Ways to stop an Ancient Dragons Breath Weapon? (3.5)

[Zephonim]

So the party has a Ur-priest/psion/Thrallherd theurge, a Shadowcraft Incantatrix Illusionist Wizard, and a paladin.

The ancient red dragon is kitted the **** out and has tempest breath and lives in a volcano in the middle of a desert. His tempest breath creates tornadoes whenever he uses his breath weapon and he is mostly melee based from what we have heard.

We have an Artificer cohort who doesn't fight only creates gear for us. So we might be able to craft something...

Now we aren't fighting it any time soon nor does it know it's on our radar. We were thinking of making an immovable rod harpoon with like 10 or more immovable rods to root the damn monster in place but still our main issue is its breath weapon.

By the time we face it we will probably be level 17. I don't really care about the CR considering i'll be able to summon elemental monoliths but I was hoping someone knows a way to stop dragon breath weapons in 3.5

Also our wealth by level is absolutely ****ing insane... I have potentially made up to 300,000gp. At level 10 from essentially running the worlds greatest circus at a National fair. Meanwhile the Thrallherd is a baron and selling massive amounts of Linen soon and he's going to make bank.

[flappeercraft]

Anything that blocks line of effect should do so Celerity and Grater Shadow Conjuration Wall of Stone could be something the Wizard could do to stop it or you can just get immunity to the breath weapon damage.

[sleepyphoenixx]

You can get immunity to wind effects with the Stormrage spell.
There's also magic items for that like the Ring of Weatherproofing (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20050311a). There's also a set of full plate that grants immunity to wind effects in one of the FR books, but i don't recall which one.
Alternatively you could just become big.
The fire shouldn't be a problem. Cast Energy Immunity or use any number of ways to get permanent or temporary immunity to fire. Or just get Evasion and high reflex saves.

I'd be more concerned with the fact that an ancient red dragon is (at least) a level 15 sorcerer.
If your DM plays it anywhere near its int score - and your party sounds quite high-op so i'd expect he will - you'll have far bigger problems than the breath weapon.

[ATHATH]

"So the party has a Ur-priest/psion/Thrallherd theurge, a Shadowcraft Incantatrix Illusionist Wizard, and a paladin."

One of these is not like the others.

Isn't the Thrallherd going to cause issues with the Paladin's code of conduct?

Be prepared for the dragon to circle strafe you. I'd link you to the relevant Counter Monkey video, but I'm on my phone.

[Keral]

Well, first thing that comes to mind is an antimagic field. Breath weapons should be (Su) and not work in one.

Now, I'm not sure how much it's gonna help you overall, but if the party stays within its area - so very close to the caster, the breath weapon should simply not affect you. At least if I remember how it interacts with things correctly.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Well, first thing that comes to mind is an antimagic field. Breath weapons should be (Su) and not work in one.

Now, I'm not sure how much it's gonna help you overall, but if the party stays within its area - so very close to the caster, the breath weapon should simply not affect you. At least if I remember how it interacts with things correctly.

The problem is that normal humanoids kind of need magic, magic items and their own supernatural abilities to not be dragon food.

[Keral]

Well yes, that's why I said it probably wouldn't help much.

However, since from what I gathered their plan is to immobilize the dragon to avoid him hitting them in melee, it might still be worth considering. If they truly manage to root him to the spot and the paladin is able to hit his AC with a nonmagical weapon they might defeat him. After some time. Also, if he can't retaliate with his natural weapons, his only alternatives are casting or the breath weapon, an antimagic field protects them from both so it's not like the dragon can do anything else, I think.



At the very least it's a good option should they need a break to heal up or get out.

[fallensavior]

So the party has a Ur-priest/psion/Thrallherd theurge, a Shadowcraft Incantatrix Illusionist Wizard, and a paladin.

The ancient red dragon is kitted the **** out and has tempest breath and lives in a volcano in the middle of a desert. His tempest breath creates tornadoes whenever he uses his breath weapon and he is mostly melee based from what we have heard.

We have an Artificer cohort who doesn't fight only creates gear for us. So we might be able to craft something...

Now we aren't fighting it any time soon nor does it know it's on our radar. We were thinking of making an immovable rod harpoon with like 10 or more immovable rods to root the damn monster in place but still our main issue is its breath weapon.

By the time we face it we will probably be level 17. I don't really care about the CR considering i'll be able to summon elemental monoliths but I was hoping someone knows a way to stop dragon breath weapons in 3.5

Also our wealth by level is absolutely ****ing insane... I have potentially made up to 300,000gp. At level 10 from essentially running the worlds greatest circus at a National fair. Meanwhile the Thrallherd is a baron and selling massive amounts of Linen soon and he's going to make bank.

If you have a breath weapon, you are immune to that type of breath weapon. So Shapechange or Polymorph into something that has the same type of breath weapon.

