A Few Epic Spells

[JNAProductions]

Note: When there's a type separated by slashes, they're not all in the same spell. They're different spells.

Armor I
Seed: Armor (DC 14)
Seed Modifiers: Alchemical/Circumstance/Competence/Deflection/Dodge/Enhancement/Insight/Luck/Morale/Profane/Racial/Sacred +18 (+180)
Casting Time: 1 Action (+20)
Seed: Heal (DC 25)
Backlash: 42d6 (-42)
XP Burn: 20,000 XP (-200)
Effects: +4 NA or Armor, +18 Alchemical/Circumstance/Competence/Deflection/Dodge/Enhancement/Insight/Luck/Morale/Profane/Racial/Sacred Bonus

Armor II
Seed: Armor (DC 14)
Seed Modifiers: +95 total (+182)
Casting Time: 1 Action (+20)
Seed: Heal (DC 25)
Backlash: 42d6 (-42)
XP Burn: 20,000 XP (-200)
Effects: +95 NA or Armor

Concealment I
Seed: Conceal (DC 17)
Seed Modifiers: Lasts no matter what actions are taken (+4)
Casting Time: 1 Action (+20)
Seed: Heal (DC 25)
Backlash: 42d6 (-42)
XP Burn: 20,000 XP (-200)
Effects: Permanent Invisibility.

Concealment II
Seed: Conceal (DC 17)
Seed Modifiers: 50% Miss Chance (+2)
Casting Time: 1 Action (+20)
Seed: Heal (DC 25)
Backlash: 42d6 (-42)
XP Burn: 20,000 XP (-200)
Effects: Permanent 50% miss chance, just in case they have See Invisibility.

Concealment III
Seed: Conceal (DC 17)
Seed Modifiers: Divination Blocking (+6)
Casting Time: 1 Action (+20)
Seed: Heal (DC 25)
Backlash: 42d6 (-42)
XP Burn: 20,000 XP (-200)
Effects: Immune to all non-Epic divination. Epic divination requires an opposed caster check.

Because You Need Friends...
Seed: Contact (DC 23)
Seed Modifiers: Ignore Language (+4)
Casting Time: 1 Action (+20)
Seed: Heal (DC 25)
Backlash: 42d6 (-42)
XP Burn: 20,000 XP (-200)
Effect: Makes a permanent mental link to a friend. Even works if they somehow lose all language.

Aura Of Elemental Doom
Seed: Energy (DC 19)
Seed Modifiers: Aura of Acid/Fire/Electricity/Cold/Sonic 5d6 (+6)
Casting Time: 1 Action (+20)
Duration: Dismissable (+2)
Duration: Permanent (X5)
Backlash: 42d6 (-42)
XP Burn: 20,000 XP (-200)
Effect: Generates an aura of 5d6 damage of the appropriate type.

Ward I
Seed: Ward (DC 14)
Seed Modifier: 188 total resistance to Bludgeoning/Slashing/Piercing/Cold/Fire/Sonic/Lightning/Acid (+183)
Casting Time: 1 Action (+20)
Seed: Heal (DC 25)
Backlash: 42d6 (-42)
XP Burn: 20,000 XP (-200)
Effect: The first 183 points of damage from each type of damage is resisted each turn.

Ward II
Seed: Ward (DC 14)
Seed Modifier: 9th level spells resisted (+180)
Casting Time: 1 Action (+20)
Seed: Heal (DC 25)
Backlash: 42d6 (-42)
XP Burn: 20,000 XP (-200)
Effect: The target is immune to 9th a lower level spells.

[MisterKaws]

Why are you actively making your life harder by adding a useless modifier to your spell? You don't need to cast them as a Standard action when they're permanent. Might as well slow them down to 10 minutes and get an easier time and far less costs.

Also, you don't really need to bring the DCs down so much. I'd assume the XP cost would be harder to replenish than the GP cost, so that's not a reason to do that either. As long as your dc is no more than 1 point above your total Spellcraft modifier, it will auto-succeed.

[JNAProductions]

Because you can't apply Supernatural Spell to anything with a casting time of more than one action. ;)

[MisterKaws]

Because you can't apply Supernatural Spell to anything with a casting time of more than one action. ;)

Make an Ice Assassin of yourself and you don't need to worry about xp costs, nor do you need to make them permanent. You can easily make spells last around a week with a +20 modifier, then just re-cast them(from your Ice Assassin's spell slots) every weekend. Dispose of the Ice Assassin afterwards if you're feeling paranoid.

