WoD White Wolf? Onyx Path? What's Going On?! [Archive]

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Archpaladin Zousha

2017-03-08, 06:30 PM

Of late I've pondered getting back into games like Vampire and Changeling, which I toyed with briefly about four years ago before Pathfinder came to dominate my gaming library. But...now I'm all confused as to what's been going on with these games lately. It seems White Wolf has become a new company called Onyx Path and is rereleasing or rebooting most of their product library with the "New World of Darkness" being rebranded to "Chronicles of Darkness" with World of Darkness now being strictly the older product lines like Vampire: The Masquerade, and seems to be all PDFs or print-on-demand or something. I've no idea where to get started anymore. It seems that books initially intended to be remixes of Vampire and Werewolf are now full-blown second editions, and soon other games like Changeling will be following suit. What about all their old books, will those be incompatible with these second editions? What about all the lore, how has that changed? As the title of this thread suggests, "What's going on?!" :smalleek:

Morty

2017-03-08, 07:51 PM

It is all fairly confusing. I'll try to unpack some of it.

White Wolf merged with CCP Games. Then a new company named Onyx Path, helmed by some of White Wolf's people, purchased the licenses to White Wolf's old titles. They continue to release both Worlds of Darkness, Exalted, and others. The CofD's chronology goes like this:

Some of the designers want to revise the rules for the new World of Darkness.
They need to release them as "God-Machine Chronicles", "Blood & Smoke: The Strix Chronicles" and so on, due to lack of approval for a new edition.
The success of the "Chronicles" series and the rules revisions they brought leads to their being greenlit as a proper second edition of the New World of Darkness. Every gameline was eventually set to receive a second edition revision.
In 2015, Paradox Interactive purchased White Wolf and all of its properties from CCP. So they're releasing both WoDs, Exalted and other games now. The new World of Darkness was renamed as Chronicles of Darkness, but the development of the gamelines' second edition was to proceed as planned.

So, basically - the New World of Darkness is in the process of being upgraded to a new edition. It was renamed to Chronicles of Darkness to distinguish it from the old World of Darkness, which Paradox seems to be much more interested in. The second editions alter both mechanics and lore of their respective gamelines, to varying degrees. The 1e-era rulebooks might still be useful, depending on the situation. But the new edition is meant to stand on its own feet.

Do correct me if I've mixed anything up there.

Inigo Montoya

2017-03-08, 07:57 PM

As far as the lore goes, each gameline has a very self-contained system of lore. There really isn't any over-arching meta plot.

Archpaladin Zousha

2017-03-08, 08:10 PM

Morty

2017-03-08, 08:23 PM

They do plan to make more WoD videogames now, yes. In fact, I think they're making a Werewolf: the Apocalypse one now. Godspeed, I guess.

The differences depend on the gameline in question. The basic concepts are unchanged - it's the same list of attributes and skills that combine into rolls. For mortal characters, the major changes are to Morality (now Integrity), Virtues and Vices, earning experience, combat and the like. Supernatural splats have more wide-spread changes. Again, the core concepts remain the same, but their execution doesn't. Vampires have the same Disciplines, but they've all been given different capabilities, for instance.

The old books are probably going to be mostly obsolete, unfortunately. I use PDFs, and no one has bothered to release more than four nWoD books in Poland anyway, so I don't know how it works in regards to that.

Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll

2017-03-08, 08:27 PM

OK. So I'm splitting this into three sections. First section is a short history of the publishing of nWoD/CoD, to explain WHY the names keep shifting. The second section is which books belong to which "edition". The third section highlights major differences between editions in general mechanics. If you want, I can go more in depth as to how vampire, mage and werewolf changed between editions specifically. I only know the broad strokes for mage and werewolf, but vampire I know in depth.

Publishing History
So, White Wolf publishes the Old or Classic World of Darkness, being Vampire the Masquerade and that line. I really don't follow that so whatever.

In about 2003 they start publishing the New World of Darkness line, which is Vampire the Requiem and their kin.

In 2006, they merge with CCP Games, the makers of Eve Online, with the intention of making a World of Darkness MMO, which fails. In 2012, CCP/White Wolf announces that they will no longer produce table-top games, to focus on the MMO. The MMO is cancelled in 2014. When the White Wolf tabletop crew are fired, a handful found Onyx Path Publishing, which buys a few White Wolf systems (Trinity and Scion) and licenses the rights to develop World of Darkness games, both Old and New. The IP still belongs to CCP, but any books written after 2012 are written by Onyx Path, not White Wolf.

CCP stops caring about World of Darkness, and becomes a rubber-stamp. Onyx Path, being owned by the old Creative Director of White Wolf, begins experimenting, and the quality of work starts to go up. Onyx Path is still mostly freelance writers, they only keep a handful of full-time staff.

Onyx Path's vision is a new edition of all nWoD books, but CCP won't allow them to call it a new edition, so they make the "God-Machine Chronicles", which starts out as a rules update of the nWoD rules. Their initial vision is a "Chronicles" book for each line, replacing the core book of each line. The only one published is "Blood and Smoke: The Strix Chronicles", which replaces Vampire: the Requiem. It is such a huge commercial hit, despite not being available in storefronts, that Onyx Path gets permission from CCP to call their new stuff "2nd edition".

Onyx Path also does a lot of renewed development for the classic/old World of Darkness lines, including 20th-anniversary new editions of Vampire: the Masquerade, Werewolf: The Apocalypse, and maybe also Mage, casually called V20 and W20 and so on.

Then grand strategy game developer Paradox Interactive buys White Wolf and all of its IP from CCP. Paradox really only cares about the classic world, so Onyx Path continues to be able to have relatively free hand to act as the developers of the new World of Darkness, so long as they rebrand it Chronicles of Darkness, so as to avoid any confusion with Paradox's plans.

Which Book is Which Edition
So, anything after the 2012 creation of Onyx Path is going to be more or less the "modern" version of the game. That includes Vampire 2e, Werewolf 2e, Promethean 2e, and Mage 2e, with Changeling, Hunter, and Geist 2es all in active development. Beast: the Primordial and Demon: the Descent were designed for 2nd edition mechanics from the very beginning. Mummy: the Curse is the major exception, being a line released JUST before the rules update, and the latest book released was just two months ago. Additionally, the Dark Eras book includes historical settings and mechanics for every line, with Vampire and Werewolf being 2nd edition mechanics, I think Mage and Promethean as well, but the other lines are 1st edition mechanics in that book.

