Improving Witch Bolt

[Bahamut7]

So, I intend to play the Witch Class from the Finger in the future and feel that the class should have Witch Bolt as this is an iconic ability for a Witch...duh. Obviously, I have to agree in that the execution of this ability the spell is lacking past level 5. So I was curious as to what you guys think is the best option to make this spell something for this class. So far, the options I have seen the most have been:

1.) Make the secondary damage scale as well.
2.) Make the spell into a cantrip.
3.) Make the concentration for continuous damage cost your bonus action instead.
4.) Add in CHA mod to the damage.

I am leaning towards making the spell a cantrip and scaling both damage sets appropriately. What do you guys think? Which of the above options are good and should be used (you can pick more than one)? I like the bonus action option as well but don't want to be too greedy.

[DracoKnight]

So, I intend to play the Witch Class from the Finger in the future and feel that the class should have Witch Bolt as this is an iconic ability for a Witch...duh. Obviously, I have to agree in that the execution of this ability the spell is lacking past level 5. So I was curious as to what you guys think is the best option to make this spell something for this class. So far, the options I have seen the most have been:

1.) Make the secondary damage scale as well.
2.) Make the spell into a cantrip.
3.) Make the concentration for continuous damage cost your bonus action instead.
4.) Add in CHA mod to the damage.

I am leaning towards making the spell a cantrip and scaling both damage sets appropriately. What do you guys think? Which of the above options are good and should be used (you can pick more than one)? I like the bonus action option as well but don't want to be too greedy.

Honestly...Hmmmmm...Try this (http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/HJpOMH0cx)! :smallsmile:

[Videkus]

Witch bolt does 1d12 on the first round.
1d12 + 1d10 on the second
1d12 + 1d10 + 1d8 on the 3rd

and so on capping at 1d12 + 1d10 + 1d8 + 1d6 + 1d4.

If you cast the spell at a higher level increase the damage by 1d8 and the maximum range by 5ft for every spell level above 1st.

[Jerrykhor]

Definitely not a cantrip. The description of the spell makes it sounds powerful, its D&D sith lightning!

My suggestion is to buff it severely by adding effects and making the auto damage scale with upcasting. Its ridiculous that a person who is shocked by a sustained arc of lightning can still walk around and fight as normal. Also, the spell has many weaknesses, so making it powerful would balance out the pros and cons. High risk, high reward.

Changes: On a hit, target takes 1d12 lightning damage and is stunned. On each of your turns for the duration, you can use your action to cause 1d12 damage, and the target have to make a Con save and on a success, the target is no longer stunned and cannot be stunned by this spell again. Any creature who attacks the target with a melee attack will take 1d12 lightning damage and be stunned for one round. I added this to prevent this spell to be used in the same way like Hold Person, which is to CC a huge, dangerous target and quickly focus fire it down. Ranged attacks still work as normal (and with advantage as well), so its still good, as it should be since all its weakness still remains.

At higher levels: Both the initial damage and damage per turn increase by 1d12 per level.

So it is now guaranteed to stun for at least 1 round, it scales nicely, making it as powerful as it looks.

[Kane0]

What my group uses:

1st Level Evocation

Casting Time: 1 Action
Range: 30 feet
Components: V, S, M
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 minute

Make a ranged spell attack against one creature you can see within range. On a hit, the target takes 1d12 lightning damage, and on each of your turns for the duration if the target is visible and within range you can use your bonus action to deal 1d12 lightning damage to the target automatically. The spell ends if you do not use this bonus action on your turn.
At Higher Levels: When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 2nd level or higher, the initial and recurring damage increases by 1d12 for each slot above 1st.

[Bahamut7]

All very interesting ideas. I will have to make a catalog of them and see which one my DM is ok with. Thank you.

[Malifice]

So, I intend to play the Witch Class from the Finger in the future and feel that the class should have Witch Bolt as this is an iconic ability for a Witch...duh. Obviously, I have to agree in that the execution of this ability the spell is lacking past level 5. So I was curious as to what you guys think is the best option to make this spell something for this class. So far, the options I have seen the most have been:

1.) Make the secondary damage scale as well.
2.) Make the spell into a cantrip.
3.) Make the concentration for continuous damage cost your bonus action instead.
4.) Add in CHA mod to the damage.

