Banishment...what's the big deal?

[JellyPooga]

So as not to derail another thread, thought I'd post my thoughts here instead.


I still don't get why Banishment is so highly regarded. It's Concentration, only lasts up to a minute and doesn't actually solve any problems except where fighting one less guy is of use. You still have to fight the target when the spell expires; that or have to deal with him chasing you and/or warning his other buds. Vs. outsiders, you still have to maintain concentration for it to stick, making it a PitA kill-switch and even then if they're halfway powerful (you know, like most targets of Banishment probably are), it's a safe bet they're going to come looking for the guy that moderately inconvenienced them by sending them home.

On top of that (which is something that's often overlooked I think), the material component is "something distasteful to the target"...for a Vampire or Werewolf or other target vulnerable to a widely known object or substance, this isn't too hard to figure out, but what does a Balor find distastful? A Dragon? How about the BBEG's right hand man spellslinger? Sure you could carry around some generically distasteful things, but what guarantees have you got that it's actually going to work and...well...if it's distasteful to a wide range of targets...do you really want to be lugging it around in a belt pouch "just in case"? Yes, you can get around it by using a spellcasting focus, but it's an interesting conundrum for those spellslingers that don't use one.


For Banishment, there are a few reasons that it sticks out. First, it is a Charisma saving throw, which is a great boon since many enemies worth using it on have Wisdom save proficiency since that is the most common. There is no repeat saving throw, so unless someone is breaking the concentration it becomes a hard control. It also either fully banishes an extra-dimensional target, or it leaves them incapacitated and so unable to even Ready an action for when it comes back. Effectively, you can use it to perform a barrage of Readied actions while the target cannot respond. Just have everyone Ready until you bring them back, wait till the target's initiative count is passed, unleash hell when you drop concentration, then everyone gets their regular options on their turns.

As for the material component, either it is unnecessary (focus) or you presumably have a variety of items that are hated by different entities.

So basically, I'm still not convinced.

For one, the "ready a bunch of actions" thing really only applies to lone targets. That or you have to win a fight within 1 minute while maintaining concentration, so you won't be benefiting from any buffs, debuffs or control spells you might otherwise be able to use and you'll have to be avoiding damage (ideally) or *Poof!* guess who's back? I can see the use for splitting up two or three tough foes, to take them on in smaller chunks, but you're still having to maintain concentration and you're only one failed Con Save from having pretty much wasted that spell slot under those circumstances.

Charisma save being preferable? Weeeell...not really. For PC's, sure, Charisma is often a decent Save to target over Wisdom, but for monsters? Charisma is often pretty decent, especially on the kind of critters you might want to be banishing. Fiends, Celestials, Dragons, the more powerful Undead...the big, bad, lone, preferably extraplanar, probably not spellcasting (Counterspell will ruin your fun too) foe you want to get rid of for a minute? Yeah, it's got a decent chance of having high Charisma, if not a superhuman one. That's not to mention the slew of such creatures that have magic resistance or legendary resistances. One Save and you've wasted a 4th level spell slot, no second chances.

What does that leave? Low Charisma, lone targets...that's what? Beasts, Monstrosities, Constructs and some Aberrations? The sort that are tough enough to take a rounds worth of Ready actions because they're designed to take on a whole party alone anyway? Even some of those have pretty decent Charisma. Not to mention what, if any, material component such creatures might find "distasteful" if you're not using a spellcasting focus (I shudder to think :smalleek:). The pool of ideal targets for Banishment is pretty small when you think about it, considering that it's a 4th level slot; that's a pretty big investment for a spell that's got pretty dicey odds of sticking, especially with the additional and ongoing cost of your Concentration making it even more dicey.

Don't get me wrong, it's a decent enough spell. It's fairly good for separating a Leader from his Mob (though that Charisma issue raises it's head again; Leaders tend to be pretty Charismatic as a rule) or splitting up a small group of toughies to take them on one at a time, but it's hardly an auto-pick and it seems to get a lot of love that I'm just not understanding. What am I missing?

[MrFahrenheit]

As a DM, I view this spell as potentially the best in the game. Here's why:

-you get it relatively early on
-while a decent amount of monsters have good charisma, few have additional bonuses for their charisma saves
-the key to making any boss encounter challenging after the early game is to either deprive the party of rest prior to the blencounter, or throw in additional henchmen for it (and by the late game, I'd argue this becomes an "and" statement, rather than "or"). Anyhow, these henchmen - whether one or two baddies close to the BBEG's CR, a horde of low CRs, or somewhere in between, are there to aid the bad guy and delay the party from being able to focus fire. But what happens when you banish BBEG early in the combat? The minions are way easier, as BBEG isn't fighting alongside them (whether support/slinging arrows or spells...or even melee). Party can conserve their most powerful abilities till the boss reappears ten turns later, and don't have to burn through them to get past the minions and at the boss.

[tomato]

I don't think anyone bills Banishment as the best spell in the book, and as a concentration spell it certainly needs to bring a lot to the table, but sometimes you need to put the big bad Goristro in time out while the party deals with the Mummy Lord, and it's the perfect spell to do that. It's a generally good tactic to split the enemy group up to focus on them one at a time as well, and since 5e combat swings pretty heavily depending on number of enemy combatants, just taking one or two extra attacks per round off the table can be enough.

While it's not super-amazing all the time, I think it has a place next to Greater Invisibility.

[JellyPooga]

As a DM, I view this spell as potentially the best in the game.


I don't think anyone bills Banishment as the best spell in the book

Heh...this amused me. :smallbiggrin:

[solidork]

My Cleric and our Abjuration Wizard both prepare it and Banishment has been insanely good in our campaign. Part of that is luck, and part is that we're doing Princes of the Apocalypse, but still. Honestly, it's a little disappointing that we can trivialize many encounters. Details below. I'm not sure what stuff is actually part of the adventure and what is stuff my DM has added.

We went down into the part of the dungeon that contained the portal to the Plane of Fire
- Banished the fire giant. GM gave us a 50/50 chance that we was native to the material plane. He was, but we killed him before he got a chance to act.
-Completely negated encounter with a flaming roper that would have almost certainly killed at least one of us
-Negated the fight with the Djinn. We did lose the Scimitar of Speed though, which was kinda a bummer. In the future I'm going to use Command to get enemies to drop their weapons and then banish them.
-We were all set for the big showdown with the dragon when our wizard banished him (he rolled poorly and I'm not sure why he didn't have legendary resistances) and we just closed the portal and ran

For us, Counterspell has unquestionably been the best spell, but Banishment is up there with Fireball and Spirit Guardians. It's great if you cast it at a higher level and you can even use it defensively(though we haven't used it that way yet).

[tomato]

Heh...this amused me. :smallbiggrin:

I stand corrected... :P

[Beechgnome]

It also has the benefit of scaling well when you cast at higher levels. If the boss is too charismatic, as you say, try banishing three of his goons with a 6th level slot and you can focus your fire on the big guy. Surely two of them will fail the save against your spell save DC. I rarely cast it as a fourth level spell: too much all or nothing.

[NecroDancer]

You can also cast it in yourself if you need to escape a bad plane of existence that your trapped on. It can also be used to temporarily disappear for a minute (like if a a dragon is about to immolate your home).

[Millstone85]

You can also cast it in yourself if you need to escape a bad plane of existence that your trapped on. It can also be used to temporarily disappear for a minute (like if a a dragon is about to immolate your home).Your first idea should work. As for the second...

If you are on your native plane, then you are banished to a demiplane where you are incapacitated. Being incapacitated breaks your concentration, immediately bringing you back.

[Lord Il Palazzo]

Your first idea should work. As for the second...

If you are on your native plane, then you are banished to a demiplane where you are incapacitated. Being incapacitated breaks your concentration, immediately bringing you back.Incapacitated is just defined in the book as "An incapacitated creature can’t take actions or reactions." Nothing in it breaks concentration.

Edit: I was wrong. This bit is in the concentration rules rather than the condition definition itself.

[Dr.Samurai]

Using your concentration to temporarily remove enemies from the encounter seems like a good trade-off to me.

[WickerNipple]

Heh...this amused me. :smallbiggrin:

Me too, was my morning giggle. Thanks thread!

[Specter]

It's a great spell for two types of encounters: those with only one monster (a la Strahd) so that everyone gets an 'extra turn', or those with a boss and his henchmen around. It's usually not hard for the party to dispose of henchmen when the boss is away, so suddenly the tough fight is split in two easier ones. For this, you need to be good at keeping concentration and have solid defenses.

Anywhere else, it's not that good.

[DireSickFish]

It was one of my most consistently useful spells as a Sorcerer that focused on save or suck spells and heighten spell. I'd upcast it to clear rooms of bearded devils. And it takes out CR5 elementals easy as can be, and those things can be a drain on resources even if they are lower CR than the group.

It also allows escape. We poofed a big bad golem then just used the 1min to run away further into the dungeon. Or do the Readied action salvo trick everyone mentions.

In a hostage situation you can cast it on the hostage to bring the fight to them and keep the hostage safe.

In an edition where save or die effects basically don't exist, and control spells have been limited. Banishment stands out.

[NNescio]

So as not to derail another thread, thought I'd post my thoughts here instead.





So basically, I'm still not convinced.

For one, the "ready a bunch of actions" thing really only applies to lone targets. That or you have to win a fight within 1 minute while maintaining concentration, so you won't be benefiting from any buffs, debuffs or control spells you might otherwise be able to use and you'll have to be avoiding damage (ideally) or *Poof!* guess who's back? I can see the use for splitting up two or three tough foes, to take them on in smaller chunks, but you're still having to maintain concentration and you're only one failed Con Save from having pretty much wasted that spell slot under those circumstances.

Most fights don't last 10 rounds anyway. On average at my table (as both a player and an NPC) it's around 4~5 rounds, with fights being mostly decided by the 3rd unless the DM sends in reinforcement waves. I suspect this is true for most of us (or at least those of us who value Banishment). I also believe 5e is designed for combats to (meaningfully) last only 3 rounds, judging by the DMG guidelines for determining offensive and defensive CR:


To determine a monster's overall damage output, take the average damage it deals with each of its attacks in a round and add them together. [...] If a monster's damage output varies from round to round, calculate its damage output each round for the first three rounds of combat, and take the average.


Increase the monster's effective hit points by 3 x the number of hit points the monster regenerates each round.

