my D&D 3.5 altered classes (Core) Part 1 hopefully...

[Dieuoffire]

So I have recently been asked to do an old 3.5 D&D for some friends. The first thing I did was go back to some of my old Homebrew and take a look. I realized I want some other opinions on this stuff. So I am going to be posting some of my homebrew from 3.5 for PEACH.

Please note that this stuff originated long ago. Then pathfinder and the Tier Ratings came out and I added stuff from ideas I got there.

Originally my goal was to make some changes for classes that are lower tiers to place them at tier 2-3, Now I am just aiming for a high end tier 3. I know this has probably been done before but this is my homebrew and I am looking for some friendly opinions about what I have done and where these adjustments place the classes on the tier ratings. Please note that optimizing changes the placement of a class but the tier system was designed that the comparison was for equal optimization of each class.

PLEASE tell me what tier you think these changes make a class as is and what changes need to be made to put the class at tier 3.

Here are the core classes: these benefits are bonus, they add on, not replace unless stated to.

Barbarian – Tier 4
 5 Rage or bonus fighter feats: 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th, 20th
 Gains animal empathy and track at level 4. Used as a ranger of (class level-3)
 Improved DR: starting at 7th level. Barbarians gain DR of (class level/2)/–.
 Monsterous rage:
• At 10th level 1/day a raging barbarian may increase his size category by 1. The size change gains all size modifiers to abilities, AC, etc.
• This At 20th level for 1 full day every week when a barbarian rages they may turn into living stone, he becomes a very unique living construct. This affect has the following effects
o Low-light vision.
o Darkvision out to 60 feet.
o Immunity to all mind-affecting effects
o Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, stunning, disease, death effects, and necromancy effects.
o Not subject to critical hits, nonlethal damage, ability damage, ability drain, fatigue, exhaustion, or energy drain.
o Immunity to any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects, or is harmless).
o Not at risk of death from massive damage.
o does not eat, sleep, or breathe.
o Gains DR 20/Adamantine, but still keeps the original DR as well. DR does not stack; apply the best DR to any given attack.
o Natural armor gains +18 bonus (this stacks with current natural armor and is not considered a enhancement bonus)
o Size increases 1 category if the barbarian would like (must decide when they rage). The size change gains all size modifiers to abilities, AC, etc. (this does not stack with the level 10 ability
o Intimidating in this form grants a +10 bonus to intimidate.
o Weight increases by x4 or x16 if size increases



Bard – Tier 3
 5 Music or skill feats: 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th, 20th


Fighter – Tier 5
 Fighters gain a bonus feat at every level (9 more feats total). These extra nine feats are general feats. Usable anywhere.
 Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + lnt modifier) x 4. Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier. Add Balance, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, and Spot to class list
 A fighter receives two attacks of opportunity when an opponent provokes an Attack
 Fighters add ¼ class level to all attack and damage rolls with melee or ranged weapons. Fighters add 1/2 their class level to confirm a critical threat.
 A a fighter has learned how to help others in combat through good use of tactics and advise. A fighter may allow any ally that flanks an enemy with the fighter or who is within 5ft per 2/class levels (rounded up) to the fighter to use the fighters base attack bonus when attacking that creature as long as all attacks are targeted on that creature. This includes allowing multiple attacks. (whether the creature is immune to flanking or not.) so for example when a 4th level rogue and 20th level fighter flank a dragon. The Rogue attacks the dragon with a base attack bonus of 20/15/10/5. All other bonuses remain constant (so if the rouge was using weapon finesse and had a attack bonus of +5 from dex the first attack would be +25. This bonus never qualifies for feat, prestige classes or any other benefits besides the attack. This does not change the flanking partners base attack in any way it is temporarily using the fighters bonus. A fighter may advise one ally per level.



Monk – Tier 5
  5 unarmed or maneuver feats (expertise, trip, bull rush ,tactical etc.): 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th, 20th
 At 5th level monk strikes count as silver and cold Iron.
 +1 per 2 unarmed feats as a bonus bonus to all Bull Rush, disarm, grapple, sunder, and trip attacks
 Perfect self gives DR 10/Chaotic and magic
 A monk may make a flurry attack as a standard attack at the regular penalty or as a full round action for no penalty. The flurry can be part of a charge (similar to pounce ability)
 1/day Monks can meditate for an hour and thereafter for 1 hour they may add (class level) to any ability as an untyped bonus.


