Advices for optimizing a low level character and beating the adventure Forge of fury?

[Amlugil]

Hello guys!
I'd really need some help. I know I'm not playing well my part because I should play WITH the others and beat the monster with everybody's help, but let me tell you the story.
Let's start saying that I'm almost new to the game, I've played (15 years ago?) the red edition, so I'm totally new to the 3.5, I'm trying to recover something, reading and studying all that I can, but it's truly hard since I'd need too much time to experiment and find the right "exploit" to get the best of everything.
Our Master is an experienced one, but, like me, he's quite new with the 3.5 edition, this means that he doesn't know a lot of rules and, if he feels like it, he doesn't feel the need to apply them (ie. our thief never had the occasion to use his sneak attack. Just two time with a ranged attack. Seriously.)
We, barely, survived the adventure "The sunless citadel", we were a group of 4 adventurer, one of us had to re-roll the pg (died in battle), and we reached, after the last fight, the 3 level (apart from the "new" character, that had to start from the first level).
I've read of many people getting into the 4° or 5° level at the end of this... but I think it's quite normal, the DM just present us the story and encounters as they are written on the book, so he doesn't apply any modifier, the adventure is studied for D&D 3 and not D&D 3.5 so we are fighting something bigger than us, and we get paid lesser than we should.
But that's fine (no, it's not).
Our group.
Me, a Paladin (2)/Crusader (1)
Jozhan ,a useless, for now, Mage (3)
Alaerielle, a dwarf cleric (2)
Jobert, halfling rogue (3)
Just yesterday we started this adventure, I talked about it with a friend and he recognized the bridge we had to cross like the one in the forge of fury. He told me the we... well, we are going to day.
Dragon? Roper? Succubus? Mh... and I thought that the encounter with the damned little dragon in the previous adventure was too hard for a first level party...
So, at the moment we are stuck at the bridge, the orcs have kidnapped our little friend thief, I guess he will die and have to re-roll the character.
My greatest problems are that
1)We suck at team-play (I remember a particular situation where we were in great danger and suspended the session because it was too late, I had all the week to elaborate a strategy... and consulting with a friend in the party we were able to put up a reasonable plan to escape and, eventually, win. Every member of the party had to do the right move in the right time & place. We communicated and all agreed. Then, the day of the battle, the first move was on the XXXXX that just "Well... mh... well... I escape, I run away." Divine Justice caught him, since he caused an AOO and died.
2)We are not strong enough, I try to study as hard as possible, but to really understand I'd have to experiment... and I don't have enough time, my "collegues" don't even try.
3)We really are going to die, and I don't want to reroll my character :(, I was so lucky on the roll that it would be almost impossible to do the same or better.

Here he is (system used 4d6, dropping the lowest, no position changing or else)
Str: 17
Dex: 14
Cos: 15
Int: 10 (not stupid.. but smart neither)
Sag: 17
Car: 17

Now, apart from the "trying to talk with the DM about his conduct" part, what would you do with him? For BG reason I don't want to drop his good alignment. I need every possible mean to maximize the impact of his high points in his abilities and feats, at the moment we're not allowed going beyond the PHB, PHB2 and the Tome of Battle, but I guess that would be enough, or I hope so.
Other problem, what would you suggest for our rogue? He is somewhat frustrated from the previous experience so if he's going to re-roll... he will build a pure damage dealer. some suggestion about that and about the adventure in general? I know I can find it easily, but I really don't want to spoil it more than already my friend did mentioning all these gems.
Damn, we're gonna die.

Thank you, friends.

R.

[ATHATH]

Are Dragons, Demons, and Ropers confirmed to be in the adventure? What do you know about it so far?

What spells and feats does the Wizard have? What about the Cleric?

Your best bet is probably diplomacy, provided that the DM isn't too stringent on your code.

Are you allowed to retroactively take ACFs?

[Amlugil]

Hello Athath! Thank you for your attention and your reply, I really appreciate it.
I trust this friend so yes, the presence is confirmed (had to ask again just in case he was just joking... no, he wasn't, though he said we will not have to kill the succubus).
Until this day the Wizard used the magic armor, magic missile, colored spry, detect magic.. and other useless spells.
The Cleric doesn't go much farther, he's all about cure light wounds and... yeah, create water (good align.)