In more detail, Mortals have the God Machine Rules Update, a free mechanics-only update that you need the 1st edition rulebook for.
Mortals have the God Machine Chronicle book, which included rules update AND had the God-Machine Chronicle flagship "default" plot. It also needs the 1st edition rulebook for.
Mortals also have the Chronicles of Darkness book, which is a full standealone rulebook. It has several interesting optional systems added on over the God-Machine Chronicle, plus not requiring the 1st edition rulebook.
The Hurt Locker is a Mortals book focused around the theme of "Violence".

Vampire 2e and Blood and Smoke: the Strix Chronicle are the same book, the only difference between the two being an index added to V:tR 2e. It is standealone, not requiring any other book to run.
V:tR 2e is designed to be mostly backwards compatible with Blood Sorcery: Sacraments & Blasphemies. It specifically calls out the Clanbooks as being worth reading, though the mechanics don't work as well, and one or two fluff aspects no longer fit.
Secrets of the Covenants is a new book looking at the Covenants in the same mostly-fiction little-bit-of-mechanics style as the Clanbooks.

Werewolf 2e consists of the core book as well as "The Pack". All other books are 1e, not sure how applicable they still are. Werewolf 2e is standealone.

Mage 2e is only the core-book. It is standealone.

Promethean 2e is only the core book. It is standealone.

Hunter has Mortal Remains, which includes rule updates to 2nd edition mechanics amongst rules and fluff involving Hunters hunting the other splats other than the big 3. It requires Hunter: the Vigil 1e, AND the 1st edition New World of Darkness Core Book.

Demon: the Descent is a 2e core book, and never had a 1e equivalent. Thus, everything in the Demon line is 2e. HOWEVER, it requires a core rulebook, either 1e or 2e, to run. Technically it is designed to require the 1e core rulebook, as it includes within it the God-Machines Rules Update, but you could also run it with the 2e core book (or any of the standealone core books from the other lines) and just ignore the rules update part of the book.

Beast: the Primordial is a fully 2e line, and is standealone.

That I believe is all the books, not counting books in development that haven't been released yet.

Edition Differences

The new edition has a few guiding principles. It seeks to help nWoD/CoD get away from its cWoD influences, in two ways. Early nWoD books were too similar in some ways, and arbitrarily different for no other reason that to be different in others. It also seeks to take out problematic "victorian horror" tropes, notably the linkage between morality and mental illness.

Mechanically, the combat system is streamlined. In 1e nWoD, iirc your weapon damage was added to your dice pool, so mechanically a rocket launcher was a better long-range weapon than a sniper rifle. In 2e, weapon damage is auto-successes added on AFTER your dice pool.

"Morality" has been removed from its straitjacket, in all senses of the word. For one, the terrible link with mental illness is removed, no longer implying that people have schizophrenia because they committed crimes. Secondly, lines no longer all follow the same rules for the "morality" system. Onyx Path began this with their experimentation with the still technically 1e line Mummy, in which the "Morality" stat, "Memory", which began at "1" and the Mummy could increase to discover their past. Mummy also played around with the Power Stat, with Mummies waking up with 10 Sekhem and automatically reducing down to 1 and eventually 0 over time.

Mortal morality is Integrity, a character-specific list of events they would find traumatic, based on a list of questions each player answers, such as "what is the worst thing the character has done", "what is the worst thing they can imagine some one doing", "what is something supernatural they forgot", and stuff like that to generate their own personal "breaking points".
Vampire morality is Humanity, and is strongly linked to how "human" they feel, so things like "watching someone eat food" can be a breaking point for high-Humanity vampires. Werewolf morality is "Harmony", and rather than high be good and low bad, they balance between Human and Spirit ends, with either extreme being bad. Beast morality is Satiety, with either end giving them benefits and drawbacks. Demons have "Cover", which is how good they fit in at their, well, cover identity, and hide from Angels. And so forth.

Conditions and Tilts are a new system of unified effects that can affect your character, replacing an array of previous systems, from Flaws to Derangements, to the specific affects of various powers. Tilts are specifically the short-term combat-related versions of conditions. Conditions can be pemanent disabilities like "Blind", or they can be temporary effects like "Charmed", or "Inspired". Conditions usually consist of an effect, sometimes a duration, sometimes a situation that they will generate experience, and sometimes a situation that will remove the condition, giving experience.
Conditions can be gained from almost anything. Being normally frightened by something may give you the Frightened condition. A spell cast on you might give you the Mezmerized condition. A vampire trying to stay awake too long could gain the Languid condition. Critical Successes and Failures also default to granting conditions, Inspired for a success and Guilty for a failure, as random examples. There are tons of example conditions, but you're encouraged to make your own.

Virtues and Vices have been decoupled from the 7 Cardinal Virtues/Vices. Technically they always have been, if you read the 1e corebook carefully, but all later books assumed you could only use the 7 Cardinals. Now they can be anything you like. They also work differently for each and every line. Vampire, for example, has Mask and Dirge, being the social archetypes they act amongst company and amongst confidantes, respectively.

Aspirations are a new mechanic that are a major way of gaining XP. The players list 3 goals they have for the story, which can be long-term or short-term, and can be goals shared by the characters, or mechanical goals like "gain a new dot", or even negative goals like "lose someone close to me" that the PLAYER wants to see but the CHARACTER would work against. When these come to pass (or, for long-term ones, when significant progress is made towards it), you gain experience. They also guide the ST in building the story.

Critical Failures can now also happen any time a player rolls a failure. Specifically, a player can decide to turn a normal failed roll into a critical failure in exchange for experience.

Technically all XP you gain is really a "beat", with five "beats" being one "Experience", and they have their reasons for doing that, but I think dividing XP into something with a different term is overly complicated. Importantly, there is no "scaling experience" anymore. Buying the fifth dot in something is just as pricey as buying the first dot now.

Whew. That should be most of the changes. I can explain more if you have more specific questions, or maybe explain the theory of philosophy behind some of the changes if you like. As I said earlier, I can also explain the major differences in fluff or mechanics for the various lines if you like.

Oh, and Onyx Path doesn't release any of their books into stores. They are only available on DriveThruRpg.com (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/browse/pub/4261/Onyx-Path-Publishing), which is either buying the PDF, or the Print on Demand, which means they don't actually print the book until you order the book, and then they send it directly to you.

Inigo Montoya

2017-03-08, 08:29 PM

Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll

2017-03-08, 08:37 PM

Upcoming books for CoD, if you're interested, in rough order from least to most finished are Hunter 2e (in First Draft), VtR Half Damned (about Dhampirs, ghouls and revenants, in Redlines), BtP Beast Players Guide and Geist 2e (both in Second Draft), MtAw Signs of Sorcery (about "physical, tangible expressions of magic"), BtP Building a Legend, and Changeling 2e (all in Development), VtR A Thousand Years of Night (about Elders and Methuselahs, in Post-Editing Development), Dark Eras Companion, a kickstartered expansion of Dark Eras in Layout, and BtP Conquering Heroes, about the antagonists from that line, which is processing about to go to press.