I am leaning towards making the spell a cantrip and scaling both damage sets appropriately. What do you guys think? Which of the above options are good and should be used (you can pick more than one)? I like the bonus action option as well but don't want to be too greedy.

I make the secondary damage scale as well. Im pretty sure that's what was intended in any event.

[DrMartin]

In our game, we house rule that
a) the secondary damage increases as well and
b) the spell ends if the target is outside of the spell range at the end of your turn (allowing you to chase people. Cackling like a maniac while you do it is optional, although encouraged.)

[Giant2005]

I'd just drop the damage to d8 and make it a Cantrip.

[gfishfunk]

My homebrew is to add a slowing feature and deal additional damage if the spellcaster fails a concentration check (immediate 2d6 damage as the spell blow up).

EDT: and increased second / third turn damage, but increased by 1d6 per level.

[retaliation08]

Honestly...Hmmmmm...Try this (http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/HJpOMH0cx)! :smallsmile:

Oh god, as a sea sorcerer this spell would be ridiculously strong. Auto bestowal of Curse of the Sea as a bonus action without using quicken. So tasty.

[DracoKnight]

Oh god, as a sea sorcerer this spell would be ridiculously strong. Auto bestowal of Curse of the Sea as a bonus action without using quicken. So tasty.

I'm not against Sorcerers getting cool toys to play with - contrary to WotC's apparent philosophy :smalltongue:

[Sans.]

Make the target grappled.

[famousringo]

Make the target grappled.

Oh dang, that's a great idea. Give it a medium size limit, so it won't intrude too much on Telekinesis and of course allow the target to break free with an action and Athletics check. But maintaining a grapple at range, with a caster stat, and a little damage on the side is a worthy use of concentration and a slot.

And of course, it ups the Sith fantasy factor.

[BW022]

My homebrew is to add a slowing feature and deal additional damage if the spellcaster fails a concentration check (immediate 2d6 damage as the spell blow up).

EDT: and increased second / third turn damage, but increased by 1d6 per level.

Just the slowing effect is fine. The creature's movement is halved while the spell is in effect.

This would have some combination of likely results:
a) You'll typically get a couple of rounds of damage.
b) You may be able to chase them.
c) They may have issues closing with you.
d) They may have to give up an action to use either the dash action.
e) They may have to accept opportunity attacks to dash away.
f) It is now enough hassle that they just decide to take the damage.

I think this is good enough for a 1st-level spell. It now has uses to keep opponents away from you, to make getting out of melee with another PC really difficult/painful, etc. Movement limiting effects are pretty powerful. You could toss in say gaining advantage on the attack roll if the target is wearing metal armor.

[Demonslayer666]

Some other options as well:


Remove the to hit requirement and allow the bolt to change targets each round.

Remove the super concentration, make it simply a concentration spell, requiring nothing more than concentration to maintain the ongoing damage. (I wouldn't increase ongoing damage with this one)

Increase the range.

[gfishfunk]

Just the slowing effect is fine. The creature's movement is halved while the spell is in effect.

This would have some combination of likely results:
a) You'll typically get a couple of rounds of damage.
b) You may be able to chase them.
c) They may have issues closing with you.
d) They may have to give up an action to use either the dash action.
e) They may have to accept opportunity attacks to dash away.
f) It is now enough hassle that they just decide to take the damage.

I think this is good enough for a 1st-level spell. It now has uses to keep opponents away from you, to make getting out of melee with another PC really difficult/painful, etc. Movement limiting effects are pretty powerful. You could toss in say gaining advantage on the attack roll if the target is wearing metal armor.

My own homebrew allows an option for Warlocks to gain witchbolt (lv1) as an at will ability with this effect, but it drops the effectiveness of Eldritch Blast. It's one or the other: high damage with Eldritch Blast, or control with Witchbolt.

[Arkhios]

I make the secondary damage scale as well. Im pretty sure that's what was intended in any event.

I wouldn't be so sure about that. Searing Smite is similar: first hit deals scaled extra damage on a hit, then 1d6 for every turn until the target saves against the effect.

Edit: Ensnaring Strike -> Searing Smite, which was my intented reference point.