Under these conditions Banishment is a potent tide changer, as it would give the party 3-4 rounds to prepare (or heck, all 10 rounds, if it's a single monster) for the monster coming back by buffing (even buff stacking with spells like Mirror Image and Blink) and altering the battlefield. Readying attacks is the least powerful option you can do; nothing is stopping you from laying caltrops and ball bearings all over the battlefield and digging pits with Mold Earth and stacking non-concentration spells like Grease, Silent Image

It's pretty much a Save-or-Lose, and one of the most powerful ones at that (if not the MOST powerful), since it doesn't offer a repeating save unlike Hold Person/Monster, Dominate Person/Monster, Tasha's Hideous Laughter, et al. Almost nothing is immune to Banishment, so it works on most things (barring spell immunity or existing AMFs) Banishment also cannot be Dispelled whatsoever (unlike Banishment), since the spell is on the banished target, which has already been banished to a Demiplane. Heck, not even sticking the caster in an AMF can end this spell early since it does nothing to concentration (This is RAI, supported by Crawford). So, really, even Imprisonment, a 9th level spell that requires an excessively expensive material component (even if it's not consumed), mind you -- is arguably weaker than Banishment in combat (the fact that it is permanent until dispelled hardly matters because 10 rounds is usually all you need anyway, unless you're up against an opponent that severely outclasses your party, in which case the cost for the material component would be prohibitive barring True Polymorph and Wish wealth shenanigans) since it's vulnerable to Dispel Magic (albeit explicitly requiring a 9th-level one) and AMF.

Like some the other above spells, Banishment also incapacitates your target, so if he's concentrating on a spell (a lot of higher CR enemies have some sort of innate spellcasting) or some other effect, that's gone too. It also can be cast with higher level spell slots to affect more targets (two or so is often a good choice against multiple burly types).

As for maintaining concentration, well, that's why you take Resilient (Con) or Warcaster (maybe both for Clerics and other frontliner casters). You can even start stacking Mirror Image and Blink. Your Cleric buddy can even slap on a Sanctuary on you if you want more protection and don't mind not being able to cast any more offensive spells (so you might as well take the Dodge action or use Minor Illusion). And if you're the Cleric, well, the Wizard (or some other Arcane caster) can CC the rest of the enemies while you finally have a good reason to heal your allies instead of just laying down the smack as usual. Warlocks/Sorlocks can also obscure you with their Darkness while shooting at the enemies if they have a Devil Sight/EB with advantage build.





Charisma save being preferable? Weeeell...not really. For PC's, sure, Charisma is often a decent Save to target over Wisdom, but for monsters? Charisma is often pretty decent, especially on the kind of critters you might want to be banishing. Fiends, Celestials, Dragons, the more powerful Undead...the big, bad, lone, preferably extraplanar, probably not spellcasting (Counterspell will ruin your fun too) foe you want to get rid of for a minute? Yeah, it's got a decent chance of having high Charisma, if not a superhuman one. That's not to mention the slew of such creatures that have magic resistance or legendary resistances. One Save and you've wasted a 4th level spell slot, no second chances.

Elementals are also highly susceptible to Banishment. Galeb Duhr (CR 6) in particular are particularly annoying since they can spawn two more dummy copies of themselves (that each deal the same damage). Targeting the original one (and succeeding in making him fail the save) will just wipe out all three from the battle. He sucks at Charisma save (+0), and if you accidentally target a copy, well, that one sucks even more (-5!).

Hags are also susceptible to it (despite being Charisma casters). Sure they are low CR by the time you get to L7 for Banishment... individually. Hag covens are a pain though, and a single Banishment will instantly prevent them from using Shared Spellcasting. Heck, even single Hags can be worth using a Banishment on if they have annoying spells (or are concentrating on one. Sure you can dispel it, but she can just recast it next turn).

With Volo on the table you get higher CR Elementals and Fey. Some of the Elemental Myrmidons (CR 7) are potent tanks and damage dealers with built-in control effects, so taking one (or multiple) of them out can be a good choice. They also suck horribly at Charisma saves (all +0). More hags on the table, and they still suck at Charisma saves (+3 at most) despite being Charisma casters. Bheur Hag (CR 7) in particular is very, very annoying as she has Hold Person (at will!), Cone of Cold and Wall of Ice, so she's a priority target for Banishment.

The other CR 7 Fey is the $@%#$%! Korred, who can bonus action grapple and restrain you with his hair rope (and he can have more than one) and has #@%$ casting with the ability to summon a Galeb Duhr (who can make two more dummy copies, oh joy) or a Xorn (say bye bye to your treasure and magic items). He can also use the Dragonkiller spell Otto's Irresistible Dance, which basically makes one target functionally restrained for at least one turn, no save (you need to waste actions on your turn to even attempt to Save, or an action and a spell slot to have a chance of Dispelling it).

This is on top of decent round-by-round damage and stealth skills. Believe me, you really want to Banish that @@#! hairy fey when you see him. -1 to Cha saves, HA!

Dragons usually have massive Charisma saves, except for the poor Dragon Turtle (CR 17 with only a puny +1 to Cha save). Rest of them are generally going to be a waste of an action, but the Diviner can put his Portent roll to good effect here, especially after exhausting a Dragon's Legendary Resistance.

Fiends often have Magic Resistance and moderately high Cha saves, making use of Banishment dicey (even though it's supposed to be fluff-wise their Kryptonite). Yugoloths do have lower Cha saves however, and can be good targets even with their MR. Nycaloths in particular are extremely annoying because they have at-will Dispel Magic (and at-will 60 ft Teleport, like all 'loths) but only have sucky save of +2 (at CR 9). The Ultroloths have a higher +4 Cha, but they have a lot of mind-affecting effects on top of at-will Dispel, so removing them can often become a priority.

The Demons also have an at-will Dispel Magic user, the Glaberzu. This one is hard to banish though, since he has +7 to Cha save on top of MR.

If the DM implements variant Demon Summoning or Yugoloth Summoning rules at the table, removing them becomes far more of a priority, MR be damned. Demons are particular dangerous since the summons are allies of the summoner. Yugoloth Summoning is usually a nonissue since they tend to backstab each other (they are not summoned as allies, and only "do as it pleases") and are highly mercenary (easily bribable by the party). The Ultroloth is the sole exception however -- his summons spawn as allies.

Undead? Heh, the Lich is prime target for Banishment. Sure he has Legendary Resistance 3/day as befits a CR 21 'Solo', but once that is gone he only has a puny Cha save of +3, so that's his Kryptonite (like PC and NPC Wizards). Once he comes back he's going to pop up in an area of magical Silence (or an AMF) with martials readying actions to grapple him. He's screwed then. If he has GoI up, that can be removed with a Dispel Magic. Counterspells? He only has one reaction per turn, and your arcane casters have it too. The only issue here is Plane Shift giving him an option, which can be handled with Silence + Forcecage.



What does that leave? Low Charisma, lone targets...that's what? Beasts, Monstrosities, Constructs and some Aberrations? The sort that are tough enough to take a rounds worth of Ready actions because they're designed to take on a whole party alone anyway? Even some of those have pretty decent Charisma.

If it's a single monster and it gets Banished, it's dead if it's a non-Intelligent enemy since the party has 10 full rounds to set up whatever spells and environmental advantages they want. Dig a pit hole with Mold Earth, for example. Low INT enemies are too stupid to flee when they come back.

Even intelligent monsters can be screwed once they come back if they have no reliable means of escape or dispels. Wizard goes after the Banishment-using Cleric in the initiative, for example? He starts casting Leomund's Tiny Hut (with a spell slot). If your martials have cantrips (from feats, race or archetypes) they can help with Mold Earth then, to further seal the monster's doom. Then on Round 11 the Cleric's Banishment ends, triggering a bunch of readied attacks from your martials. At which point the Wizard's LTH pops up before the monster gets to act, and he gets screwed six ways to Sunday.




Not to mention what, if any, material component such creatures might find "distasteful" if you're not using a spellcasting focus (I shudder to think :smalleek:).

If the DM is being picky on costless material components, then the player can always just use a focus.



The pool of ideal targets for Banishment is pretty small when you think about it, considering that it's a 4th level slot; that's a pretty big investment for a spell that's got pretty dicey odds of sticking, especially with the additional and ongoing cost of your Concentration making it even more dicey.

False, as demonstrated by the examples above. Also NPC casters frequently have low Charisma saves (like the seriously unfair CR 12 Archmage and Archdruid [Volo] with Level 18 spellcasting) and can be Banished quite easily (Archmage saves at +3, Archdruid saves at +0). Like most spellcasters they are also priority targets for Banishment.





Don't get me wrong, it's a decent enough spell. It's fairly good for separating a Leader from his Mob (though that Charisma issue raises it's head again; Leaders tend to be pretty Charismatic as a rule) or splitting up a small group of toughies to take them on one at a time, but it's hardly an auto-pick and it seems to get a lot of love that I'm just not understanding. What am I missing?

You're thinking in 4e terms. Quite a few Legendary monsters (that is, 'Solos' with Legendary actions) have sucky Cha saves, and some of them don't even have Legendary Resistance. CR 10 Aboleth? Cha Save of +4, and Banishment ends its Enslave effect by sticking it on another plane. Both casters fire Banishment and he's gone. This is then followed by Control Water to shape the Battlefield, at which point he's screwed when he comes back.

Gynosphinx? CR 11 +4 to Cha, no MR, no LR. Androsphinx? CR 17, no MR, no LR. Lair Actions might be an issue though, which is why you want to get Silence (blocks V spellcasting) + Fog Cloud (blocks LoS including against truesight and the Planeshift-like Lair Action) up ASAP + Grapple/Restrain the Sphinx when he pops back. Might still need some way to stun him on top of that to prevent him from PSing himself away.

Kraken? CR 23, ooo scary. Except it has a Cha Save of +5, no MR or LR. Hey, it's even its weakest save! Banishment is this guy's Kryptonite too! And he doesn't even have spells! Get a Simulacrum each for both of your casters and your can ready Banishment to send Banish him again when he comes back, letting you set up Control Water and LTH (you need the second Banishment to prevent the Kraken from taking Legendary Actions) when he eventually comes back again. Now he's really screwed, and you haven't even touched your L8 and L9 spell slots yet.

Other "leaders" (boss monsters and NPCs) are probably either going to be casters or a massive brutes, both of which tend to suck at Cha saves, unless it happens to be a Fiend.

[JellyPooga]

@NNescio: I think we have different ideas of what "sucks". A +4 bonus vs. a DC 8+4 (prof) +4 (stat) for your average level 7 caster is favourable, sure, but still well in "dicey" territory.

[SharkForce]

@NNescio: I think we have different ideas of what "sucks". A +4 bonus vs. a DC 8+4 (prof) +4 (stat) for your average level 7 caster is favourable, sure, but still well in "dicey" territory.

it isn't guaranteed. it is still a pretty good chance, and if it does work, can trivialize an encounter.

also, just because something is CR 7, doesn't mean you only fight it when you're level 7. CR 7 creatures are not individually challenges for high level groups, but 2 or 3 of them remain challenging for some time... which can easily mean your DC is a few points higher (though i think at level 7 your proficiency bonus is only +3, so you've got your initial number off a bit). and, if you're removing mooks instead of the main threat, CR 7 is entirely reasonable to be part of an encounter clear through to level 20.

[BW022]

JellyPooga,

There is an easy way to see how powerful the spell is... use it against the party.