Paladin – Tier 5
 3 bonus holy feats 4th, 12th, 20th – Any feat that deals with or is :
• Exalted,
• Turning undead (improved turning, extra turning, etc.)
• Religious feats (Devotion feats dealing with alignment or domains of the god served, etc.)
• Paladin order feats (Sword of the arcane order, etc.)
• Laying on of hands feats (hands of a healer, etc.)
 Caster level is equal to class level
 At 5th level and 15th the Paladin receives a feat from the following list:
• Mounted Combat
• Mounted Archery
• Ride-By Attack
• Spirited Charge
• Trample
 As the warlords of Righteousness a paladin may 1/week grant total immunity to fear for all allies or followers within Class level*Character level*10 feet. As long as their alignment matches the paladins alignment in at least one aspect. Additionally all affected allies also gain a +2 moral bonus to attack and damage rolls.
 A paladins laying on of hands may be used to heal more than hit points
• At 4th level using two points may remove:
o Fatigued,
o Shaken ,
o Sickened,
o Dazed,
o Staggered,
• At 6th level spending ten points may remove:
o Disease (paladin no longer has remove disease ability 1/week but this ability counts as that one for all purposes, if a variant or alternate ability causes you to change remove disease entirely you lose this feature. If it causes you to loves only 1/week then subtract 10 points from your laying on of hands total) caster level = Class level for remove disease
• At 8th level two points of healing may be used to lessen:
o Exhausted (becomes fatigued),
o Frightened (becomes shaken),
o Nauseated (becomes Sickened),
• At 10th level five points may remove:
o Poisoned
o One ability point damage (Stackable)
• At 12th level eight points may remove:
o Blindness
o Deafness
o Paralysis
o Stunned
• At 14th level for 100 points (only usable 1/week)
 If a paladin does not have enough points total in his pool he may encounter a debt to use this ability of 10X the number of points lacking. These points must be paid off ASAP after the debt has been occurred, draining all points possible until the debt has been fulfilled, every day. So if 20 points are unable to be paid, 200 points will be deducted ofer the following days
o Resurrection (this has NO material costs)
• At 17th level for 200 points
 If a paladin does not have enough points total in his pool he may encounter a debt to use this ability of 10X the number of points lacking. These points must be paid off ASAP after the debt has been occurred, draining all points possible until the debt has been fulfilled, every day. So if 20 points are unable to be paid, 200 points will be deducted ofer the following days
o True Resurrection (this has NO material or XP costs, yes read it and weep clerics)
• Multiple points may be spent in the same action to cure multiple conditions and multiple levels of conditions (16 points may be spent all at once to remove exhausted, the fatigued condition that follows, the sickened condition, and mummy rot all at once)


Ranger – Tier 4
 Combat style paths: Rangers do not need to choose; Rangers gain an additional two handed feat and an additional archery feat at level 16 and 20th level.
 Caster level is Ranger level
 At 10th level rangers may awaken their animal companion as per the awaken spell; the animal stops being animal companion. The ranger makes a handle animal roll instead of will save to use this ability same difficulty. Attitude starts as helpful. This takes 1 week of training and has no XP cost.
 Animal Companion benefits change to: Ranger level = effective Druid level. A ranger who is within level*10 feet of his animal companion also grants his animal companion a moral bonus of ½ class level on attacks and damage. At 20th level the ranger may grant 1d8 temporary hit points per level and the effect of a haste spell for up to 10 min per day. The time need not be consecutive is used in 1 min intervals and takes a move equivalent action to activate. The temporary hit points are for the full 10 minutes. Damage to the hit points carries throughout. Using a full minute worth of the duration and another action to re-invoke does reset the amount of temporary hit points.