[Asmotherion]

With all due respect, may I ask what the hell is the witch class? :P

Is it a re-flavored Wizard/Warlock/Sorcerer, or a completelly diferent class from a third party developer?

[famousringo]

With all due respect, may I ask what the hell is the witch class? :P

Is it a re-flavored Wizard/Warlock/Sorcerer, or a completelly diferent class from a third party developer?

Witch Class is any small character with Enlarge/Reduce, druids over 8th level, casters with Polymorph, Monks with Slow Fall...

Anybody who can weigh the same as a duck.

[coredump]

Honestly...Hmmmmm...Try this (http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/HJpOMH0cx)! :smallsmile:

That is way over powered.

[Bahamut7]

With all due respect, may I ask what the hell is the witch class? :P

Is it a re-flavored Wizard/Warlock/Sorcerer, or a completelly diferent class from a third party developer?

The Witch class was an official class back in 4e and FingerofVecna recreated a version for 5e.

http://www.middlefingerofvecna.com/2016/09/witch.html

In this version it is more of a different take on the Warlock class...if that.

For those who are worried about the range, Spell Sniper does work with the range of the spell both initially and for followup damage (confirmed by sage advice).

[DracoKnight]

That is way over powered.

Quite possibly, I made it in roughly 30 seconds.

Could you elaborate on why you think it is overpowered? :smallsmile:

[famousringo]

Quite possibly, I made it in roughly 30 seconds.

Could you elaborate on why you think it is overpowered? :smallsmile:

Does more damage than Firebolt. You basically trade a little range for a delayed extra d10 damage, so this cantrip punches a full tier higher than it should. In relative terms it's not bad at high level, because the delayed damage doesn't scale and high level characters have better things to spend bonus actions on, but it's a huge boost at tier 1.

Dropping it down to d8s and shortening the range to 30' would probably bring it in line. Gives the target a clearer choice to either escape the secondary hit, or risk the damage and engage the caster.

[Zalabim]

I wouldn't be so sure about that. Ensnaring Strike is similar: first hit deals scaled extra damage on a hit, then 1d6 for every turn the target is restrained.

Ensnaring Strike is in no way similar. Its damage every turn does scale with the slot level. It does no damage on the hit. Searing Smite does work in a similar way though.

[Arkhios]

Ensnaring Strike is in no way similar. Its damage every turn does scale with the slot level. It does no damage on the hit. Searing Smite does work in a similar way though.

Oops, I mixed those two spells in my mind apparently.

Essentially I meant Searing Smite functions like witch bolt. My bad.
In fact, I'll edit the previous post.

[Theodoxus]

Does more damage than Firebolt. You basically trade a little range for a delayed extra d10 damage, so this cantrip punches a full tier higher than it should. In relative terms it's not bad at high level, because the delayed damage doesn't scale and high level characters have better things to spend bonus actions on, but it's a huge boost at tier 1.

Dropping it down to d8s and shortening the range to 30' would probably bring it in line. Gives the target a clearer choice to either escape the secondary hit, or risk the damage and engage the caster.

Was gonna say, the damage is less by 1 point, the range is doubled... though I'm a little concerned (and this may be because you say you wrote it in 30 seconds) about the duration. With a 1 round duration, you don't get to keep applying the damage as a bonus action... you'd need to make it akin to Witch Bolt, with a duration and maybe concentration...

Honestly, if I were to incorporate these two spells into my games, I'd write them up thusly:

VEXING BOLT
Evocation cantrip
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 30 feet
Components: V, S, M (a twig from a tree that has been struck by lightning)
Duration: 3 rounds
A bolt of crackling blue energy bursts from your fingers toward a creature within range, forming a sustained arc of lightning between you and the target. Make a ranged spell attack against that creature. You have advantage on the attack roll if the target is wearing armor made of metal. On a hit, the target takes 1d8 lightning damage, and on the your next turn you can use your action to deal 1d8 lightning damage to the target automatically. The spell ends if the target moves outside the spell's range or if it has total cover from you.
This spell's initial damage increases by 1d8 when you reach 5th level (2d8), 11th level (3d8), and 17th level (4d8).