So even if there aren't many 2e CoD books right now, there are many in the pipeline.

Oh, technically we're supposed to be calling 1e nWoD lines and books CoD as well instead of nWoD. It seems to have caught on without too much bother, tbh. I think people never really liked having to say nWoD and cWoD anyways, being able to just say CoD vs WoD is a lot easier.

Oh, and there's a sale on pdfs for the next 5 days, so if you're going to buy now is a good time.

Inigo Montoya

2017-03-08, 09:08 PM

The tricky part about saying CoD in my circle of friends is that you'll have people wondering when they added vampires and werewolves to Call of Duty. :smalltongue:

Cluedrew

2017-03-08, 09:31 PM

Its a more tactics based expansion to zombie horde mode.

Anonymouswizard

2017-03-09, 06:56 AM

I believe the official shortening is CofD, but I don't really know anybody who uses that.

Delta

2017-03-09, 07:10 AM

I believe the official shortening is CofD, but I don't really know anybody who uses that.

I've seen it in use on the OP forums. Although I think it's kind of ironically amusing to use CofD instead of CoD because you don't want to get mixed up with CallofDuty ;)

Nerd-o-rama

2017-03-09, 08:10 AM

If you think it's confusing now, wait until CCP uses their Reconquest casus belli against Paradox.

Delta

2017-03-09, 08:36 AM

If you think it's confusing now, wait until CCP uses their Reconquest casus belli against Paradox.

An epic all-out flamewar between the EVE and Paradox Grand Strategy-fandoms could create such a massive concentration of sheer nerd-dom that a Geek Black Hole might form and consume the whole internet in one final, big "lol"

Nerd-o-rama

2017-03-09, 08:40 AM

An epic all-out flamewar between the EVE and Paradox Grand Strategy-fandoms could create such a massive concentration of sheer nerd-dom that a Geek Black Hole might form and consume the whole internet in one final, big "lol"

Watch that be the next 15 dollar Stellaris DLC.

What IS with this video game publishers buying pen and paper rights and then not even making video games of them anyway?

Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll

2017-03-09, 08:44 AM

Another cool thing about the new editions is that every new edition core book has a chapter of example settings around the world that all play with the default assumptions in some way, as well as a chapter introducing your "out-of-context" problem, which forms the basis of an "example chronicle".
Ah darn it, might as well go on to lore differences. Most of it is just clarity, and a stronger thematic emphasis.

For Mortals, the big difference is the addition of the God-Machine example plot, an example mystery based on the "Voice of an Angel" fiction from first edition. Notably, it is an optional example mystery, not the new "truth" of CoD as some were doomsaying when it came out. It's a shared setting with Demon.

For Changeling, the biggest change is to Kith and Seeming. Before, "Seeming" was the broad theme of your character, and "Kith" was a narrowing of that. In 2e, Kith comes first, and it's what your Keeper made you into, and Seeming is added on top of that, and its how you escaped. You can have very different characters with the same Kith and different Seemings. So for example, the Ifrit Kith are Changelings whose keepers turned them into engines of firey destruction. They give examples of how Beast, Elemental, and Ogre Seemings might interact with this. A Beast could be "a jagged bear-like creature made of solid fire with glowing eyes and long burning claws". An Elemental could be "An animate bonfire that looks ready to devour everything around it." An Ogre could have "flames flicker just above shiny hairless skin marked by burn scars". Courts no longer default to the Seasonal Courts, and instead each Freehold has its own Courts unique to the city. The example of my hometown of Toronto has Courts playing on the various immigrant communities that make up the city.

For Mage, all the various "magesight" spells have been combined into a base "magesight" mechanic for the template, not a spell. They rewrote the spellcasting mechanic. Now, you have to use "reach" to upgrade your spells from their basic forms to more advanced spells, lowering casting time, increasing range or duration or area of effect, or making the effect itself more dramatic, or adding extra effects. If you use too much reach, you risk Paradox. No more are some spells arbitrarily Vulgar and some Subtle, now paradox is based on a mage trying to overreach their power and cast too many spells that are too powerful for them.
Mages Wisdom morality stat is based on how careful they are with their magic. It's not based on how 'good' they are. They give the example of a Seer of the Throne who's a murderer, but has high Wisdom because she's careful how she casts her magic.
Atlantis is highly de-emphasized. It only pops up in an appendix, and no longer runs through the entire book presented as "the truth". Likewise, they back off from referring to the Supernal Realms as physical places, and talk about them more as... layers of symbolic truth that overlay the world.
Mages are given more focus, revolving around personal "obsessions" and city-wide "Mysteries", mystical phenomenon that draw mages to study and discover new secrets. This is the over-arching theme of Mage: "Addiction to Mystery".

In Promethean, they added more structure for Milestones, so not ALL the work is done by the ST.

In Werewolf, your pack can now include mortals and wolf-blooded, and spirits, and even stranger beings tied to the Totem. I'm not familiar with how W:tF worked beforehand, but they've narrowed the focus down such that they can summarize every mechanic, every piece of fluff, as coming down to a single phrase; "The Wolf Must Hunt". Tribes are answers to "what do I think the most noble prey is", your Auspice is "how do I contribute to the hunt". A hunt can be to kill a person, a hunt to acquire knowledge, a hunt to stop a building being re-zoned. Additionally, I think Wolf-Blooded now are more like the horror-story werewolves, not in control, as opposed to the fantasy-style werewolves in control of their powers.

Delta

2017-03-09, 08:48 AM

What IS with this video game publishers buying pen and paper rights and then not even making video games of them anyway?

Well for Paradox I think the most basic thing is just seeing what a huge fandom Vampire still has, both as Pen & Paper and as a computer game brand, Vampire: Bloodlines is like a billion years old and still sells well on Steam.

And of course, that company is run by total geeks from the bottom to the very top.

Sian

2017-03-09, 08:57 AM

They do plan to make more WoD videogames now, yes. In fact, I think they're making a Werewolf: the Apocalypse one now. Godspeed, I guess.

There have been a handful of small 'throwaway' games as of yet ... recently (January) they announced (https://www.paradoxinteractive.com/en/white-wolf-partners-with-focus-home-interactive-for-a-video-game-adaptation-of-the-world-of-darkness-storyteller-game-werewolf-the-apocalypse/) that Focus Home Interactive was underway with a Werewolf game for PC and Console, and basicly since they brought the IP, there have been persistent rumours about Obsidian Entertainment (both parties teasing) being drafted to make a spiritual successor to Bloodlines ... with the basic core of the rumour leaning on the fact that both Cain and Boyarsky are working in the company, and are explicitly stated to not be working known current projects.