Rogue – Tier 4
 (m) 3 Bonus Feats: 6th, 12th, and 18th. Additionally Rogue special abilities are gained every two levels not every three.
 A rogue now uses 1/4th of sneak attack dice (rounded up) against creatures that are immune to sneak attack, for any reason. (This stacks if using penetrating strike for ¾ damage. However this ability will never allow sneak attack damage to go over 100% of sneak attack damage)
 Rogues gain an additional +(1/2 class level) to avoid or save against any scrying or detection spell. They may drop this bonus at any time as a free action. Alternately rogues may apply half of this bonus (1/4 class level) to all allies within Class level *10 feet. This is an untyped stackable, bonus.
 Starting at 2nd level, a rogue learns how to use his abilities in unorthodox ways. He may use his Dex-mod instead of his Str-mod for all Str based Class Skills, and may use his Int-mod instead of his Wis-mod for all Wis based Class Skills.
 Understanding of speed:
• At 6th level the rogue begins to understand speed, a foe struck by sneak attack is slowed for 1 round, this is not stackable (Reflex save DC 10+1/2 rogue level + Dex modifier) this is a (Ex) ability.
• At 12th level a rogue who slows any opponent gains haste for the following round. Alternatively a rogue who uses sneak attack may make a touch attack and forgo all damage dealt and Slow that individual to the point of them being unaware. The victim is essentially affected by a reversed time stop, this lasts for 1d4+1 rounds. This is called attacking time. This is a (Su) ability
• At 18th level a rogue who attacks time may gain the benefits of the lost time. They immediately gain the benefits of a time stop spell and their opponent loses the time. So upon a successful attack the rogue instantly gains the benefits of time stop after the benefit ends their opponent is still frozen for the same number of rounds the rogue gain in time stop. This is a (Su) ability
• At 20th level a rogue may steal time from time itself 1/day. The rogue may benefit from a maximized Time Stop 1/day. This is a (Su) ability


Sorcerer – Tier 2
 When a sorcerer selects /obtains a heritage feat they receive and additional Heritage/familiar feat at the same time. Heritage feats are weak but provide flavor and doubling the feats still
takes one of the sorcerers' limited feats.


for easy reference
Tier 3 is: Can be game breaking only with specific intent to do so.

I am ware of what making everyone tier 3 or higher does to a game. that is the intent. I want to be able to have a party of Fighter, (non-optimized) wizard, rogue, (non-optimized) cleric and have nobody completely left behind.
BTW: I change this opening post regularly with updates.

[Bogwoppit]

It looks like you're making the (mainly sound) assumption that at 1st to about 3rd level, the core classes are pretty balanced by the RAW - but that doesn't work for everyone. I'm looking at this monks, in particular.

What you've done for them seems pretty good, but it doesn't address the big issue with monks: they're meant to be mobile, and fast hitting - but the two styles don't mix.
There are plenty of suggested fixes for this. The one I like is that Flurry of blows applies no penalty when used as a Full round action, or the listed penalty when used as a standard action.
Your mileage may vary.

[Dieuoffire]

if I added flurry of blows as a standard action at about say level 10 instead of a feat at 8th and 12th, what tier do you think that would make the monk?

[Kamai]

I don't think you've pushed the Fighter, Barbarian, or Rogue out of T4. My understanding of T3 is that there are few situations that a T3 cannot make a meaningful contribution to, although they still have one area where they truly shine. The fighter adds a couple of skill points, but still doesn't truly get good enough to even handle most combats.

The fighter gets more feats, but I'm not convinced that it lets him really use other styles well, nor does it really address that at some point, you're possibly picking up feats for low level characters at high level as your class features.

The Barbarian gets slightly tougher, and may get a couple of things out of rage, but again, where does he contribute when the solution isn't charge->kill?

The rogue has to hold tight until level 20 to not get hosed on sneak attack. By then, either they already have a reliable solution, or they've spent the last 10 levels crying. If you gave them Darkstalker as a class feature as well as the scry resistance, I think they'll be good enough at what they do to be better than a "Master of None".

With Paladin, I would consider starting with Pathfinder's Paladin. If that Chassis got the tricks available in 3.5, I think it would have T3 builds on it's own.

Even with flurry as a standard action, I think it'll just put the monk at competent (T4). Monks have a couple of unreliable answers to "What if the solution isn't charge -> kill", but not enough to sit near a swordsage.

[Dieuoffire]

Thank you for your feedback. Maybe I need to target tier 2? then when I am a bit short they will be tier 3.

for these changes I was hoping that without having to spend regular feats on combat things the characters could use them on other things, therefore be decent in many situations; but you are right, they need more combat before they can do that and a few feats will not let them do as much as i thought. I guess I am used to hearing players say "Agrhhh! I need one More FEAT!" Ok how about this

I do not want the barbarian to lose the wilderness/ savage/ uneducated feel and adding skills seems to make him... educated. What about allowing the bonus feats to be fighter feats or rage feats? and adding Track and Animal empathy (Ranger level -3). Since the ranger has other improvements i don't think the ranger will feel like he has lost out because someone else can do something he does. (the druid already can).

for the Fighter what if I add some skills to the class list in addition to points? I think balance, diplomacy, gather information, and Hide/Move silent added to their class list would make them useful in lots of places. Additionally the Fighter adds +1 Damage to all attacks per 4 fighter levels? the damage is of the same type as the weapon they wield.

