Fiend of Possesion and Hellbred, viable?

[Jiruharudo]

Without further ado;

Would this work?

Fiend of Possession

Requirements
Race: Any outsider with the Evil subtype.
Base Save Bonuses: Will +5

Hellbred

Evil Exception (Ex): Regardless of alignment or class restrictions, a hellbred can cast spells with the evil descriptor and never gain negative levels while wielding evil magic items, such as unholy weapons or demon armor. This ability does not shield a hellbred from losing access to class features if he violates a class's code of conduct. For example, using a +1 unholy longsword to slay orcs would not violate a hellbred paladin's code of conduct, though using the weapon to kill another paladin would.

True, by RAW the Hellbred isnt a evil outsider. But he is "forged" out of his material plane and reborn. And his Racial states one can pick classes not limited to evil.

Now comes some flavor;

Gnome prankster gone to far
Instead of going to Garl, he goes to Hell. Never realizing his pranks wounded some folk, he wants to repent.
Garl being protective and joke-loving, approves if he uses his skills for good.

Hellbred form is gained and he loses most of his pas memories.

Offers good heroes to improve their weapons by possessing it, or using these powers to convert evil towards good.
He'll do anything in his power to help his fellow adventures, like a loyal sidekick to them all.

Tricks may include:

Telepathy while being a sword, showing people through the darkness
Possessing selfmade wooden dolls for slapstick and expendable combat prowess
Going first into the danger/scouting to help his fellow adventures stay safe.
Possessing transport like a carriage or transport to move peeps around.
Possessing an enemy armor and proceeding to punch the inhabitant with its own gauntlet. (Stop hitting yourself!)

Ideas? Thoughts?

[Vizzerdrix]

I dont see why it would work. Like you said, he isnt an outsider with the [evil] subtype, and that ability says nothing about entering prcs with it.

[Troacctid]

No. This does work in the rules at all, nor does it make sense in the story. Hellbred are emphatically not fiends. They are mortals who repented too late to escape the Nine Hells, but were given a second chance by higher powers and reincarnated to seek redemption.

[Jiruharudo]

Thanks for the fast replies!

But darn. I was hoping to avoid cheesery with weird outsiders..

"Regardless of alignment or class restrictions" gave me a spark of hope.

And while i totally agree they loathe fiends, they seem to have no issues with unholy armors or evil spells.

Maybe I was stretching it by using a fiend PrC to do good instead like a Malconvoker.

Any ideas how to make this work? The otherworldly feat seems a bit cheesy IMO

[Vizzerdrix]

I always use Diablous with the Divine Minion template for the earliest entry. Comes with LA (you will want to pick Sebek for the lowest LA), but hey, you get to turn into a croc at least.

[Troacctid]

Mulhorandi Divine Minion. http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20050209a

[Jiruharudo]

Divine minion, the ultimate trick!

Well, thanks for the suggestions though, -but I have no idea how to sell that to any DM who has heard of it. :P

[Vizzerdrix]

Divine minion, the ultimate trick!

Well, thanks for the suggestions though, -but I have no idea how to sell that to any DM who has heard of it. :P

That is the problem with the fiend classes. They arent simple to get into without either waiting far too long or jumpling through a bunch of hoops. Heck, they dont play well with most of the base classes either. Psionics maybe, but you loose a bunch of manifester levels. Ive seen arguments for Ardents, but Im speculative about that can of worms.

As for selling it to a DM, just be honest about it and straight forward. Tell them you really want to play a FoP, but you dont want to wait until high levels when most games petter out and that (or whatever other way you find) is the fastsest way to get there. Work WITH you DM on it and if push comes to shove maybe see if he will let you qualify some other way.

[Jiruharudo]

Good points Vizzerdrix

Can of worms are items I avoid indeed.

Thanks for all that :)

[flappeercraft]

Would not work as it is BUT you could use the Ritual of Alignment from Saavage Species to gain the Evil Subtype which costs 53k but would allow you to do this.

[Vizzerdrix]

Good points Vizzerdrix

Can of worms are items I avoid indeed.

Thanks for all that :)

Any time, and I hope you get to play one. They are indeed quite fun.


Would not work as it is BUT you could use the Ritual of Alignment from Saavage Species to gain the Evil Subtype which costs 53k but would allow you to do this.

Problem with that is the gold. I think wbl puts it at around 10th level and you will have to do a lot of convincing to get a dm to allow putting most of your starting wealth into one thing.

[Troacctid]

That is the problem with the fiend classes. They arent simple to get into without either waiting far too long or jumpling through a bunch of hoops. Heck, they dont play well with most of the base classes either. Psionics maybe, but you loose a bunch of manifester levels. Ive seen arguments for Ardents, but Im speculative about that can of worms.
I mean, they're very easy to get into, if you're an NPC.

[daremetoidareyo]

entropic (planar handbook) LA+2 changeling with racial emulation feat is an outsider that can mimic any subtype so long as we can find a humanoid with the evil subtype. (incarnate construct from a gloom golem)

[Thurbane]

Problem with that is the gold. I think wbl puts it at around 10th level and you will have to do a lot of convincing to get a dm to allow putting most of your starting wealth into one thing.