Yeah, about diplomacy.
Imagine this, we were confronting two orcs before a bridge. Total darkness, the two orcs hidden behind two gian rocks, but our zone was lit by two braziers.
We took a lot of arrow from these creature while trying to create a strategy, the rogue tried to pass the bridge... then one of the orc cut a rope, luckily the rogue was able to jump on the other side (foolishly) before the other one was cut.
All alone.
So the DM was like...
"Yeah, they take you with their strong arms"
(no ability check allowed, nothing)
The two orcs yelled to us "Retreat or we will throw your friend on the chasm!"
So, since I have high diplomacy skill and good charisma, declared to try to negotiate...
"Ok! We're going! but let him join us again, please!"
Reply
"You're not in condition of asking anything, we're going to throw him down!!!"
(no roll check allowed)
"ok, ok, we're going!!!"
and we don't know what it will happen now.

Or...well... yeah, that thing.

Are Dragons, Demons, and Ropers confirmed to be in the adventure? What do you know about it so far?

What spells and feats does the Wizard have? What about the Cleric?

Your best bet is probably diplomacy, provided that the DM isn't too stringent on your code.

Are you allowed to retroactively take ACFs?

[Amlugil]

PS: I don't know at the moment about ACFs, but if it's worth I'll ask, without doubt.

[ATHATH]

Wait, is the Cleric PREPARING Cure Light Wounds spells?

Smack him upside the head- he can spontaneously convert any of his spells into cure spells (unless he traded that ability away with an ACF or a substitution level), so he should be preparing other stuff in them instead.

Color Spray and Detect Magic are NOT useless- Color Spray is one of the best 1st level Wizard spells in the game, and the only Wizard cantrip that I can think of that is more useful (most of the time) than Detect Magic is Prestidigitation. Was the Wizard the friend who had played this adventure before? If so, he's probably preparing Magic Missile to be able to harm a specific monster(s)- ask him.

I'm gonna check my list of Clerical Divination spells to see if there's something that can find your Rogue.

[ATHATH]

Yeah, I don't see anything that can help you find the Rogue... If you summon a creature(s) with Scent with Summon Monster 1, it MIGHT be able to point you in his general direction, but with only a 2 round duration on Summon Monster 1, it can't really do much else to help you find him.

[ATHATH]

I recommend having the Cleric prepare a Protection from Evil spell or two- they'll protect you from any mind-affecting attacks the Succubus (or any creature, even non-Evil ones) might have.

[ATHATH]

Will your DM allow material that isn't from your book list on a case-by-case basis?

[Grand Arbiter]

While I unfortunately do not know enough about optimization to be able to help, I know a bit about Forge of Fury.

Avoiding spoilers, as long as you successfully avoided having the halfling thrown into the chasm, I think you'll be able to rescue him/her without them dying.

[Amlugil]

Thank you Guys! I'm taking notes
(not able to reply at the moment because I'm playing the psychanalyste in the friend-zone with a girl, not so funny but.. whatever)

[Amlugil]

Anyway, while the friend is recording audio for the next 10 minutes or so, at the moment we need to cross that damn bridge.
We have these two orcs that only the dwarf can TRY to hit with his crossbow (darkness and cover, he need a natural 20) while they are shooting at us each round.
Crossing the bridge it's a suicide, I was thinking about using magic light on some stones and throwing these on the other side of the bridge, this way we will be able to see them (if they try to throw the stones into the chasm they will be out of their cover and visible and we could try to cross the bridge anyway... though that would be dangerous).

As soon as we will reach the next level I'll try to "impose" any kind of other book to have the power we need to beat the adventure, I promise.

[Grand Arbiter]

We have these two orcs that only the dwarf can TRY to hit with his crossbow (darkness and cover, he need a natural 20) while they are shooting at us each round.
Crossing the bridge it's a suicide, I was thinking about using magic light on some stones and throwing these on the other side of the bridge
Maybe use the light on the crossbow bolt(s)? The dwarf should either be able to hit one and illuminate them or at least get light to the other side.

[Amlugil]

Maybe use the light on the crossbow bolt(s)? The dwarf should either be able to hit one and illuminate them or at least get light to the other side.

Good one, indeed, though it will be very tough to hit them because of the cover they had!

[Amlugil]

Today is the day, I'll let you know :)
Thank you!

[Zombimode]

Dragon? Roper? Succubus?

Two of those don't need to be fought. In fact I would advise against even trying.