The paladin I did look at PF. this paladin has every mercy option from PF without having to choose just one. In exchange for every mercy they cost points to use. Additionally Paladins can Res and True Res without cost. That is well beyond any PF paladin. The only things this is missing is: banishing on smite and DR (10/evil). Personally I would take my options because even though they cost points you get ALL the options and True res is super powerful as a standard action with no gp cost or xp cost.

Monks need more? I have some experience with marital arts and meditation is often used. What if in meditation they could expound their mental boundaries? Here is an idea. 1/day Monks can meditate for an hour and thereafter for 1 hour they may add (class level) to any ability as an untyped bonus. Amazing at anything for an hour; this lives in legend as martial artists who after meditation can suddenly pick up boulders or understand the hidden truth behind all things. Gained at level 1, scales all the way up. one hour with +20 to an ability is enough to give any level 20 character a pause. I will also add the option to flurry with a move as a full round action using standard penalty or without a move for no penalty.

Rogue: added feats allow you to get stuff like Darkstalker on your own. However if everyone should be getting it as a feat maybe it should be a class feature. So add Darkstalker at level 10? I think the 1/4 sneak attack means his combat is now decent, and the rogue has proven useful in other areas. BTW Darkstalker you can get as a feat so adding another feat you think would do it?

I was hoping to make fewer more powerful changes But I can see I have not done nearly enough.

[nonsi]

Thank you for your feedback. Maybe I need to target tier 2? then when I am a bit short they will be tier 3.

for these changes I was hoping that without having to spend regular feats on combat things the characters could use them on other things, therefore be decent in many situations; but you are right, they need more combat before they can do that and a few feats will not let them do as much as i thought. I guess I am used to hearing players say "Agrhhh! I need one More FEAT!" Ok how about this

I do not want the barbarian to lose the wilderness/ savage/ uneducated feel and adding skills seems to make him... educated. What about allowing the bonus feats to be fighter feats or rage feats? and adding Track and Animal empathy (Ranger level -3). Since the ranger has other improvements i don't think the ranger will feel like he has lost out because someone else can do something he does. (the druid already can).

for the Fighter what if I add some skills to the class list in addition to points? I think balance, diplomacy, gather information, and Hide/Move silent added to their class list would make them useful in lots of places. Additionally the Fighter adds +1 Damage to all attacks per 4 fighter levels? the damage is of the same type as the weapon they wield.

The paladin I did look at PF. this paladin has every mercy option from PF without having to choose just one. In exchange for every mercy they cost points to use. Additionally Paladins can Res and True Res without cost. That is well beyond any PF paladin. The only things this is missing is: banishing on smite and DR (10/evil). Personally I would take my options because even though they cost points you get ALL the options and True res is super powerful as a standard action with no gp cost or xp cost.

Monks need more? I have some experience with marital arts and meditation is often used. What if in meditation they could expound their mental boundaries? Here is an idea. 1/day Monks can meditate for an hour and thereafter for 1 hour they may add (class level) to any ability as an untyped bonus. Amazing at anything for an hour; this lives in legend as martial artists who after meditation can suddenly pick up boulders or understand the hidden truth behind all things. Gained at level 1, scales all the way up. one hour with +20 to an ability is enough to give any level 20 character a pause. I will also add the option to flurry with a move as a full round action using standard penalty or without a move for no penalty.

Rogue: added feats allow you to get stuff like Darkstalker on your own. However if everyone should be getting it as a feat maybe it should be a class feature. So add Darkstalker at level 10? I think the 1/4 sneak attack means his combat is now decent, and the rogue has proven useful in other areas. BTW Darkstalker you can get as a feat so adding another feat you think would do it?

I was hoping to make fewer more powerful changes But I can see I have not done nearly enough.

For the Fighter fix, you should follow this post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21571504&postcount=8) (and inner links). Mainly for insights, but take whatever you find useful.
Also, you might find my Rogue (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18777412&postcount=12) and Monk (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18777454&postcount=21) useful sources to draw from.

[Grod_The_Giant]

My goal is to make some changes for classes that are lower tiers to place them at tier 2-3.
Fair warning: You're not going to hit T2 without either 9th level spells, or some entirely new system of equivalent power and scope. It's just... not going to happen.


Barbarian – Tier 4
 5 Rage feats: 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th, 20th
 Improved DR: starting at 7th level. Barbarians gain DR of ((class level/3) +1)/–. replaces standard DR
No tier change. You've made them somewhat better at wrecking face, but Barbarians were already fine at wrecking face.