Say you have the typical group -- 7th-level fighter, cleric, wizard, and rogue -- come around a hallway and see an 8th-level orc cleric near the back, and six ogres in a cavern. The orc cleric is waiting, casts banishment on the fighter, goes through a back door, and closes it. The ogres close and attack. Track the length of the combat and resources (hit points, spell slots, etc.) used by the party. Then repeat the combat with the orc cleric casting any other spells. I can't imagine the first fight not being a lot longer and resource costly for the PCs.

The situation is worse when the PCs use the tactic. Imagine if the PC cleric banishes the orc cleric and runs back down the hall way. You have effectively turned one hard fight with four PCs, into an easy fight with three PCs and a moderate fight typically with the worse possible set-up against the orc cleric. The fighter, rogue, and wizard will likely finish the ogres off in less than 10 rounds -- most 5e combats only last 5-6 rounds. They'll probably have a couple of rounds of to heal, buff, and move into position. When the orc cleric reappears, he's in the worst possible position imaginable -- in melee, rogues and fighters flanking, cleric behind, and wizard at a safe distance. Heck... the could have pre-cast silence, set a bear trap, summoned a couple of bears, webbed the area, or (given enough time) build a bonfire where the orc cleric will reappear, etc.

Obviously, against outer-planer creatures, it turns one hard fight vs. four PCs, into one easy fight against three PCs, plus no fight.

[NNescio]

@NNescio: I think we have different ideas of what "sucks". A +4 bonus vs. a DC 8+4 (prof) +4 (stat) for your average level 7 caster is favourable, sure, but still well in "dicey" territory.

Assuming you're talking about L7 with a proficiency of +3, that's a DC 15 save against a +4 bonus. The creature has a 50% chance to fail.

Which might sound dicey to you, but this is a 50% chance of effectively winning the entire encounter, from one single action from a single PC. You still have three more PCs to go, and there's likely a second caster who can fire off another Banishment if you fail.

Flip a coin. Heads, you win. Tails, you don't even lose yet. Preeetty favorable odds.

This is very important if your opponent is a caster or pseudocaster of some sort with some some sort of ability that can CC your entire party. Or heaven forbid, if he can summon. Or even an enemy caster with multiple Banishments of his own, really. (NPC spellcaster CRs are ridiculously unfair for their CR with only a party at full spell slots standing a chance, really, if the DM fires off his highest level spell every round, which the enemy has no reason not to, really. Play PotA and you'll understand.)

Also they are suckier saves in my above examples, like +0, -1, and even a -5 (albeit for duplicates, but those also deal high damage).

[JellyPooga]

Assuming you're talking about L7 with a proficiency of +3, that's a DC 15 save against a +4 bonus. The creature has a 50% chance to fail.

Which might sound dicey to you, but this is a 50% chance of effectively winning the entire encounter, from one single action from a single PC.

(Yeah, sorry for the numbers slip)

I've certainly been given some food for thought in this thread and I agree that Banishment can be good; I've not denied that, but it's probably better than I originally perceived it to be.

Having said that, even at level 20 and with an Ability Score of 20, for a DC of 19; a +4 Cha bonus is not that uncommon, especially among "boss" monsters (i.e. the encounters you want to be made as easy as possible) and that +4 is still (marginally) better than a 1-in-4 chance of passing that Save (even without magic resistance); still pretty risky for an all-or-nothing investment, considering other actions you could be taking or spells you could be casting on the turn you cast it.

As for it "effectively winning the entire encounter", there I disagree. Yes, it can tip the odds in your favour and under certain circumstances it will literally end an encounter (i.e. vs. extraplanar beings), but on the whole it's largely just a delaying tactic. Such a delaying strategy can definitely be advantageous; allowing the caster and his allies to "reset the board" (healing, cast buffs, manipulate terrain, etc.) or flee if things are looking truly grim, but if you're on the back foot and need that extra bit of breathing room, there's an argument that you've already done something wrong and at the end of the day spell you still have to deal with the problem. It doesn't make the problem go away, just...displaces it for a short time and arguably, it can even backfire if you do manage to fluff a Concentration check and your target comes rampaging back before you had a chance to take advantage of its abscence.

As you say, however, there are probably enough targets with low enough Charisma to make it worthwhile and I did forget about Elementals which do tend to a) be extraplanar and b) have low Charisma. I'm still not entirely convinced it's an auto-include or even the game-changer it's made out to be; under most circumstances, I'd rather be using my Concentration on Greater Invisibility, Conjure Minor Elementals, Fly or Haste. I wouldn't want to find myself in a position where I was relying on Banishment, if I could possibly help it; it feels too much like an act of desperation, used in the moment you realise that you've bitten off more than you can chew through with a more active offence; a last-chance gamble that you can only pray will pay-off because if it doesn't, well, you got to know when to hold 'em/fold 'em/run...

[WickerNipple]

(Yeah, sorry for the numbers slip)
Having said that, even at level 20 and with an Ability Score of 20, for a DC of 19; a +4 Cha bonus is not that uncommon, especially among "boss" monsters (i.e. the encounters you want to be made as easy as possible) and that +4 is still (marginally) better than a 1-in-4 chance of passing that Save (even without magic resistance); still pretty risky for an all-or-nothing investment, considering other actions you could be taking or spells you could be casting on the turn you cast it.


I don't understand your logic here at all. A 75% chance for save-or-lose is about the best possible risk the game is going to give you. Most people don't have that sort of hit rate, much less win in one spell rate. What would be a better use of an action?

Or to be more succinct: If you think a 25% chance to waste your action is too risky, why would you ever cast any spell that had a saving throw?

[JellyPooga]

I don't understand your logic here at all. A 75% chance for save-or-lose is about the best possible risk the game is going to give you. Most people don't have that sort of hit rate, much less win in one spell rate. What would be a better use of an action?

Or to be more succinct: If you think a 25% chance to waste your action is too risky, why would you ever cast any spell that had a saving throw?

Many spells with a saving throw offer multiple chances at failure/success; Evards Black Tentacles for another 4th level example. Sure, they won't have the same dramatic change to an encounter, but it's far more reliable. There's a similar reliability/resource expenditure issue with attacks; if I attack one turn and miss, I can just try again. If I cast Banishment and the target passes its Save, I've got a limited nimber of retries and I've lost an opportunity to cast something else that's more reliable.

Further, as a 4th level spell, it's always going to be a relatively significant investment, even in the higher eschlons of play; those aren't "bread and butter" slots; they're game-changers, or should be. If spending that slot fizzles to zero effect, that's a noticable loss.

So yeah, it's kind of the crux of my argument that Banishment is too risky an investment to really regard it as anything but a gamble. When it goes off it's great, but no way in hell would I make a plan around it sticking; way too risky.

edit: This is, of course, predicated on the majority of targets you'd use Banishment on having a decent Charisma. Against lower Charisma targets, the success rate of Banishment is obviously going to be much higher and worth that gamble. For reference, I'd consider making a plan around a 90% success rate...maybe 80% if I was feeling a bit ballsy, but then I guess I'm not much of a gambler unless I'm desperate.

[NNescio]

(As for it "effectively winning the entire encounter", there I disagree. Yes, it can tip the odds in your favour and under certain circumstances it will literally end an encounter (i.e. vs. extraplanar beings), but on the whole it's largely just a delaying tactic.

If setting up pit traps for your enemies with Illusions/Web/Summons/Fog Cloud (Blindsight optional if you have a Druid or a Rogue) and Invisible Rogues/Fighters + bear traps +readied attacks the moment your enemy pops up again isn't shooting fish in the barrel for normal enemies, I don't know what is. For caster enemies substitute Web/Summons with Silence, and readied attacks with readied grapples. For more serious cases you bust out the LTH. For Legendary creatures that are vulnerable to Banishment, well, I already outlined how to cripple them earlier. They can't do JACK.





Such a delaying strategy can definitely be advantageous; allowing the caster and his allies to "reset the board" (healing, cast buffs, manipulate terrain, etc.) or flee if things are looking truly grim, but if you're on the back foot and need that extra bit of breathing room,

You don't reset the board. You take 10 moves for free to develop your pieces while he twiddles his thumbs and do nothing. So what if you can't attack him during those 10 moves yet -- he's screwed the moment he comes back. Don't even need to be used as a last resort really, the faster your fire the Banishment in cases like this ("you'll know when the DM springs his Pièce De Résistance on you, unless he has a habit of using illusions), the better it will end up for the your party. Less need to spend resources healing/restoring/dispelling/counterspelling.




there's an argument that you've already done something wrong and at the end of the day spell you still have to deal with the problem. It doesn't make the problem go away, just...displaces it for a short time and arguably,

You. Do. It. Preemptively.


it can even backfire if you do manage to fluff a Concentration check and your target comes rampaging back before you had a chance to take advantage of its abscence.

Blow the Concentration save how? What, DM sends reinforcements against you? You're better off that the target is already Dismissed anyway instead of the reinforcements joining in the middle of combat.

Blow the Con save when a mook hits you before the baddie's next turn? Why, that can happen to any other concentration BFC/save-or-suck. At the very least you get to incapacitate the bad guy briefly to end his concentration.


I don't understand your logic here at all. A 75% chance for save-or-lose is about the best possible risk the game is going to give you. Most people don't have that sort of hit rate, much less win in one spell rate. What would be a better use of an action?

Or to be more succinct: If you think a 25% chance to waste your action is too risky, why would you ever cast any spell that had a saving throw?

Heck, casting it twice bumps the overall chances to 93.75% too. Can be done with Action Surge on a 18 Wiz/2 Fighter build.


Many spells with a saving throw offer multiple chances at failure/success; Evards Black Tentacles for another 4th level example. Sure, they won't have the same dramatic change to an encounter, but it's far more reliable. There's a similar reliability/resource expenditure issue with attacks; if I attack one turn and miss, I can just try again. If I cast Banishment and the target passes its Save, I've got a limited nimber of retries and I've lost an opportunity to cast something else that's more reliable.

Further, as a 4th level spell, it's always going to be a relatively significant investment, even in the higher eschlons of play; those aren't "bread and butter" slots; they're game-changers, or should be. If spending that slot fizzles to zero effect, that's a noticable loss.

So yeah, it's kind of the crux of my argument that Banishment is too risky an investment to really regard it as anything but a gamble. When it goes off it's great, but no way in hell would I make a plan around it sticking; way too risky.

Tell me if you have any other single spell that is better to cast than Banishment against the Kraken. Remember, if you don't disable it, it's going to take a Legendary Action immediately at the end of your turn. Automatic 3x 4d10 damage to one target, DC 23 Dex Save for half.You can't Forcecage it either, since it won't fit.

Maybe a Gate to throw in on dry land, but that's a 9th vs a 4th, and requires you to know the Kraken's true name. There are also True Polymorph, Wish and Demiplane shenanigans, but those require multiple casts before the battle begins. Blocking LoS or sniping from further than 120ft away can also work, but this is going to be hard to do in its lair.