[Mordaedil]

Make an Ice Assassin of yourself and you don't need to worry about xp costs

Curious, what DM lets you get away with this? I would dock you the XP that your Ice Assassin is using. As far as I'm concerned, you share a dock of XP and an Ice Assassin made for another NPC cannot use XP cost spells.

[Caelestion]

Because you can't apply Supernatural Spell to anything with a casting time of more than one action. ;)

If you really think that a GM would be foolish enough to let you get away with such an obvious rules oversight, then your game has far bigger problems than these.

Besides which, epic spells specifically are not spells for which you require spell slots, so the Dweomerkeeper's ability wouldn't apply.

Moreover, your Armour spells are just wrong. You add +2 per point of armour over 4, or +10 for each +1 of other types of AC bonus.

[Zanos]

For non-instantaneous spells you take backlash damage every round until the spell ends, so you don't actually want to cast any of these unless you're cool with taking 147 irresistible damage average per round per spell forever.


The caster cannot somehow avoid or make him or her self immune to backlash damage. For spells with durations longer than instantaneous, the backlash damage is per round. If backlash damage kills a caster, no spell or method exists that will return life to the caster’s body without costing the caster a level—not even wish, true resurrection, miracle, or Epic spells that return life to the deceased. Spells that normally penalize the recipient one level when they return him or her to life penalize a caster killed by backlash two levels.

The more popular method for permanent epic spell buffs is long casting times and binding or otherwise creating casters to contribute more spell slots. A spell that takes 100 days to cast has a DC modifier of -220, for example. As an epic caster, you make your own time.


Besides which, epic spells specifically are not spells for which you require spell slots, so the Dweomerkeeper's ability wouldn't apply.
...No? There's epic spell slots. You get 1 epic spell slot per 10 ranks in the relevant knowledge skill. Not that Supernatural Spell only works for prepared spellcasters anyway.

[JNAProductions]

Ah. There goes 42 of my Mitigation.

Hrm.

[Caelestion]

...No? There's epic spell slots. You get 1 epic spell slot per 10 ranks in the relevant knowledge skill.

Ah, so they do. Mea culpa. It's still a totally laughable idea, of course.

[Schattenbach]

1-Action casting time with additional casters both providing spellslots and - theoretically - burning EXP (i.e. up to 20,000 EXP per additional caster for DC Migiation of 200 each) is perfectly possible as far as I can tell. When using supernatural spell, one could argue that those casters don't actually need to burn those EXP (though they should - at least theoretically - be high-level enough to actually be able to pay those EXP). It also gets a lot easier to get high-level characters to participate if they don't have to waste 100 days or more for your ritual to finish.

[Bronk]

Ah. There goes 42 of my Mitigation.

Hrm.

The best way to make a long lasting epic spell buff isn't to make it permanent, which can be dispelled, but to just include the 'heal' seed, to make the spell instantaneous.

[icefractal]

If you're ok with cheese - which I think most GMs would consider using Supernatural Spell this way to be - then additional participants is the mitigating factor you want. Make a bunch of Simulacra, have them all contribute spell slots, and the sky is the limit - or rather, there is no limit how much you can reduce the DC, and a few hundred points is pretty easy.

Also, you very much need protective measures vs Disjunction and other dispelling, else all your epic buffs just blow away in the wind.

If you have access, the Mythal seed can do some extremely good stuff.

[JNAProductions]

Where is the mythal seed found?

[Bronk]

Where is the mythal seed found?

It's in Lost Empires of Faerun, page 44.

[remetagross]

I've heard time and again that epic spellcasting is broken. Are there any quick-and-dirty fixes around to help with that? Since this very thread shows that mitigation in excess makes a number of epic spells trivially easy to research, do you guys think something along the lines of "mitigation cannot reduce an epic spell's Spellcraft DC by more than half" or something along those lines might do the trick?

[Zanos]

I've heard time and again that epic spellcasting is broken. Are there any quick-and-dirty fixes around to help with that? Since this very thread shows that mitigation in excess makes a number of epic spells trivially easy to research, do you guys think something along the lines of "mitigation cannot reduce an epic spell's Spellcraft DC by more than half" or something along those lines might do the trick?
I would take a look at the printed epic spells and think "is this spell effect really worth millions of gold and thousands and thousands of experience"? The answer is probably not, as doing anything non-abusive with epic spells is extraordinarily expensive. Fixing epic spells would require an intelligent rebalance of modifiers.