Bard – Tier 3
 5 Music or skill feats: 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th, 20th
No tier change, but you did give a substantial and unnecessary boost to what's probably the strongest T3 class out there, depending on how you classify Beguilers and Dread Necros. If you want to give them a minor boost, I suggest bumping up their Inspire Courage progression while removing bonuses like Inspirational Boost and Words of Creation; that simplifies them without really increasing power.


Fighter – Tier 5
 Fighters gain a bonus feat at every level replaces current feat gain
 Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + lnt modifier) x 4. Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier.
 Fighters add 1/2 their class level to confirm a critical threat.
I would argue that the Fighter was already Tier 4, but this plants them firmly in it. I'm assuming the feats are Fighter bonus feats only? The story has some potential to change if they're wide-open and you can grab things like Shape Soulmeld and Martial Stance, though I don't think even that will get you into T3.


Monk – Tier 5
 5 unarmed feats: 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th, 20th
 At 5th level monk strikes count as silver and cold Iron.
 +1 per 2 unarmed feats as a bonus bonus to all Bull Rush, disarm, grapple, sunder, and trip attacks
 Perfect self gives DR 10/Chaotic and magic
No change. Feats were not the Monk's problem; MAD and contradictory class features were.


Paladin – Tier 5
 3 bonus holy feats 4th, 12th, 20th – Any feat that deals with or is :
Exalted,
Turning undead (improved turning, extra turning, etc.)
Religious feats (Devotion feats dealing with alignment or domains of the god served, etc.)
Paladin order feats (Sword of the arcane order, etc.)
Laying on of hands feats (hands of a healer, etc.)
 A paladins laying on of hands may be used to heal more than hit points
Well, you take Sword of the Arcane Order at 4th and then you're... certainly T4, but you don't have many spells per day and your MADness is potentially even worse than before.=


Ranger – Tier 4
 Combat style paths: Rangers do not need to choose; Rangers gain an additional two handed feat and an additional archery feat at level 16 and 20th level.
 Caster level is Ranger level -3
 Animal Companion benefits change to: Ranger level – 3 = effective Druid level
Mmmm... maaaybe Tier 3, but I don't think so-- the Animal Companion is still pretty mediocre without shared buffs, you don't have many spells per day, and you're still kind of stuck with bad combat styles.



Rogue – Tier 4
 2 Bonus Feats: 7th, and 15th. general feats
 Rogue special abilities are gained every two levels not every three. These are powerful abilities at least equal to a feat (because you can get one)
 At 20th level 1/4th of any sneak attack damage is applied to creatures that are immune to it, for any reason. (This stacks if using penetrating strike for ¾ damage, but this ability will never
allow sneak attack damage to go over 100% of sneak attack damage; for situation like gravestrike etc.)
 Rogues gain an additional +(1/2 class level) to avoid or save against any scrying or detection spell. They may drop this bonus at any time as a free action. Alternately rogues may apply half
of this bonus (1/4 class level) to all allies within Class level *10 feet. This is an untyped stackable, bonus.
Still Tier 4; you haven't meaningfully done anything to keep Sneak Attack from being shut down, and unboosted skills still aren't that good, methinks.


Sorcerer – Tier 2
 When a sorcerer selects /obtains a heritage feat they receive and additional Heritage/familiar feat at the same time. Heritage feats are weak but provide flavor and doubling the feats still
takes one of the sorcerers' limited feats.
A fine change. Maybe even grant a (pair of) heritage feats at 1st instead of the familiar.

[Dieuoffire]

OK, I updated the OP with several things that were mentioned previously. barbarian gets wild empathy and track and gets fighter bonus feat options, bard adds one less feat, fighter gets some skills, monk gets meditation and flurry as a standard attack (can now charge or move with full flurry), ranger got animal companion as a druid, Rogues gain skillful intuition, I am thinking about more... Maybe a special rouge ability to bypass SA immunity 50% of the time as a high level ability? Stackable, taking twice allows full SA damage??

Let me know what you think people. Again thank you all for your help. I know others have done this before but I am trying it my own way, thanks for understanding.

[Mendicant]

It's going to be very hard to get any non-casters to the same weight class as a Sorcerer without pretty radical changes, but you can nudge them up in playability by expanding their areas of competence. The fighter, for instance, gets good utility and fun factor in early levels out of more skills and a bigger skill list, so that's a really useful change. Fighters have a lot less trouble doing damage though, so I don't think the other additions do much for them.