Same goes for other Legendary Creatures, or even normal spellcasters. You don't disable (incapacitate or at least block LoS for sight-dependent spells and abilities, or Silence against vocal or sound-dependent abilities), he's going to lob a spell or use some damaging effect that can charm, mind control, petrify, et al. against multiple party members. You end up needing more spells to fix the damage, assuming you even get the chance to.

In a lot of cases action economy is far better than spell slot economy. This is doubly true when you go against Legendary Creatures and other boss fights.

That Evard's? I mean, sure, it's highly effective when it works (at its level), but it does jack against:
1) Enemies that fly.
2) Enemies that teleport
3) Enemies that cast spells (might block Somatic components depending on how the DM adjudicates the grappling/restrain work, but a lot of escape spells tend to be V only)
4) Enemies with movement options among their Legendary Actions (they just walk out before their turn even starts)

For me, Sleet Storm is more reliable CC (can knock down flying enemies), and can double for use in blocking LoS (blocking some types of teleports and a lot of targeted spells) even for creatures with Truesight. It can also be used while you're blinded or don't have LoS, unlike Evard's. Doesn't work against Legendary Actions (but the area is bigger, so it's harder to walk out off, especially with zero visibility) though, which is why Dismissal is often crucial.

Now, having said that, I won't necessarily take Banishment as a Wizard at L7, if the Cleric or Warlock has it covered (Warlock is more suitable to spam it at that level anyway). Greater Invis is tempting, as you mentioned (on an EB Warlock or on the Rogue), and Polymorph too (this one doesn't age so well, but Giant Ape and T-Rex can solo encounters by themselves)Greater Invis does suffer from the same two problems as Fly of making the rest of the party getting targeted more often by attacks AND preventing you from using concentration BFC/SoS spells though. Maybe wait until L8.

I won't delay it beyond L8 though. at higher levels Banishment becomes a practical necessity against enemies with nasty ways to act off turn (or nasty actions in general, if the rest of the party can't disable him).



edit: This is, of course, predicated on the majority of targets you'd use Banishment on having a decent Charisma. Against lower Charisma targets, the success rate of Banishment is obviously going to be much higher and worth that gamble. For reference, I'd consider making a plan around a 90% success rate...maybe 80% if I was feeling a bit ballsy, but then I guess I'm not much of a gambler unless I'm desperate.

Here's the thing; 90% chance of doing "some thing" is worse than 75% chance of "I WIN", especially if the 90% chance of "some thing" has a 0% chance of preventing massive damage or just plain "YOU LOSE" next turn.

You have to realize that the enemies have opportunity for counterplay too. The more sharply and decisively you shut off those options, the less damage is done to your party, and the better your chances are at survival.

[JellyPooga]

Tell me if you have any other single spell that is better to cast than Banishment against the Kraken. Remember, if you don't disable it, it's going to take a Legendary Action immediately at the end of your turn.

Here's the thing; when the Kraken reappears from his own personal demiplane that you've banished him to...what are YOU going to do to avoid that Legendary Action? You aren't going to take that mutha down with a single bout of readied actions when he reappears and then you're stuck back with the same dilemma, except you're now one 4th level spell slot worse off. You can't ready an action to cast Banishment again (that takes Concentration, though I'll admit that another party member could*), so the Kraken is going to get at least one turn before you get an opportunity to cast it again and unless you're going directly after the Kraken in the initiative order, or everyone on your team can cast Banishment, he'll be getting some of those dreaded Legendary Actions in as well.

*Chaining Banishment this way is a way to win...eventually...if you're willing to risk the dice on burning a whole heap of "relatively high" to "high" level slots on nothing but that delay...and don't mind a rather dull encounter involving not a lot of action and quite a lot of waiting...and you don't run out of spell slots...or the Kraken makes his Save. Yeah, as far as plans go, it's somewhat closer to Plan-Z than Plan-A.

Banishment simply isn't a "win button" against big-boys like the Kraken. It's a "rig the deck" button, a delaying action or a defensive move, but on its own it's doing...well, not a lot. If Banishment really was a 75% chance of "I WIN", I'd take those odds, but it's not "I WIN"; it's more like "I...er...damn, we need more time...Banishment! Phew. What are we going to do guys?". You still need the ability to win later, after Banishment expires.

[Laserlight]

Our group has found Banish to be hugely effective. Except the one time when they Banished a hydra that was guarding a prison, and then stood around talking to the prisoners for 48 seconds. Actually it was effective then too, but the look on the party's faces when they finally connected "the spell will run out in 60 seconds" and "we're down to 12 seconds" with "and then the hydra will be back....right here" was gold. But usually Banish gets applied to a boss or miniboss and trivializes the fight; the caster can stand back out of the way while the rest of the party cleans up any minions.

[NNescio]

Here's the thing; when the Kraken reappears from his own personal demiplane that you've banished him to...what are YOU going to do to avoid that Legendary Action? You aren't going to take that mutha down with a single bout of readied actions when he reappears and then you're stuck back with the same dilemma, except you're now one 4th level spell slot worse off. You can't ready an action to cast Banishment again (that takes Concentration, though I'll admit that another party member could*), so the Kraken is going to get at least one turn before you get an opportunity to cast it again and unless you're going directly after the Kraken in the initiative order, or everyone on your team can cast Banishment, he'll be getting some of those dreaded Legendary Actions in as well.

He. Pops. Out. In. His. Lair. Now drained of water. With the party hiding in a friggin' LTH. Untouchable by the Kraken. They then kill him with barrages of attacks (and the occasional pop in and out of the LTH to cast spells by casters other than the Wizard) while the poor squid limps away at 20 ft. per round.

Just take a good look at the spells I mentioned as part of the "shooting the squid in the barrel" setup.

Heck the LTH isn't even necessary. They can just block LoS to block the Lightning Storm Legendary Action, and he can't use his Lair Actions now that there's no more water.

It's basically shooting the poor little squid in a barrel.




*Chaining Banishment this way is a way to win...eventually...if you're willing to risk the dice on burning a whole heap of "relatively high" to "high" level slots on nothing but that delay...and don't mind a rather dull encounter involving not a lot of action and quite a lot of waiting...and you don't run out of spell slots...or the Kraken makes his Save. Yeah, as far as plans go, it's somewhat closer to Plan-Z than Plan-A.

Banishment simply isn't a "win button" against big-boys like the Kraken. It's a "rig the deck" button, a delaying action or a defensive move, but on its own it's doing...well, not a lot. If Banishment really was a 75% chance of "I WIN", I'd take those odds, but it's not "I WIN"; it's more like "I...er...damn, we need more time...Banishment! Phew. What are we going to do guys?". You still need the ability to win later, after Banishment expires.

I rigged the deck so unfairly that the Kraken has almost no chance (<1%) to win.

Game. Set. Match.

And the Party still has L8 and L9 slots and plenty of lower level slots left.

[SharkForce]

Here's the thing; when the Kraken reappears from his own personal demiplane that you've banished him to...what are YOU going to do to avoid that Legendary Action? You aren't going to take that mutha down with a single bout of readied actions when he reappears and then you're stuck back with the same dilemma, except you're now one 4th level spell slot worse off. You can't ready an action to cast Banishment again (that takes Concentration, though I'll admit that another party member could*), so the Kraken is going to get at least one turn before you get an opportunity to cast it again and unless you're going directly after the Kraken in the initiative order, or everyone on your team can cast Banishment, he'll be getting some of those dreaded Legendary Actions in as well.

*Chaining Banishment this way is a way to win...eventually...if you're willing to risk the dice on burning a whole heap of "relatively high" to "high" level slots on nothing but that delay...and don't mind a rather dull encounter involving not a lot of action and quite a lot of waiting...and you don't run out of spell slots...or the Kraken makes his Save. Yeah, as far as plans go, it's somewhat closer to Plan-Z than Plan-A.

Banishment simply isn't a "win button" against big-boys like the Kraken. It's a "rig the deck" button, a delaying action or a defensive move, but on its own it's doing...well, not a lot. If Banishment really was a 75% chance of "I WIN", I'd take those odds, but it's not "I WIN"; it's more like "I...er...damn, we need more time...Banishment! Phew. What are we going to do guys?". You still need the ability to win later, after Banishment expires.

you banish the kraken. it is unable to do anything useful while it is gone. then, while it is gone, you prepare. perhaps you remove water from the area (if possible), or perhaps you set up some simple traps (if it is going to reappear in the air because the water was all moved away). perhaps you place some non-concentration crowd control spells there (you could spam mordenkainen's hound, for example), perhaps you place a dozen barrels of flammable oil from your bag of holding, perhaps you spend the time healing, perhaps you spend the time poisoning weapons, or setting up some lightning rods to reduce the kraken's damage. when the kraken gets back, in addition to the kraken losing a full round of actions while the party got to ready some actions (putting them, say, half a round's worth of turns ahead), the party has also had the chance to prepare the battlefield to their liking, pre-buff, heal (potentially erasing several rounds worth of actions the kraken has already used), and otherwise get ready to deal lots of damage as soon as the kraken returns.

heck, if you're really lucky, maybe you had some other effect in place that gets better over time, like a contagion spell or a flesh to stone, and it's actually had time to work while the kraken was banished. maybe another party member has been charging up a delayed blast fireball. maybe someone has been casting a symbol, or summoning an ally.

if you're getting those kinds of advantages and the fight is not made fairly trivial, maybe you should actually be using the time to run for your life, because if you can't win with those advantages, there's a fairly significant chance you wouldn't be able to win at all no matter what you did.

[Tanarii]

I also believe 5e is designed for combats to (meaningfully) last only 3 rounds, judging by the DMG guidelines for determining offensive and defensive CR:I've always taken that to mean that the average length of time a creature will live is about 3 rounds. And IMX that's just about right. A 3-round total combat is only something to be expected in Easy combats, or Medium combats in which (usually multiple) spellcasters drop top-level spells. Or when it's a very heavily char-op'd party. So shorter combats are more common in AL.


----------------------------------
Edit: I should probably say something on topic for once.

IMO Banishment is fantastic because it's very effective Crowd Control, to use the MMO term.

[Kane0]

Something nobody has mentioned yet:

Warlocks get an additional boost when using it since upscaling increases the amount or targets. 'Locks with 5th level slots can cast it at a pair of targets, doubling the chances of a failed save and doubling the potential lockaway goodness.

But as people have said, its a great way to (semi)permanently end an extraplanar threat, seperate a burly bruiser from bundles of minions (or inversely to halt an enemy controller), recover and prepare against a single foe, targets an unusual save and isn't a super-high level slot. It's very versatile.

[ShikomeKidoMi]

So as not to derail another thread, thought I'd post my thoughts here instead.So basically, I'm still not convinced.

Removing a single powerful enemy from a fight is often the difference between success and failure. If you doubt Banishment is useful, go play WoW and watch how great the ability to turn people into sheep with Polymorph is. Or just use Banishment in a game a few times.