[Deophaun]

If you have a breath weapon, you are immune to that type of breath weapon.
No, you are immune to your own breath weapon, not to breath weapons of the same type as your own.

[fallensavior]

No, you are immune to your own breath weapon, not to breath weapons of the same type as your own.

That wouldn't make sense. How would a gorgon not petrify itself?

[sleepyphoenixx]

Well yes, that's why I said it probably wouldn't help much.

However, since from what I gathered their plan is to immobilize the dragon to avoid him hitting them in melee, it might still be worth considering. If they truly manage to root him to the spot and the paladin is able to hit his AC with a nonmagical weapon they might defeat him. After some time. Also, if he can't retaliate with his natural weapons, his only alternatives are casting or the breath weapon, an antimagic field protects them from both so it's not like the dragon can do anything else, I think.



At the very least it's a good option should they need a break to heal up or get out.

I doubt that plan will work. Immobilizing a caster with 7th level spells is pretty hard.
I'd be surprised if the dragon didn't have Freedom of Movement and at least one teleport, along with a bunch of other buffs. Or access to instantaneous conjurations, which makes the AMF a death trap for the party.
Since it's apparently melee focused it could also be a Wyrm of War, with access to martial maneuvers. Or just spend a feat on the Shadow Jaunt maneuver to suddenly appear in your face and full attack anyway.

Point is, this is not a fight that you can win with cheap tricks unless your DM plays the dragon like an int 8 creature instead of the int 24+ it has.
You need a few things to stand a basic chance imo.
- The ability to negate/avoid/tank the breath weapon (discussed above)
- The ability to avoid getting full attacked (immediate action teleports are good for this)
- The ability to take at least one hit and stay standing (it's pretty much inevitable that you'll take one, with the dragons reach, speed and whatever spells/other abilities it might have)
- The ability to counter its mobility (either being fast enough to keep up or able to hinder it)
- Anything that you'd usually need against a level 15 sorcerer (high saves, various immunities, dispel effects, etc). Just keep in mind that this sorcerer is tougher than most fighters, with all-high saves and the ability to rip you a new one if you take an AoO with a really high attack bonus.

Note that this is the absolute minimum imo. Against a dragon played to its potential this gives you a chance, but unless you exceed those requirements there's a good chance someone will die.

[Deophaun]

That wouldn't make sense. How would a gorgon not petrify itself other gorgons?
Fixed, as obviously if you are immune to your own breath weapon, you are immune to your own breath weapon.

As for the answer to the sensible question I'm pretending you asked: with Fortitude saves, like everything else.

[fallensavior]

Fixed, as obviously if you are immune to your own breath weapon, you are immune to your own breath weapon.

As for the answer to the sensible question I'm pretending you asked: with Fortitude saves, like everything else.

Sorry, my question was poorly phrased. It still doesn't make sense for it to work that way though.

Like when the MM also says in the same section that outsiders are proficient with their own weapons mentioned in their entries, do you assume that that means the specific items that that monster possesses? Or do you infer that it would make more sense that they are proficient with the type?

If I'm immune to this petrifying breath on my skin and even in my lungs and mouth, why would I not be immune to any other petrifying breath?

[Deophaun]

Like when the MM also says in the same section that outsiders are proficient with their own weapons mentioned in their entries...
No it doesn't. It says:

Proficient with all simple and martial weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry.
No "their own" there.

[Zephonim]

"So the party has a Ur-priest/psion/Thrallherd theurge, a Shadowcraft Incantatrix Illusionist Wizard, and a paladin."

One of these is not like the others.

Isn't the Thrallherd going to cause issues with the Paladin's code of conduct?

Be prepared for the dragon to circle strafe you. I'd link you to the relevant Counter Monkey video, but I'm on my phone.



Oh we've already got that covered i can use shadow conjuration/evocation to cast wing bind right now my dc for heightened to 7th level spells is DC 28. I can boost that later by getting a ring of gnomekind and caine's flagon of shadows to dc 31 but at 10th level yeah dragons gonna have a hard ass time on that reflex save.


Oh and the paladin is lawful evil. GM doesn't run with paladins of tyranny being chaotic evil hes 100% for lawful evil paladins all the way. He gets to keep lay on hands and his fear aura. Also the paladin is a new guy... very much a greenhorn to 3.5 im boosting him by persisting his paladin buff spells

[Coretron03]

The green part of the prismatic wall spell?

[Zephonim]

I doubt that plan will work. Immobilizing a caster with 7th level spells is pretty hard.
I'd be surprised if the dragon didn't have Freedom of Movement and at least one teleport, along with a bunch of other buffs. Or access to instantaneous conjurations, which makes the AMF a death trap for the party.
Since it's apparently melee focused it could also be a Wyrm of War, with access to martial maneuvers. Or just spend a feat on the Shadow Jaunt maneuver to suddenly appear in your face and full attack anyway.

