Does crafting require gold?

[Barstro]

TL;DR (which should always be first. Why have something at the end of a diatribe that gives the shortened version of what someone just read?)

Can found treasure or other items be used to craft magic items, or is the phrase "The character must spend the gold at the beginning of the construction process" exclusive?

Longer version;
DM has (IMO, correctly) stated that the town in which the party is about to spend a lot of downtime is too small to have the free capital needed to purchase our items. As such, the party would only realize a fraction of the market value upon selling items. Supply and demand would also hurt them the other way, where any items that the party might desire are in such short supply that they could be purchased only at a premium. While I agree with my DM's attempt to bring in good rules and realistic economic issues, I don't feel like spending an hour debating with the people at the table on if this really means anything if the rules allow a different option.

My character doesn't care about what's available in the marketplace; he can craft things very quickly and there is only a short list of what the party wants. But, while the party is flush with found treasure, it is lacking in actual gold pieces. Can treasure be "sacrificed" at the standard 50% market value to be used for the cost of crafting wondrous items?

[legomaster00156]

You're not actually using gold, that's just the gold value of the various crafting materials, rituals, etc. that magical crafting requires.

[Stealth Marmot]

If you are asking if you can barter with a shopowner to take a particular piece of treasure instead of actual currency, that's up to your DM.

Is it sound in theory? Sure. If the place would normally buy an item but doesn't have the coin for it, but instead can pay the player in raw materials, the merchant should be open to doing so. It's not uncommon practice in early barter economies like the ones you would see in D&D. Pawn shops especially, and those should be common.

That said, they might not give the full normal value of the treasure since it is in the end an inconvenience for them to have to go through the steps of getting the treasure resold or bartered again.

[Uncle Pine]

I think if Pathfinder didn't change anything, you can also use trade goods in place of actual gp when crafting magic items. The only ways to cannibalize actual equipment into magic items that I know of are things like the Ancestral Relic feat.

That said, you should really invest in making friends with a merchant living in the Far Realm when time is an issue: every hour there corresponds to 0 seconds on the Prime Material, so you'll always be able to sell all the loot you find on your journeys. Just be careful not to go crazy from just standing there.

[Barstro]

If you are asking if you can barter with a shopowner to take a particular piece of treasure instead of actual currency, that's up to your DM.

Is it sound in theory? Sure. If the place would normally buy an item but doesn't have the coin for it, but instead can pay the player in raw materials, the merchant should be open to doing so. It's not uncommon practice in early barter economies like the ones you would see in D&D. Pawn shops especially, and those should be common.

That said, they might not give the full normal value of the treasure since it is in the end an inconvenience for them to have to go through the steps of getting the treasure resold or bartered again.

I must not have been clear in my question.

Issue;
A PC wants to craft a few very expensive things.

What RAW says (in part).
"The character must spend the gold at the beginning of the construction process" (Nowhere does it say "or other items of equal value")

Problem;
The party has more than enough items to cover the cost at the standard 50% resale value.
However, market conditions are such that the party could only receive 25% resale value and would not have enough gold at the end for everything.

Specific example;
PC wants to craft a robe worth 4,000gp.
Normally, needs to spend 2,000gp.
But, PC has only a suit of armor worth 5,000gp. He could normally sell it for 2,500gp and use 2,000 to craft the robe. But in this market, he could get only 1,750gp and would not have enough to craft the robe.

Can he simply "sacrifice" the armor to get 2,500 fictional gp to spend on crafting the robe?

[BoutsofInsanity]

Best Answer: Ask your dm. Then ask him why not if he says no. Not for a story reason, ask him, why mechanically on a meta level is he afraid of letting you guys have the item you want as players?

Is it going to break the game?

Is it not allowed in the world and break the narrative?

Is it because he is worried that you will get to powerful?

Does he just want to knee jerk say no?

Dig into the reasoning and come up with a compremise. Or maybe he should just say yes.