It's a great spell for two types of encounters: those with only one monster (a la Strahd) so that everyone gets an 'extra turn', or those with a boss and his henchmen around. It's usually not hard for the party to dispose of henchmen when the boss is away, so suddenly the tough fight is split in two easier ones. For this, you need to be good at keeping concentration and have solid defenses.

Anywhere else, it's not that good.

It's also pretty good when fighting two or three high level monsters by cutting one of them out of the fight, dealing with the remainder, and then healing before dealing with the last one.

I'd rather fight two Dragon Turtles back to back than a pair of them, for example.

[JellyPooga]

Now drained of water.

So, you have a friend with Control Water then? Why couldn't we open with this move instead of Banishment?


With the party hiding in a friggin' LTH.

You also have a friend with LTH as well? 'Cos with that 1 minute cast time, he needs to start casting that the turn before you cast Banishment, or you're eating some Kraken fury while you wait for him to finish up casting.


Just take a good look at the spells I mentioned as part of the "shooting the squid in the barrel" setup.

Illusion? Summons? Invisible Rogues and Fighters? Who's concentrating on all this? Are you Team Wizard or something? And how much of this could have been simply done ahead of time instead of chancing the dice and burning a spell slot on Banishment to do it "on site"? Really, the only thing you've mentioned (well, implied) that needs to be done in the presence of the Kraken is Control Water (and LTH if you think it necessary, but as you say yourself, it's not). So unless you've been jumped by the Kraken (i.e. you've done something wrong; and yes, not scouting, pre-preparing and taking adequate precautions when you're fighting the Kraken is definitely doing something wrong), your fish-in-a-barrel scenario isn't because of Banishment, but because of Control Water and all the other spells your party of spellcasters are using and concentrating on. Banishment just gave you the opportunity to do it without planning ahead, balls-to-the-wall, maverick style.


you banish the kraken. it is unable to do anything useful while it is gone. then, while it is gone, you prepare. perhaps you remove water from the area (if possible), or perhaps you set up some simple traps (if it is going to reappear in the air because the water was all moved away). perhaps you place some non-concentration crowd control spells there (you could spam mordenkainen's hound, for example), perhaps you place a dozen barrels of flammable oil from your bag of holding, perhaps you spend the time healing, perhaps you spend the time poisoning weapons, or setting up some lightning rods to reduce the kraken's damage.

Battlefield prep is pretty limited. I'm not saying it can't be done, to great effect even, but 1 minute isn't long and every spell slot you use to do it quicker is a spell slot you're not using directly against your target (or another target later in the day). I'll also point you to my comments above regarding advance preparation; there's not a great deal that needs to be done on-site (though I acknowledge the ones you mention). Further, it depends on a battlefield that can be manipulated; e.g. to go to an extreme, there's not a great deal you can do if you're fighting the Kraken in the infinite body of water that is the Elemental Plane of Water.


when the kraken gets back, in addition to the kraken losing a full round of actions while the party got to ready some actions (putting them, say, half a round's worth of turns ahead)

Why does he lose a full round of actions? He slots right back in to the initiative order when he returns, so I guess the dude concentrating on Banishment could end it right after the Krakens Initiative count, but that would reduce the duration (technically) to 9 rounds instead of 10 (because you need to end it after the Kraken turn before your last turn, otherwise it expires on your turn, not at the end of his) and besides, we wouldn't want to metagame now would we? :smallamused: The party gets one bout of readied actions beore initiative resumes as normal, as you say; about half a round ahead (though perhaps that's a little stingy; 3/4 of a round, maybe)...and there's the real debate if we're talking about Banishment as part of The Plan (rather than reactive); is a 4th level spell slot worth one bout of readied actions?


heck, if you're really lucky, maybe you had some other effect in place that gets better over time, like a contagion spell or a flesh to stone, and it's actually had time to work while the kraken was banished. maybe another party member has been charging up a delayed blast fireball. maybe someone has been casting a symbol, or summoning an ally.

Ah, now this is more interesting and defintitely where I can see Banishment being allowed to shine...or more accurately, it being a catalyst for another spell to shine. But which spell is the one doing the heavy lifting and as such deserves the praise; Banishment or the other?

Banishment isn't that great a spell because it's worthless; it's clearly not. It's not a great spell because it doesn't really do anything itself (outside of banishing extraplanars for good and even then it's not really solving the problem so much as putting it off in the case of many more powerful foes). It can be a great catalyst, yes, it lets you do lots of other things, yes, but if you're casting Banishment then all you're getting is some extra time that, largely speaking, you probably could have had with a bit of forethought and planning instead of a 4th level spell slot and chancing the dice. Which is why I call it a risky investment when used proactively; you're gambling not only the 4th level slot, but the opportunity to prepare ahead of time because you were relying on having a minute of Banishment time to get those buffs/summons/illusions up. If you lose that gamble, Banishment has put you in a worse position than if you'd taken time you could have definitely had if you weren't relying on Banishment to stick. Used defensively/reactively, sure, it's good, maybe even great, but it's still a dicey spell and for me that puts it firmly in the "yeah, it's good" category instead of on the "I always prepare it and all my plans involve it. ALL OF THEM...O_O" list.

[NNescio]

So, you have a friend with Control Water then? Why couldn't we open with this move instead of Banishment?

Because the Kraken isn't dumb, and will either focus on the caster to end his concentration, or flee. Control Water cast while he wasn't around though? He's not going to see it coming.




You also have a friend with LTH as well? 'Cos with that 1 minute cast time, he needs to start casting that the turn before you cast Banishment, or you're eating some Kraken fury while you wait for him to finish up casting.

IN MY EARLIER POST, I suggested using a second readied banishment to buy more time for LTH. As for friends, say hello to my buddy the Simulacrum.




Illusion? Summons? Invisible Rogues and Fighters? Who's concentrating on all this? Are you Team Wizard or something?

For the Kraken's case, Simulacrums are already on the table for that CR. (Normal use, that is, none of the Wish chaining shenanigans.)

For normal combat, you probably have at least one other caster. Ideally this should be the Wizard, with the Cleric being the Banisher. Of course, if it were the Wizard doing the banishing then Grease doesn't require concentration, incidentally. Neither does Mold Earth, if you're outdoors.

Summons are for Druids.

And if both your Rogue and Fighter are AT and EK, yes, you're Team Wizard.

(Why not open combats with everyone under GI then? Simple, enemies aren't dumb and will flee. It also doesn't last that long. A Banished target popping up in a room foe of invisible foes, on the other hand, however, will have no time to react, and cannot flee because his enemies will have all the time they need to arrange themselves to cut off escape routes.)

Of course, the above is generally overkill. For the average 'humanoid' melee guy who's just there to be mopped up, he will be popping up on top of a bear trap. Surrounded by more traps and/or ball bearings/caltrops. Oil is optional by the point. At this point he will eat two readied attacks to his face. Then the party dogpiles him with more ranged attacks 4v1 while he can't even maneuver into position to attack.

Ranged folks have the same treatment, but with your party martials flanking his position when he pops up to force disadvantage on him.

Casters will generally get the Silence + Grapple treatment. Also bear traps, because why not. Blocking off LoS is also another alternative to Silence, and be combined with traps/ball bearings/caltrops, the position of which your party knows but the caster does not.

Hybrid enemies also necessitate the use of spell slots to neutralize them. Generally the straight forward way to do so is to block LoS while he spawns back in a room filled with traps. Web is another alternative, or maybe Summons. Cleric can also choose to throw up Spirit Guardians.

Sure, you're spending spell slots, but if Banishment wasn't there you will spend more spell slots fixing the damage anyway.

Now, again, not every fight should be opened with Banishment -- you don't have the spell slots to do so, at least not until the higher levels. For your usual mook fight a Web here, a Grease there, Fog Cloud, maybe a Silent Image... that should be enough, between one of those and your cantrips. Slightly harder fights, you use Hypnotic Pattern/Fear, or Sleet Storm or Fireball (against massed weak enemies). Maybe a Fly on your Fighter (even if he doesn't specialize into ranged) if you see a enemy group with no meaningful way to retaliate against a flying enemy with 150/600 ft. range (rest of the party can just chill out while the Fighter plink them to death). Clerics generally drop Bless and Spiritual Weapon, with Spirit Guardians for the harder ones. Or use Domain spells like if they have any BFC/AoE ones. Warlocks can usually just shoot EBs, no need to use any slots.

Druids don't have Banishment, but they are often a great caster buddy for Banishment casters because of their cheap control options and ridiculous summons, plus easy access to Blindsight via Wildshape.

(Pallys? Just melee normally.)

You can do much with just L 1-3 slots, really. L4 ones are reserved for things that you don't want to be able to take actions (ANY action) next turn, especially pesky enemy spellcasters (innate or otherwise) and legendary monsters. These guys can usually still do things even through your usual BFC. Dispelling it one, example, or teleporting out, summon more creatures (especially if they summon more casters) or acting out of turn to still deal damage and control anyway. Or worse, straight up incapacitating you and forcing you to lose concentration. And if they win initiative, whoa, you party is screwed unless you can take out whichever effect they brought to the table. Banishment is right on the money for that.

Warlocks work somewhat differently though. For them they have higher incentive to spring for the higher spell level group BFC option, because all their spell slots are at their highest level anyway. Evard's is very excellent for the 'Lock then -- they don't really have a reason to use a lower-level BFC/CC spell.

(Even then, Banishment is a good pick for Warlocks as nearly no enemy is immune against it, and higher level 'Locks get 5th level refresh-on-short-rest spell slots to banish two targets instead of one.)

Outdoors things get better, because nothing is stopping you from using Mold Earth for 9 rounds to dig pits and raise 'fortifications' for your party.

And again, LTH (using the spell slot) works very well if initiative order permits it, even against some Legendary Action monsters (if your party feels comfortable with eating one Legendary Action). Readied Banishments to extend the timer is usually prohibitively expensive in terms of both spell slots, concentration, and other opportunity costs without Simulacrums on the table (which is why I only suggested it for the Kraken case).



And how much of this could have been simply done ahead of time instead of chancing the dice and burning a spell slot on Banishment to do it "on site"? Really, the only thing you've mentioned (well, implied) that needs to be done in the presence of the Kraken is Control Water (and LTH if you think it necessary, but as you say yourself, it's not). So unless you've been jumped by the Kraken (i.e. you've done something wrong; and yes, not scouting, pre-preparing and taking adequate precautions when you're fighting the Kraken is definitely doing something wrong), your fish-in-a-barrel scenario isn't because of Banishment, but because of Control Water and all the other spells your party of spellcasters are using and concentrating on. Banishment just gave you the opportunity to do it without planning ahead, balls-to-the-wall, maverick style.

Kraken isn't dumb, etc, etc. He will react in combat against your spellcasters trying to set this whole scenario up. Just simple movement can screw things up. Banishment means he doesn't get to react (once it sticks).

I'm assuming the party has to fight the Kraken in his lair, and hence do not have the luxury of preparing the battlefield ahead of time. Banishment is there to buy that luxury.