And of course, that company is run by total geeks from the bottom to the very top.

Paradox interactive can trace their history back to a sub-department of Target Games which made pen'n'paper in the 80s / early 90s

Delta

2017-03-09, 09:01 AM

They already released two interactive fiction games on Steam (one Vampire, one Mage) a couple weeks ago as a "Prologue" for their new projects concerning their "One World of Darkness"

CharonsHelper

2017-03-09, 09:08 AM

I can answer the question you have as far as the books not being in game stores. Even before the move to Onyx Path, WoD (And Exalted) moved to a print on demand system. Your best bet to find the books is to go to DriveThruRPG.com and look under "Onyx Path"

Out of curiosity - does anyone know the business reason for this? I realize that it's more convenient for them - but the cost of printing is far higher - and I'd think that WoD games would still have enough of a following that at least the core books could get onto the shelves of FLGSs.

Even at printing just 500 copies - the cost of printing traditionally is far lower than print on demand. (I think it's about even at 250ish depending upon the specifics of the print job.)

Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll

2017-03-09, 09:13 AM

Vampire had HUGE changes, because it was the most suffering from Being-Compared-To-Masquerade-Syndrome. Vampires all have heightened senses when it comes to blood, and can buy a merit that used to be Auspex 1's power. The Predator's Taint that used to make you freak out whenever you met a new vampire is gone, replaced with the Predator's Aura, an active power that allows you to "lash out" at people and manipulate them, either trying to scare them, to seduce them, or to challenge them. The other big universal change is that there is no Fog of Ages. Vampires remember what happened to them 200 years ago just as well as you do something that happened 20 years ago. That is, you only remember if it was important at the time, you don't remember details, and you probably lie about it anyways.

Clans have had their weaknesses redone. Some are better than others. Daeva are the most thematic; they risk becoming obsessed with people they drink from multiple times. Either they end up with a small herd that they fall in love with, or they are super promiscuous. Mekhet now have an extra Bane that they can't get rid of (see below) instead of extra fire weakness. Ventrue are more likely to lose their Touchstone (see below), instead of being more likely to go mad. Rather, the Ventrue "descent" as it were is modelled as being more likely to lose Humanity quicker than the other clans.

Disciplines: All the powers were rewritten from scratch, and made MUCH more powerful. Auspex's first dot is now shared by all vampires, and auras are gone. Instead, the first dot allows them to ask a question related to immediate danger or weakness, and the second dot allows them to ask a question that is a secret of the person they use it on. "Who here is most afraid" is a first-dot example question, and "What is this person afraid of" is a second-dot example question.
Animalism's first dot combines what used to be its first few dots, and even the FOURTH dot allows you to basically start a riot even amongst humans.
Protean's got a big bump, with the first dot being the old Haven of Soil, second dot being bestial traits like claws or a prehensile tail, third dot being turning into an animal, and fourth dot being taking on unnatural characteristics like wings or barbed hands.
Generally speaking they just upped the power level of the low-dot disciplines.

Humanity, Touchstones, and Banes. So, as I said earlier, Humanity is a measure of how human you FEEL. Breaking points for Humanity are things that remind you of how human you're NOT. If you have high humanity, something like "surviving something that would hospitalize a human" is a breaking point. With low humanity, something like "A decade without human contact" or "Seeing a culture that didn't exist when you were alive" are the only things that are breaking points. There are two ways of avoiding Humanity Loss. Your "Touchstone" is someone, or rarely something or somewhere, that reminds you of who you were as a mortal. Your ex, an old bully, your old boss, or for older vampires, the house you grew up in, the pipe your father smoked, or something similar. Keeping in regular contact with your Touchstone protects you.
When you lose Humanity, you can choose to become immune to whatever it was that caused you to lose Humanity, if instead you take a Bane, a traditional vampire Weakness, like weakness to bells, having to return to you gravesoil, having to be invited into buildings, or similar.

Covenants have had their themes narrowed and better understood. Their also no longer as global and same-y across the world. Some of the example cities share only one or none of the default Covenants. The Invictus, for example, now have a goal beyond power; they are dedicated to keeping mortals ignorant, keeping up the Masquerade. The Sanctified are no longer assumed to include all Abrahamic faiths, and are now properly only Christian. And so on. The way that the Ordo Dracul's powers work has been changed. Blood rituals are no longer short instant spells, but take over 30 minutes to cast.

Plus, the addition of the Strix is fantastic. The back of the book gives a good summary of why; "Your Kindred are the smart, sexy vampires of pop culture, but you are hunted by the Strix -- the grisly, demon-possessed corpses of folklore". Plus, they add so much paranoia and mystery for when your chronicle starts to drag.

As for why PoD, its simple. Onyx Path does not have the infrastructure. They don't have a sales department, nor do they have a warehouse to store physical books in. Almost all their writers are freelance. I think you can count the full-time staff on one hand. Even some of the DEVELOPERS are freelance iirc. They price their books higher to make up for the more expensive printing process.

Delta

2017-03-09, 09:43 AM

Out of curiosity - does anyone know the business reason for this? I realize that it's more convenient for them - but the cost of printing is far higher - and I'd think that WoD games would still have enough of a following that at least the core books could get onto the shelves of FLGSs.

Even at printing just 500 copies - the cost of printing traditionally is far lower than print on demand. (I think it's about even at 250ish depending upon the specifics of the print job.)

The cost of printing per piece is higher, but you only pay that for books which are actually sold.

There's no real secret about that, they've always been quite transparent about the move and the reasons, it's just a question of overhead. To get a book printed the traditional way, you order a print run, then you pay for it, then you sell it. The money to pay for the books needs to come from somewhere, and only after that, you start getting that money back.

Now what happens when a book is late? What happens if one sells weaker than you anticipated?

Now, in a big company, that's not a big problem. If a certain D&D book gets to the printer two months later than expected, that's nothing, Hasbro has so much money going in and out every day that won't make a noticeable dent in anything. Same goes for FFG, with the sheer volume of board games and stuff they're selling, the overhead of printing books isn't a huge factor.

But what if you're Hobby RPG Company, Inc.? Which means, a couple guys (if that, for years, Rich was the only full-time employee of Onyx Path) sitting around and making books to break even and maybe make a modest living. Where does the money to pay for the next print run come from? That's right, from the last book you just sold. But what if that book was late? Then the sales start later as well, money comes in later, which makes it harder to pay for the next book after that. What if one doesn't sell as well as expected? You may hope you'll make it up for on the next book, or maybe sales will pick up come holiday season, but that's nothing you can pay a printer in.