Me as DM? I would say make an extended spellcraft check, lasts for an hour to destabilize the magic item and disenchant it to it's material components. DC is equal to 20 + Highest spell level on the item or something and if you suceed you get the material components you want. If you fail, the item becomes inert till you sacrifice spell slots and attempt the ritual again to re-energize the item.

Though that's me off the cuff of a DM trying not to lose momentum in a game as an Ad Hoc ruling. Then I would go look up the rules on it.

[sleepyphoenixx]

By RAW you have to spend gold. You can't "sacrifice" items worth x, use gems or whatever, it has to be gold. Anything beyond that you'll have to take up with your DM.

[Psyren]

If your GM is introducing that issue they may not want you crafting expensive items there at all. After all, if they can't afford to pay you for the Mona Lisa that was in the bad guy's den, what makes you think they have ground unicorn horn or whatever else you're actually buying to use as crafting materials lying around?

So rather than try to RAW your way out of this, I would simply ask them if you can craft X in that town given that it costs Y to do so and Z are the objects in your coffers. If they say yes, there's no issue, and if they say no, you'd have probably ended up in the argument you wanted to avoid anyway had you tried to just do it.

[Barstro]

Best Answer: Ask your dm.
I'm trying to avoid that. Asking for a DM ruling always ends up with a 15-30 minute debate. Aside from wasting time, the other thing I do not want to do is discourage any of my DMs from actually delving into the roleplaying side of things. This group is already woefully rp-light.


Is it going to break the game?
It could. We are running a prepared module and the PC is very optimized to craft things. But we have also run into issues before where a DM has forgotten that the party was supposed to have been told that they received certain items or attained a certain level, which has resulted in near TPKs.



Is it not allowed in the world and break the narrative?

Is it because he is worried that you will get to powerful?

Does he just want to knee jerk say no?
As stated, this is part of a prepared module. I'm fine with the market being the way it is, but I don't want to be hampered if the rules allow for a differ


Dig into the reasoning and come up with a compremise. Or maybe he should just say yes.

Me as DM? I would say make an extended spellcraft check, lasts for an hour to destabilize the magic item and disenchant it to it's material components. DC is equal to 20 + Highest spell level on the item or something and if you suceed you get the material components you want. If you fail, the item becomes inert till you sacrifice spell slots and attempt the ritual again to re-energize the item.

Though that's me off the cuff of a DM trying not to lose momentum in a game as an Ad Hoc ruling. Then I would go look up the rules on it.
For reasons stated above, a compromise would be time consuming and more annoying that an outright ban.

It is best to "look up the rules on it" first. That way I don't have to initiate a time-sucking debate. That's why I'm here.

[Stealth Marmot]

I must not have been clear in my question.

Issue;
A PC wants to craft a few very expensive things.

What RAW says (in part).
"The character must spend the gold at the beginning of the construction process" (Nowhere does it say "or other items of equal value")

Problem;
The party has more than enough items to cover the cost at the standard 50% resale value.
However, market conditions are such that the party could only receive 25% resale value and would not have enough gold at the end for everything.
Emphasis mine.

That's your DM giving you a soft no. In essence, the gold requirement is the player buying the raw materials for it. Your DM telling you that you can only get 25% market value for the items is telling you that you can't get the raw materials necessary because the items you have don't have the necessary market value to equal what you would need for the raw materials.

Unless the DM says that you can work the market in a way that you can barter for better value to exchange the items for the necessary raw materials directly (which his statement concerning the market is an implication that he does not want you to do be able to do so currently), you can't get the item created.

In 3.5 D&D and Pathfinder you can't "sacrifice" the items like you're disenchanting them for raw materials like in World of Warcraft, although I seem to recall that was possible in 4th Edition D&D.

[Barstro]

That's your DM giving you a soft no.
It's really just my DM interpreting a module. I do not think he has any agenda in this.


In 3.5 D&D and Pathfinder you can't "sacrifice" the items like you're disenchanting them for raw materials like in World of Warcraft, although I seem to recall that was possible in 4th Edition D&D.
If that is RAW, then I am fine with it. I just want to make sure of what my options are (or are not, in this case).