I've seen some people use a minimum spellcraft DC equal to the base DC of the seeds, but that still lets you mitigate every seed down to a minimum, if at least existent, cost. I would probably just let people use the rules for designing spells and then assign the spellcraft DC and Gold/Xp/Time costs yourself. Nobody is going to cast a printed epic spell anyway, so you've got to review it.

[Caelestion]

Well, you could, but there are easier methods, like saying you can't use obvious fromage to avoid paying XP costs (just like you can't mitigate backlash damage in any way). You can also mandate that you can't make a spell that would cause you to lose a level from XP loss, that you can't use simulacra to provide spell slots and other blatantly obvious ways to make your GM say 'no' as fast as possible.

Alternatively, you as the GM make the epic spells to your liking from ideas provided by the players and then present them to the players as viable research options.

[Zanos]

Well, you could, but there are easier methods, like saying you can't use obvious fromage to avoid paying XP costs (just like you can't mitigate backlash damage in any way). You can also mandate that you can't make a spell that would cause you to lose a level from XP loss, that you can't use simulacra to provide spell slots and other blatantly obvious ways to make your GM say 'no' as fast as possible.

Alternatively, you as the GM make the epic spells to your liking from ideas provided by the players and then present them to the players as viable research options.
The issue with this is that epic spells are basically unusable without mitigation abuse. Hellball, for example, has a spellcraft DC of 90(810,000 gp; 17 days; 32,400 XP) and the user still takes 10d6 backlash damage and loses 200 xp.

[Caelestion]

I quite agree, which is why I also suggested that that he write his own spells from what his players request and be done with it.

[JNAProductions]

Made most of the spells instantaneous.

[Caelestion]

So, other than the fact that you've now gated all those spells behind needing 24+ ranks in Knowledge Religion, what do all the Healing seeds actually do in your spells? Moreover, instantaneous spells aren't quite the same as permanent spells, as I'm sure you well know.

[JNAProductions]

Don't assume-I can be very dumb sometimes.

An instantaneous spell happens once, has its effect, and is done-the effect can remain, but the magic is gone.

A permanent spell always has its magic there.

[Jack_Simth]

Don't assume-I can be very dumb sometimes.

An instantaneous spell happens once, has its effect, and is done-the effect can remain, but the magic is gone.

A permanent spell always has its magic there.
Consider a Wall of Stone: It's an Instant spell. But the wall is still there after the magic is gone.
Consider Flesh to Stone: It's an Instant spell. But the target is still a statue after the magic is gone.
Consider Resurrection: It's an Instant spell. But the person is still alive after the magic is gone.

The general idea of that bit of optimization is that because for some reason Heal is the base seed, the whole thing is Instant, and thus, lasts forever in the same sense that a Wall of Stone, Flesh to Stone, or Resurrection does.

I tend not to cotton to that particular interpretation, generally, for things that are... well, your list makes a nice example.

[JNAProductions]

Consider a Wall of Stone: It's an Instant spell. But the wall is still there after the magic is gone.
Consider Flesh to Stone: It's an Instant spell. But the target is still a statue after the magic is gone.
Consider Resurrection: It's an Instant spell. But the person is still alive after the magic is gone.

The general idea of that bit of optimization is that because for some reason Heal is the base seed, the whole thing is Instant, and thus, lasts forever in the same sense that a Wall of Stone, Flesh to Stone, or Resurrection does.

I tend not to cotton to that particular interpretation, generally, for things that are... well, your list makes a nice example.

I'm glad I can be a good example of a raging cheesemonger. :P

[Jack_Simth]

I'm glad I can be a good example of a raging cheesemonger. :P

Well, that's not why. Generally, if I'm going to be building an epic spell, I'm going to be mitigating with ritual participants (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?10240-Calling-all-Munchkins-Epic-Spell-Challenge&p=791074&viewfull=1#post791074).

Consider Armor I:
What's the Heal seed doing there, exactly? The only reason it's there is for the duration. That's it. However, when you look at the definition of a base seed, the development section (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/developingEpicSpells.htm) says "The seed most important to the spell’s overall purpose is the base seed" - the overall purpose is the AC boosting from the Armor Seed, not anything Heal puts into the mix.