A vanilla, mid-op Bard has social abilities, buffing, a variety of skills, and spell casting. A Fighter basically has damage, and there are plenty of others who can do similar or better damage. The approach you're taking with the expanded skills or the Rogue's shareable nondetection bonus is a better angle, I think. A fighter with some kind of tactical leadership class feature that allows him to share his plethora of feats or that grants allies competence bonuses to reflex saves, initiative and critical confirmations actually expands the fighter's area of competence and makes his teammates happy he's there even if his preferred combat schtick isn't working for that encounter.

[Dieuoffire]

Ok, so 9th level spells is about the benchmark for tier 2-3?

I have added an ability to each class that is based off of a 9th level spell but with some improvements. This should be game changing.

[Mendicant]

Well, tier 2, not 3, and it's more about full casting *up* to 9. A t-2/t-1 at any given level has access to a powerful toolbox of spells or powers that are level-appropriate.


Maximized time-stop as a capstone ability for a rogue is pretty cool though.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Ok, so 9th level spells is about the benchmark for tier 2-3?

I have added an ability to each class that is based off of a 9th level spell but with some improvements. This should be game changing.
Ehhh... not so much-- capstones are fun to think about, but they tend to mean bupkiss to the game as actually played. A hypothetical class that's a Commoner for 19 levels, then gets Shapechange, Miracle, and Time Stop at 20th isn't going to be Tier 2; they're going to T6-and-useless for 19 levels and broken at 20th. Abilities only matter if they come online during the parts of the game you're playing at. Which obviously depends on the table, but tends to be in the ~3rd to 12th range.

The Sorcerer isn't Tier 2 because they get Wish at 18th level; they're T2 because they get Color Spray at 1st level, Alter Self at 4th level, Fly at 6th level, Polymorph at 8th level, and so on, all the way up to Wish at 18th. Their spells give them the ability to dominate the game throughout.

[Dieuoffire]

So, make fighter 20th level ability standard throughout but only works for fighter levels? Something like

"a fighter may give a partner flanker a base attack bonus equal to his fighter class levels"

Change Rpgue to get time stop at say 15th level and maximize it 20th? Also I will make it so that it is not the ninth level spell but an ability that mimics the ninth level spell.

[Grod_The_Giant]

So, make fighter 20th level ability standard throughout but only works for fighter levels? Something like

"a fighter may give a partner flanker a base attack bonus equal to his fighter class levels"

Change Rpgue to get time stop at say 15th level and maximize it 20th? Also I will make it so that it is not the ninth level spell but an ability that mimics the ninth level spell.
Better, sure. Still not good enough. Especially the Fighter's, which is just... kind of sad; medium BAB is usually plenty good enough for hitting, while your last iterative usually won't hit anyway.

Don't feel bad. It's really hard to boost most low-tier classes without significant rewrites. Some can be done quickly (Warlocks do 1d6/level with their blast and get more invocations known; boom), other classes leave you with so little to work with that you sort of wind up starting from scratch.

I wouldn't even try for Tier 2, either. The difference between a Tier 2 class and a Tier 3 one is that the Tier 2 one can pick spells to break the game-- but they probably won't, because most players are good people and don't want to break things too much. Do you really want to just hand stuff like Planar Binding out like candy?

[Dieuoffire]

The fighter bonus does not add a +5 attack. A medium base attack bonus get you a +15, +10 and a +5. adding the extra attack bonus you have a +20, +15, +10 and a +5 meaning that you gained an attack not at +5 but one at +20. That is a significant attack.

I also think that the fighter can help just just flanking partner but any ally beside him as well. This allows him to pair nicely with summons and other allies.

I am starting to see how much power it takes to be a tier 2 or I'm being reminded of it. Maybe tier 3 is a better goal.

[nonsi]

The fighter bonus does not add a +5 attack. A medium base attack bonus get you a +15, +10 and a +5. adding the extra attack bonus you have a +20, +15, +10 and a +5 meaning that you gained an attack not at +5 but one at +20. That is a significant attack.

I also think that the fighter can help just just flanking partner but any ally beside him as well. This allows him to pair nicely with summons and other allies.


Before fixing something, you first have to know in what manner it is broken.