You cast Control Water while the Kraken isn't with you in his lair, he's just going to run away. You cast LTH? Same thing, once he spots it. You cast both IN HIS LAIR while he's Banished? He's not seeing it coming.





Battlefield prep is pretty limited. I'm not saying it can't be done, to great effect even, but 1 minute isn't long and every spell slot you use to do it quicker is a spell slot you're not using directly against your target (or another target later in the day). I'll also point you to my comments above regarding advance preparation; there's not a great deal that needs to be done on-site (though I acknowledge the ones you mention). Further, it depends on a battlefield that can be manipulated; e.g. to go to an extreme, there's not a great deal you can do if you're fighting the Kraken in the infinite body of water that is the Elemental Plane of Water.

If the Kraken is native to the Elemental Plane of Water and refuses to hole up in his lair, then yes, there's not much you can do. Not that other spells can do much anyway, since the Kraken can always run away when things go south for him (Ink Cloud). Only way to win then is with Gate (using Divinations or going on a sidequest to get his name), True Polymorph shenanigans or with more expensive Save-or-Sucks (which run into all the same problems you accused Banishment of having) like Irresistable Dance or even Imprisonment.

(If the Kraken is not native, then a single Banishment is an insta-win.)





Why does he lose a full round of actions? He slots right back in to the initiative order when he returns, so I guess the dude concentrating on Banishment could end it right after the Krakens Initiative count, but that would reduce the duration (technically) to 9 rounds instead of 10 (because you need to end it after the Kraken turn before your last turn, otherwise it expires on your turn, not at the end of his) and besides, we wouldn't want to metagame now would we? :smallamused: The party gets one bout of readied actions beore initiative resumes as normal, as you say; about half a round ahead (though perhaps that's a little stingy; 3/4 of a round, maybe)...and there's the real debate if we're talking about Banishment as part of The Plan (rather than reactive); is a 4th level spell slot worth one bout of readied actions?

Even if you couldn't be bothered to rearrange the battlefield to your advantage while your foe isn't around (I don't know WHY), at higher levels 4th level spell slot can still be worth three readied actions from your other party members. It's like, what, a dirt-cheap Time Stop?




Ah, now this is more interesting and defintitely where I can see Banishment being allowed to shine...or more accurately, it being a catalyst for another spell to shine. But which spell is the one doing the heavy lifting and as such deserves the praise; Banishment or the other?

Thing is, those spells don't get to shine if it weren't for Banishment setting things up for them. Put it this way -- who deserves credit for defeating a bunch of Hypnotic Pattern incapacitated enemies? The Fighter who does the killing, or the Wizard who hypnotized them?




Banishment isn't that great a spell because it's worthless; it's clearly not. It's not a great spell because it doesn't really do anything [B]itself (outside of banishing extraplanars for good and even then it's not really solving the problem so much as putting it off in the case of many more powerful foes). It can be a great catalyst, yes, it lets you do lots of other things, yes, but if you're casting Banishment then all you're getting is some extra time that, largely speaking, you probably could have had with a bit of forethought and planning instead of a 4th level spell slot and chancing the dice. Which is why I call it a risky investment when used proactively; you're gambling not only the 4th level slot, but the opportunity to prepare ahead of time because you were relying on having a minute of Banishment time to get those buffs/summons/illusions up. If you lose that gamble, Banishment has put you in a worse position than if you'd taken time you could have definitely had if you weren't relying on Banishment to stick. Used defensively/reactively, sure, it's good, maybe even great, but it's still a dicey spell and for me that puts it firmly in the "yeah, it's good" category instead of on the "I always prepare it and all my plans involve it. ALL OF THEM...O_O" list.

Because it's one of the strongest options against enemy casters and legendary monsters (all of which have options to cripple multiple party members if they get any chance to take an action), which parties will face with increasing frequency as they level up.

Banishment really is cutting down on the amount of uncertainty and risk, instead of increasing it. Against single enemies, instead of worrying over whether your enemies will make multiple saves over multiple rounds or what abilities they will use next round or whether they will hit you or your party members or whether you or your party members will save, you reduce uncertainty to a single die roll (which again, you generally will only take if the odds are favorable). Once you succeed, you get 9 rounds and your party members get 10 rounds to do whatever set up they want. Now it's like, what, Time Stop with 39 rounds? Action advantage means everything in this game.

And this all becomes even better with a Diviner in the party.

(Illusionists too at higher levels, for different reasons -- their Banishment isn't as reliable, but the amount of set-up they can do later is criminally unfair, thanks to Malleable Illusions + lllusory Reality)

[djreynolds]

For me IMO when used vs the party, a DM can devastate them. Losing that bear totem warrior for 1 minute can be bad.

I think vs the party it's tough.

[JellyPooga]

Because the Kraken isn't dumb, and will either focus on the caster to end his concentration, or flee. Control Water cast while he wasn't around though? He's not going to see it coming.

Banishment doesn't change this; if the Kraken can end Control Water by targeting the caster, he can do that whether he was banished or not. Likewise, Control Water has an immediate effect so, whether it's being cast in its presence or if he's returning from exile, he's not seeing it coming either way.


IN MY EARLIER POST, I suggested using a second readied banishment to buy more time for LTH. As for friends, say hello to my buddy the Simulacrum.

This requires two casters that can cast Banishment and one that can cast LTH. If we're adding in Control Water, that's another caster. Add all the other spells you want and we're starting to look at (by whatever means; extra PC's, Simulacrum, hired NPC's or whatever) half a dozen or more full-casters to achieve this sort of end-game. Not to mention whatever melee/martial support you want. When you have that many party members, is it really Banishment doing the heavy lifting or the fact that you've recruited a small army to take on this legendary beast.


(Why not open combats with everyone under GI then? Simple, enemies aren't dumb and will flee.

Wait, what? What are the enemies fleeing from if the party goes into the encounter invisible? Even if we make the opening move casting GI, it's not a dumb enemy that stays put upon seeing a group of people enter the room and then disappear; it's a cautious one, an uncertain one, perhaps, but not necessarily dumb. A smart enemy that sees you cast GI might initiate countermeasures; moving troops to block exits (if he has reasonable grounds for an assumption that the intruder isn't a god-like murderhobo) or protect vulnerable allies, having a spellcaster cast Dispel Magic or even Fog Cloud to level the playing field or the like. A weak and smart enemy might flee IF he has reinforcements and/or a better fortified position elsewhere. If no such support exists, what purpose does fleeing serve? Better to surrender than flee. That's assuming this enemy decides that seeing a foe suddenly turn invisible is automatic cause to jump to the conclusion that his enemy is too powerful for him to handle; hardly the most obvious leap of logic.


Banishment really is cutting down on the amount of uncertainty and risk, instead of increasing it.

Introducing a dice roll always increases risk and Banishment is a big risk. As I've said, if you're making Banishment a part of the plan, you're putting up as stakes;
1) One 4th+ level spell slot
2) One Action to cast it
3) The opportunity to cast/use any short duration spells/effects before the encounter (because they'd expire or at least run down before Banishment does)

If the gamble pays off, the reward is good; you have your time to rig the encounter, cast your buffs/summons/etc. block escape routes and so forth. If it doesn't stick, though, you've committed to going in half-cocked and you've wasted an action and a spell slot to boot.


Against single enemies, instead of worrying over whether your enemies will make multiple saves over multiple rounds or what abilities they will use next round or whether they will hit you or your party members or whether you or your party members will save, you reduce uncertainty to a single die roll (which again, you generally will only take if the odds are favorable).

Once Banishment expires you're going to have to make most of those dice rolls anyway. Banishment doesn't eliminate those risks, it doesn't reduce all of those risks to one roll; it skews the odds and maybe takes out a couple of dice rolls, yes, but it does so by introducing a whole new layer of risk. You might only use it when the odds are massively in your favour...and that's precisely my point; Banishment is a good spell when it works, but a) you're not always going to have good cause/opportunity to use it (i.e. it's relatively situational), b) it doesn't always work and c) if it doesn't work it will sometimes put you in a worse position than if you'd attempted to use it in the first place. A spell with that many caveats doesn't deserve to be lauded as much as it is.

I'll say it again; it's a good spell, but it's far from the "best" spell. I personally rate it as about as good as Counterspell; good, potentially great if I'm lucky or the GM is generous, but not an auto-pick for "everyday use"; I generally find it's more like a "I've got a spell prepped slot spare...hmmm...eh, Banishment, that'll do" sort of spell. If I think I'm going to be facing a lot of unknowns, can't scout or scry for whatever reason and have very little opportunity to prepare ahead of encounters; yeah, I'll prep Banishment because it's a pretty decent-good reactive spell. If, on the other hand, I know what's coming, I can scout/scry and I'm prepared, then Banishment is giving me very little that I can't do without it.

Put it this way; If you could only prepare one spell, would it be Banishment? If not, it's really not that great a spell.

[NNescio]

Banishment doesn't change this; if the Kraken can end Control Water by targeting the caster, he can do that whether he was banished or not. Likewise, Control Water has an immediate effect so, whether it's being cast in its presence or if he's returning from exile, he's not seeing it coming either way.

Kraken doesn't know who cast Control Water if he's coming back from Banishment. If there's anyone he suspects, it's going to be the guy who Banished him just now. And this is assuming nobody put down a spell that block LoS.

This tactic goes off, Kraken is fighting the party one second and finds himself flopping on the ground the next, blind and getting attacked from nowhere, without knowing what just happened to him (other than that one guy who cast a single spell at him, and he's no way to be seen).



This requires two casters that can cast Banishment and one that can cast LTH. If we're adding in Control Water, that's another caster. Add all the other spells you want and we're starting to look at (by whatever means; extra PC's, Simulacrum, hired NPC's or whatever) half a dozen or more full-casters to achieve this sort of end-game. Not to mention whatever melee/martial support you want. When you have that many party members, is it really Banishment doing the heavy lifting or the fact that you've recruited a small army to take on this legendary beast.

Four casters (Banish1, Banish2, Control, LTH) are enough. One of the Banishment casters can use his concentration on something that block LoS once the ready'd Banishment fires. Two if one of them is an Illusionist, he doesn't need LTH or all that if he has Mirage Arcane up or a Demiplane stuffed with permanent Major Images. And the other caster can even be his Simulacrum buddy.

Arcana Clerics and Bards can also have Simulacrum buddies via Wish too (set up beforehand), for that matter.

Really, LTH isn't really strictly necessary, so you don't even need a second Banisher, just stack battlefield controls instead. It just provides a completely fullproof way to provide complete immunity against things without burrow or Dispel Magic.

You only depend on one to two dice rolls.




Introducing a dice roll always increases risk and Banishment is a big risk. As I've said, if you're making Banishment a part of the plan, you're putting up as stakes;
1) One 4th+ level spell slot
2) One Action to cast it
3) The opportunity to cast/use any short duration spells/effects before the encounter (because they'd expire or at least run down before Banishment does)

If the gamble pays off, the reward is good; you have your time to rig the encounter, cast your buffs/summons/etc. block escape routes and so forth. If it doesn't stick, though, you've committed to going in half-cocked and you've wasted an action and a spell slot to boot.