Basically, all those small hobby gaming companies are almost never more than a couple months away from being utterly broke when they print their books "the old way". Print on demand basically makes that overhead go away. You will never pay to have a book printed you don't sell afterwards, and you don't even have to pay for printing it before you actually sell it.

CharonsHelper

2017-03-09, 10:57 AM

Basically, all those small hobby gaming companies are almost never more than a couple months away from being utterly broke when they print their books "the old way". Print on demand basically makes that overhead go away. You will never pay to have a book printed you don't sell afterwards, and you don't even have to pay for printing it before you actually sell it.

So basically they're thinking short-term and have never saved enough money from their glory days to reinvest in their current company.

Got it.

(As someone who works in finance - losing that much margin makes me twitch.)

Delta

2017-03-09, 11:22 AM

So basically they're thinking short-term and have never saved enough money from their glory days to reinvest in their current company.

Got it.

(As someone who works in finance - losing that much margin makes me twitch.)

I'm not sure if the "glory days" were ever as glorious as people imagine them to be. I mean even the people making D&D went broke after all... Making pen & paper RPGs has always been mostly people doing something they love for people who love it as much, you don't do it to get rich.

And how is "knowing the risk involved in doing business and taking precautions to make sure your business stays afloat even if something doesn't work exactly as planned" "thinking short-term"? I think it's quite the opposite, when Rich set up OP, he made sure his company would keep rolling in a situation where other companies had gone under before.

CharonsHelper

2017-03-09, 11:30 AM

I'm not sure if the "glory days" were ever as glorious as people imagine them to be. I mean even the people making D&D went broke after all... Making pen & paper RPGs has always been mostly people doing something they love for people who love it as much, you don't do it to get rich.

True. But with a small market - but the money they'd have to have wouldn't be all that high to print a few thousand copies of each book to get a much healthier margin. (Maaayybe $25k a book.) In addition - I'd guess that they'd be able to break even just selling copies to distributors directly from the printers.

Heck - they still have enough of a fanbase that they could probably just use Kickstarter before each book goes out to pay for the printing costs beforehand - especially if they have a finished book already to show to the camera so that they'll know that there would be zero delays.

Delta

2017-03-09, 11:42 AM

True. But with a small market - but the money they'd have to have wouldn't be all that high to print a few thousand copies of each book to get a much healthier margin. (Maaayybe $25k a book.) In addition - I'd guess that they'd be able to break even just selling copies to distributors directly from the printers.

If it was that easy, they'd be doing it. It doesn't work, the market just isn't large and reliable enough these days.

Heck - they still have enough of a fanbase that they could probably just use Kickstarter before each book goes out to pay for the printing costs beforehand - especially if they have a finished book already to show to the camera so that they'll know that there would be zero delays.

They are doing Kickstarters before most books and the money coming in from that is just enough to pay for developing, printing and shipping those books.

I'm not sure how much time you've spent on this topic, but I've freelanced for one small rpg developer for a while and have known people around the industry (mostly in Germany, obviously), it's really not as easy as you might imagine. From an economics perspective, making rpg books is pretty much dumb (not sure if the profit margins are better for D&D or Pathfinder, but for smaller gamelines, it's really not a lot), you're much better of just selling novels.

CharonsHelper

2017-03-09, 12:06 PM

I'm not sure how much time you've spent on this topic, but I've freelanced for one small rpg developer for a while and have known people around the industry (mostly in Germany, obviously), it's really not as easy as you might imagine. From an economics perspective, making rpg books is pretty much dumb (not sure if the profit margins are better for D&D or Pathfinder, but for smaller gamelines, it's really not a lot), you're much better of just selling novels.

No - I understand that TTRPGs are a miniscule niche market etc. However, it still seems odd to lower one's already small profits even lower by not making a bit of an up-front investment. *shrug*

Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll

2017-03-09, 12:15 PM

They don't have the up-front to hire a whole sales department and warehouse is what I'm saying. They aren't White Wolf. They are a separate company founded by a single ex-white wolf Dev to continue doing what he loves. They had no money from the "glory days" of the 90s because they didn't exist then. CCP had the money from the "glory days" and spent it all trying and failing to make an MMO for 9 years. Onyx Path was a last ditch effort by someone who loved the line to save it at all when those who owned it were happy to let it die.

Cluedrew

2017-03-09, 03:44 PM

To Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll: Thanks for your info posts, they are really good.

Delta

2017-03-09, 04:23 PM

No - I understand that TTRPGs are a miniscule niche market etc. However, it still seems odd to lower one's already small profits even lower by not making a bit of an up-front investment. *shrug*

Because that "bit of an up-front investment" is enough to pull you under, it doesn't seem that odd. And more importantly, you cannot focus only on the price and profit margin per unit, because when going for a classic print run, you pay for the whole printing, no matter how many units you actually say. If you order a 1000, you pay for a 1000, even if you only sell 900. In a market as small and unpredictable as pen & paper, that can be a huge factor.

If you go print on demand and a book sells poorly, you make another one. If you go traditional and it sells poorly, you may well be out of business before you get to make another. Print on demand makes you much more flexible and secure, I really don't get how you can consider this just short-term thinking. Onyx Path has consistently expanded, brought new editions to Exalted, World of Darkness both old and new, they're bringing back Trinity and making a second edition of Scion as well. Sounds like what they're doing is working out fine for them.

LibraryOgre

2017-03-09, 04:38 PM

Palladium is actually a little famous for this problem... they have pallets of stuff sitting around that hasn't sold, so they don't want to move on from it (like putting out a 2nd edition of a 1st edition book, because they still have unsold 1st edition stuff that's 20 years old).

CharonsHelper

2017-03-09, 04:45 PM

I really don't get how you can consider this just short-term thinking. Onyx Path has consistently expanded, brought new editions to Exalted, World of Darkness both old and new, they're bringing back Trinity and making a second edition of Scion as well. Sounds like what they're doing is working out fine for them.

Exactly. POD is the way to go for many total newbies to the industry who don't know if they'll sell more than a couple hundred copies, but Onyx Path has been doing pretty well on sales pretty consistently. Think how much better they'd be doing if they had a higher margin.

Palladium is actually a little famous for this problem... they have pallets of stuff sitting around that hasn't sold, so they don't want to move on from it (like putting out a 2nd edition of a 1st edition book, because they still have unsold 1st edition stuff that's 20 years old).