Fortunately for you, I'm not the one you have to convince. Your DM is.

[Zanos]

Well, that's not why. Generally, if I'm going to be building an epic spell, I'm going to be mitigating with ritual participants (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?10240-Calling-all-Munchkins-Epic-Spell-Challenge&p=791074&viewfull=1#post791074).

Consider Armor I:
What's the Heal seed doing there, exactly? The only reason it's there is for the duration. That's it. However, when you look at the definition of a base seed, the development section (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/developingEpicSpells.htm) says "The seed most important to the spell’s overall purpose is the base seed" - the overall purpose is the AC boosting from the Armor Seed, not anything Heal puts into the mix.

Fortunately for you, I'm not the one you have to convince. Your DM is.
The duration section says:

Combining Durations
When combining two or more seeds to develop an epic spell, the seed with the shortest duration determines the duration of the finished epic spell. If any seed of an epic spell is dismissible by the caster, the epic spell is dismissible.

Base seed doesn't matter.

[Jack_Simth]

The duration section says:


Base seed doesn't matter.

Ah, sorry. "Shortened" to forever. You sure that works?

Besides: Forsee is cheaper.

[Calthropstu]

... A permanent 5d6 damage aura.

Do you realize how stupid that is? Do you never want to have sentient interaction ever again (unless you somehow make people immune)?

Wheee... let's walk downtown and KILL EVERYONE! Tends to attract unwanted attention. Even CE characters would refrain from this because it's simply stupid... and at epic levels, anything you'd be challenged by would simply ignore it.

[JNAProductions]

That one is dismissable. For obvious reasons.

It's more for hoard maintenance.

[Zanos]

Ah, sorry. "Shortened" to forever. You sure that works?
Nope.


Besides: Forsee is cheaper.
Yes, and also doesn't make it a divine only spell.


... A permanent 5d6 damage aura.

Do you realize how stupid that is? Do you never want to have sentient interaction ever again (unless you somehow make people immune)?

Wheee... let's walk downtown and KILL EVERYONE! Tends to attract unwanted attention. Even CE characters would refrain from this because it's simply stupid... and at epic levels, anything you'd be challenged by would simply ignore it.
This is an epic spellcaster. They have no need to walk down the same streets as peasants who don't have immunity to every form of element. I suppose resist 30 to all elements would work too if you don't mind mingling with the lesser folk.

Even if they did need to they can just use proxies for that. Which is smart anyway.

[Calthropstu]

Nope.


Yes, and also doesn't make it a divine only spell.


This is an epic spellcaster. They have no need to walk down the same streets as peasants who don't have immunity to every form of element. I suppose resist 30 to all elements would work too if you don't mind mingling with the lesser folk.

Even if they did need to they can just use proxies for that. Which is smart anyway.

Spoken like someone with no soul. If that's how you feel, you may as eell suicide at that point. Look at Elminster... he regularly goes out, meets people, has fun... and when he is done adventuring heads back to his home and whiles away the hours with his favorite pipe. Similarly, MOST epic spellcasters are like that... at least ones who haven't turned themselves into liches or gone completely mad.
Even Manshoon went out and about from time to time. High level dragons polymorph into humans and traverse cities.

I have spent days cooped up in my room before... and I go stir crazy every time. That wouldn't change if I gained supreme powers. Ultimately, what the hell is the point of gaining major power if all you are going to do is stay in a pocket dimension all the time?

[Caelestion]

I'm glad I can be a good example of a raging cheesemonger. :P

So you've gone from abusing a very specific non-epic prestige class to cheese epic spells (something that I'm sure that the Goddess of Magic has *no* opinion on whatsoever) to simply abusing the very concept of instantaneous spells. All this with a 20th level plus full caster who's already won the game if they wish.

Why exactly are you bothering? Other than showing people on a forum that you're prepared to wildly abuse an already broken system, that is. As a GM you don't need to and as a player, if your GM is that compliant, you *really* don't need to.

[Zanos]

Spoken like someone with no soul.
I'm an epic spellcaster, why would I need a soul? I can just make them anyway. Look, there's a whole pile of the damn things in the corner!

[JNAProductions]

So you've gone from abusing a very specific non-epic prestige class to cheese epic spells (something that I'm sure that the Goddess of Magic has *no* opinion on whatsoever) to simply abusing the very concept of instantaneous spells. All this with a 20th level plus full caster who's already won the game if they wish.