Point is, this is not a fight that you can win with cheap tricks unless your DM plays the dragon like an int 8 creature instead of the int 24+ it has.
You need a few things to stand a basic chance imo.
- The ability to negate/avoid/tank the breath weapon (discussed above)
- The ability to avoid getting full attacked (immediate action teleports are good for this)
- The ability to take at least one hit and stay standing (it's pretty much inevitable that you'll take one, with the dragons reach, speed and whatever spells/other abilities it might have)
- The ability to counter its mobility (either being fast enough to keep up or able to hinder it)
- Anything that you'd usually need against a level 15 sorcerer (high saves, various immunities, dispel effects, etc). Just keep in mind that this sorcerer is tougher than most fighters, with all-high saves and the ability to rip you a new one if you take an AoO with a really high attack bonus.

Note that this is the absolute minimum imo. Against a dragon played to its potential this gives you a chance, but unless you exceed those requirements there's a good chance someone will die.

GM doesn't use book of nine swords so we should be good on that.

Also he has a bunch of magic towers all over the ****ing place that **** with conjuration teleportation can get really bad.

I'm going to have persisted greater mirror image, persisted Greater Blink and the best part is i'll be a shadow adept by the time we fight this thing and it will have to make a hefty cl check to use true seeing on me. The thrallherd theurge is just gonna be ****ing insane with buff spells regardless and i can persist his **** as well... and the paladin will be kitted out in the best gear we can make him. I'll try and get those anklets of translocation for the whole team

[Kelb_Panthera]

Tower shield. Get it in adamantine or aurorum to soak the damage.

[animewatcha]

According to SRD, ancient red dragon is breath weapon is cone of 60 feet or so ( if I am comparing everything right ). So Dragon close enough to use natural weapons or it's breath weapon is a dragon that is close enough for ranged Shivering Touch from frostburn. Just gotta beat the SR.

[sleepyphoenixx]

GM doesn't use book of nine swords so we should be good on that.

Also he has a bunch of magic towers all over the ****ing place that **** with conjuration teleportation can get really bad.

I'm going to have persisted greater mirror image, persisted Greater Blink and the best part is i'll be a shadow adept by the time we fight this thing and it will have to make a hefty cl check to use true seeing on me. The thrallherd theurge is just gonna be ****ing insane with buff spells regardless and i can persist his **** as well... and the paladin will be kitted out in the best gear we can make him. I'll try and get those anklets of translocation for the whole team
Try the Shadow Cloak (DoTU) instead of the anklets (they're swift action, so they won't help you avoid a full attack if the dragon swift-teleports in your face).
Greater Blink is good, but i'd be careful relying on illusions. They're just as easily bypassed by Blindsight as True Seeing. Not saying don't use them, but don't bet your life on them working.
Note that Blink can be bypassed with some pretty cheap magic items too, but it's not quite as likely.
Another good idea is getting a big chunk of temporary hp. Temp hp from different sources stack, so you can get a solid buffer going with the amount of casting power you have available.
Spells:

Aid (Cl2, Lck2) 1d8+CL (max 10), touch, 1 min/level
Aid, Mass (Cl3) 1d8+CL (max 15), AoE 1 min/level
Aid, Legions (Cl4) 1d8 +Cl (max 20), AoE 1 min/level
Bears's Heart (Dr4, Cl5) +1d4/Cl, AoE, 1 round/level
Chaav's Laugh (Cl5) 1d8 +CL (max 20), good only, AoE 1/min level
Divine Power (Cl4) 1/CL, personal, 1 round/level
False Life (Wiz2) 1d10 +CL (max 10), personal, 1 hour/level
Feast of Champions (CL9) 1d8 +1/2CL (max 10), AoE, 12 hours
Heart of Earth (Dr4, Wiz4, WJ4) 2xCL (max 30), personal, 1 hour/level
Heat Drain (Cl8) 2/target, AoE attack, 20ft burst, 1 min/level
Heroes' Feast (Brd6, Cl6) 1d8 +1/2CL (max 10), AoE, 12 hours
Heroism, Greater (Brd5, Wiz6) +1/CL (max 20), touch, 1 min/level
Leech Undeath (Cl7, Wiz8) 5/CL, single attack, close, 1 hour
Lion's Roar (CL8) 1d8 +CL (max 20), AoE, 1 min/level
Righteous Fury (Pa3) 5/CL (max 50), personal, 1 hour
Righteous Wrath of the Faithful (Cl7) 1d8 or 2d8, AoE, 1 round/level
Ruin Delver's Fortune (Ba4, Wiz4) 4d8 + Cha, personal, 1 round/level
Sta[wart Pact (Cl5) 5 x 1/2CL (max 35), touch, permanent until triggered at half health, then 1 round/level
Unicorn Blood (Dr5, Wiz5) 1 x CL (max 15) or 2 x CL (max 30), touch, non-self, 10 min/level
Vampiric Touch (Wiz 3) 1d6 x 1/2 CL (max 10d6), touch attack, 1 hour