You don't Banish ASAP against a vulnerable enemy with strong actions, he will then either:

1) Deal an awful ton of damage to one target or slightly less than that to the whole party.
2) Charm or dominate half your party.
3) Banish you.
4) BFC half your party.
5) Summon more allies.
6) Move you around the field like pieces on the chessboard.
7) Deny LoS to everyone except for him
8) etc. etc. nasty stuff
9)...or just run away like a coward, making you start the whole thing again, possibly in a worse condition if he can set up an ambush or call for reinforcements.

...and that's only on one action. And most of them don't even require concentration, MM monsters don't play fair. Lair and Legendary Actions just make it far worse. Heck, some can even affect your party by just sitting there, no action needed, Legendary, Lair, or otherwise.

"But he can do all of that when he comes ba...", well, duh, that's why you have Silence up against casters, or LoS blocking effects (or just GI enough people) and all that. Now, you could cast those spells normally without bothering with Banishment, but they will be cast one at a time, with the enemy knowing who cast which and the effects and location of each if he can see them. Via Banishment? One minute he's standing there fighting the party, then this one mage or priest or crazy woodsman casts a single spell at him and he suddenly finds himself completely blinded (or unable to make any sounds and with somebody grabbing him) with traps (or pitfalls, if outdoors) all over the place every step he takes with attacks coming out of nowhere. He didn't know what spell was cast or what the party did, he CANNOT know what spell was cast or what the part did, BECAUSE he was incapacitated

Banishment also goes a step further and let you do things that take multiple actions to setup, even multiple , or if initiative (and the type or lack of Legendary Actions) permits, even broken defensive spells that aren't supposed to be cast in combat like LTH.

Rest-of-the-party readies one action each is the bare minimum you can do with Banishment, really. As mentioned, this is super Timestop if the enemy fails the save (which can be guaranteed with a Diviner, or be pumped to really high chances if they are multiple Banishers including hybrid martials like the Paladin).

Now again, you don't use this spell all the time. But it is very powerful and practically nobody is immune to it, which is why it goes on my prepared (or spells known) list all the time (maybe not worth a Magical Secrets pick though) and is part of my standard repertoire against most 'solos' that don't look halfway charismatic (anything that is not a Fiend, Celestial or non-turtle Dragon). Scrying can only get you so far, it's not like 3.5e when you can play 20 questions with Contact Other Plane or use some other unblockable means of divination since they have been mostly nerfed in 5e. Speaking of which Save-or-Lose/Save-or-Suck/Save-or-Dies are also nerfed in this edition, except for Banishment getting a buff instead.



Once Banishment expires you're going to have to make most of those dice rolls anyway. Banishment doesn't eliminate those risks, it doesn't reduce all of those risks to one roll; it skews the odds and maybe takes out a couple of dice rolls, yes, but it does so by introducing a whole new layer of risk. You might only use it when the odds are massively in your favour...and that's precisely my point; Banishment is a good spell when it works, but a) you're not always going to have good cause/opportunity to use it (i.e. it's relatively situational), b) it doesn't always work and c) if it doesn't work it will sometimes put you in a worse position than if you'd attempted to use it in the first place. A spell with that many caveats doesn't deserve to be lauded as much as it is.

It skews the odds in your favor much more than any risk in introduces, unless you decide to cast it on something with an obvious good Cha save like a Dragon for some weird reason.



I'll say it again; it's a good spell, but it's far from the "best" spell. I personally rate it as about as good as Counterspell; good, potentially great if I'm lucky or the GM is generous, but not an auto-pick for "everyday use"; I generally find it's more like a "I've got a spell prepped slot spare...hmmm...eh, Banishment, that'll do" sort of spell. If I think I'm going to be facing a lot of unknowns, can't scout or scry for whatever reason and have very little opportunity to prepare ahead of encounters; yeah, I'll prep Banishment because it's a pretty decent-good reactive spell. If, on the other hand, I know what's coming, I can scout/scry and I'm prepared, then Banishment is giving me very little that I can't do without it.

If you can afford to know every single monster that pops up and have the luxury of not needing to prepare something that can work against unexpected foes, then personally speaking I don't think your DM is challenging you enough. And really, Banishment gets even better if you know what's coming, since you can prepare exactly what spells and items you need to deny all their actions after your Banish them, or even simply by letting you know if what you are facing would deserve Banishment ASAP the moment you win initiative.



Put it this way; If you could only prepare one spell, would it be Banishment? If not, it's really not that great a spell.

You might as well toss Time Stop/Demiplane/Mind Blank/Plane Shift/Teleport/Forcecage/Wall of Force/Contingency(HA!)/Rary's Telepathic Bond/Greater Invisibility/LTH/Fly/Dispel Magic/Counterspell/Misty Step/Mirror Image/Invisbility/Darkness/Fog Cloud/Shield/Mage Armor out with the bathwater too, by those standards.

[SharkForce]

banishment is good because it lets you get a lot of the advantage of having picked the battleground and setting up an ambush, even if you normally would not be able to. (the enemy loses a full round at the bare minimum, because everyone else is getting a chance to ready something and only loses part of a round. if you prefer, you can think of it as the rest of the party gaining parts of a round instead, it works out the same).

sure, if you have an enemy that you can lure to a place where you have all the advantages, banishment is unnecessary. in my experience, however, that is not even remotely guaranteed to happen. banishment lets you make it happen far more often, which is pretty significant, and yes, that is the power of banishment that is allowing that preparation to happen. the preparation is certainly an important part of the process, but it often has no chance of happening without banishment.

but seriously, if you have a way to lock an enemy into a space with a bunch of mordenkainen's hounds, they're pretty much screwed, and that only needs one caster... you could, for example, spend 8 rounds placing hounds around your target - which is probably overkill and you shouldn't go that far unless you're really confident this is the only fight *and* that this will definitely work - and then cast wall of force to block off the area you want enclosed (doesn't work as well on a kraken in particular since the kraken is so large and likely has 6 directions you would need to block off, but against other enemies it's good). they reappear, are trapped by the wall, and are surrounded by killer dogs. depending on the enemy, you could use a grappling barbarian or a pit trap (dug out with mold earth) or a variety of other options.

preparation can let you ambush a patrolling group of giants.

banishment lets you get much of the same benefit against a group of giants that are determined to stay in their fortress, and who are expecting to have the terrain and preparation advantage against you.

[NNescio]

but seriously, if you have a way to lock an enemy into a space with a bunch of mordenkainen's hounds, they're pretty much screwed, and that only needs one caster... you could, for example, spend 8 rounds placing hounds around your target - which is probably overkill and you shouldn't go that far unless you're really confident this is the only fight *and* that this will definitely work - and then cast wall of force to block off the area you want enclosed (doesn't work as well on a kraken in particular since the kraken is so large and likely has 6 directions you would need to block off, but against other enemies it's good). they reappear, are trapped by the wall, and are surrounded by killer dogs. depending on the enemy, you could use a grappling barbarian or a pit trap (dug out with mold earth) or a variety of other options.


Oh yes, totally forgot about that spell. This means there's even less need to muck around with multiple casters, and a single Wizard can just royally screw over anyone without teleportation abilities/Planeshift/Disintegrate/AMF.

[JellyPooga]

Kraken doesn't know who cast Control Water if he's coming back from Banishment. If there's anyone he suspects, it's going to be the guy who Banished him just now. And this is assuming nobody put down a spell that block LoS.

Nope. He knows it definitely isn't the guy who Banished him because that guy has been concentrating on Banishment, not Control Water. Int 22 counts for something, you know.


This tactic goes off, Kraken is fighting the party one second and finds himself flopping on the ground the next, blind and getting attacked from nowhere, without knowing what just happened to him (other than that one guy who cast a single spell at him, and he's no way to be seen).

Nope. Banishment Incapacitates its victim, it doesn't knock them unconscious. The Kraken can't take actions or reactions while banished, but that doesn't mean he's unaware. With Int/Wis/Cha as high as he has, he likely knows precisely how long he's been "out". He also has Truesight 120ft...conveniently the range of his Lightning Storm...so you'll have a relatively hard time blinding him without blinding your own team too.

That's assuming you've done the daft thing and actually approached to within 120ft of the damned thing in the first place (which I'm assuming you have because you cast Banishment with it's 60ft range). My team? They stood anything up to 300ft away (but definitely more than 120ft), my Druid cast Control Water on turn one and sat his arse down for the duration of the encounter, dropping the Kraken up to 100ft to the floor (ideally) with some Moses action (assuming, as we seem to have been, that the Kraken is in a limited body of water, rather than the ocean), then my team of Simulacra/hired NPC Wizards with Water Walk active take a stroll and cast Wall of Force, blocking him from reaching water again (range 120ft, but being Gargantuan, we don't need to actually get within 120ft of him to stop him getting to water) and my Fighter and Warlock use a combination of arrows and Eldritch Spears to destroy the beast. Laughing. That's a fish in a barrel. No Banishment, no risk, because I did my homework instead of charging in half-cocked and hoping the legendary CR:23 beast'o'doom would fail a DC:19 check with a +5 modifier...that's a 30% chance of you getting a Lightning Storm to the face instead of your minute to prepare.


"But he can do all of that when he comes back...", well, duh, that's why you have Silence up against casters

What's a caster going to do if you just cast Silence on him instead of Banishment again? Oh, the exact thing he'd do if he found himself reappering in a zone of Silence; try to get out of it, or stand there doing jack. Who cares if he knows who cast it? You've got a team of guys whose job it is to go pound that guy to dust before he can get to you; your job was stopping his major threat (i.e. his spellcasting), which you achieved with Silence, not Banishment.


or LoS blocking effects

Funny how those thing tend to work with immediate effect when used on turn one. Why wait?


(or just GI enough people) and all that.

Pre. Buff.


Now, you could cast those spells normally without bothering with Banishment, but they will be cast one at a time, with the enemy knowing who cast which and the effects and location of each if he can see them.

Or...you can enjoy the benefit of having an extra 4th level spell slot because you planned exactly the order you were going to cast the spells you needed in advance. If we're blocking LoS, let's just do it. Then we're Silencing him? Great. What's next? A little difficult terrain or Restrained? You got it. Aside from spammable non-concentration effects to alter the battlefield directly, which I'll again point out are pretty limited in scope, all those concentration spells you want active when Banishment expires? Yeah, you can have them all active by the end of round one and then have your turkey-shoot.