3e Fighter suffers from 3 major symptoms:
1. Fighter bonus feats are all low-level tools (8th at best). A handful of ACFs based on feat swapping (e.g. Overpowering Attack from PHB-II) are worth mentioning as mid-level tools. Not much to do here (since FBFs are meant to mimic actual real life combat maneuvers) except write new ones that would probably mimic ToB maneuvers/stances.
2. Mobility: While other classes gain increased speed, flight, teleportation or plain old UMD, Mr. Fighter continues running about on the ground just as he did at level 1! He can't chase an enemy he can handle and he can't runaway from an enemy he can't handle. Several environment changing spells (walls, pits, tentacles, earthquakes etc.) can render a fighter as good as helpless.
3. Action Economy: With Quicken Spell, Repeat Spell, Split Ray feats, as well as some inherently swift/immediate spells... and then some with the Celerity line, a fighter just doesn't stand a chance vs. a properly designed fullcaster.


So yes, combat bonuses are sure nice to have, but they're in no way the main issue.

[Dieuoffire]

I must admit that the fighter lack of mobility I usually overlook because almost every fighter my group plays gets a way to move him around. I just assumed that was standard; but that is not part of the class.

However tiers are about more than just your ability to handle something alone. Similar to the bard, enhancing others can be a significant benefit.

1. the added feats are now general feats meaning getting higher level ability feats are a reasonable assumption.

2. Mobility is a challenge for me as I am trying to keep as little magic as possible in the class. this might be a good reason why he will never be tier 2.

3. Adding attacks to others might be a significant source of action economy. specifically if the fighter is paired with a summoner, 20 creatures getting an extra attack each round adds up. I am also thinking what if a fighter could better exploit the combat weaknesses of others perhaps gaining two attacks of opportunity whenever someone else provokes an attack on the fighter? between the two abilities would that make a significant difference?

I am not arguing that you have no ground in point 1 and 3 but I believe that the changes would help in significant ways.

Again I am updating the OP. and thanks everyone for input.

[Dieuoffire]

So I have some feedback on most of the classes, but the paladin has not been touched. Any feedback on the paladin?

And after changing the capstone to building up throughout the levels do these classes look about tier 3?

[nonsi]

2. Mobility is a challenge for me as I am trying to keep as little magic as possible in the class. this might be a good reason why he will never be tier 2.


Give your Fighter special swift/immediate actions, such as parry.
Allow your Fighter to make full attack as a standard action.
Allow your Fighter to execute combat maneuvers with lower action costs.
Grant your Fighter additional actions during his turn.

That kind of stuff.

[Dieuoffire]

So I noticed that both the monk and fighter seem to have the same mobility problem, and as I think about it so do many of the other non-casting classes. Instead of fixing every one of them I have an idea that may work.

o Feat: Mobile Striker
 bonus feat option for a monk or fighter,
 if usable only during rage as a barbarian Rage feat (Rage Striker?) as well.
 Prerequisite: BAB +10
 When making a full attack this feat allows a character to exchange one of their attacks (their choice) to take a standard move as part of that full found attack.
 Special: this feat may be taken twice, allowing a character to make a charge and then attack with (full attack-2) attacks. so a duel wielder with six attacks may lose their worst two attacks and still take four attacks on a charge.


I think this will allow any character who depends on the full attack option to benefit. At the same time full casters will have the option but it will cost them a feat (which for full casters are scarce). it is fair for everyone and make a list of modifications disappear.

Thoughts?

[Dieuoffire]

For anyone interested I have some friends who are going to try these changes, I will post how it goes. We are going to attempt Age of Worms with a fighter, monk, paladin, rogue group. I think it will be a good test of tier 3 capabilities... Or we will die horribly if the changes are not enough

[nonsi]

So I noticed that both the monk and fighter seem to have the same mobility problem, and as I think about it so do many of the other non-casting classes. Instead of fixing every one of them I have an idea that may work.

o Feat: Mobile Striker
 bonus feat option for a monk or fighter,
 if usable only during rage as a barbarian Rage feat (Rage Striker?) as well.
 Prerequisite: BAB +10
 When making a full attack this feat allows a character to exchange one of their attacks (their choice) to take a standard move as part of that full found attack.
 Special: this feat may be taken twice, allowing a character to make a charge and then attack with (full attack-2) attacks. so a duel wielder with six attacks may lose their worst two attacks and still take four attacks on a charge.


I think this will allow any character who depends on the full attack option to benefit. At the same time full casters will have the option but it will cost them a feat (which for full casters are scarce). it is fair for everyone and make a list of modifications disappear.

Thoughts?

If you feel they all need it, make it how the game works, not a feat. And why not just allow full attack as a standard action and be done with?