According to SRD, ancient red dragon is breath weapon is cone of 60 feet or so ( if I am comparing everything right ). So Dragon close enough to use natural weapons or it's breath weapon is a dragon that is close enough for ranged Shivering Touch from frostburn. Just gotta beat the SR.
I hate that argument (and any DMs who make it true). It's a level 15 sorcerer with 24 int. Why in the world wouldn't it cover its most glaring weakness? Why in the world wouldn't you, as a DM, do it?
All my dragons learn Friendly Fire just to immediate-action throw that sucker back into the parties face. Let's see how your full plate wearing fighter likes being shivering-touched! :smalltongue:

[weckar]

GM doesn't run with paladins of tyranny being chaotic evil hes 100% for lawful evil paladins all the way.Isn't that the default? :smallconfused: I thought Paladin of Destruction were the CE ones?

[animewatcha]

Try the Shadow Cloak (DoTU) instead of the anklets (they're swift action, so they won't help you avoid a full attack if the dragon swift-teleports in your face).
Greater Blink is good, but i'd be careful relying on illusions. They're just as easily bypassed by Blindsight as True Seeing. Not saying don't use them, but don't bet your life on them working.
Note that Blink can be bypassed with some pretty cheap magic items too, but it's not quite as likely.
Another good idea is getting a big chunk of temporary hp. Temp hp from different sources stack, so you can get a solid buffer going with the amount of casting power you have available.
Spells:

Aid (Cl2, Lck2) 1d8+CL (max 10), touch, 1 min/level
Aid, Mass (Cl3) 1d8+CL (max 15), AoE 1 min/level
Aid, Legions (Cl4) 1d8 +Cl (max 20), AoE 1 min/level
Bears's Heart (Dr4, Cl5) +1d4/Cl, AoE, 1 round/level
Chaav's Laugh (Cl5) 1d8 +CL (max 20), good only, AoE 1/min level
Divine Power (Cl4) 1/CL, personal, 1 round/level
False Life (Wiz2) 1d10 +CL (max 10), personal, 1 hour/level
Feast of Champions (CL9) 1d8 +1/2CL (max 10), AoE, 12 hours
Heart of Earth (Dr4, Wiz4, WJ4) 2xCL (max 30), personal, 1 hour/level
Heat Drain (Cl8) 2/target, AoE attack, 20ft burst, 1 min/level
Heroes' Feast (Brd6, Cl6) 1d8 +1/2CL (max 10), AoE, 12 hours
Heroism, Greater (Brd5, Wiz6) +1/CL (max 20), touch, 1 min/level
Leech Undeath (Cl7, Wiz8) 5/CL, single attack, close, 1 hour
Lion's Roar (CL8) 1d8 +CL (max 20), AoE, 1 min/level
Righteous Fury (Pa3) 5/CL (max 50), personal, 1 hour
Righteous Wrath of the Faithful (Cl7) 1d8 or 2d8, AoE, 1 round/level
Ruin Delver's Fortune (Ba4, Wiz4) 4d8 + Cha, personal, 1 round/level
Sta[wart Pact (Cl5) 5 x 1/2CL (max 35), touch, permanent until triggered at half health, then 1 round/level
Unicorn Blood (Dr5, Wiz5) 1 x CL (max 15) or 2 x CL (max 30), touch, non-self, 10 min/level
Vampiric Touch (Wiz 3) 1d6 x 1/2 CL (max 10d6), touch attack, 1 hour



I hate that argument (and any DMs who make it true). It's a level 15 sorcerer with 24 int. Why in the world wouldn't it cover its most glaring weakness? Why in the world wouldn't you, as a DM, do it?
All my dragons learn Friendly Fire just to immediate-action throw that sucker back into the parties face. Let's see how your full plate wearing fighter likes being shivering-touched! :smalltongue:

Energy substitution acid/sonic and Contigent spell for greater dispel magic to go off if friendly fire goes off. Dragon may have intelligence, but we have a class is that based on int as well.

[Deophaun]

I hate that argument (and any DMs who make it true). It's a level 15 sorcerer with 24 int. Why in the world wouldn't it cover its most glaring weakness? Why in the world wouldn't you, as a DM, do it?
I hate that argument, as it assumes every character in the game has metagame knowledge of every spell and there is no such thing as natural talent; as if people plan their lives by cracking open a bunch of splat books and have the exact same opportunities to learn anything. Why would there even be commoners in such a world? It's such a sub-optimal choice for anything except being a chicken farmer!