Via Banishment? One minute he's standing there fighting the party, then this one mage or priest or crazy woodsman casts a single spell at him and he suddenly finds himself completely blinded (or unable to make any sounds and with somebody grabbing him) with traps (or pitfalls, if outdoors) all over the place every step he takes with attacks coming out of nowhere. He didn't know what spell was cast or what the party did, he CANNOT know what spell was cast or what the part did, BECAUSE he was incapacitated

I thought we were blinding him? How does he know who cast what after that first spell went off? Or even if any spells are being cast if the next spell is Silence? How does he know the Rogue didn't chuck a bear-trap at the bottom of the stairs or that the Druid didn't cast Spike Growth? Yes, Banishment gives you a little more time to set up the perfect death-trap but magic and many Class features mean you can set up a pretty decent one in very short order without having to risk Banishment failing.


Banishment also goes a step further and let you do things that take multiple actions to setup, even multiple , or if initiative (and the type or lack of Legendary Actions) permits, even broken defensive spells that aren't supposed to be cast in combat like LTH.

This point I concede; it's something that you wouldn't otherwise be able to do without Banishment (or it would take extreme pre-planning to achieve at least) and it's one reason why Banishment is a good spell. It's certainly not enough to elevate it much beyond "great", if it even gets it that far.


It skews the odds in your favor much more than any risk in introduces, unless you decide to cast it on something with an obvious good Cha save like a Dragon for some weird reason.

"Obvious good Cha saves" aren't that easy to spot. The Kraken, for example, doesn't have an amazingly great Cha Save, as you might expect, but +5 is still pretty decent. Decent enough to warrant a better plan than "let's risk everything on a 30% chance of the one spell we were relying on failing".


If you can afford to know every single monster that pops up and have the luxury of not needing to prepare something that can work against unexpected foes, then personally speaking I don't think your DM is challenging you enough.

Game-style will obviously change opinions and I freely admit that Banishment is a great reactive spell to have on hand for emergencies. That doesn't mean it's the best spell in the game and it certainly still doesn't make it anything like a spell I'd hinge a plan on.


And really, Banishment gets even better if you know what's coming

Everything gets better if you know what's coming. That doesn't say anything about Banishment, so much as it does the value of not going in half-cocked, hoping your hail-mary-pass pays off. Yes, there are situations that Banishment will shine; sometimes it's the right tool for the job. In my experience those times aren't, however, that frequent outside of daft (to my mind, but opinions will vary) dungeon crawl style games where you have no idea what you're going to face next and you're almost always playing reactively, not proactively.

As for Mords Hound; yeah, great trick that Banishment enables. Not without its flaws though. It requires you to be capable of restraining your target somehow, it requires that you be within 100ft of your target (well within the range of many ranged attacks and spells), it can see invisible and the etheral and it ignores illusions, but it doesn't ignore darkness (no Darkvision) or other spell schools (e.g. Fog Cloud will render it effectively blind)...I'm not saying it's a bad tactic (if somewhat wasteful as faras spell slots go), just that it's not a perfect deathtrap.

[Deathtongue]

I'm not going to get into the counterfactuals and setups you can do with Banishment. Don't get me wrong, I love creative solutions like that, but I'm not interested in getting involved in a bunch of example nitpicking. You shut out someone for up to a minute and you get some free time to do what you want. It's not as good as having your target still there for you to wail on. No kidding. But just them NOT BEING THERE is more than good enough for a game that revolves around bounded accuracy.


Game-style will obviously change opinions and I freely admit that Banishment is a great reactive spell to have on hand for emergencies. That doesn't mean it's the best spell in the game and it certainly still doesn't make it anything like a spell I'd hinge a plan on.I don't think of any guide, even the super in-depth hyperbolic guides like Treantmonk's, would call it the best spell ever. I wouldn't even call it the best 4th level spell. However, it IMO should never be ranked below 8 or 8.5/10 as a spell for several reasons:

1.) It's low level. If you have to upcast, then upcast, but you can't downcast, say, a Wall of Stone.
2.) It completely shuts the foe(s) out.
3.) The only way to break it early is to disrupt the caster's concentration. No worries about teleportation or chaff monsters shaking the big boss free or a lucky 19 on the die or even an unfortunate dispel magic.
4.) It targets a save that other disablers of its level do not. Now, as noted charisma isn't a total dump save for monsters like intelligence is. However, a lot of the mass disabling spells tend to target Dex, Str, or Wis, which are saves most mid-level plus monsters are good at. Banishment is one of the few (potential) mass-disables that don't target those saves, and unlike the illusion line of spells isn't subject to DM veto.
5.) It's on a lot of spell lists, even the spell lists specifically designed to be weaker in battlefield control than the other one. We can argue the marginal utility of a Banishment versus a Phantasmal Force or an Evard's Black Tentacles, but it's only a debate if you actually have spells to compare it to.

Compare banishment to other level 3-6 disables, especially the ones that get rated blue/sky blue/gold. Except for Wall of Force (which I think is legit overpowered) they run afoul of 2 or 3 of the above caveats.

Look at it this way: what spells (besides Wall of Force) can consistently do what Banishment brings to the table? If I'm a cleric that had that spell removed from my list, what would I replace it with, function-wise?

[ShikomeKidoMi]

SBanishment isn't that great a spell because it's worthless; it's clearly not. It's not a great spell because it doesn't really do anything itself (outside of banishing extraplanars for good and even then it's not really solving the problem so much as putting it off in the case of many more powerful foes).

Banishment is really good at breaking one big fight into two smaller, more manageable fights. And that's incredibly useful. It's actually not at it's best vs a single foe, though not useless there.

[JellyPooga]

However, it IMO should never be ranked below 8 or 8.5/10 as a spell

Oh yeah, don't get me wrong, it's a good spell. I disagree that it's "low level"; if we assume that most games rarely go above 15th level, it's not even available for a good half of your career and for that reason I rate it around a 7/10, maybe as high as 8.5 in a campaign featuring a lot of vulnerable targets (i.e. low Charisma and/or extraplanars). What I don't get is that it's often touted as a 9 or 10 and being the solution to almost any problem, because it's really not; many (if not most) of the scenarios people present as those where it shines can often be solved without Banishment.

[LudicSavant]

The big deal:
- Multi-round combat removal, potentially for multiple targets. Anything that does this is good (such as Hypnotic Pattern, etc).
- Unlike other forms of combat removal, does not allow for saves every round. You get 10 full rounds to finish off the remaining foes and prepare a deathtrap for the enemy's return.
- Unlike other forms of combat removal, the affected target is not available to target (and therefore aid).
- Attacks an unusual and typically low save (Charisma).

[coredump]

Single Opponent:

So here is the scenario, I put your party into a room/field/whatever and tell you that a single Bad Guy is going to appear in 1-9 rounds:
You get to decide exactly how many rounds until he appears
You get to know exactly what bad guy it will be
You get to decide exactly when he appears
You get to know exactly where he appears
Your entire party gets to ready an action for when he appears.
Part of the party gets to act a second time before he even gets an action

If you can't see how all of that provides a tremendous advantage.... I am not sure what else I can say about it.


Multiple Opponents:

You get to pick 1+ of your opponents, and make them 'sit out' the next 1-9 rounds of the fight while you focus fire on everyone else.
Then you get to Prepare, heal, buff, etc....then bring them back exactly when you want, to an exact place.... *and* everyone gets a readied action off first (and some folks a second action)...

Again, if you have played DnD for more than a month and can't immediately see how game-changing powerful that is.... I am not sure what else I can say about it.



EDIT: Heck, and none of that even touches on the situation when the target is from a different plane...... which changes the spell from very very powerful, to just about broken.

[JellyPooga]

Again, if you have played DnD for more than a month and can't immediately see how game-changing powerful that is.... I am not sure what else I can say about it.

Powerful? Yeah, maybe. Defintely "useful". I might even grant that it's "life-saving" under certain circumstances.
Game-changing? I'm still unconvinced. I mean, let's look at that list of yours;

- You get to decide exactly how many rounds until he appears - How much of an advantage is this, really? It's still limited to 1 minute without chain casting it, which requires a second caster capable of doing so and another 4th level spell slot expended. All this means is that you have the option of ending it earlier than 1 minute, so you get maximum usage out of other buffs/summons/etc. When we're predicating part of the power of Banishment on a quick win once it expires, whether your Greater Invisibility or Conjure Animals has 7 rounds remaining, compared to 5 if you'd pre-cast them before the encounter started; once the dust settles it's a pretty moot point.

- You get to know exactly what bad guy it will be - An efficient scout reveals the same information. A Chain Pact Warlock gets one of these at level 3, let alone any number of other options available for this purpose, most of which are not resource dependent.

- You get to decide exactly when he appears - This is the same point as the first.

- You get to know exactly where he appears - True, but you don't get to change that location. If he was in a disadvantageous position (for your team) before the Banishment, he's going to be in the same disadvantageous position when he returns. Yes, you will probably be able to make that position less advantagous for him (assuming you have access to it), but I'll say it again; that 1 minute time limit isn't much time to make significant alterations without expending futher resources, such as even more spell slots. For a 5-minute work-day style game, great, breeze the encounter by throwing all your resources into this one encounter (like the Mords Hounds discussed earlier), but if we're talking about Banishment being efficient and versatile, we need to be able to make the most of it on its own terms and that minute is little enough time to achieve much, if anything, of significance.

- Your entire party gets to ready an action for when he appears. - Yep. A bout of ready actions is one of the few actual boons Banishment provides against the target.

- Part of the party gets to act a second time before he even gets an action - Possibly. Initiative is Initiative and without metagaming to end the spell on a particular Initiative count, you can't decide this. If you end it at its maximum duration and the targets Initiative was directly after the Banishment casters, he's going to act straight after those readied actions. This is very dependent on the individual circumstances of the scenario and, more pertinantly, the result of somewhere in the region of 5 or more individual d20 rolls; i.e. too random to predict with any accuracy. This is more an argument in favour of "having a high Initiative modifier" than of Banishment itself.

I concede that taking out a major player to take an encounter apart piece-meal is definitely useful, if not powerful; it's probably the main reason I consider it a good spell. In this scenario, though, it still has to stick (and gauging whether a target is vulnerable or not isn't always easy; there are a couple of Class Features that'll do it, otherwise you're pretty much left guessing and it doesn't take a massive bonus to make it an unreliable spell, at best), it still uses your concentration (and you have to maintain it under combat conditions) and it's single-target unless up-cast (at which point it's competing with the likes of Wall of Force/Stone, Hold Monster, Animate Objects and Cloudkill and that's just if it's upcast to level 5).

[SharkForce]

i dunno, i'd much rather have to climb up a cliffside (just to provide one example where the opponent has an advantage) without a caster raining spells down on me while doing it, and then be able to grapple said caster the moment he returns while standing in a silence spell, personally.

getting up to a caster is much easier when the caster can't do anything to prevent you from doing it, and a silence spell is an easy lockdown for most spellcasters when combined with a highly reliable way to hold them inside it.

again, these things *can* be done in other ways... with really good scouting, you might be able to sneak a rogue up behind the caster before he can ambush you, and shove him off the cliff down to a silence spell and grappling warrior waiting at the bottom, for example. but banish lets you do that even if your scouting wasn't good enough, or if the wizard got lucky and avoided your scout, etc.