No doubt. It would definitely be easy to overprint and be stuck with it - especially if you're the kind who refuses to ever cut your losses. (I certainly don't know - but that's the sort of vibe I get from Palladium.) But I've done the #s before comparing POD vs traditional printing - and the break even between the two is surprisingly low. At just 500 copies you're significantly better off going traditional. I just don't think that Onyx Path would have much trouble selling 500+ of nearly every book they come out with.

Delta

2017-03-09, 05:34 PM

Exactly. POD is the way to go for many total newbies to the industry who don't know if they'll sell more than a couple hundred copies, but Onyx Path has been doing pretty well on sales pretty consistently. Think how much better they'd be doing if they had a higher margin.

They'd have been out of business three years ago, most likely. Don't you think that if it would be better for them to go with traditional print runs, they'd be doing it? Rich and the people working with him have been around for a while, they knew how WW had been doing business, they saw it wouldn't work anymore so they changed their business model. You make it sound like they're just clueless idiots who threw away money for no good reason, which to be honest comes off as pretty arrogant in my opinion.

CharonsHelper

2017-03-09, 05:39 PM

They'd have been out of business three years ago, most likely. Don't you think that if it would be better for them to go with traditional print runs, they'd be doing it? Rich and the people working with him have been around for a while, they knew how WW had been doing business, they saw it wouldn't work anymore so they changed their business model. You make it sound like they're just clueless idiots who threw away money for no good reason, which to be honest comes off as pretty arrogant in my opinion.

I did specifically start off with asking why they were doing it by POD. I was curious of any variables which I didn't know about which made the difference. But - based upon what I do know, they'd be much better off going traditional, even with smaller print-runs.

Perhaps they don't want the hassle of working with a printer and it's worth it to them to have a lower margin. Perhaps something else I don't know about. I was just asking - and everyone started telling me that my reasoning was entirely flawed without actually giving any more info. The rest was just me defending my reasoning given the variables that I'm aware of.

And based upon what I see at work (finance) - being foolish with money & costs/fees is the rule, and being efficient is the exception. So - it wouldn't surprise me either way. And even if they were making the more expensive choice - I wouldn't consider them "clueless idiots" unless I'm willing to call the bulk of the populace that. (and I'm not - you can't be an expert on everything) So - please don't put words in my mouth.

Archpaladin Zousha

2017-03-09, 07:14 PM

Wow, this got a lot more complicated than I expected! :smalleek:

Thank you all for the explanations, especially Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll's very detailed coverage. :smallsmile:

Something I've been wondering (especially since you already answered some of the questions I had before I even asked them! :smalltongue: ) is whether to invest in Chronicles of Darkness or World of Darkness. I know the broad strokes of what's different: Chronicles is more about self-contained stories as opposed to World, which has an over-arching meta-plot that culminated in the Time of Judgment books covering the end of the world. World's more structured with the characters being part of world-spanning organizations, where Chronicles is much more focused on the PCs as individual characters in more localized settings, etc. I'm curious as to what the major differences between the two versions are in terms of rules, the nuances in setting, etc. Which do YOU prefer? If I wanted to get into, say, Vampire, but only had enough money to look into either Masquerade or Requiem, which would you recommend?

nyjastul69

2017-03-09, 09:56 PM

Snip... Lotta good stuff...

Warehousing is also a considerable cost for many companies. POD eliminates overhead in a variety of ways. Regardless, POD will define its own significance. If it's a viable path it'll live. If it ain't, it won't.

Delta

2017-03-10, 02:14 AM

Which do YOU prefer? If I wanted to get into, say, Vampire, but only had enough money to look into either Masquerade or Requiem, which would you recommend?

I'd definitely prefer Requiem. It's much better mechanics-wise, and offers a lot more possibilities fluff-wise. Now, that's just a personal opinion, obviously. If you want Masquerade, I'd probably recommend to wait for a while to see what the new White Wolf will do with it.

Delta

2017-03-10, 02:57 AM

I was just asking - and everyone started telling me that my reasoning was entirely flawed without actually giving any more info.

You have been given a lot of information, you've just chosen to ignore it because it doesn't fit your reasoning. If you're in finance, the concept of calculating risk against profit shouldn't be new or unusual for you, yet you seem to completely dismiss the "risk" part as if it didn't matter. A business model that might(!) offer you better profit margins yet puts you in constant, significant risk of going out of business if something goes wrong isn't superior, yet you seem to look only at the profit margin part of that equation. And that's not a hypothetical risk, we have seen it happen quite a few times, gaming companies running into financial troubles and ending up broke with either their licenses, IP or the whole company being bought up by others.

If you really consider it "foolish" trying to make a company run and be profitable in the long run rather than turning a bigger buck now but most likely running out of business within couple years, I really don't know what to say to that.

Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll

2017-03-10, 06:21 AM

Masquerade is punk, raging against a stratified system, with little hope of having actual change or upward mobility. It's also stratified horizontally: your political affiliations are decided by your clan, by your sire. The darkness is primarily external. The world is also presented as different from ours, more outwardly Gothic, with gargoyles hanging off skyscrapers.

Requiem is Goth, as your characters tackle difficult truths about themselves. Requiem makes you ask yourself how different your character really is from before they had to assault people to survive. The Gothic is internal: Southern Gothic, if you will, where the external world is the same as ours. Politically it's more freewheeling, separating "what you are" and "what you believe" more naturally IMHO.

Mechanically WoD has more ways to change the difficulty of a roll: how many dice you roll, what number counts as a success, and how many successes you need, which dice you get to reroll, etc. CoD is simpler, you can never change what number counts as a success, and in almost all situations how many successes you need is one, with the exceptions bring contested rolls and extended actions.

Edit: additionally, CoD rules are consistent across the different CoD games, while I've been told that WoD rules vary more game to game, making crossover harder. Crossover on CoD is still not balanced, but intentionally so. Mages can end you with a thought, their game line is about what their power does to them.

Delta

2017-03-10, 07:00 AM

Edit: additionally, CoD rules are consistent across the different CoD games, while I've been told that WoD rules vary more game to game, making crossover harder. Crossover on CoD is still not balanced, but intentionally so. Mages can end you with a thought, their game line is about what their power does to them.

Yeah, crossover in WoD is difficult, to say the least. The mechanics and powers can differ wildly between splats, and the fluff isn't exactly friendly to it, either, with attitudes towards each other ranging from "kill on sight" to "better never deal with them" to "we don't even know they exist". And the fluff doesn't add up either, it's tough to imagine a world where the Camarilla, Sabbat, Pentex and Technocracy can all exist at the same time as described in the books, there's only so much world conspiracies you can fit in one world.

That's one of the things I hope the new "One World of Darkness" will do better, I feel like crossover is a thing the new WW might take a longer look at.

Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll

2017-03-10, 07:46 AM

CoD has its fluff issues with crossover too. Do the Exarchs control existence, or does the God Machine? Where does Duat fall in the Underworld? Is changeling and mage Arcadia the same place? But those are presented mostly as mysteries to be solved if you do run a crossover with that issue.

Beans

2017-03-10, 08:00 AM

Not sure if it's been said already, but WoD gives more hard answers where CofD likes to leave stuff open. Masquerade tells you the origin of all the clans and pretty much sets things in stone (spoiler alert: CAINE) while Requiem 2e gives a handful of vague, myth-like origin paragraphs for each clan---mainly because the history is not quite as central to the game.

It might be fair to say WoD gives more weight to history?

Delta

2017-03-10, 08:07 AM

It might be fair to say WoD gives more weight to history?

I'm not sure if I'd put it like that, there's a ton of history in CoD as well it's just not quite as "definitive" or "complete", if you will.

But yeah, where WoD is more definitive, CoD is more flexible. WoD tells you how your typical Camarilla domain looks like and tells you "this is how your game is intended to be like", where CoD is more like "you could play like this... or like that... or do something completely different".

Now of course that doesn't mean you have to play WoD any way you like, but CoD feels like it was designed from the ground up to offer more different possibilities, but of course that flexibility also means that the setting is overall less detailed because it needs to leave all that room.

CharonsHelper

2017-03-10, 08:11 AM

You have been given a lot of information, you've just chosen to ignore it because it doesn't fit your reasoning. If you're in finance, the concept of calculating risk against profit shouldn't be new or unusual for you, yet you seem to completely dismiss the "risk" part as if it didn't matter.

The risk of Onyx Path not selling 500+ copies of a given book is pretty negligible.

For some guy with a random game & a dream - it's a high risk. But I don't think that anyone would say that Onyx can't sell 500+ copies, especially if they contact a distributor or two.

Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll

2017-03-10, 08:27 AM

I wouldn't say WoD puts more WEIGHT on history. It treats history as fact, while CoD treats history as interpretation. WoD is "Caine is the father of all vampires", CoD is "man, aren't corpses possessed by Strix oddly similar to revenants? Isn't that weird?" WoD is "this is what happened eons ago". CoD is "here's some evidence as to what happened long ago, what could that mean?".

In 2e, each Clan writeup gives 3-4 different "origins" of the clan, emphasizing different themes. Each clan shares a portion of a fantastically written "Snow White" story, which always begins "Once upon a midnight darkly", and ends "adverbly ever after" depending on the clan, and I love them.

Delta

2017-03-10, 10:58 AM

The risk of Onyx Path not selling 500+ copies of a given book is pretty negligible.

Yes, and if that number held any meaning, maybe you could draw some conclusion from it. But the reality is you just made that number up because it fit your point of view and again ignored everything that didn't, and that's all I'm gonna write on the topic.

GungHo

2017-03-10, 11:48 AM

Out of curiosity - does anyone know the business reason for this? I realize that it's more convenient for them - but the cost of printing is far higher - and I'd think that WoD games would still have enough of a following that at least the core books could get onto the shelves of FLGSs.

Even at printing just 500 copies - the cost of printing traditionally is far lower than print on demand. (I think it's about even at 250ish depending upon the specifics of the print job.)

Carrying inventory can destroy whatever bulk printing savings you may have, especially if the distributors have deals that basically mean that you have to eat the unsold merchandise. They're also at the mercy of the printers being able to handle the bulk requests and get product to the the market soon enough to be relevant. Furthermore, they're dealing with a contracted, niche market with folks who are more than happy to get a PDF to get content sooner over us old bastards that like weight in their hands. Hell, even I have all my novels and comics in my iPad now. It's only game books that I buy in print now.

And based upon what I see at work (finance) - being foolish with money & costs/fees is the rule, and being efficient is the exception. So - it wouldn't surprise me either way. And even if they were making the more expensive choice - I wouldn't consider them "clueless idiots" unless I'm willing to call the bulk of the populace that. (and I'm not - you can't be an expert on everything) So - please don't put words in my mouth.

You keep going back to this finance thing, so what is the industry with which you are familiar? I'm an IT guy, but I also have a cost accounting background. From that perspective, I think publishing books is a hell of a lot different than forging drill bits, picking cherries, or running a big box store. A balance sheet may be a balance sheet, but there are different market forces, different customers, and a different vertical stack, so I don't think I can really go tell Wal-Mart or Onyx Path how to run their business, but if you want to run a drill bit factory, I might be able to pitch in.

Archpaladin Zousha

2017-03-10, 06:47 PM

Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll

2017-03-10, 10:59 PM

Almost, I'd say. All 2nd edition core books except for Demon don't require the Chronicles of Darkness book, so only get Chronicles of Darkness if a) you want to run a mortals game, b) you want to run Demon, or c), you want to try to jury-rig one of the 1st-edition games to 2nd edition.

Mage, Vampire, Werewolf and Promethean, you can all just simply get the one main book for that line and have enough content for multiple games.

Demon technically requires the old New World of Darkness 1st edition rulebook.

Hunter can be run in 2nd edition with the Hunter: the Vigil book, the New World of Darkness 1st edition rulebook, and Mortal Remains.

The others you're either stuck playing 1st edition or jury-rigging to 2nd, which I wouldn't recommend unless you've tried 2nd in play first.

Beans

2017-03-11, 08:57 AM

So it sounds like I should at least get the Chronicles corebook and whatever corebook is for the line I'm looking at, and that there isn't much, if ANY supplementary books to any of the major lines yet. Is that accurate? It sounds like getting both the basic Chronicles Book and the God Machine book would be redundant.
I will note that the 2e books themselves cite the 1e supplements as worth looking at (admittedly, this is probably because they would really like people to still buy those, but I can't blame them for wanting money)---though you don't super need them. It's probably more of a "if you still have those books, don't throw them out, they're still good", so I wouldn't push you to, say, buy up all the 1e VtR Clanbooks.

But what Gwyn said, pretty much---the 2e books basically contain the essential bits of the 2e CofD Core. You also don't need to even bother with the GMC supplement, as that was basically a patch to be stuck on top of the old 1e Core to make it act like 2e.

Elderand

2017-03-11, 11:07 AM

I will note that the 2e books themselves cite the 1e supplements as worth looking at (admittedly, this is probably because they would really like people to still buy those, but I can't blame them for wanting money)---though you don't super need them. It's probably more of a "if you still have those books, don't throw them out, they're still good", so I wouldn't push you to, say, buy up all the 1e VtR Clanbooks.

