the creature. The mundane staff or mace can physically break apart the creature so it is able to keep up in this case with the magical weapons.

That's kinda bad example, because skeleton isn't resistant to piercing or slashing damage, but vulnerable to bludgeoning damage. And immune to poison, because duh.