WITCH BOLT
1st-level evocation
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 60 feet
Components: V, S, M (a twig from a tree that has been struck by lightning)
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 minute
A beam of crackling, blue energy lances out toward a creature within range, forming a sustained are of lightning between you and the target. Make a ranged spell attack against that creature. You have advantage on the attack roll if the target is wearing armor made of metal. On a hit, the target takes 1d12 lightning damage, and on each of your turns for the duration, you can use your bonus action to deal 1d12 lightning damage to the target automatically. The spell ends if you use your bonus action to do anything else. The spell also ends if the target is ever outside the spell's range or if it has total cover from you.
At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 2nd level or higher, the initial damage increases by 1d12 for each slot level above 1st.

Swapping the ranges on the two spells and the actions used to keep both active rebalances them in relation to each other. Boosting WB to 60' means your target has to dash out of your range, and/or break LOS while doing so.

I figured since we're modding the spells anyway, granting the Lightning rider from Shocking Grasp gave the spells a little niche oomph.

[DracoKnight]

Was gonna say, the damage is less by 1 point, the range is doubled... though I'm a little concerned (and this may be because you say you wrote it in 30 seconds) about the duration. With a 1 round duration, you don't get to keep applying the damage as a bonus action...

Duration 1 round means if everything goes optimally for you, the spell doesn't end until the end of your next turn. At which point you can use your bonus action to apply the damage, followed up with your action to cast it again.

That said, I'm not really going to defend it, but I do want to go back and tinker with it.

[Bahamut7]

Was gonna say, the damage is less by 1 point, the range is doubled... though I'm a little concerned (and this may be because you say you wrote it in 30 seconds) about the duration. With a 1 round duration, you don't get to keep applying the damage as a bonus action... you'd need to make it akin to Witch Bolt, with a duration and maybe concentration...

Honestly, if I were to incorporate these two spells into my games, I'd write them up thusly:

VEXING BOLT
Evocation cantrip
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 30 feet
Components: V, S, M (a twig from a tree that has been struck by lightning)
Duration: 3 rounds
A bolt of crackling blue energy bursts from your fingers toward a creature within range, forming a sustained arc of lightning between you and the target. Make a ranged spell attack against that creature. You have advantage on the attack roll if the target is wearing armor made of metal. On a hit, the target takes 1d8 lightning damage, and on the your next turn you can use your action to deal 1d8 lightning damage to the target automatically. The spell ends if the target moves outside the spell's range or if it has total cover from you.
This spell's initial damage increases by 1d8 when you reach 5th level (2d8), 11th level (3d8), and 17th level (4d8).

WITCH BOLT
1st-level evocation
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 60 feet
Components: V, S, M (a twig from a tree that has been struck by lightning)
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 minute
A beam of crackling, blue energy lances out toward a creature within range, forming a sustained are of lightning between you and the target. Make a ranged spell attack against that creature. You have advantage on the attack roll if the target is wearing armor made of metal. On a hit, the target takes 1d12 lightning damage, and on each of your turns for the duration, you can use your bonus action to deal 1d12 lightning damage to the target automatically. The spell ends if you use your bonus action to do anything else. The spell also ends if the target is ever outside the spell's range or if it has total cover from you.
At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 2nd level or higher, the initial damage increases by 1d12 for each slot level above 1st.

Swapping the ranges on the two spells and the actions used to keep both active rebalances them in relation to each other. Boosting WB to 60' means your target has to dash out of your range, and/or break LOS while doing so.

I figured since we're modding the spells anyway, granting the Lightning rider from Shocking Grasp gave the spells a little niche oomph.

I like it and may ask about these in particular. Very nice. Not to mention these wouldn't require a feat to make them more manageable.

[coredump]

Duration 1 round means if everything goes optimally for you, the spell doesn't end until the end of your next turn. At which point you can use your bonus action to apply the damage, followed up with your action to cast it again.

That said, I'm not really going to defend it, but I do want to go back and tinker with it.

Oops. I will admit I missed the change in duration. I assumed it lasted as long as Witchbolt.

As a cantrip its still overpowered, its basically firebolt with an extra D10 kicked in. There is no reason to ever take firebolt when this is available.

[Spiritchaser]

Make the target grappled.

That is AWESOME