Why exactly are you bothering? Other than showing people on a forum that you're prepared to wildly abuse an already broken system, that is. As a GM you don't need to and as a player, if your GM is that compliant, you *really* don't need to.

Well, after talking with my DM, he did the sensible thing and said "HELL NO!" Or at least, hell no to doing it for effectively free. Supernatural Spell would not work to negate the XP cost, although I could Thought Bottle it away.

And I enjoy making stuff munckiny and cheesy. While I'm no great optimizer (I'm sure people can find a way to do this at, say, level 7 or something, in addition to doing it better) it's fun to think about.

[Caelestion]

Fair enough, but I should point out that even if you set aside the whole thing with instantaneous spells not being permanent spells, they can't be dismissed or dispelled because (conventionally) they're no longer in existence. If they were equal, that aura spell can't be dismissed (and if it's of a permanent duration, I'm not sure whether dismissing it ends the spell for good) and those Concealment spells essentially turn you into Griffin from H.G. Wells' The Invisible Man.

Two other things of note: you can only spend a maximum of 10,000 xp per epic spell and thought bottles only allow you to reset your experience total if you have lost a level in the meantime.

[JNAProductions]

The Aura spells are permanent, not instantaneous. For good reason.

And yeah, were I to use these in play, I'd likely make the Concealment spells dismissable, or alternatively, research a Reveal spell to use on myself for when I want to be seen.

[Caelestion]

You may have missed my later edit. It was using a Conceal spell. :smallwink:

I'd also plan on getting your GM under the influence of something so that he doesn't realise that your "instantaneous" spells are anything but.

[JNAProductions]

Fair enough, but I should point out that even if you set aside the whole thing with instantaneous spells not being permanent spells, they can't be dismissed or dispelled because (conventionally) they're no longer in existence. If they were equal, that aura spell can't be dismissed (and if it's of a permanent duration, I'm not sure whether dismissing it ends the spell for good) and those Concealment spells essentially turn you into Griffin from H.G. Wells' The Invisible Man.

Two other things of note: you can only spend a maximum of 10,000 xp per epic spell and thought bottles only allow you to reset your experience total if you have lost a level in the meantime.

The epic level handbook I have says 20,000. And, more importantly, the ELH my DM has says that.

[Caelestion]

How odd. Mine clearly says 10,000 xp.

[Zanos]

Two other things of note: you can only spend a maximum of 10,000 xp per epic spell and thought bottles only allow you to reset your experience total if you have lost a level in the meantime.
The cap for XP burn on an epic spell is 20,000 as listed in the development rules, and thought bottles have no such rule that you can only use them if you lose a level. Even if they did, you could just level drain yourself before accessing it.

[Caelestion]

Thought bottles prevent level loss as per the restoration spell. It specifically doesn't say that they trigger on crafting items or spending xp for spell-casting.

And yes, you could level drain yourself to trigger the thought bottle and recoup the xp you spent on the epic spell, but at that point the GM's clearly allowing such shenanigans to happen, so why is he even insisting on following the normal rules?

[Zanos]

Thought bottles prevent level loss as per the restoration spell. It specifically doesn't say that they trigger on crafting items or spending xp for spell-casting.
The effect is different from restoration, even though it does cite the spell:

Experience: A thought bottle can be used to offset level loss as a restoration spell can, but is effective against level loss that even restoration can’t undo (including levels lost due to death, but not the negative levels bestowed by magic items such as a holy weapon). When a user’s experience has been stored within the bottle, he can subsequently access the bottle to restore his XP total to exactly what it was when it was last stored, negating any levels lost in the interim. Storing experience in the bottle is difficult, and the user must pay 500 XP (deducted before storing) to do so. Only the creature that stored experience can retrieve it, but if the bottle is destroyed or lost, the user suffers no ill effects.
There's nothing that says that only a creature with level loss can activate a thought bottle, and restoration itself also isn't limited to being cast on targets who have lost levels.

[Caelestion]

It also implies that you're physically placing your xp in the bottle and thus (one might assume) can't spend xp on spells, but hey.

JNA's GM appears to be fine with instantaneous spells having a permanent duration and with arbitrary amounts of xp costs merely being 500 xp loss and a thought bottle, so again I'm wondering why he's going to all this effort (other than for fun, of course) when his GM seems quite happy with him wailing on the game however he sees fit.