[Gemini476]

Tower shield. Get it in adamantine or aurorum to soak the damage.

Yeah, this is probably literally the reason for the whole "total cover" thing? Hiding behind a shield to protect yourself from dragonfire is an iconic image.

A dragon does 20d10 fire damage - average 110. Fire damage is halved before hardness, so 55 - the standard (wooden) tower shield has harness 5, so 50 damage, and only 20hp so melts.

Getting a tower shield made out of steel (two inches, as per the hit points for the wooden one) gives you hardness 10 and 60hp - the shield survives with 15hp left, so won't survive a second blast.

Adamantine is expensive, but leads to hardness 20 and 80hp - the shield survives with 45hp left, which might be enough to survive a second blast. AnyDice puts 40d10/2-40 as having a 13.61% chance of getting through the shield, so while you might avoid two shots it's by no means guaranteed. IIRC destroying the cover means it hits whatever's behind it, so that can be nasty. (This also makes Aurorum not really worth it in this case - it's +2000gp over adamantine for the hardness and hit points of steel and a full-round action to repair it. If you need to repair it, you already got hit by the breath and you're spending a full round action not attacking the dragon.)

Each +1 enchantment gives +2 hardness and +10hp, which may or may not be worth the price point. A +1 adamantine tower shield costs 3030gp - 2030gp's worth of craft(armorsmithing) (base DC 14+separate DC20 300gp masterwork component), and then 1000gp's worth of Craft Magic Arms and Armor. So, what, one day for the latter and a year or so of smithing? I'd go with Fabricate, probably, or just see if you can just outright buy adamantine tower shields.
A +1 adamantine shield has a 0.43% chance of failing to the second blast - a +2 one so close to zero it's a two-decimal rounding error.


I'm sure there's some magic item or spell out there that let you handle heavy winds better, as well - maybe look into that? As well as the standard fire immunity, of course. There might not be something that handles tornado-class winds, but if there is it's a great find.
Although a tempest breath tornado is also just 1d4d4 nonlethal (1-16, average 6.25) and maybe 6d6 (av.21) damage if you get the whole DC30 funnel rigmarole? The instantaneous nature of the feat kind of takes the sting out of the worst of it.

[Keral]

Yeah, this is probably literally the reason for the whole "total cover" thing? Hiding behind a shield to protect yourself from dragonfire is an iconic image.

A dragon does 20d10 fire damage - average 110. Fire damage is halved before hardness, so 55 - the standard (wooden) tower shield has hardness 5, so 50 damage, and only 20hp so melts.

Getting a tower shield made out of steel (two inches, as per the hit points for the wooden one) gives you hardness 10 and 60hp - the shield survives with 15hp left, so won't survive a second blast.

Adamantine is expensive, but leads to hardness 20 and 80hp - the shield survives with 45hp left, which might be enough to survive a second blast. AnyDice puts 40d10/2-40 as having a 13.61% chance of getting through the shield, so while you might avoid two shots it's by no means guaranteed. IIRC destroying the cover means it hits whatever's behind it, so that can be nasty. (This also makes Aurorum not really worth it in this case - it's +2000gp over adamantine for the hardness and hit points of steel and a full-round action to repair it. If you need to repair it, you already got hit by the breath and you're spending a full round action not attacking the dragon.)

Each +1 enchantment gives +2 hardness and +10hp, which may or may not be worth the price point. A +1 adamantine tower shield costs 3030gp - 2030gp's worth of craft(armorsmithing) (base DC 14+separate DC20 300gp masterwork component), and then 1000gp's worth of Craft Magic Arms and Armor. So, what, one day for the latter and a year or so of smithing? I'd go with Fabricate, probably, or just see if you can just outright buy adamantine tower shields.
A +1 adamantine shield has a 0.43% chance of failing to the second blast - a +2 one so close to zero it's a two-decimal rounding error.


I'm sure there's some magic item or spell out there that let you handle heavy winds better, as well - maybe look into that? As well as the standard fire immunity, of course. There might not be something that handles tornado-class winds, but if there is it's a great find.
Although a tempest breath tornado is also just 1d4d4 nonlethal (1-16, average 6.25) and maybe 6d6 (av.21) damage if you get the whole DC30 funnel rigmarole? The instantaneous nature of the feat kind of takes the sting out of the worst of it.


Uh I hadn't considered things like this.

Well, resist energy would help. Adamantine shield with resist energy 20+30 reduction*. A +5 shield gives another 10 hardness and we get to 60. Which should suffice. Terribly expensive, of course, and not sure if it's practical, but the op said they potentially have quite a bit of money to spend soo...


*this is all assuming resist energy applies after the damage has been halved because of hardness and not before.

[Gemini476]

Uh I hadn't considered things like this.

