Invisible critter holding a torch or light spell

[Joe dirt]

My question is would that creature give away its position? Assuming its steathed Or would it just be a mysterious lit area that moves

[BiPolar]

My question is would that creature give away its position? Assuming its steathed Or would it just be a mysterious lit area that moves

The rules on invisibility are bit wonky and basically state (although there will be a lot of discussion about this...) that location is known due to other senses still working. The Invisible state basically just gives disadvantage on attacks by an attacker and gives the invisible one advantage on their attacks. So an invisible creature holding a light would still gain those benefits and not lose anything else.

I'll prepare for the counters to this now :)

[Millstone85]

I'll prepare for the counters to this now :)I got one.


The Invisible state basically just gives disadvantage on attacks by an attacker and gives the invisible one advantage on their attacks.The invisible condition makes you "unseen", except to creatures with truesight or such. One consequence of being an "unseen" attacker or target is the advantage/disadvantage combo you described. But being "unseen" is also a prerequisite for becoming "hidden". An invisible creature can thus attempt to hide even in situations that wouldn't normally allow it, like while standing in the middle of a well lit room. It is not an automatic success but at least you get to try.

Now, there are probably circumstances that would make hiding impossible even for an invisible creature. Like if you have snow up to your waist and are basically digging a trench as you move. I need to think about that torch business.

[BiPolar]

I got one.

The invisible condition makes you "unseen", except to creatures with truesight or such. One consequence of being an "unseen" attacker or target is the advantage/disadvantage combo you described. But being "unseen" is also a prerequisite for becoming "hidden". An invisible creature can thus attempt to hide even in situations that wouldn't normally allow it, like while standing in the middle of a well lit room. It is not an automatic success but at least you get to try.

Now, there are probably circumstances that would make hiding impossible even for an invisible creature. Like if you have snow up to your waist and are basically digging a trench as you move. I need to think about that torch business.

Agreed, hiding would make an invisible person unnoticed. If hidden and holding a torch, I'd say you see a floating torch.

Without hiding, raw seems to be disappointingly just granting advantage/disadvantage.

[BabyCthulhu]

If you turn invisible in a dark room, does the darkness turn invisible too?

[Tetrasodium]

If you turn invisible in a dark room, does the darkness turn invisible too?
I believe it needs to be suitably attacked first

[NNescio]

My question is would that creature give away its position? Assuming its steathed Or would it just be a mysterious lit area that moves

Well, to creatures with low enough passive perception against your Stealth check and no means to see through invisibility, it is basically what it looks like -- a mysterious lit area that moves. Unfortunately this tends to draw attention, so if your enemies suspect there's an invisible creature there, or bumps into you while investigating (lower case) the lit area, well, he can swing (or shoot) at you at disadvantage (since you are still technically "unseen", even if they know you're there).

Now, you can take advantage of this too against paranoid enemies by using spells that create light and move them remotely, like Dancing Lights. Illusions can also work, but there needs to be light there in the first place, since most illusions don't actually create light (but they can create the appearance of a light source, given preexisting light).


I believe it needs to be suitably attacked first

With Magic Missile?

[Millstone85]

If hidden and holding a torch, I'd say you see a floating torch.The "invisible critter" in question is probably an imp, quasit or sprite, and thus "any equipment [I]wears or carries is invisible with it". So you wouldn't see a floating torch, handle and all. But illumination from within an invisibility cloak is some intriguing fantasy optic problem.

I can imagine someone ruling that it works a bit like a one-way mirror. The invisible critter is not blinded, so light must reach its eyes. But no light can go from the critter to another creature's eyes, otherwise the critter wouldn't be invisible. Thus, the light of the torch would be blocked by the invisibility.

Alternatively, invisibility is mostly a mind trick and has little to do with light. In that case, we can get the "mysterious lit area that moves" that was mentioned in the OP.

[BiPolar]

The "invisible critter" in question is probably an imp, quasit or sprite, and thus "any equipment [I]wears or carries is invisible with it". So you wouldn't see a floating torch, handle and all. But illumination from within an invisibility cloak is some intriguing fantasy optic problem.

I can imagine someone ruling that it works a bit like a one-way mirror. The invisible critter is not blinded, so light must reach its eyes. But no light can go from the critter to another creature's eyes, otherwise the critter wouldn't be invisible. Thus, the light of the torch would be blocked by the invisibility.

Alternatively, invisibility is mostly a mind trick and has little to do with light. In that case, we can get the "mysterious lit area that moves" that was mentioned in the OP.

If it is an imp/quasit/sprite, then yes I'd agree. But that without that knowledge I'd say the torch is still visible.

[Biggstick]

I'd be more thinking along the lines of a Mage Hand carrying the light (only 30' of distance from you, but still better then carrying it yourself) or Unseen Servant carrying the light (60' of distance, meaning you can actually be in the darkness behind the torchlight/Light while the invisible servant is further ahead triggering traps for you to see).

The Unseen Servant is actually how I have my Bard or Wizard contribute to scouting ahead if in a dungeon and no one is brave enough to go first. Give ol' Jeeves a torch and have him walk at least 30' in front of us. He'll be triggering traps, lighting the way, and be the first one to die should some nasty creature be waiting around the corner (I'm looking at you Gelatinous Cube, or should I say, not looking at you but through you..).