[Dieuoffire]

I don't allow it with all character because I feel it should take extra training. there are some Sorcaladins, etc. who do not need another free bonus.

[Dieuoffire]

Update!

The character classes are doing better than they would have otherwise, but I am sure that they are all not tier 3 (Ftr, Mnk, Pal, Rog). They lack a flexibility that is hard to get without spells.

The fighter is still a little feeling left out in non-direct combat (we tried being sneaky once), even with Hide/Move Silently as a class skill. His armor gets in the way. This may improve when he gets mithril but, it is hard pre-mithril to do a straight fighter and have him do anything but fight.

the monk meditation ability is a favorite but needs to be a little stronger. since this ability is not meant to be beat at 3rd character level by a 2nd level spell (bulls strength etc. can add +4). I am thinking of adding an additional +1 at 1st, +2 at 5th, +3 at 10th, +4 at 15th and +5 at 20th.

I am trying to get tier 3 without a full rewrite, few simple but powerful changes are what I am looking for. Any more suggestions?

[nonsi]

I don't allow it with all character because I feel it should take extra training. there are some Sorcaladins, etc. who do not need another free bonus.

At the very least, give fighters Listen and Spot as class skills (guard duties, duh), as well as Sense Motive (so that they'd not be easily duped by Feint).

[nonsi]

Update!

The character classes are doing better than they would have otherwise, but I am sure that they are all not tier 3 (Ftr, Mnk, Pal, Rog). They lack a flexibility that is hard to get without spells.

The fighter is still a little feeling left out in non-direct combat (we tried being sneaky once), even with Hide/Move Silently as a class skill. His armor gets in the way. This may improve when he gets mithril but, it is hard pre-mithril to do a straight fighter and have him do anything but fight.

the monk meditation ability is a favorite but needs to be a little stronger. since this ability is not meant to be beat at 3rd character level by a 2nd level spell (bulls strength etc. can add +4). I am thinking of adding an additional +1 at 1st, +2 at 5th, +3 at 10th, +4 at 15th and +5 at 20th.

I am trying to get tier 3 without a full rewrite, few simple but powerful changes are what I am looking for. Any more suggestions?

Hide/Move Silently is nice for the "Commando" archetype, and Chainshirt is not all that bad for a sneaky fighter. I'm sure that with some crafting tweaks you could arrange more expensive armor variants with lowered ACP.

To come anywhere near T3, w/o some serious class rewrites, you'd have to give both of them Swift/Immediate action options and the ability to stretch the boundaries of physics a bit at mid-high levels.

[Dieuoffire]

the added skills are a yes for sure, Fighters can justify that.

The immediate and swift actions I don't know about. Not that those actions would not add power but when we were play testing the lack of versatility is what we noticed the most. I am wondering how to make the fighter better without breaking the feel of the fighter.

I am wondering about something like a leadership bonus (not to cohorts). for example the fighter can attract 5x the number of 1st-xth followers with leadership feat and they attract followers (not cohorts) even without leadership but only the regular amount (and no extra cohorts). With their bonus to others maybe they appeal to followers more, or maybe people follows those they can understand easier (and don't make them feel like blades of grass compared to GOD-Wizard). it might make a difference when every fighter has followers.

Any thoughts?

[Dieuoffire]

Ok I still need more but I am having trouble fixing things. It has been suggested, elsewhere, to do a point buy modification to the characters. the problem is with multi-classing as always. So on another board I found ability score modification by average class rounded down (ftr 1/sor 3 give tier 2 mods, ftr 2/sor 2 give tier 4 mods) so every 4 levels, when the characters receive their normal inherent ability bonuses they receive an additional bonus dependent upon their tier average tier. I am thinking:

Tier 1: 0 (level 20: +0 total)
Tier 2: 0 (level 20: +0 total)
Tier 3: 1 (level 20: +5 total)
Tier 4; 2 (level 20: +10 total)
Tier 5; 3 (level 20: +15 total)
Tier 6: 4 (level 20: +20 total)


Please notes this bonus is spent like point buy to the original ability scores. So if the character started with an 17 charisma and was a sorcerer they would not be able to raise it again with these points unless they somehow got the 3 point bonus, perhaps as multi-classing for two fighter levels. This throws a huge bonus to the lower tiers.

Applied with the other modifications does this make most classes hit around tier 3?

[Dieuoffire]

A friend just pointed out that these changes I am making to the classes change the tiers already so i would need to re-tier or apply the adjustment per class.