[Segev]

As has been said, the general conceit is that the gold you're spending on crafting is buying mystic reagents, special materials to make the item "magical" in the right way, etc. Maybe you're working rare gems into the leather to hold particular enchantments, or you're tanning it or treating it in oils from an exotic source.

You could try to argue that you're cannibalizing such mystic pieces from the existing magic items. Or that you're re-working existing magic items to use their base enchantment-holding properties but to have different magical effects. Or that you need rare herbs and reagents that can be found in nature, and that you're hiring townsfolk to help you locate them rather than paying a shop for already-located ones.

[Psyren]

It's really just my DM interpreting a module. I do not think he has any agenda in this.


If that is RAW, then I am fine with it. I just want to make sure of what my options are (or are not, in this case).

The problem is that you're asking for a RAW solution to a non-RAW problem. By RAW you get 50% resale value. Your GM is already outside RAW, so trying to stay within RAW is why the math isn't working. Hence all the "talk it out" suggestions.

[Barstro]

As has been said, the general conceit is that the gold you're spending on crafting is buying mystic reagents, special materials to make the item "magical" in the right way, etc. Maybe you're working rare gems into the leather to hold particular enchantments, or you're tanning it or treating it in oils from an exotic source.

You could try to argue that you're cannibalizing such mystic pieces from the existing magic items. Or that you're re-working existing magic items to use their base enchantment-holding properties but to have different magical effects. Or that you need rare herbs and reagents that can be found in nature, and that you're hiring townsfolk to help you locate them rather than paying a shop for already-located ones.

Nothing that the party has is really logically similar to what needs to be crafted. This does provide me with a decent "it's not about the gold, it's about getting other items" path for in-character negotiation and bartering. But the PC tanked charisma for roleplaying purposes, so it could likewise be difficult to try to barter.

Too bad Teleport is not available yet.

[Barstro]

The problem is that you're asking for a RAW solution to a non-RAW problem. By RAW you get 50% resale value. Your GM is already outside RAW, so trying to stay within RAW is why the math isn't working. Hence all the "talk it out" suggestions.
I haven't had the opportunity to DM and, thus, not really researched the issue...
It seams like RAW would have rules that a tiny isolated village would not have the resources available to pay 30,000gp for a powerful item that the party doesn't need. Why the hell is some villager hoarding that much gold?

BTW: "25%" was a number I used for an example. I believe the actual ruling is "talk to me and I'll let you know if you can even sell it".

[Segev]

Nothing that the party has is really logically similar to what needs to be crafted. This does provide me with a decent "it's not about the gold, it's about getting other items" path for in-character negotiation and bartering. But the PC tanked charisma for roleplaying purposes, so it could likewise be difficult to try to barter.

Too bad Teleport is not available yet.

Did all the PCs tank charisma? Explain to the party face (i.e. whoever has the highest appropriate social stat/skill) what you need, and let him do any negotiating IC.

It sounds to me like, if the DM is not trying to indirectly deny you items but is really just concerned about verisimilitude, that the problem with this town is that they don't have the market for what you want, period. Bartering your magic items won't get you what you need if there's nobody who sells what you need. Which is why you turn to the RP of identifying what the actual ingredients are and looking at ways to get those without having to find a shop that sells them. Use gold or even items useful to the townsfolk to pay for services in getting ahold of them.

Maybe discuss with the DM what the actual shopping list is for the items needed to make your magic toys, with gp market values next to them, so you can buy them when next in town or can look for other ways to get them as loot drops or from deliberate hunting.

[Psyren]

I haven't had the opportunity to DM and, thus, not really researched the issue...
It seams like RAW would have rules that a tiny isolated village would not have the resources available to pay 30,000gp for a powerful item that the party doesn't need. Why the hell is some villager hoarding that much gold?

Oh it does have rules that say that - in which case the expected solution is "go to a bigger town."

[Barstro]

Oh it does have rules that say that - in which case the expected solution is "go to a bigger town."
There's the rub; that option isn't available just yet. No worries, eventually the items will be crafted. I was just trying to find a way to craft them sooner than later.