While the book may say that, any examination of the material for 2ed will show vast a profound changes in the lore/rules that invalidate large swath of 1st edition books. So I wouldn't recommend buying 1st edition books, I'd even recommend ignoring them almost entirely.

Sith_Happens

2017-03-12, 01:50 AM

Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll

2017-03-12, 08:31 AM

Ah right, I always forget about those. Or the Horror rules for making new weird monsters.

Archpaladin Zousha

2017-03-12, 03:01 PM

Is Beast: The Primordial any good? I understand it garnered a bit of controversy during its development...but I'm unsure how much of that is genuine critique and how much is 4chan melodrama.

Beans

2017-03-12, 03:28 PM

Some people like it. From what I've seen, however, there's disagreement about the portrayal of Beasts and Heroes---Beasts as "teaching lessons through fear" comes off to some people in an obnoxious and smug light, and the portrayal of Heroes is... a thing.
One person read something along the lines of "There's something morally reprehensible about how the game co-opts the language of real life bigots and hate groups to describe their Heroes, both in and out of character, but never really goes out of their way to correct them."

4chan melodrama is a thing, certainly---some were annoyed by the inclusion of nonbinary characters in the book---but there are also more reasoned complaints.

Other issues stem from the fact that there were thematic changes between the current product and the Kickstarter draft... and not all the changes were implemented, so relic ideas from the old draft are still lying around, which sometimes means the more rancorous parts of both drafts are involved.

Having looked through it, I personally don't think Beast is great.

Elderand

2017-03-13, 07:27 AM

Beast also has huge issues when it comes to crossover, which it encourages.
The problem is that it goes out of its way to put a bag over logiccal portrayal of other splat, beat them over the head and lock it in a basement to ensure everyone somehow start somewhat liking beasts when the truth is that every splat has logicaly tons of reasons to distrust or outright hate beasts.
They come accross as rather mary sueish.

Beans

2017-03-13, 09:31 AM

Oh yes, I forgot that. Both in and out of universe, Beasts basically just... greasily slide into as many other splats as they can. They can pretend to be most other splats, can feed their hunger by basically going all voyeur on other splats feeding, and are basically able to ensure they have a good chance of other splats liking them at their first impression as long as they act polite.
Except for Demons, pretty much, who are way too cool for this undignified horse-hockey.

lightningcat

2017-03-13, 11:00 AM

I'm personally don't much care for the CoD XP system. Now I don't think it is bad, but it is very easy to forget to give out the beats in play. On the flip side, it is the perfect system for pbp games, and is likely to convert well to a computer game.

Neither Beast nor Demon will be a CoD game I run in the near future. Both of them are too far outside the themes I want to play with, and in different directions. Prometheans are another one that I would be hard pressed to run or play, although that is because I still can't figure out how they operate as a group. It seems to be a 1-on-1 at its heart.

Delta

2017-03-13, 12:28 PM

I honestly don't like the beat system at all, I'd probably just scrap it all and at some point just say "okay everyone gets an advance" and be done with it. I generally never give XP of any kind individually.

Archpaladin Zousha

2017-03-15, 10:57 AM

Welp, I've ordered the Chronicles of Darkness book and the Vampire core book. They should arrive in a couple weeks!

ghanjrho

2017-03-31, 05:08 PM

While the book may say that, any examination of the material for 2ed will show vast a profound changes in the lore/rules that invalidate large swath of 1st edition books. So I wouldn't recommend buying 1st edition books, I'd even recommend ignoring them almost entirely.

Note that they don't blanket encourage you to buy 1e supplements; they recommend specific supplements, ones with a very high fluff:crunch ratio.

Elderand

2017-03-31, 05:43 PM

Note that they don't blanket encourage you to buy 1e supplements; they recommend specific supplements, ones with a very high fluff:crunch ratio.

They recommend the clan books, an anthology and damnation city. That makes 8 books. Of those, 5 are a terrible idea, the clan books.
It's rather sad, but not unexpected, to see that the writer for the game seemingly have no clue as to how much the changes they made to the clans invalidate large swath of the clan books. They would have been vastly better off recomending books about the covenants.

flond

2017-03-31, 10:05 PM

Archpaladin Zousha

2017-04-01, 06:23 PM

They recommend the clan books, an anthology and damnation city. That makes 8 books. Of those, 5 are a terrible idea, the clan books.
It's rather sad, but not unexpected, to see that the writer for the game seemingly have no clue as to how much the changes they made to the clans invalidate large swath of the clan books. They would have been vastly better off recomending books about the covenants.
Could you elaborate, perhaps? :smallconfused:

Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll

2017-04-01, 07:39 PM

Well let's see. Mekhet, Gangrel, and Nosferatu are mostly unchanged. Ventrue are heavily changed from "those who go mad" to "those who lose touch with humanity". So a lot of references to Madness in the Ventrue book is invalidated. And Daeva went from "cant resist following my vices" to "become infatuated with mortals they feed on repeatedly". The Daeva change isn't as hugely prominent in the fluff, but the Ventrue one is. And all 1e fluff has the old predators taint and fog of ages, which aren't things anymore, so anything with that is dated. Overall, having read them recently, they are overall still useful. Tbh, I think the Covenants have changed focus more than the clans have. Even the histories have changed. The Circle especially used to be considered a pagan constant, with any pagan vampires called "Acolytes" even in the Ancient Mysteries books set way in the past. Now it's a more modern creation.

Edit: oh and obviously any crunch for any book needs to be updated. So the crunch heavier books are trickier to use, while fluff ones just require you to remember the handful of major fluff changes i listed above.

Trampaige

2017-04-01, 11:09 PM

strider1276

2017-04-11, 06:06 PM

There was an oWoD demon edition, The Fallen. It is absolutely different lore (actual demons vs matrix style robot angels,) so they're completely different games.

I still want my Demon: the descent PDF for backing the Beast Kickstarter. Did the PDFs ever go out?

Looking back through the KS updates, Rich said in Update #24, Dec 2015 that they would be sending out the core book PDF add-ons with the Beast PoD link. So you should have gotten it then, I would guess.

Any specific questions there (if you didn't get your PDF for whatever reason) should probably go to Rich, through the email on Kickstarter, I would imagine.

DaveBrookshaw

2017-04-12, 10:23 AM

CoD has its fluff issues with crossover too. Do the Exarchs control existence, or does the God Machine?

Why not both?

Where does Duat fall in the Underworld?

It doesn't. It's a Lower Depth. See Dark Eras Companion

Is changeling and mage Arcadia the same place?

No.

But those are presented mostly as mysteries to be solved if you do run a crossover with that issue.

DaveBrookshaw

2017-04-12, 10:28 AM