The other one you are supposed to fight against... but as it is typical for encounters with creatures of its kind it punches above its CR when played smart by the DM - which is not hard to do in the area you are likely to Encounter it.

We only managed to kill it because the DM moved the creature into melee range although it had absolutely no rational reason to do so.

[Amlugil]

Today is the day, I'll let you know :)
Thank you!

The story so far.
Lot of arrows and fire from the slots of the fortress, spells against us... we managed to survive and tried to open the door to access the bridge.. Nope, no luck.
First retreat of the day, because we took a lot of damage.
During the second try the mage loaded the spell to break the lock... but he failed (too big the door), in the while we took other damage from the arrows.
Second escape... but 4 orcs stomped on us, the mage the first victim, managed to stay alive (barely).
My paladin and the cleric tried to help him.. but...
The dwarf was hit by a big crit. 33pf of damage. Instant death for him (he had 9 pf at the moment).
I was able to get rid of the other orcs easily and had to run away.

The situation now.
My paladin/crusader is ok.
the thief is kidnapped.
The mage is off (the player will leave us, this was his last session)
the cleric is dead.
So, we plan to create a png to substitute the mage while "the cleric" want to play something more frontline/tanker.
We already rolled the base values, would you help me to profile two low-character profiles? (level two)

The tank:
14-14-12-14-13-12
The healer:
12-11-8-14-11-16

Since the healer will be a png I was thinking to have him with very low strenght, we will focus him on his spell ability and give him the power to turn undead as high as possible (elf? so we can put the 14 value on dex., sum +2 and have a +3 bonus on ranged attacks), though I guess that this is a poor choice since to heal a cleric must be near the fight. But a second line cleric, at this point, will also be acceptable.
Will you give me some advice on these two profiles, please?
We really really really need some help!!!
:)
Thanks!

[emeraldstreak]

I can give you a super optimized character, but what good it would do?

It wont resolve your DM problem.

It wont resolve your teammates poor itemization problem*

* - which was probably compounded by your DM not handing out proper wealth by level.

[Starbuck_II]

Two of those don't need to be fought. In fact I would advise against even trying.

The other one you are supposed to fight against... but as it is typical for encounters with creatures of its kind it punches above its CR when played smart by the DM - which is not hard to do in the area you are likely to Encounter it.

We only managed to kill it because the DM moved the creature into melee range although it had absolutely no rational reason to do so.

Well, the 3.0 version of some of those are actually easier than the 3.5 versions.


In the 3.0 version, the strands don't regenerate for months. Meaning, if you all aim for them, he'll be defenseless, they have low AC and hp compared to his body. He had lower SR, lower Cold Resistance, and a weaker bite attack.

In 3.5, they instant regen each round so it buys you a round, so new tactic needed.
He is weak vs fire, there is much alchemist fire hidden in nearby rooms, so you are provided an alternate weapon. Dangerous as he deals a huge amount of Stat damage.

3.0 Dragon is smaller.

3.0 Succubus only needs a magic weapon to beat DR.

Not related to module:
Honestly, 3.0 had some interesting differences: did you know the Retriever used to have Regeneration? Not in 3.5.
Hezrou's had DR and auto 1/2 damage from all non-magic attacks (enchanted weapons were reduced). Since dragon breath wasn't magic, technically they took 1/2 from that.
Bebilith had Magic Circle (free action, theor choice) at will.



Other idea, find a back entrance in and attack orcs to get back your rogue (easier said than done I know) .

[Amlugil]

Well, the itemization issue... That's another big issue with our DM.
We are poor adventurers.
We finished the previous adventure with less than 180gp for person.
We HAD to spend 130 gp to travel all over the world to reach a place linked to a map that we found in the dungeon (my paladin didn't care... but whatever, he just had to follow the DM instructions).
So, we can't even afford us a damned healing potion.

I know that this could be a vain effort because our death it's just inevitable but... it will help us to die with more dignity, that's why I'm asking.

Thank you :)

[Starbuck_II]

Well, the itemization issue... That's another big issue with our DM.
We are poor adventurers.
We finished the previous adventure with less than 180gp for person.
We HAD to spend 130 gp to travel all over the world to reach a place linked to a map that we found in the dungeon (my paladin didn't care... but whatever, he just had to follow the DM instructions).
So, we can't even afford us a damned healing potion.