[tieren]

If the source of the light is invisible so is the light it gives off (ie at a frequency you can't see), therefore there would be no area of illumination from an invisible torch.

(could be cool to treat it as a black light though and reveal hidden runes or something)

[Millstone85]

It might be the time to call for an unusual Dexterity (Deception) check.

The character is pretending to be a floating torch or remote light spell by moving however these would.

[Demonslayer666]

I would rule it that the light is visible, but it would not give away their position other than the obvious light would indicate something strange is happening.

If someone could observe the light for some time, they might deduce that it's someone invisible approaching with a light source.

[DivisibleByZero]

The rules on invisibility are bit wonky and basically state (although there will be a lot of discussion about this...) that location is known due to other senses still working. The Invisible state basically just gives disadvantage on attacks by an attacker and gives the invisible one advantage on their attacks. So an invisible creature holding a light would still gain those benefits and not lose anything else.

I'll prepare for the counters to this now :)

I've seen this argument time and time again, and it is wrong.
You say that you're prepared for the counters. Are you prepared?
Okay, here goes.


Me: Invis: loc can be determined by... Does that mean that it automatically is, or that it's possible in some circumstances?
JC: In the text of the invisible condition, "can be detected" expresses possibility. It isn't automatic. #DnD
https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/786980481652756480

So location is not known due to other senses working. That may be possible depending on the circumstances, but it is by no means absolute like some would have you believe.

[busterswd]

There's two big benefits to invisibility in combat: the forced "blindness" on attackers, and the inability to target a creature without knowing its location (ie: invisibility combined with stealth).

Carrying a big glowing moving object? If a player fires blindly into that square, the invisible creature loses the second benefit.

Without the big glowing object, I'd normally have the players make a perception check, DC determined on how known the creature had made itself.

[Asmotherion]

The rules on invisibility are bit wonky and basically state (although there will be a lot of discussion about this...) that location is known due to other senses still working. The Invisible state basically just gives disadvantage on attacks by an attacker and gives the invisible one advantage on their attacks. So an invisible creature holding a light would still gain those benefits and not lose anything else.

I'll prepare for the counters to this now :)

Actually no. An invisible creature can be detected by a perception (listen) check countesting against a Stealth check. Also, if a creature saw you cast invisibility, they know your last location, and if you move, they logically have advantage on the perception check, as they know were to look for footprints/listening to steping sounds etc. You can further hide yourself, by using the hide action; in this case, the hide action might be more than just actually hiding behind something, and instead, for example, throwing a small rock the oposit way from the location you're going, to fool the one who is activelly looking for you. Now, if someone is not activelly looking for you (ie, did not see you cast the spell), it comes down to passive perception to notice something, and with a DC determined by the DM, which, I would rule as the Invisible creature's Dexterity (Stealth) + 13.

You don't need the rules to tell you everything though, sometimes you just have to improvise; after all, that's the main reason I prefear D&D and tabletop RPGs to Digital ones: Imagination and Creativity is everything.

[BiPolar]

Actually no. An invisible creature can be detected by a perception (listen) check countesting against a Stealth check. Also, if a creature saw you cast invisibility, they know your last location, and if you move, they logically have advantage on the perception check, as they know were to look for footprints/listening to steping sounds etc. You can further hide yourself, by using the hide action; in this case, the hide action might be more than just actually hiding behind something, and instead, for example, throwing a small rock the oposit way from the location you're going, to fool the one who is activelly looking for you. Now, if someone is not activelly looking for you (ie, did not see you cast the spell), it comes down to passive perception to notice something, and with a DC determined by the DM, which, I would rule as the Invisible creature's Dexterity (Stealth) + 13.

You don't need the rules to tell you everything though, sometimes you just have to improvise; after all, that's the main reason I prefear D&D and tabletop RPGs to Digital ones: Imagination and Creativity is everything.

I'm discussing purely RAW, which has no mention of perception vs stealth. I don't disagree with changing it, and we play it differently at my table as well, but the rules state that an invisible creature only gets certain advantages. Taking the Hide action changes the scenario, but just being invisible only gives you advantage on attacks and disadvantage on attacks against you.

[Matticusrex]

RAW people, learn it. Invisibility is not hidden.

[DivisibleByZero]

RAW people, learn it. Invisibility is not hidden.

And not expressly taking the Hide action does not automatically mean that everyone knows where you are by default.
This is why the rules for stealth are left intentionally vague, because DMs are supposed to rules on a case by case basis depending on the circumstances.

[Temperjoke]

My understanding is that while the exact source of the light is invisible, the light itself is not. So a creature carrying a light while invisible would have an aura of light surrounding them, but you still couldn't see the exact spot the light is coming from. In a regular-sized room it wouldn't be a big deal, but if an enemy was trying to target you from a distance in a field at night, they would be able to ballpark guess the center of the light, since they could see the entire aura.

[Joe the Rat]

When this came up in my game, I went with the "source invisible, illumination visible" ruling.

[Dalebert]

since most illusions don't actually create light (but they can create the appearance of a light source, given preexisting light).

Most? Minor Illusion is the only one I know of. That's because it specifically says it can't shed light.