Well, resist energy would help. Adamantine shield with resist energy 20+30 reduction*. A +5 shield gives another 10 hardness and we get to 60. Which should suffice. Terribly expensive, of course, and not sure if it's practical, but the op said they potentially have quite a bit of money to spend soo...


*this is all assuming resist energy applies after the damage has been halved because of hardness and not before.

Eh, it's probably just cheaper to have a bunch of 7030gp +2 shields. They're one-use, pretty much, but since they're pretty much guaranteed to survive two shots (not including reflex save!) you've got a minimum of six rounds of combat right there - one firebreath, 1+1d4 recharge, second firebreath, 1+1d4 recharge... It's only on round seven-thirteen (average ten, but two dice is swingy) that your shield will fail.
If your combat against a single opponent in high-level 3E takes seven rounds, you've got issues.

Do note, though, that you're still fighting a sorcerer and the shield doesn't stop targeted effects. Also, the Wizard probably has issues with the 50% spell failure.

I'm also not really clear on what action it takes to take cover behind the shield - I think it might be one of those "not an action" things, with the cost being that you can't attack during that round? Maybe? I'm not really sure, to be honest.


If your Ur-Priest has access to ninth-level spells, Mantle of the Fiery Spirit (Sandstorm) costs 5000gp and 2000xp but gives a creature the (fire) subtype (and thus immunity) forever. It's instantaneous, too.
This means immunity to fire, but also vulnerability to cold. So watch out.
(It's also 16,200gp if you can find a 15th-level Druid to cast it, so hey.)

Also, Energy Immunity (Spell Compendium) is a sixth-level Cleric spell (and seventh-level Wizard spell) that just straight-up gives a creature immunity to an energy type for one day. A divine scroll of it costs 1,650gp, so for a party of three that's 4,950gp. Beware dispelling, though. You're fighting a 15th-level Sorcerer, after all, and the scroll is just CL11.

It looks like the Ur-Priest can also just become immune to the tornado bit of the breath through Stormrage (Spell Compendium) - it's an 8th-level spell with a personal range that only lasts for 1 minute/level, though, so that only covers one PC.

[sleepyphoenixx]

I hate that argument, as it assumes every character in the game has metagame knowledge of every spell and there is no such thing as natural talent; as if people plan their lives by cracking open a bunch of splat books and have the exact same opportunities to learn anything. Why would there even be commoners in such a world? It's such a sub-optimal choice for anything except being a chicken farmer!

There's nothing metagamey about an ancient red dragon knowing it's vulnerable to cold and doing something about it. Or bad at dodging (low touch AC).
Or generally taking all the precautions a high level spellcaster would, because that's what they are. A spellcaster that's also a supremely tough melee threat, not a dumb beast that can't keep up with those tricky humans and their plans.
It's also not metagamey for a creature that naturally casts sorcerer and cleric spells and is at least 800 years old to learn about what spells are around.
Shivering Touch isn't rare. It's not a custom spell few people have access to. Every mid-level cleric gets it. Every halfway competent spellcaster knows about it.

And i find it very hard to believe that a world where high-op builds like the OPs two casters exist have legendary monsters with way above human intelligence and centuries of experience not taking common sense precautions like that.
It's fine to downplay monster abilities in a low-op party for the sake of fun, but if your players come to the table with shadowcraft incantatrices and thrallherd ur-priests the DM should stop pulling his punches and play monsters to the same level of optimization.

[Deophaun]

There's nothing metagamey about an ancient red dragon knowing it's vulnerable to cold and doing something about it. Or bad at dodging (low touch AC).
Or generally taking all the precautions a high level spellcaster would, because that's what they are.
Bolded the point of contention. What you call precautions a high level spellcaster would take, I call precautions an optimizing player would take. Elminster is a high level spellcaster, and he doesn't take those precautions. Why? Because he is not controlled by a player with the entire edition's splatbooks laid out in front of him. Instead, he is a product of his circumstances, abilities determined by narrative. He can only learn that which he has the opportunity to learn. And he's still a Gary Stu!

Players bend their character's narrative to obtain what they want to obtain. Want to learn dweomer vortex? It doesn't matter that it's largely unheard of, there just so happens to be a scroll of it for sale in this city, because reasons. Your sorcerer wants to learn arcane fusion? Sure, his blood just so happens to contain that magic. He wants to swap out major image for invisibility sphere? Great, they're both equally easy for him to learn; he never has to worry about being a genius at figments but just not having a talent at that whole making things transparent bit. The player gives his character the opportunity to learn and be anything. Assuming that ability is universal across the game world is metagame thinking.