You know, I think I'll make up a character who founds a bank/credit union exactly for this kind of thing.

Greyhawk Cash AdvanceTM


"Need extra cash for early entry reqs? No problem!"
"Level up now, pay later!"
"Reasonable rates!"
"Come speak with one of our friendly customer service gnomes!"
"Our telepathic bond hotline is manned 24/7!"

[Crake]

Any time, and I hope you get to play one. They are indeed quite fun.



Problem with that is the gold. I think wbl puts it at around 10th level and you will have to do a lot of convincing to get a dm to allow putting most of your starting wealth into one thing.

I find the easiest way to achieve this is to get to extend+persist polymorph for a 48 hour duration, drain yourself of 6 levels, then gain them back with restoration. Only works if your type is outsider to begin with, but that can be easily solved by casting something like yochlol blessing first.

Since fiend of possession/whatever don't lose their class features if they fail to meet the pre-reqs at a later date, you retain all your abilities even when you go back to being a regular old joe. Kinda a nifty way to do it if you ask me, basically have to perform a little ritual each time you level up to gain your next level in the class. Or you can just get 6 levels ahead, and then do it all in one go by draining 6 levels then regaining them all, that works too.

[WhamBamSam]

entropic (planar handbook) LA+2 changeling with racial emulation feat is an outsider that can mimic any subtype so long as we can find a humanoid with the evil subtype. (incarnate construct from a gloom golem)The Otherworldly feat (using the Celestial-Attended Birth option in Champions of Valor or using a flaw to qualify via Racial Emulation at 1st level) or various PrCs could also be used to make a Changeling an Outsider without LA.

Vashar and Jerren, in their ongoing quest to not be good for anything, somehow don't have the Evil subtype. Emulating templated creatures feels sketchy to me, though Minor Shapechange seems not to have the usual restriction due to being based on Disguise Self.

[ShurikVch]

Just cast the Demonic Blood Infusion spell (Ghostwalk WE (http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/files/WE_Ghostwalk.zip)):
The subject gains the fiendish template and the chaotic and evil subtypes, and it becomes chaotic evil if it is not already. The creature counts as an outsider for the purpose of spells and effects that affect only certain creature types.

[Inevitability]

Just cast the Demonic Blood Infusion spell (Ghostwalk WE (http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/files/WE_Ghostwalk.zip)):

The spell lasts only a few hours per casting, has an expensive material component, is 6th-level, and can be stripped away with various low-level spells. Unless you've got a mid-level Dweomerkeeper with you at all times, it's a highly ineffective way to get the [Evil] subtype.

[ShurikVch]

The spell lasts only a few hours per casting, has an expensive material component, is 6th-level, and can be stripped away with various low-level spells. Unless you've got a mid-level Dweomerkeeper with you at all times, it's a highly ineffective way to get the [Evil] subtype.You need to qualify to a PrC only at the moment you entering a PrC

[Inevitability]

You need to qualify to a PrC only at the moment you entering a PrC

I guess you consider the CW/CA rule on this as only referring to those particular books, then?

[ShurikVch]

I guess you consider the CW/CA rule on this as only referring to those particular books, then?I consider that rule stupid, and wouldn't apply it even to the CW/CA PrCs
The "rule" in question is an obvious case of writer getting lazy and copypasting text from the DMG 3.0 without even checking it

[Inevitability]

I consider that rule stupid, and wouldn't apply it even to the CW/CA PrCs
The "rule" in question is an obvious case of writer getting lazy and copypasting text from the DMG 3.0 without even checking it

Then I suppose there's little chance of either of us convincing the other.

[ShurikVch]

Then I suppose there's little chance of either of us convincing the other.That rule caused "Schrödinger's PrC" phenomenon, and was revoked even before the 3.5
Tell me one good reason why it should be brought back

Also: neither Fiend of Possession, nor Hellbred are from CA/CW books :smalltongue:

[Caelestion]

Well, fairly obviously, it would avoid cheesy suggestions like your own.

[Crake]

Well, fairly obviously, it would avoid cheesy suggestions like your own.

But it also causes self disqualification in many cases, like dragon disciples becoming half dragons, which give them the dragon type, which causes them to lose their class features, which loses them the half dragon template, which loses them the dragon type which means they qualify again.... etc etc, or Ur-Priests, who cannot have divine casting.

Honestly, if you use the complete warrior ruling, woe be to anyone in your group that takes strength damage, because should your strength drop below 13, you lose power attack... and ANYTHING that comes with it..... And complete warrior doesn't say you get all your stuff back if you later re-qualify, so i guess you're just screwed, have fun with your high level warrior NPC class.

[Caelestion]

Well if it's so unimportant, why was it a restriction in the first place? (On the prestige class that is, not the splat book ruling.)

Besides, if you're going to take everything that literally, perhaps you're better off never taking prestige classes at all.