I know that this could be a vain effort because our death it's just inevitable but... it will help us to die with more dignity, that's why I'm asking.

Thank you :)

Wait, did you miss much treasure in Sunken Citadel?
Quest Treasure: 125 gp per signal ring per PC (Total means 250 per PC).
How did you get less than minimum?!
Did DM remove this treasure?
Then more treasure:

Then 770+417d10 +2d6 sp, 723+3d10+1d6+13d4 gp, +1 bolt, masterwork dagger, 8 2lb caltrops,
jewelry: ring worth 5 gp, dragon style bracelets gp 15, amulet 10 gp, 5x Jade Figurine 15 gp, siler dwarf flask, Crystal goblet 5 gp, jade figurine 20 gp, 24 fine silverware 1gp, Khundar Parchment woprth 100 gp to dwarves, 2 alchemist fire, Dragon tomb 150 gp, Druid Tomb 150 gp, Sharwyn's spellbook,
Gems: 5x sapphires 5 gp, 6x dragon shaped gem 10 gp, 1d4 gems worth 5 gp, 3 gems 1d4x10 gp, Sapphire 25 gp, 2 statute 30 gp, 3 moonstone ring 20 gp, 2 onyx gem 20 gp, 2 sapphires 50 gp, Sapphire 20, 4 gems 20 gp,
Scrolls (Divine): Command, CLW, ILW, Magic Stone, Faerie Fire, Entangle Slow Poison,
Scroll (Arcane): Magic Armor, Spider Climb, Knock, Pyrotechnics, Melf Acid Arrow,
Wand: Entangle (13 charges)
Magic: Everburning Torch, Everburning Candle, Quaal's Feather Token (Tree), Elixer of Fire Breath, Endure elements Potion (which should be changed to a Resist Fire in 3.5 since Endure Elements doesn't give Resistance), Magic Whistle Nightcaller (worth 3000 gp), Potion CLW, potion Cat's grace, +1 Morningstar, potion Protection from Fire, 3 CLW potions, Shatterspike,

[Amlugil]

Wait, did you miss much treasure in Sunken Citadel?



We spent a LOT of money on healing, since we were really weak against the monster our tactics was something like
Go->hit while being hit a lot harder->run
and repeat, until the enemies where all down, consider the fact that my paladin (2° level) and the cleric (1°) were the only pg able to fight.
The healer of the town (or the DM inside her) was able to sell only two healing potion (all along the adventure, we spent more than one month there but she was unable to give us anything else!!!!!). The mage spent a lot of money for his creature.. and a lot of other money went wasted on cure disease and bedroom to rest.
You've got the picture...

[shaikujin]

Healing potions are very inefficient.

To heal from damage, Crusaders can use
1) Martial Spirit stance (heals you or your allies 2 hp every time you make a successful melee attack) 2) Crusader's Strike (since you have IL 2, it heals 1d6 +2) when needed
If you have not taken them as known maneuvers, ask DM if you can switch.


For out of combat healing, you can attack the ground/trees/bunnies for 0 cost healing. It's cheesy, so clear it with your DM first.


I would suggest the cleric re-roll a druid. At low levels, a riding dog or wolf animal companion is going to be very helpful to soak up damage and deal out damage. Have the druid cast goodberry if he still has slots leftover for the day. They last 1 day per level.

In fact, if you have enough gold, buy a couple of riding dogs (riding dogs costs 150 gp each, war trained ones have no additional costs, so just tell the DM you are buying the war trained ones).

Have them act as tanks to deal and take damage.

If you do not have enough money, buy mules instead (8 gp) and use them to soak up damage. You have good Charisma, so if you have put in some ranks in handle animal, you can train them to constantly guard you. Or train them to attack. Better yet, let the druid train them. 1 mule for each of your 4 party members (to carry their stuff and loot) sounds perfectly reasonable. Don't buy too many, or your DM may ban them later.



Since you already know about the succubus, this won't be much of a spolier -
Learn to be paranoid. When your paladin is outside combat and do not need his standard action for other stuff, activate his detect evil ability. Esp when dealing with NPCs who talks to you.

High chance that your thief is probably just captured and waiting for your rescue. Orcs are sometimes known to capture villagers and like have some sort of adjoining prisoner cave.

[Amlugil]

Anyone interested in how things are going? I love to tell stories, though I can't write in perfect English :)