Again, we must ask, why is anyone a commoner if the wealth of options in the game is completely open to any and all NPCs? Because that's the world super-competent dragons as standard requires.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Bolded the point of contention. What you call precautions a high level spellcaster would take, I call precautions an optimizing player would take. Elminster is a high level spellcaster, and he doesn't take those precautions. Why? Because he is not controlled by a player with the entire edition's splatbooks laid out in front of him. Instead, he is a product of his circumstances, abilities determined by narrative. He can only learn that which he has the opportunity to learn. And he's still a Gary Stu!

Players bend their character's narrative to obtain what they want to obtain. Want to learn dweomer vortex? It doesn't matter that it's largely unheard of, there just so happens to be a scroll of it for sale in this city, because reasons. Your sorcerer wants to learn arcane fusion? Sure, his blood just so happens to contain that magic. He wants to swap out major image for invisibility sphere? Great, they're both equally easy for him to learn; he never has to worry about being a genius at figments but just not having a talent at that whole making things transparent bit. The player gives his character the opportunity to learn and be anything. Assuming that ability is universal across the game world is metagame thinking.

Again, we must ask, why is anyone a commoner if the wealth of options in the game is completely open to any and all NPCs? Because that's the world super-competent dragons as standard requires.
Equalling commoners to centuries-old dragons is completely senseless. A farmer doesn't spend his life making supernatural enemies and trying to survive them. He farms.
But a dragon is already starting in the big leagues simply by virtue of its race. There are no dragon commoners.
Dragons that aren't sufficiently skilled and prepared go the way of bad wizards. They die. They don't get to the Ancient age category. The same applies to everything and everyone that is going to engage in combat for a living.

A commoner is a commoner is cannon fodder no matter if you're low-op or high-op. But a high level wizard doesn't get to be high level unless he can actually keep up in the world, so a high-level wizard in a high-op game is going to be optimized.
A high level warrior can be a fighter in a low-op game, but in a high-op game it makes far more sense that a martial adept would survive long enough to actually get there because the fighter either stays small-time or dies.

What is a reasonable depends on the level of optimization in your game. Otherwise you might as well not play the fights and just say "the players win".
Elminster is a classic example of a low-op wizard, because that's what the source material assumes. Everything in canon FR is badly optimized, so it's fine.

When you introduce a high-op player into that system you naturally have to optimize people who are supposed to be equally smart/tough/strong to the same standard, or you're breaking the narrative balance of your gameworld.
Not to mention that one curbstomp after another tends to bore most players pretty fast, so not only are you failing your job as a narrator, you're also failing as a DM in not providing challenging but possible encounters to your players.

[Efrate]

Energy immunity and someone who can counter a spell or two for the g. dispel that will be thrown. Or there is a weapon enhancement in DMG2 or one of the faerun books that counters a spell stored in it. Get armor spikes, and put dispel magic, greater dispel, and voracious dispel, and AMF in them. That means you keep your buffs up, though that means you cannot use AMF yourself, at least for a round. Teleport in and go to town. If you set yourself up to alpha strike and retreat you likely have a better chance, just set up away from there, and have readied actions. Beware celerity and wings of cover, but otherwise you should be able to chunk it, retreat, follow it with some divinations, and go from there. Do this several times and you should be fine. Just coordinate it,after the first time the dragon will be ready for it so expect something and have a response.

Also if it sees it cannot hurt you with its breath weapon, it might refrain from using it future encounters,which means in subsequent encounters you can wind wall instead of energy immunity to save yourself higher level slots if you keep using hit and run.

[Deophaun]

Equalling commoners to centuries-old dragons is completely senseless. A farmer doesn't spend his life making supernatural enemies and trying to survive them. He farms.
But a dragon is already starting in the big leagues simply by virtue of its race. There are no dragon commoners.
Dragons that aren't sufficiently skilled and prepared go the way of bad wizards. They die. They don't get to the Ancient age category. The same applies to everything and everyone that is going to engage in combat for a living.
Like Fighters. Or Warriors.

You are looking at the world from the PoV of someone who has all the options available to them, but since no one but the player characters have all the options available to them, your PoV is inappropriate for an NPC dragon, or a wizard, or a fighter, or a commoner. Elminster is good enough to make it to high level. Qataakhast is good enough to become a great wyrm brass dragon. It's your assumption about what it takes to be "in the big leagues" that is skewed because you, as a player, never actually have to know the nitty gritty of what it takes to master a spell or a feat or a class level. You see it abstracted as a number on a sheet or a selection on a chart and from that assume it's as easy as penciling it in for everyone else.

Yes, Elminster is badly optimized, because he is developed as a human being, not a game character. If you design your NPCs to be game characters, to counter what your players are doing, then you are indeed metagaming.

And no, you don't have to adjust the narrative balance of your gameworld even if your players are optimized beyond anything the NPCs are, because by virtue of you focusing on them, the PCs are a big deal. They're the narrative focus. They're allowed to be special. The only thing you are maybe hurting is your game balance. Again, goes back to the metagame, but it's completely consistent if the rest of the world goes on being the rest of the world.

Anyway, this is a derailment. Mea culpa.

[ViperMagnum357]

You have a Wizard, so a simple answer could be Suppress Breath Weapon, a 3rd level spell out of Draconomicon. You said resources should not be a problem, so the concerns are dispel, will save and SR; but it would shut down all its breath weapons for 1 minute/level. Range is close, so your objectives would be make a close range dimension step or the like to tag the dragon the first round of combat and force the spell through-base SR for true dragons is usually terrible for their hit dice, and you should be able to optimize the save DC to 50/50 or worse for the dragon through combos you can find in some other threads. The big problem is a targeted dispel to strip the effect-too bad no dweomerkeeper for easy supernatural spell, but there must be other ways to buff dispel.

[Zephonim]

You have a Wizard, so a simple answer could be Suppress Breath Weapon, a 3rd level spell out of Draconomicon. You said resources should not be a problem, so the concerns are dispel, will save and SR; but it would shut down all its breath weapons for 1 minute/level. Range is close, so your objectives would be make a close range dimension step or the like to tag the dragon the first round of combat and force the spell through-base SR for true dragons is usually terrible for their hit dice, and you should be able to optimize the save DC to 50/50 or worse for the dragon through combos you can find in some other threads. The big problem is a targeted dispel to strip the effect-too bad no dweomerkeeper for easy supernatural spell, but there must be other ways to buff dispel.

I forgot my banned schools are evoc, conjuration and enchantment. So no suppress breath weapon. Banned enchantment to get illusion mastery critical to my build.

Banned conjuration because plane shift and gate are banned along with teleport being risky.

Didnt ban necro because Sweet Sweet ennervate...

Oh right i just remembered i can use channeled lifetheft to make the dragon exhausted... that will really help

[Kelb_Panthera]

Yeah, this is probably literally the reason for the whole "total cover" thing? Hiding behind a shield to protect yourself from dragonfire is an iconic image.

A dragon does 20d10 fire damage - average 110. Fire damage is halved before hardness, so 55 - the standard (wooden) tower shield has harness 5, so 50 damage, and only 20hp so melts.

Getting a tower shield made out of steel (two inches, as per the hit points for the wooden one) gives you hardness 10 and 60hp - the shield survives with 15hp left, so won't survive a second blast.

Adamantine is expensive, but leads to hardness 20 and 80hp - the shield survives with 45hp left, which might be enough to survive a second blast. AnyDice puts 40d10/2-40 as having a 13.61% chance of getting through the shield, so while you might avoid two shots it's by no means guaranteed. IIRC destroying the cover means it hits whatever's behind it, so that can be nasty. (This also makes Aurorum not really worth it in this case - it's +2000gp over adamantine for the hardness and hit points of steel and a full-round action to repair it. If you need to repair it, you already got hit by the breath and you're spending a full round action not attacking the dragon.)

Each +1 enchantment gives +2 hardness and +10hp, which may or may not be worth the price point. A +1 adamantine tower shield costs 3030gp - 2030gp's worth of craft(armorsmithing) (base DC 14+separate DC20 300gp masterwork component), and then 1000gp's worth of Craft Magic Arms and Armor. So, what, one day for the latter and a year or so of smithing? I'd go with Fabricate, probably, or just see if you can just outright buy adamantine tower shields.
A +1 adamantine shield has a 0.43% chance of failing to the second blast - a +2 one so close to zero it's a two-decimal rounding error.


I'm sure there's some magic item or spell out there that let you handle heavy winds better, as well - maybe look into that? As well as the standard fire immunity, of course. There might not be something that handles tornado-class winds, but if there is it's a great find.
Although a tempest breath tornado is also just 1d4d4 nonlethal (1-16, average 6.25) and maybe 6d6 (av.21) damage if you get the whole DC30 funnel rigmarole? The instantaneous nature of the feat kind of takes the sting out of the worst of it.

Obdurium from the stronghold builder's guidebook. It's obscure and pricey but it's the strongest non-magical material in the game.

[Gemini476]

Obdurium from the stronghold builder's guidebook. It's obscure and pricey but it's the strongest non-magical material in the game.

Hardness 30, 60hp/inch (so 120hp) - it's taking 25 damage per breath, so given the massive bellcurves involved it'll survive four blasts.

However, it's also twice as expensive as adamantine and I'm not really sure that you need to survive more than two breaths? You're shilling out 4030gp (or 3730gp if the masterwork cost isn't doubled), compared to the 2030gp of the adamantine shields (or 3030gp of the +1 adamantine shields).

Might be worth it if you don't feel confident in your ability to defeat it in six rounds, though. (It's more like four, really, given that you're spending two cowering behind shields.)